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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:06 AM
Original message
Just another Hillary rant....
On another thread, we were invited to goto Hillary's site and hear from some people who she had helped in the past. I watched several of the testimonials until the thought struck me that shes been a politician for a long while now and why should I be surprised that with all her power she actually had helped a few people? The infomercial-like ramblings of her supporters started to make me nauseous and I left the site wondering.......why doesn't Hillary get it? Its nice that you can find some people who think you did well by them, but I can find millions right here in my home state who think you've done them harm.

Hillary, this is why you can't have my vote.


Cant pull the troops out for 4 yrs?

Did all our planes and boats crash or something? Hillary, do you even give a crap what this war is doing to our troops and our ability to maintain a ready army? Saddam is dead, the wmd never existed and we've already spread all the blackwater "democracy" those poor people in Iraq can stand. Not to mention we are broke and so is all of our equipment. Its time to go home, NOW. How did President Pretzel get his authority for his war, ah yes I remember now, it was from senators like you, Hillary. How is it that I as a regular citizen knew what a load of BS this war was but you couldn't figure that out as a senator? Will you ever bother to explain that? I do remember you trying to explain it once by saying you gave him the authority because you thought he wouldn't use it. That just replaces one lie with another IMHO because once again, if I knew he was going to attack then certainly you knew. Why not just do what Edwards and others have done and say "It was a mistake, sorry."? Is it pride? Will your administration be just like the last one; never admitting a mistake even in the face of appearing insane? Sure looks that way and extending the war for another 4 yrs is a mistake we cant afford.

Outsourcing? Free Trade?

Hillary, you love it and want to see more? If someone had told me 20 yrs ago that one day the dems would seriously consider running for president someone who was openly for outsourcing, I would have thought they were nuts. Whenever I ask on DU or any other progressive site how anyone who calls themselves a dem could possibly be for outsourcing, I never get an answer. Thats because there is no justification for exporting all of our good paying jobs overseas. What could possibly make America weaker any faster? I mean, besides the war and the 5 trillion in debt we just wracked up in 6 yrs. Not only does outsourcing destroy lives here, but they usually build their new plants in places where they can do evil to the local population on the down low and on the cheap. Evil on top of evil. This issue is a show-stopper for me because Just like the Iraq war it goes to that idea of not sacrificing lives for profit. When "the mill" closes in a town, the ripple effect is dramatic and devastating and almost immediate. Things get hard for every working stiff. How can a real dem not know outsourcing for the evil it is?
I didn't major in economics, but my math tells me running huge trade deficits combined with free trade can bankrupt a country fast. If we are going to run massive trade deficits, don't we need something to balance out the fact that the trade itself is making us poorer as a country every year? As we get poorer, wouldn't the value of our currency drop, especially as we borrow and spend like drunken sailors? Do rich people like yourself even notice things like our currency shedding 40% of its value?

Torture?

Hillary, you were for torture and then weren't? That kind of stuff scares the shit out of me. Once again, what dem doesn't know torture is wrong? Are there alot of them? Is it unreasonable for me to think that around the time my country actually needs a debate on whether it should torture or not, that might be the same time I want to consider getting my kids out of this insane asylum? I thought imperial wars made me ashamed for my country but then the torture thing came along and showed me real shame. Not only will we bomb you and yours to dust for the most bogus reasons, but if we catch you alive we'll torture you. WTFG Uncle Sam. Hillary, since you have "clarified" yourself, I don't know what to think except that some things in life shouldn't require that much thought. Torture is always wrong.

Lobbyists

So lobbyists are people too huh? What I don't like seeing is a democrat who will get downright ornery in support of lobbyists but cant muster the same devotion to the American worker or soldier. You and Bill have taken gobs of corporate cash over the last 15 yrs. Why on earth should I believe you have my back when there are millions and millions of little paper reasons you need to have your donor's backs? In other words, what are your corporate donors expecting for their money? Corporations generally don't invest money in something unless they are going to make a profit. What profit will these corps make from your actions once in office? Do you not understand how these donations scare your base away from you or is your base not us? Will there be a difference in how the lobbyist for the "Grandmas with Gout" group and the lobbyist from G.E. will be treated? Will it be the kind of difference a dem would like? The current crop of dems AND reps always seems to hit a grand slam for their donors but when they're batting for the common person you people always bunt. Do you think we haven't noticed?

Your crummy campaign team

Who picked these losers? With all that cash to spend on advisor's I would think you would be way ahead. I'll give you some free campaign advice: dems are supposed to be for the working people and reps are for the corps and the rich. Running as the corporatist candidate in the dem primary just isn't that bright a strategy move. Even the reps are smart enough to talk a good game before they completely sell out and rob their constituents. Primaries are supposed to be a time when the progressive base gets some lip service and then in the GE everyone understands that you have to be more moderate sounding. Fire the guy who told you that your base wont be needed in the GE.


Breaking bread with Murdoch.

