A lot of DU reactions to the Des Moines Register endorsement of Hillary are disappointing. . .

[wndycty]

First and foremost SINCERE CONGRATULATIONS to Hillary and her supporters on this nomination. Its good news for her campaign, especially in a week in which they needed good news.

Now on to the endorsement and my disappointment in the DU reactions. Before the endorsement was announced I watched a lot of DUers who supported Obama and Edwards talk about a how big a deal the Register endorsement would be for our respective candidates (I remain a passionate Obama supporter) and I watched a lot of Clinton supporters say how irrelevant newspaper endorsements were. Now Hillary got the endorsement and that all changed. Why is that? Don't reply, we all know the answer.

Just like in 2003/2004 the DU has just gone crazy. Since the beginning of the month I have significantly reduced my posts on DU. Why is that? Because its become harder and harder to support a candidate on DU without either becoming a hater or just appearing the be a hater of another candidate. The atmosphere here is just toxic and it will get worse before 1/3/08. I'm not going to take a holier than thou approach because I can sling with the best of them, but the problem is I don't hate the other candidates and can support them all.

Lately, the real world rhetoric of all the campaigns have gotten worse, but for some reason that doesn't bother me as much as the DU rhetoric. I think its because I expect politicians to be politicians, but its different when real people (or at least internet posters that I have a cyber relationship with) engage in those same tactics.

[hlthe2b]

1. It is harder to take if you are invested in a specific choice...

Given Colorado's caucuses come too late to matter, I have decided to remain undecided. Instead I catalog the good and bad points of each, and make sure I understand where I have agreements and disagreements with their stands, but I don't personalize it. Each of the candidates are so superior to anything on the right--we need to keep this in mind.

Having said that, my beef with the endorsement is their overt acknowledgment that Edwards is too "anti-corporatist," for them to choose him this year. I find that amazingly honest and disgustingly illustrative of our current corporatist-dominated media.

[cyclezealot]

21. They have already proven their lack of

faith in democracy by their exclusion policy during their last debate. Not a surprise they would endorse Hillary , considering her track record with corporate donors. The Register well displays their Gannett connections to the monopolistic corporate media. Did not know Edwards to be Marxist. ? A Register endorsement. Should encourage one not to vote for their recommendations.

[dkf]

2. This is because most of us have no say who our candidate is

The only way many of us can express our voice is in forums like this.

Our primary system is UnAmerican.

[ClintonTyree]

3. I agree....

DU is becoming almost intolerable. I click on and read the news stories but avoid the political "debates" like the plague.

This happens every election cycle, but this time things seem to be getting particularly nasty. If DU is a barometer of the Democratic Party's forecast, we're in deep doo-doo.

[zanne]

4. I confess; I'm guilty.

At first, I decided to stay out of the primary wars on DU, because as a volunteer at Obama HQ, we're told not to insult other candidates. After awhile, I noticed that, instead of writing opinions about why I was supporting Obama, I was replying to attacks on Obama. So, it went from being nice and not paying attention to jabs to being aggressive in my response to attacks on Obama.
I think that this is the progression; We begin by supporting our candidate and giving other candidates credit for being good also, to comparing candidates to others with a little bit of a bite, to just defending our candidate by replying to venomous posts with equal venom.
We're working hard now because it's coming down to the wire (Jan. 8), so, fortunately, I won't have alot of time to be nasty or to think about being nasty on DU. Next month, I'll have a bunch of out-of-state volunteers sleeping on my floors and I'll be phone-banking every day.
So before I commence with all that madness, let me say to all of you: I WILL SUPPORT ANY DEM. PRIMARY WINNER, and good luck to us all.

[Adelante]

5. I agree with you entirely

A little grace never hurts. :)

[Tom Rinaldo]

6. I of course see what you are writing about

It has been a sort of liberation for me this year that I do not care greatly about any of our candidates (but will work for any of them in the General Election). That doesn't mean that I don't have feelings and preferences, just that they are significantly muted for me compared to in 2004. After, progressively, Feingold, Clark, and Gore chose not to run I considered the options left to me all flawed in ways that prevented me from becoming excited about speicifically working for any of them in the primaries.

