The Dean Campaign: The *Republican* Wing of the Democratic Party?

[JHBowden]

While Dean was ahead, many heard claims how Dean and his rank'n'file were "true" Democrats, while everyone else was a Republican fraud. If one wasn't on board to "tack our country back," one must have been a spineless Republican in disguise. While the chest thumping made sense while Dean was in the race, it is awkward to see it persist. In anycase, we seemed fearless in the face of Bushler. The Republicans were going down no matter what, and it was awesome. Nobody was going to stop us.

Fellow Democrats who weren't with Dean were labelled Republican cockroaches. Many found this surprising, given that many of the candidates attacked were more liberal than Dean on a myriad of issues. Gun control. Capital punishment. Taxes on the middle class. The flag of southern treason. Medicare. The environment. NAFTA. Dean had backbone, but dammit, he was a centrist from the Lieberman wing from the Democratic Party, not a liberal Messiah, regardless how important and special the campaign made us feel.

There was optimism. It was thought Dean could raise a lot of money and supporters to take down George W. Bush, supposedly the #1 goal. I also appreciated his moderate record, and thought it could be an asset. I supported Governor Dean throughout 2003, donated money to his campaign, and attended several meetups. The candidacy seemed to be a very attractive package, but this idea was completely falsified in Iowa and beyond. Since then, the loss has been rationalized by conspiracy theories and make-believe about the liberals in the party being conservative.

Now, there are people with Dean avatars all over the place in this community making excuses for Ralph Nader, the thug who claimed Gore would have invaded Iraq for oil. Unknown, mysterious, shady figures in the centrist DLC must have brutally crushed little ol Dean and his puny warchest of $40,000,000.00 from overwhelming the other candidates. Hence, we can now "take our country back" by going easy on Ralph. Four more years of Bush is an expression of "democracy," after all. If we get a liberal like Kerry instead of a centrist like Dean, damn the world, and put Bush in office. Or one can show contempt by promising not to lift a finger to help Democrats while nominally claiming to only punch the correct ballot.

Thus, I don't get it. Dean supporters can't be angry solely because they lost a rough campaign and were treated like shit, for this happened to Clark supporters, called "Republicans" by Dean partisans. One doesn't observe Clark supporters acting up today after Clark's withdrawal, claiming Edwards and Kerry = Bush. In addition, Dean supporters can't be mad because their candidate was the most principled on issues, because he wasn't. Nor were the distinctions on issues that were talking points, like the war in Iraq and civil liberties, all that sharp. Hence, the question presents itself: Could Dean supporters really desire another four years of George W. Bush?

One can speculate what is causing this. Perhaps Dean made his supporters feel important with the letter writing, "you have the power" talk, and all of the complements he bestowed upon his support. Maybe cognititve dissonance is at work; one doesn't want to feel like an idiot for maxing out credit cards for a loser, so a rationalization is needed, and that happens to be Kerry & Edwards = Bush. How to interpret the behavior isn't clear.

If someone wants to fill me in on what's going on, go right ahead.

[MurikanDemocrat]

1. Sour grapes. And it's just a small vocal minority of Dean supporters

The majority of Dean supporters are rational, reasonable, and not so over-emotional and bitter.

[FloridaPat]

2. Dean would have set a different tone in Washington. He was

for the people. Kerry and Edwards are business as usual. Bush is wasy beyond business as usual. That's my take. Also, the news media has decided who will run against Bush, not "we the people".

[DemBones DemBones]

9. You conveniently ignore the fact that Dean never won a primary

or caucus state. The people, not the media or the DNC or anyone else, made those choices.

I love Dennis Kucinich's platform, but the people aren't voting for him.

Have the media marginalized Kucinich? Absolutely. So that means I should vote for Nader or stay home? Teach the media and the DNC a lesson by helping Bush win an election? Teach the "stupid" voters a lesson?

NO THANKS.

[Scott Lee]

25. Neither has Kucinich. So why do you sport a pro -DK sig line?

....(got a piece of chive stuck in your teeth..)

[DemBones DemBones]

39. No, but it's not DK supporters tthreatening to be spoilers.

I think people should vote their hearts in the primary, and I will.