When his company bought the paper my wife worked at, they shit-canned her job almost immediately. They told her it was a "buy-out". Thats what they call it when they obey the "plant closing law" and give you the severance pay the law demands. She was also entitled to unemployment benefits and since it was early 2002 and the economy was in the crapper they had been raised to 52 weeks. It was all written up what she would get and all looked official. She got exactly two weeks of the benefits and then they stopped and the state is still, 5 yrs later, trying to get back the 800 bucks she got. I called to ask them WTF and was told by the not so nice lady from the state that its basically the company who pays the benefits and not them and in fact her former employer was the only one who could dispute the benefits. They had. Tribune Co's argument was that since they had to obey the plant closing law, they didn't have to pay the benefits even though the law clearly says otherwise and that was exactly how it had worked for the last group of people they layed off a few yrs before. Silly me, I thought, surely this kind of BS wont stand up and she'll eventually get the money but that just never happened. The state blames Newsday, even after they were shown her paperwork. The amount she was screwed out of was about 20,000 dollars. Keep in mind my wife's only job she had ever had, starting at 18 yrs of age, was this job and she was 35. So the 100 or so people they shit-canned never got there benes and TRB stock prolly went up .000002 cents for all the people they hurt. We made alot of noise and wrote alot of letters but the sign in the govt window has been FU for a long time now. The moral of the story is: you can pay unemployment taxes for 17 yrs while working the same job and still get no unemployment when some greedy ceo decides to can your job. Especially if your senator is Hillary.


But ok. Lets assume I could forget that whole episode with Murdoch and my wife's job.

Do I have to forget endless war, torture, outsourcing, free trade and lobbyists too? Is that how "moderate" we've become? If the choice is for you Hillary, or any other rep, I'll stay home. I wish you would come back to the progressive fold and stop playing with the dirty money and the dickheads over in corporate-ville but I just don't see it happening. Fire whoever came up with "the Hilla-coptor" and anyone who tells you we are dumb enough to fall for another corporate emperor just because shes named Clinton. Start channeling some FDR fast and stop attacking other dems, even if they are attacking you. Every minute of airtime you get should be spent talking populist and showing people how tough you will be on corporate greed. Never say the words "bi-partisan commission" again. Stop talking in vagaries and start talking specifics. Stop talking about your experience. Every person running is experienced and it makes you sound insecure. Spread the word amongst your supporters that arrogance and condescension wont win votes. Never forget that the only couple in our party looking to relive the 90's is you and Bill right now. The rest of us got nafta and lost congress for 12 yrs.

Finally, never ever forget that many of us are so demoralized by our own party's behavior that we consider 4 more yrs of hell to be a small price to pay if it gets us a chance for a real progressive and thus real change. Bush with tits isn't going to cut it. Eventually things will get so bad that even the dimmest bulbs in the room will see which direction we need to go. Stop being one of those bulbs.

To my friends at DU: sorry for the long post. I've needed to get that off my chest for a long while now. I don't entertain much hope that either Hillary or her supporters will change but you never know. If Hillary wins the nom we are truly screwn.
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EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. After seeing where she will use George HW Bush as an ambassador,
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 08:10 AM by EV_Ares
we do not want Hillary in office.

K&R.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Oh C'mon! Poppy Bush Is A Better Rep For The US Than, Say, Jimmy Carter.
You don't want the Clintons to lose their place at the Bush's table, do you? Or are you one of those Hillary Haters I've read about?
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EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Just want a candidate that will bring us some chkange from what we
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 08:49 AM by EV_Ares
have had in DC for too long.

My take on her candidacy, I would prefer any of the other dem candidates over her. Not a hater though.


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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Actually, I Was Being Sarcastic - I Should Have Used The Icon
My sense of humor is too dry, sorry.
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EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. No, probably not Manny, just in a hurry this morning and moving too
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 08:51 AM by EV_Ares
fast to get out of here for some work, scanning too fast.

My apologies and forgive me for not reading more closely. Changed my write for you.

Good wit, I just need to slow down on my reading.

Thanks for letting me know too & have a good day.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
28. Riiiight! Jimmy Carter has
way too much class for the bfee wannabees.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. And colin powell..don't
forget she wants to send colin around, too. What's next? babs bush as the ambassador to Iraq where her beautiful mind couldn't take reality?
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. Hillary does NOT represent change.
The way she has run her campaign has been increasingly unprofessional.

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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. Who in the hell cares about YOUR vote
closed minded, evil, hate filled people are the only ones who are against Hillary. They have been brainwashed by the republicans for 20 years. They do not have the ability to think for themselves. They let the republicans do their thinking for them. They let the evil the republicans spewed about Hillary seep into their minds and their souls.

They support the empty dancing humping candidates who want to be American Idol candidates. Who want you to "phone home your ET" vote. They bus students from other states to Iowa so they think they can get an advantage. Republican tatics but what else can we expect from those type of candidates. Kind of reminds you of the old republican ways don't it. Yes sir ree....sure does.

And then they spew and they spew about Hillary in anything she does. They are really becoming a joke. See where the tide is surging down down down again for this candidate.
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EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Oh talking about closed minded, evil hate filled people as you do and
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 08:22 AM by EV_Ares
then read your post.

So who cares if you want to continue the Bush power grab.

A lot of people do.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. "Who in the hell cares about YOUR vote?"
WOW!
Just WOW!

This is just one of the things that disturb me about Hillary's campaign and her "supporters".

Hillary is the most conservative of all our candidates, and easily the most divisive.
Millions of Americans have promised that they absolutely will NOT vote for Hillary under ANY circumstances. A percentage of Democrats (even some on DU) have promised the same.
NONE of the other candidates have had the same depth of opposition, though I suspect that some will never vote for Obama becuase of closeted (or open) bigotry.

The point is that a Hillary nomination will throw away millions of voters (AntiWAR Democrats and Independents) who would otherwise vote "Democratic".

Why take the risk? :shrug:
There are plenty of other good Democratic candidates.

"Who in the hell cares about YOUR vote?"
Indeed. Represenative.
Way to influence potential voters.
Way to NOT win elections.