I have involved into becomeing a mild Clinton supporter who would also be pleased if Joe Biden won the nomination. Some time soon I will likely post more on how I came to that decision, but for now my main point is that this time I am not in love with my candidate, and I feel no need to defend her on every count possible because she is not my ideal candidate. None of them are. That gives me a little more detachment this time than in 2004. In my first commment on the Des Moines Register endorsement of Clinton I actually started out by saying that I continue to have a problem with the amount of influence Newspaper endorsements wield in our society, lol. So I guess I didn't follow the mold of reactions you described, but I know that is more an indication of my greater detachment from the race this year than any thing else.

This year I've continued to say good things about Biden even though I seem to now be backing Clinton. Over the last couple of days I found myself alternating between pointing to Obama's relative weaknesses and acknowledging Obama's relative strengths. This year I rarely rise to the temptation of arguing the reasons why I think Edwards is less electable than his many supporters here view him as being. On one hand, like I said above, it is a liberation, but on the other hand it comes with sadness, because I simply don't care about the candidates quite as much this year.

But I'll take the good with the bad. I like being able to admit to aspects of the candidates that trouble me, even my own. I like never forgeting the relative joy I will feel if we elect any of our candidates President in 2008, even the ones I like the least. And I like minimizing the number of really nasty personal exchanges I get into with fellow DUers, though at this time in the political season it seems some are inevitable when I actually say what is on my mind. Now if I could find a way to hold onto the positive aspects of my current relative detachment and feel a burning passion to support one of our candidates none the less, that to me would be political blogging heaven.

[Auntie Bush]

16. Ditto for me! n/t

[Adelante]

20. It's a matter of good battle sense, too

There are real fights to be made; they should be well-fought, but more importantly, wisely selected. A newspaper endorsement? You say mazel tov and go celebrate something about your own candidate. (Such as Obama's Boston Globe endorsement - YAY!) I don't get the waste of energy involved in some of this infighting over not very much, either, Tom.

[Sparkly]

22. I share many of your thoughts and feelings, Tom.

Detachment has its benefits!

I don't think any of the candidates are as BAD as some say, nor as GOOD as some say. They're politicians.

I think the excitement or "burning passion" will arrive when we have a candidate fighting a Republican nominee, because there the contrasts will be stark -- on church/state, choice, environment, education, as well as the role of diplomacy vs. force in foreign policy.

[EV_Ares]

7. Link to the reaction of people to the Register's endorsement, not favorable

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071215/NEWS/71215016#gslPageReturn

[THUNDER HANDS]

8. who did the paper endorse in 2003?

[Inspired]

9. Every candidate would have love this endorsement. but......

it really only would shake things up if it had gone to Biden or one of the other second tier candidates. That is the reality of it.

As an Edwards supporter in Des Moines, I would have LOVED to see them endorse him again. I NEVER thought they would though. I saw a few comments designed to raise the expectations but I never believed it would happen. My only surprise is that it didn't go to Biden.

[ginchinchili]

10. Here's what bothers me about it.

The reasons they give for endorsing Hillary, and McCain for that matter, apply to my candidate, Joe Biden, more so than they do Hillary. He's got much more experience, greater depth of knowledge and expertise, a better proven track record of working across the aisle, and he is not the divisive figure that Hillary is. It's frustrating. It's like watching a horse race, seeing your horse come in first, then seeing the victory bestowed upon one of the other horses. The media just won't give Biden the recognition he so richly deserves, and has earned. I can't help but wonder if all things were the same except Biden was a woman or an African American, if Biden wouldn't be the front runner of the Democratic Party.