I don't suppose you would care to address any of the isssues presented in the OP?



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. Wow.There was nothing "hate filled' about the OP.He has been"hurt" by
elenemts associated with this candidate amd has the right to express his opposition.Reactions such as yours, if they mirror the Climton Campaign, are the reasom she doesn't deserve the votes of many people in like circumstance.Apparemtly she doesn't want them.Well, good, because it looks like she won't be gettimg them, not with this arrogance.
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thank you saracat
I always read your posts because you are one of the greats here. I'm pretty sure this is the only thread I've started in 3.5 yrs on DU and your post hits the nail on the head. I was hurt by her and corporatists like her and I really don't want 4 or 8 yrs more of these people. Why should I vote for someone who can't seem to see how hard the working class is struggling to avoid poverty?

If Hillary lived my life she'd be running on a different platform. In fact, her life and my life are so far apart I'm going to need her to say the right things before she can have my vote. I don't mind if she gets a sudden "revelation" or "change of heart". Just please start saying the right things Hillary or you cant have my vote.

IMHO If she doesn't tone down the DLC crap and tack left we are going to lose if she gets the nod.
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. Thank you, Chelsea Clinton, for your rant.
It's been a pleasure!
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
45. I was thinking it might be Hil herself....
no profile, and all, and far too many posts to number that I can't seem to make any sense of at all, all in defense of HRC (I think - they don't make all that much sense).

Chelsea seems like a nice girl, but you never know ...does she drink?
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
32. That's a pretty incoherent, rage-filled screed right there. But what is a "humping" candidate?
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
46. Shit now I find out I'm a "close minded, evil, hate filled people.
All the open minded, nice people support Hillary. And NOW I discover I've been brainwashed by the republicans for 20 years and don't have the ability to think for myself. I just never knew.

And I guess I also support the "empty dancing humping candidates" - who knew? I'm not even sure who they are.

Tomorrow I call a therapist - I want to be right with the world - I want to learn how to support HRC and not be so evil - or....well maybe I'll wait until after November '08 to call the therapist, but I do think SOMEONE needs a therapist....

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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
54. Bitwit, since I know you never reply to any post anyways
I'm a "closed minded, evil, hateful" person because I don't support Hillary? Wow how, progressive.

I can tell you right now, I'm a strong independent woman, and no, I don't support Hillary in the primary, but I'm not close minded or evil or hateful.

BTW, considering you just called anyone that doesn't support Hillary nasty names, I think you need to look over who's close minded and hateful, because it sure ain't me. Or you at least need to overlook your talking points for today, because I think you're waaaay off base.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. as i tell him every day
i wish i could recommend every one of his posts. :rofl:
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
56. please, i'm begging you
make this its own thread. it deserve Greatest status. :patriot:
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groovedaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
5. It's sad when so many of todays Dem Representation is to the right of Nixon!
It just goes to show how bad things have gotten. The real Dems, like Kucinich, are marginalized by the media precisely because they are REAL DEMS. That needs to change.
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
33. I wanted Kooch soooooo badly
Gravel, Biden, Richardson, Dodd..... all good people who seem to want to help us working stiffs. The powers that be have given us a 3-way choice though and the guy talking the right talk is Edwards so I'm for him. Gobama is a close 2nd and if he gets the nom instead I'll work just as hard.

Anyone asking me for my vote or to send money or knock on doors or make phone calls for SHillary's campaign just doesn't understand the plight of the working class or the disabled. My ex just had to move back in with me and my gf because there are no jobs. I've got a 7 yr old and a 12 yr old and what do I say to them when they are old enough to realize that getting good grades and playing by the rules doesn't mean shit in America anymore and that they cant afford to goto college? The 5 of us are living on my disability check and there wont be any Lexus or blood diamonds under the tree this year just as there wasn't last year or the year before , etc.

About the best this country will be able to offer my oldest kid in a few yrs is a rifle. AS IF I would EVER let my kids waste their lives fighting for this shithole of a country so some oil company can make a few bucks more a share. Somewhere along the line between the "greatest" generation and the Boomers someone dropped the ball and left us Gen X-ers and Gen Y-ers holding the bag for their wild ass spending of our future. So we get to pay back the 10 trillion of debt and watch our kids suffer through a life of saying "would you like fries with that" or "paper or plastic" or "welcome to slave-mart" and the powers that be cant see how ugly things will get at that point?

Its high time us Gen X-ers lit our torches and grabbed our pitchforks and stormed the damn castles of the rich and powerful. Off with their goddamn heads I say!
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
8. It would be nice if that of which you accuse her was sourced.
But, I guess DU is now a board where hostile rants against one of our own candidates, offered without any credible sourcing, is the norm.

I can't wait for the primaries to be over.


MKJ
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. You "source news"
What this is , is opinion. 99% of which is common knowlege. Since when do people have to source their own opinion?

Jeeeez!
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EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Evidently, you did not even read his post. He researched and wrote
his opinion on the subject. If you post fact, news, you then source, how do you source your own opinion?
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. About facts - I couldn't read the whole thing but did take note of the
comments about his wife's unemployment payments.

First of all, it is mostly a state program and has little to do with the federal government. Therefore Hillary could not fix it.

Secondly, employees don't generally (at least not in the states I have lived in) contribute to the unemployment fund. In other words there are no payroll deductions from employees. It is funded by employer contributions only.

Minor facts but why worry - just blame Hillary. Damn! She is in charge of all the world's public policy - no one told me.
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EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Thanks Durham for catching that. No, she should not be blamed for
something beyond what she can control. I think overall he did a good job on his opinion, there could be some minor facts wrong as you caught with a lengthy piece like this.
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. wow, way to miss the point!
She was entitled to the benefits and didn't get them. Hillary was my senator at the time. The state blamed the company and the company blamed the state and both of them got to chuckle at the working people who actually expected these people to follow the law. Hillary may not of been able to fix that but she likes to break bread with the guy who screwed us in the first place.

I added that personal story at the end of my op but I did ask the reader to assume I could forget my personal grudge and rebuke some of my other criticisms of her and corporatism in general.

"Damn! She is in charge of all the world's public policy - no one told me."

She's running for leader of the free world. Chief executive, the big cheese, head honcho, numero uno. The person who wins this election can do alot of good for those of us who are struggling or they can sink us and perhaps the whole country at the same time. If you are not struggling maybe it seems to you that other issues are more important and if you feel Hillary is better on those issues then by all means support her.

Clinton people need to show us working stiffs whats in it for us or she wont win the GE even if all her corporate money can buy her the nom. Clinton can still get my vote in the GE if she changed her views a bit now and started talking about things I care about. Half-assed health care is nice but I'm going to get that from every dem running and the dem I'll trust least on that issue will be the one who took the most money from big pharma and the insurance cos. Do we need to guess who that was?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. It's the OP's Opinion..why
are you trying to distract from the beautifully written post?
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
37. What part of what I'm "accusing" her of do you need clarification on?
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 06:51 PM by Yuugal
Do you not think she met with Murdoch? Am I wrong about Murdoch's involvement with Tribune Co? Do you think they talked about the weather or cut a deal? Did you miss the debate video of her angrily defending lobbyists? Did the video of her extolling the virtues of outsourcing that were posted right on this site escape your attention? If you need to see videos where Hillary is praising free trade and nafta, once again I refer you to the many I've seen right on DU. Did Hillary not say she wants war until 2013 and troops possibly there even longer? Did she not also vote for IWR and then botch the apology? Did she not imply she would torture in an "emergency" and then "clarify" herself?

The reason I titled the thread "Just another Hillary rant" was so that her supporters wouldn't be tricked into reading something they didn't want to.

"I can't wait for the primaries to be over."

Me either. Quite frankly I give up on both the party and the country if the best we can do in 2008, in an election that is a perfect storm for the other party, is to go for the corporatist candidate and more of the same toxic BS that has been ruining our country my whole adult life. Even the reps don't want to be reps this time around but Hillary does? Aren't we still the workers party? How many times does the dem party have to screw up a sure thing before I become suspicious about who they really serve?

There are 100 people in a room and 100 yummy muffins on the table. The rich guy comes up and takes 50 of them for himself. A couple of his friends grab 5-10 each. The rest of us 90+ people are staring at the remaining 20-30 muffins and getting angry. I understand that the other side thinks the guy who grabbed 50 muffins for himself is someone to emulate, they're stupid like that. What's our excuse?
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. You may or may not intend to sound condescending. I don't need the ramifications of the control of
the IMF on our, and the global, economy explained.

If your resentment and anger towards Sen Clinton is that all consuming, then my asking for sources of her saying the troops will stay for four years or saying she loves free trade is probably pointless.


MKJ
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. I guess if you were the only other person on DU,
Edited on Wed Dec-19-07 02:14 AM by Yuugal
your 2nd sentence would make sense. Nevertheless, my post was intended to vent my feelings and was clearly titled as a rant. I presented my opinion. If you would like to change it, accept that I am angry about war mongering corporatists and try to explain to me why Hillary isn't one.

"If your resentment and anger towards Sen Clinton is that all consuming, then my asking for sources of her saying the troops will stay for four years or saying she loves free trade is probably pointless."

Good thing I'm the condescending one. :) I take it you want me to provide a link to the leaving iraq in 2013 thing and loving free trade. It is 10:52 pm est, I'll start digging.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/10/5887/

Ah, "Hillary as Hawk" The six zillion articles like this I've read from the usual progressive sites over the last few years about Hillary might be a vast, left wing conspiracy to paint her as a war monger. Read some of the comments from that op. Damn, there's some angry dems about these days. I've got time tonight....let me dig for something real specific.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dasUm65vrFA

Sigh. Missed the mark again but I must be getting warmer. Yeah , she lied her ass off that night and her true authoritarian colors came out as she administered the smackdown to those ladies. Be sure to read the "about this video" comment as well as some of the comments posted by other viewers. Non-rich people don't like war mongers, huh? Love the soundtrack: Henry Rollins belting out "Liar"..........."I'll turn you into me, I'll turn you into me, cause I'm a liar a liar a liar ohhhhhh yeah!"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0FwdNLlC9PM

Yikes, what a bald faced liar. Sheesh, wonder if the poster could use that Rollins song again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0aHpCPHP0Q&feature=related

Ok, now we are getting warmer. This vid from march of this year has Keith Olberman saying she told the New York Times there are going to be troops staying in Iraq.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDq1MV6f8c0&feature=related

Oh Gawd, its Tucker! I'm surprised to hear him be right for once. What she said in march and what she said in july just don't jibe with each other. You can't pull out all the troops except for the ones you are leaving there. The word all, implies, well, everyone right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvuzMWcz0kU

Wow, Hillary in front of AIPAC, now thats just fucking scary. No option off the table huh. Guess nuclear winter would cancel out global warming? "Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran!" Sing it Hillary! "Huh, what? Iran stopped their program in 2003? Oopsies." Way to inspire confidence in that "foreign policy" experience we've heard so much about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgiymS8pVGk&feature=related