[Evergreen Emerald]

11. I wish you could have seen the cspan show this morning

The Des Moines Register's editor was on and taking questions. She talked about the research and interviews and discussions that went into the endorsement.

It was well researched, well thought out, and I am more impressed with the endorsement after watching her talk about what they went through to make their decisions.

[ginchinchili]

12. I would have like to have seen it. But the fact still remains...

Biden fills out her endorsement better than Hillary does, or McCain for that matter. How did she explain that?

[Evergreen Emerald]

14. I did not see the Biden portion, but here is something I was told:

Biden voted for the bankruptcy bill, against the Kerry-Feingold bill in 2006 which would have brough most of the troops home by now, and his big plan for Iraq is a three state partition (the plan that would cause a war involving at least Turkey and Kurdistan, but probably also Iran, Saudi Arabia and the Sunni and Shi'ite sections of Iraq. About the only plan that every middle east expert can agree is wrong.). He is corrupt (deep in the pocket of credit card companies, hence the bankruptcy vote), politically cowardly, and a deeply stupid person. If C-SPAN makes available tapes of Judiciary and Foreign Relations committee meetings spend some time wathcing them. He is easily the least intelligent person in the room, and that includes people like Orrin Hatch and Sessions. His questions are vapid and silly, and for someone who has been on these committees for years he often displays a startling ignorance (he references particular cases less often than just about anyone else, and he is responsible for that moronic policy of judicial nominess not being forced to give their legal opinions about any issue that might come up for review).

I had not heard this of Biden before.

[K Gardner]

18. And you just proved the OPs point about nastiness. Unbelievable. n/t

[Evergreen Emerald]

19. what? I do not understand this response?

Can you please elaborate?

[K Gardner]

24. You admit to not seeing the CSpan portion on Biden, yet

in one fell swoop you have called Biden: Corrupt, cowardly, deeply stupid, vapid, silly, ignorant, least intelligent, responsible for moronic judges, etc. Based on "what you were told". You will not find ANY of these sentiments expressed about Joe Biden from anyone who knows him and it is not what was said on CSpan.

Here is a link to a thread where people actually watched the Biden portion:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3845544#3845609

My point is, your attack was ad hominem and unjustified.

[Evergreen Emerald]

25. I have been wondering why Biden is not getting the big name

endorsements. I have been wondering why Biden is not ahead in the polls: he has name recognition / years of experience /and is quite an engaging fellow when he speaks.

So, I have been asking around and discussing this issue.

In fact, if you look at my posts, you will see that I have liked Biden and supported him.

But, it is nice to know what the heck is going on that he would not be ahead. And I was given this information.

I know this is a tense time. And I know that people are quick to jump on others for perceived attacks--I just did it on another post...and apologized for it. You are off base here.

This is information that you may use if you wish. But, please don't accuse me of crap. I in no way meant this as an attack on Biden.

[1corona4u]

26. Yes, and I know EXACTLY where YOU got it from...

and Here was my reply to it;

First of all, Biden voted for the bankruptcy bill, so that women could get their child support payments before any other creditor when a deadbeat dad files for a BK. No other reason;

His floor statement; "I am particularly proud of my record of protecting women and children during my career in the Senate. That record includes the Violence Against Women Act to protect women threatened by domestic violence.

I am here again today to show that, contrary to a lot of the rhetoric that has been tossed around, this bill actually improves the situation of women and children who depend on child support. It specifically targets the problems they face under the current bankruptcy system into a virtual extension of the current national family support collection system. "

http://biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=234426

I might also add, that this bill was being worked on for 10 years. John Edwards had also voted for the BK bill in 2001. However, as to my opinion, I say, GOOD. It's about damn time people stopped abusing BK's, when they live well above their means, and then expect a bail out when they can't pay their bills. By the way, credit cards are OPTIONAL. And don't bother giving me the sob story about how the BK bill hurts the poor, or the Vets, blah, blah, blah, because there ARE protections IN PLACE for all special circumstances. I've read the entire bill. Have you??