Yeah. "We cant be fighting the last war, we have to be preparing to fight the next one" Good call for you rich people Hillary. Keep us working stiffs paying and dying for your endless wars while you and all your rich friends soak up the money and power. Awesome plan, except I'm not rich and I'm onto you and you're not getting my vote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3gQfz8GC0o&feature=related

I love debates. Especially ones with Gravel in them. Thanks for laying the whoop-ass down on Hillary, friend. I guess the US's xmas present to its corporates parasites was going to be Iran until some crumbun decided to get even for something and leaked that report about Iran. Sorry warmongers, please insert another quarter. <--- Condescension alert.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvzyq0Og6SA

Holy crap, Obama wants to keep troops there forever also to man those bases we built.


Sheesh, its 12:06 and I feel like I'm going in circles. Since the DU search engine failed me or I failed it, and You-tube is getting boring, I'm going google.

Shoulda went there first. Bingo was his name-o.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/15/washington/15clinton.html?pagewanted=print

By MICHAEL R. GORDON and PATRICK HEALY
WASHINGTON, March 14 — Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton foresees a “remaining military as well as political mission” in Iraq, and says that if elected president, she would keep a reduced military force there to fight Al Qaeda, deter Iranian aggression, protect the Kurds and possibly support the Iraqi military.

In a half-hour interview on Tuesday in her Senate office, Mrs. Clinton said the scaled-down American military force that she would maintain would stay off the streets in Baghdad and would no longer try to protect Iraqis from sectarian violence — even if it descended into ethnic cleansing.

In outlining how she would handle Iraq as commander in chief, Mrs. Clinton articulated a more nuanced position than the one she has provided at her campaign events, where she has backed the goal of “bringing the troops home.”

She said in the interview that there were “remaining vital national security interests in Iraq” that would require a continuing deployment of American troops.

The United States’ security would be undermined if parts of Iraq turned into a failed state “that serves as a petri dish for insurgents and Al Qaeda,” she said. “It is right in the heart of the oil region,” she said. “It is directly in opposition to our interests, to the interests of regimes, to Israel’s interests.”


Silly, silly me. I still remember hearing or seeing 2013 somewhere, but since forever is longer than 2013, and I've even thrown in Obama saying the same thing, will you concede the point? Endless war is the order of the day.

12:20 am and its onto Hillary luvin her some free trade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBypp2hqxaQ

"Hillary Clinton Laughs About NAFTA" Yuk it up lady. All you remember after Nafta was some charts huh? Except your not that dumb so I believe you know a whole lot about Nafta. Lets see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNLnBnTuxvU&feature=related

"NAFTA: Ten Years of Broken Promises" Grrrr. makes me angry. If you are going to watch anything in this post, watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8PJ2KT0RVI&feature=related

ABC News Coverage of 'The Great NAFTA Debate,' 1993 You go Al., uh, nevermind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P23l6uyDVsc&feature=related

"Opening of 2nd Presidential Debate 1992" Yeah, that Perot, what a freaking psychic huh? Pay attention to Clinton's answer about Nafta because he never did anything he said. He just got it passed and let the chips fall where they may. Union people like me were silly to believe him. Most of us have never forgotten who sold us down the river. I did forget he lied about it in 92 to get elected. So much for fair trade. Since it was a "2 for 1" election, their words not mine, I think Hillary bears some blame here or at least your agreement that she had heard of nafta.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhLBSLLIhUs

"Hillary Clinton Pushes For More H1B Visas and OutSourcing" Yeah, lets give away the whole goddam store! Mr Dobbs, you rock my world nightly and I think I love you.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOW0cUaGWZU&feature=related

"Hillary Clinton reaffirms support for more H-1B visas" Wow, what a load of crap. Hillary, maybe more Americans would get trained to do high tech jobs if you stopped giving foreigners those jobs? "We need to continue to draw the best and brightest to our shores." Let me translate that in Newspeak for you. Foreigners work for less so your kid wasn't getting that good job anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvD2j3nG-0M&feature=related

"Lou Dobbs -- Hillary's Hypocrisy: Part 2" Lou Dobbs, "it has to be heart-breaking for alot of Americans" Yeah, sure is Lou, thats why if my party goes for Hillary, I'm going independent. I have not forgotten who pushed nafta on us and I never will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HxGAymz6ek&feature=related

"The Changing Views of Hillary" Hillary in a nutshell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtubc0kFReI

"Recommendations for NAFTA" Clinton says nafta will be "reformed and reviewed". Ok, except thats the same thing the Clinton team said in 1992 before they unleashed 15 or so yrs of hell on us. Shes for passing out H1-b visas like candy to India, and this is the one we should trust with our jobs when there are 6 other dems running who all basically want to shitcan the whole thing?

We can do better than Hillary. Even if we lose, at least I can tell my kids once I become aware of the corporatists in our midst I stopped voting for them. Plus its makes no sense for the party to run a republicrat when when can have a genuine populist like John Edwards. Wish it could have been Kooch, Edwards will do though.

















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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #47
58. I thank you for the links. It's refreshing and gratifying to see someone back up their attack.
Edited on Wed Dec-19-07 08:37 AM by BleedingHeartPatriot
Quotes from 1992 and Lou Dobbs not withstanding, her own words are those which provide some substantiation. I greatly appreciate your clarification that she has not specifically said that the troops will remain until 2013.

I clearly remember her vacillation on that debate question and the one which you reference regarding Iran. I personally have not gotten behind an individual candidate and continue to watch the primary battles play out.

I admit to recoiling at the vituperative attacks on several of our candidates on this board, particularly our three front runners, as we negotiate the primary season. The board rules will tighten considerably with the selection of the general election candidate and it is that to which I look forward.

Thanks, again. MKJ

on edit, grammar.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. She said that in the fucking debate.
Didn't you watch? Christ, you ask enough questions to choke a horse. Go look it up yourself. And for crying-out-loud, most of what he says is known by everyone here to be a fact.
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
9. K&R!
Except for the nitwit.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
13. Great rant!
I am amazed anyone could pull a lever for her in the Primary. I guess I am not alone.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
14. Check her record... for some reason everyone wants to blame Clinton for everything
Senator Clinton supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Humane Society of the United States 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Trust for Historic Preservation 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Education Association 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Wilderness Coalition 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Children's Defense Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Association of University Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Organization for Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 91 percent in 2006.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 100 percent in 2005

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence 100 percent from 1988-2003 (Senate) or 1991-2003 (House).

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Public Health Association 80 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers 84 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Worker 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees 88 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of Government Employees 83 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Committee for an Effective Congress 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 100 percent in 2005.

According to the National Journal - Composite Liberal Score's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on economic, defense and foreign policy issues than 80 percent of the Senators.

According to the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on social policy issues than 83 percent of the Senators.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Alliance for Retired Americans 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 92 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Bread for the World 100 percent in 2003-2004.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Partnership for the Homeless 100 percent in 2003-2004.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can...

She was promoting universal coverage before it was cool. Furthermore she helped to create the SCHIP program. And most importantly she was dead on in the debate the other week where she said political will was the most important thing needed to push health care reform through and we know without a doubt she has that.

She has fougt unrelentingly for a woman's right to choose as well as women's rights both domestically and abroad

Create a Strategic Energy Fund - Hillary has proposed a Strategic Energy Fund that would inject $50 billion into research, development and deployment of renewable energy, energy efficiency, clean coal technology, ethanol and other homegrown biofuels. Hillary's proposal would give oil companies a choice: invest in renewable energy or pay into the fund. Hillary's proposal would also eliminate oil company tax breaks and make sure that oil companies pay their fair share for drilling on public lands. Instead of sending billions of dollars to the Middle East for their oil, Hillary's proposal will create a new clean energy industry in America and create tens of thousands of jobs here.

Champion a Market-Based "Cap and Trade" Approach - Hillary supports a market-based, cap and trade approach to reducing carbon emissions and fight global warming. This approach was used successfully to limit sulfur dioxide and reduce levels of acid rain in the 1990s. By capping the amount of emissions in the environment and allowing corporations to buy and sell permits, this approach offers corporations a flexible, cost-efficient method to do their share to reduce emissions and combat global warming. The program will reduce emissions, drive the development of clean technologies, and create a market for projects that store carbon dioxide.

20% Renewable Electricity Standard by 2020 - Hillary believes we need to shift our reliance on high carbon electricity sources to low-carbon electricity sources by investing in renewable energy sources, such as solar and wind. As President, she'll work to require power companies to obtain 20 percent of their energy from renewable sources by 2020.

Make Federal Buildings Carbon Neutral - Hillary believes that the federal government should lead the way in reducing carbon emissions from buildings. Buildings account for 40 percent of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions, and the federal government owns or leases more than 500,000. Hillary would require all federal buildings to steadily increase the use of green design principles, energy efficient technologies, and to generate energy on-site from solar and other renewable sources. By 2030, all new federal buildings and major renovations would be carbon neutral, helping to fight global warming and cutting the $5.6 billion that the federal government spends each year on heating, cooling and lighting.

Protecting Against Exposure to Toxic Chemicals - Hillary wants to make the products we use safer, especially for children. There are tens of thousands of chemicals used in the U.S. and hundreds of new chemicals introduced each year, but little health testing is conducted for many of them. Hillary would require chemical companies to prove that new chemicals are safe before they are put on the market, and would set more stringent exposure standards for kids. She would also create a "priority list" of existing chemicals and require testing to make sure they are safe. To improve our understanding of the links between chemicals and diseases like cancer, Hillary would create an "environmental health tracking network" that ties together information about pollution and chronic diseases.

Hillary's Record

In the White House, Hillary led efforts to make adoption easier, to expand early learning and child care, to increase funding for breast cancer research, and to help veterans suffering from Gulf War syndrome who had too often been ignored in the past. She helped launch a national campaign to prevent teen pregnancy and helped create the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997, which moved children from foster care to adoption more quickly and the number of children who have moved out of foster care into adoption has increased dramatically.

She was instrumental in designing and championing the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which has provided millions of children with health insurance. She battled the big drug companies to force them to test their drugs for children and to make sure all kids get the immunizations they need through the Vaccines for Children Program. Immunization rates dramatically improved after the program launched.

Hillary has been a leading member of the Environment and Public Works Committee since she was elected to the Senate. Today, she chairs the Superfund and Environmental Health Subcommittee and in that capacity has promoted legislation to evaluate and protect against the impact of environmental pollutants on people's health and clean up toxic waste.