Secondly, Joe Biden voted against Kerry- Feingold bill to continue to fund the troops so that they would have the right equipment necessary to be protected. He said he would not use the troops as a pawn. To protect the troops. It was also only a 4 month funding bill. His "plan" is not "partitioning". It also is specifically with what the Iraq constitution calls for. Sorry you don't get it.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/senator-joe-biden-votes-to-fund-us-troops-in-the-field/267440862

He is not "corrupt deep in the pocket of credit card companies, hence the bankruptcy vote". Here are his contributors, since 1989;

JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR.: CAREER PROFILE (SINCE 1989)

Top Industries
The top industries supporting Joseph R. Biden Jr. are:
1 Lawyers/Law Firms $6,265,871
2 Real Estate $1,172,230
3 Retired $853,148
4 Securities & Investment $839,775
5 Misc Finance $499,470
6 Misc Business $462,641
7 Business Services $455,925
8 Health Professionals $382,275
9 TV/Movies/Music $364,666
10 Lobbyists $333,185
11 Finance/Credit Companies $294,650
12 Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $294,249
13 Pro-Israel $272,700
14 Commercial Banks $269,050
15 Education $249,725
16 Insurance $223,975
17 Retail Sales $186,400
18 General Contractors $175,550
19 Accountants $136,935
20 Democratic/Liberal $129,490

So, that's about a $563,000 bucks in 18 years. Or $31,000 a year in contributions. I doubt he did it for the banks, at all.



As far as your comments about his intelligence, they're simply BS, and are childish remarks, which you somehow thought made your point stronger. Everything else you said, was just ridiculous, and not worthy of spending time replying to.



What's being said about Biden is total BULLSHIT, and the LIES need to STOP.

[Auntie Bush]

15. Damn, I missed it. I'll try to catch it on a repeat or if someone posts a video.

[ChiciB1]

30. I Watched It... I Didn't Get That Impression... It Was Also Stated That

they thought she would be better for "business" and "working" people! I find THAT statement very contrived because what it said to me was.... Hillary won't hurt "us!" and we can keep on doing "business as usual!"

We just interpreted differently.

[Diane R]

31. Did they ask her is she is going to keep her Bill Clinton phone message forever?

[Stop Cornyn]

13. I wonder what the effect of the DMR endorsement will be? I think it puts the kibosh on any 2nd tier

candidate busting past Hillary.

I think the endorsement could have really made a huge difference for Richardson or Dodd or Biden. I think the net effect of this endorsement will be to reinforce the top tier/bottom tier dichotomy.

[Evergreen Emerald]

17. If history is any indication--likely it will not be a catapult to the win

But I think in Clinton's case it is a good leg-up. She gets such bad press (the propaganda machine is generally against Clinton and has been for a decade). I think this will stop the negative spin for a moment.

[JNelson6563]

23. I was at a party last night

and, just like all the other real world gatherings I attend, folks voiced their preferences and reasons and there was no slamming of other candidates. Additionally everyone said they'd vote for whoever the nominee was and most hoped it wouldn't be Clinton.

No name calling, no smearing, none of what goes on here at DU that passes for "discussion". The internet really is another universe unto itself.

Julie

[K Gardner]

27. Thanks for the "real world" update,Julie :-) If it were possible,

I'd vote for Stewart/Colbert ! :toast:

[ChiciB1]

29. I Agree With You... I Don't See The Vitriol We See Here... But I Also

have to agree with you that MANY, MANY do not support Hillary! I'm not just saying this, it's what I'M HEARING said to me "fact to face!"

So, if she's the nominee it's really going to make me wonder.... BIG TIME!!

It's MONEY & CORPORATE POWER, all over again!

[Froward69]

28. Ha HA ha... without any

links to back up your post. and you label Joe a PLAGIARIST.

[wndycty]

32. Huh?

When did I say anything about Biden? Not sure why you are attacking me. LOL