Global warming and Clean Air
Spoken out forcefully about the need to tackle global warming in hearings, speeches, rallies and on the Senate floor and co-sponsored "cap and trade" legislation.
Worked to reduce air pollution that causes asthma and other respiratory diseases by writing and helping to pass new laws to clean up exhaust from school buses, and other diesel-powered equipment.
Supported legislation to reduce pollution from power plants, including harmful emissions of sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury, and carbon dioxide - emissions that contribute to poor air quality, smog, acid rain, global warming, and mercury contamination of fish.
Aggressively fought the Bush Administration's ill-advised attempts to weaken clean air laws.

Improving Water Quality and Protecting Drinking Water
Helped to overturn the Bush Administration's attempt to allow more arsenic in drinking water.
Cosponsored legislation to protect lakes, rivers and coastal waters by fighting the spread of destructive invasive species, such as the zebra mussel.
Helped ot pass new clean water laws, including measures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

Protecting Public Lands
Fought oil company efforts to pen the Artic Wildlife Refuge in Alask and Pacific and Atlantic coastal waters to drilling.
Cosponsored the Roadless Area Conservation Act, which prohibits road construction and logging in unspoiled, roadless areas of the National Forest System, and voted for additional funding and manpower to combat forest fires in the west.

Reducing Dangerous Chemicals and Cleaning Up Hazardous Waste
Supported legislation to restore the "polluter pays" principle by reinstating a chemical company fee to fund cleanups of highly contaminated "Superfund" waste sites.
Cosponsored the "kids-Safe Chemical Act," which requires chemical companies to provide health and safety before putting new chemicals in consumer products.
Proposed legislation to create an environmental health tracking network to enable us to better understand the impact of environmental hazards on human health and well-being.

Tackling the Toxic Legacy of 9/11
Pushed for health care benefits for first responders, residents and others whose health has been impacted from breathing the toxic dust and smoke in New York City after 9/11.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/8/20/134810/677

Hillary Clinton co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, a state-level alliance with the Children's Defense Fund, in 1977. In late 1977, President Jimmy Carter (for whom she had done 1976 campaign coordination work in Indiana) appointed her to the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation, and she served in that capacity from 1978 through the end of 1981. For much of that time she served as the chair of that board, the first woman to do so. During her time as chair, funding for the Corporation was expanded from $90 million to $300 million, and she successfully battled against President Ronald Reagan's initial attempts to reduce the funding and change the nature of the organization.

Following the November 1978 election of her husband as Governor of Arkansas, Clinton became First Lady of Arkansas in January 1979, her title for a total of twelve years. Bill appointed her chair of the Rural Health Advisory Committee the same year, where she successfully obtained federal funds to expand medical facilities in Arkansas' poorest areas without affecting doctors' fees.

Hillary Clinton chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee from 1982 to 1992, where she sought to bring about reform in the state's court-sanctioned public education system. One of the most important initiatives of the entire Clinton governorship, she fought a prolonged but ultimately successful battle against the Arkansas Education Association to put mandatory teacher testing as well as state standards for curriculum and classroom size in place. She introduced Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth in 1985, a program that helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.

And a bit of stuff from the White House years:

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage. She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare. She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.

The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome. Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice. In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage.<124> She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare.<125> She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.<43> The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome.<43> Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.<43> In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.<43> As First Lady, Clinton hosted numerous White House Conferences, including ones on Child Care (1997),<126> Early Childhood Development and Learning (1997),<127> and Children and Adolescents (2000),<128> and the first-ever White House Conferences on Teenagers (2000)<129> and Philanthropy (1999).<130>

Hillary Clinton traveled to over eighty countries during this time,<131> breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon.<132> In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself.<133> She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<134><135> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

"...Hillary Clinton traveled to over eighty countries during this time,<131> breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon.<132> In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself.<133> She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<134><135> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries..."

More:
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/israe...
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/darfu...


The following are polls from progressive groups, rating Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, on how often they vote for progressive issues. For each group, http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011142.php

Clinton Vs. Barack Obama (progressivepunch)
Overall Progressive Score: 92% 90%
Aid to Less Advantaged People at Home and Abroad: 98% 97%
Corporate Subsidies 100% N/A
Education, Humanities and the Arts 88% 100%
Environment 92% 100%
Fair Taxation 97% 100%
Family Planning 88% 80%
Government Checks on Corporate Power 95% 97%
Healthcare 98% 94%
Housing 100% 100%
Human Rights & Civil Liberties 82% 77%
Justice for All: Civil and Criminal 94% 91%
Labor Rights 91% 91%
Making Government Work for Everyone, Not Just the Rich or Powerful 94% 90%
War and Peace 80% 86%
easures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

HILLARY'S EXPERIENCE ON THE WORLD STAGE:

Her historic speech at the UN Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing in 1995 not only galvanized women around the world, it helped spawn a movement that led to advances politically, legally, economically, and socially for women in many countries over the next decade. Among other initiatives, she spearheaded the Clinton Administration's efforts to combat the global crisis of human trafficking. She persuaded the First Ladies of the Americas to use their collective power to eradicate measles and improve girls' education throughout the western Hemisphere. And she is widely credited with helping women in Kuwait finally win the right to vote.

As First Lady and now as a two-term senator who represents the most ethnically diverse state in the nation and who sits on the Armed Services Committee, Hillary Clinton has become a fixture on international issues over the past 15 years. She has traveled to more than 80 countries, going from barrios to rural villages to meetings with heads of state. She has consulted with dozens of world leaders - Nelson Mandela, King Abdullah, Tony Blair among them -- on matters as diverse as America and NATO's roles in Kosovo, eradicating poverty in the Third World, and the plight of women living under the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Today, she is one of the most influential voices in the world on human rights, democracy, and the promotion of a "new internationalism" in foreign affairs that calls for a balanced use of military force, diplomacy, and social development to strengthen American interests and security globally.

While American First Ladies historically have made great (and often overlooked) contributions to our nation, Hillary Clinton's wide-ranging experience on international issues as First Lady is unprecedented. Indeed, she is the only First Lady to have delivered foreign policy addresses at major gatherings of the United Nations, the World Bank, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the World Economic Forum.
Perry Logan

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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
19.  nothing but an"average" voting record for an "alleged" progressive.
Where, in that list, is any kind of "stand alone" vote of the nature of some of Barbara Boxers that take courage? Nothing is any different tham the record of nmany Dems. Her record is in fact, identical to Liebermans! Which is why some still agrgue that Lieberman isn't that bad. Amd never forget she is the most favorite candidate of AIPAC!
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Kucinich4America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
44. Spam
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
50. Can you explain this to me then?
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton REPEATEDLY REFUSED TO PROVIDE ANY
RESPONSES TO CITIZENS ON ISSUES THROUGH THE 2008
POLITICAL COURAGE TEST WHEN ASKED TO DO SO BY

Key national leaders of both major parties including:
John McCain, Republican Senator
Geraldine Ferraro, Former Democratic Congresswoman
Michael Dukakis, Former Democratic Governor
Bill Frenzel, Former Republican Congressman
Richard Kimball, Project Vote Smart President

News organizations throughout the nation also urged candidates to supply their issue positions through the Political Courage Test.


Urge Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton to fill out the Political Courage Test

http://votesmart.org/bio.php?can_id=WNY99268

I'd just like to know.

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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
16. drivel
what a mind numbingly stupid piece of crap.

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. No, that's your
post.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #35
51. "what a mind numbingly stupid piece of crap."
The silver lining here is that you didn't call it "whale crap" and hurt my feelings.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
18. K&R. Well presented.
I agree.

source: bvar22's personal opinion.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
20. Beautifully presented. I feel your pain.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
21. Keep getting it off your chest, Yuugal, new folks read posts every day. The best
thing can do is expose others to this information and request they not believe us, but to research it for themselves before they vote.

Great post. rec'd.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
24. Many, many people share your sentiments, including me. Thank you so much
for sharing. K&R. :thumbsup: :yourock:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
26. Thanks for going
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 05:39 PM by zidzi
there and reporting back. She's my senator and I have nothing but contempt for her and her bush enabling votes, Kerry Backstabbing, and lying about the kyl-lieman bill vote. And now, all this goebbels-rove-penn psych-op shit with ol' slick bringin' up the blunder caboose..there's nothing appealing about hillary and her supporters make sure of that.
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #26
48. lol that about sums it up!
You did it in alot less words than me. I got real tired of the Clinton shtick first time around and Hillary has done nothing in ny except keep a true progressive out of a senate seat for the last 7 yrs. Now shes is playing Bob Dole in a reenactment of 1996 and acting like she is owed the nom. Yuk.

Damn I forgot how the Clintons rolled over and played dead for Kerry. Thanks for reminding me. What a coincidence Hillary gets to run now, 4 yrs earlier than she would have.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
34. Feel better now?
Why get so agitated? The answer is very simple: vote for someone else.

See, wasn't that easy?
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
38. K&R
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
39. Truly deserves the name rant.
Here's a part that really rants: "Finally, never ever forget that many of us are so demoralized by our own party's behavior that we consider 4 more yrs of hell to be a small price to pay if it gets us a chance for a real progressive and thus real change. Bush with tits isn't going to cut it."

Everyone should take a quiet moment and just digest that one. It seems to crystallize some common thought habits WRT Hillary specifically and politics in general. Thinking about it is helpful, IMO.
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #39
52. I highlighted that line for deletion....
because it pinned even my vitriol meter in the red. Left it in though and now I'm glad I did. I will always wonder if people like Clinton, Pelosi and Reid realize how betrayed many of us dems feel. We give them both houses and they still can't do shit? If you are a political junkie like me after a while you become so cynical you start to think they are almost ALL working against us common folk. Once you reach that point in your thinking where can you go? One side of my Gemini brain is chanting "Corporate War monger!" and the other is pleading "stay true to the party and hope for the best". Except I've been doing alot of hoping my entire life and things just never work out for us dems. The dems gave Bush all the war money he wanted, caved on every nominee, voted for his wars and spying programs. Impeachment is off the table but torture is on?

Dude, where is my party? Are they leaving me or am I leaving them? I think the common thought pattern you are referring to is betrayal mixed with disgust mixed with the fear that Hillary might be alot better at being GWB than Bush was.

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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
40. Damn Good Rant.
K&R
:kick:
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MzShellG Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
42. Kick and REC.....
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 08:42 PM by Me_Shell
I love this post. You touched on almost every reason why I'm not voting for HRC. Also the whole G.H.W. Bush thing is just bizzare. I remember how Sen. Obama was condemned for associating with Colin Powell. Now HRC and hubby are being praised for kissing Bush's a$$? What's that all about?



Edited for spelling.
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #42
53. Thank you
Beats me about Papa Bush.... maybe they need to kiss the ring and then the voting machines magically give her a win to keep the Bush Clinton Bush Clinton Bush train going?
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
57. I'm astonded
A well thought out and well stated explanation of your concerns about Queen Hillary and not one note about "its because shes a woman"? I thought that was the only reason we were allowed to have (or is relegated upon us)

:rofl:

Well played.
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