But in the general election, voting anybody except the Dem nominee threatens the future for all of us.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

62. Rational voices like yours as well as

DK's positions are the reasons I've been such an admirer of the Kucinich camp.

:yourock:

[mountainvue]

94. If Kucinich was the nominee

I'd sure as hell vote for him.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JHBowden]

7. I have a few thousand on my other handle.

;-)

[boxster]

11. ignore

deleted

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JHBowden]

6. The masses seem to be voting for Kerry and Edwards.

I think you are pissed. The question is -- why are a disproportionate amount of Dean supporters angry, and not Clark supporters?

[Scott Lee]

10. The masses think Jesus appears in taco shells

So I hope you come up with a better argument.

[janx]

13. Thanks, Scott.

I am so pissed that I can't even articulate anything. Stories are something different. Thank you.

[mattgabe]

129. That's right, baby

everyone else is a moron, except you. Lead us, oh great one!

Perhaps it's condescension that alienates moderates away from the Dems?

[The Magistrate]

130. So, Mr. Lee

What elite do you propose should rule, since you are clearly of the belief the people are incapable of ruling themselves?

Doubtless you imagine that elite will include yourself among the decision makers for all the rest of us?

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[bitchkitty]

137. Hey, I'm sure you'll be an elite -

You're so polysyllabic, we'll need you to confuse the Kerry supporters! ;)

[janx]

14. Clark was put in to take support away from Dean.

That is why.

Some honest Clark voters own up to this; others do not.

[tritsofme]

19. Or at least that's what Rush Limbaugh says nt

[QC]

35. And William Safire. And Sean Hannity. And most of Free Republic.

Strange, eh?

[Crunchy Frog]

50. I'm sorry janx

I'm a Clark supporter, I consider myself to be honest, and I just don't see it that way.

Clark got in because thousands of people begged him to, because they saw him as the best shot that we had at taking out Bush. Everyone who runs for president has, as one of their aims, taking away support from the other candidates, because that is the only way that you win.

Clark wasn't in it to take away support from Dean, any more than Dean was in it to take away support from Kerry. They were all in it to try to win the nomination.

[janx]

77. Well you are always my best student bud! But

Clark was in because Kerry wasn't gaining traction. He said so himself on Charlie Rose. And you even admitted that you thought that Clark was used and discarded like an old condom, and I agree with you.

Clark was used to counter Dean. There is no doubt.

The Dem powers like to ally Clark with Kerry because of the media military connection. But of real ideology is admitted, Dean and Clark are the most allied.

Such a shame! And all the more reason I should get out of the realm of politics.

I'm happier writing and teaching others.

[Crunchy Frog]

111. It's no secret that Kerry was Clark's favorite

before he got into the race, and that Clark didn't believe that someone without strong foreign policy and national security credentials could hope to beat Bush this year, in this particular climate of international crisis. Sadly, I have to agree with him on that.

You know that I started out as a Dean supporter, but I never had much confidence that he could beat Bush. Ultimately, Clark got in to try to counter Bush, not Dean. He just didn't happen to believe that Dean had the sort of credentials that would be necessary to beat Bush.

I have always been, and continue to be, fairly dubious about Kerry's chances also, but I understand why Clark believes that after himself, Kerry is the strongest candidate to go against Bush, and the most qualified to be President.

Kerry has strong credentials in foreign policy and national security. It is also my understanding that Clark and Kerry are friends, have worked together in the past, and have alot of respect for one another. It makes complete sense to me that Clark would back Kerry, once he knew that he no longer had a shot at the nomination.

I also think that Clark and Kerry are closer ideologically to each other than to anybody else. Clark has some stylistic similarities to Dean in that he has a backbone, and isn't afraid to say what he thinks, or to take on Bush directly. Kerry lacks that directness and fearlessness, however Clark and Kerry are ideologically more aligned with each other, than either one is to Dean. Dean is very centrist politically, while I believe that both Kerry and Clark are much more liberal.

[democratreformed]

17. This Clark supporter varies between anger and despair

I am angry that I let myself believe that a few people could make a difference. I am angry that our campaign had some bad apples. I am angry that I have lost hope. I am angry over many things.

I have been channeling my anger toward introspection. I have been trying to figure out if the situation is as hopeless as I am inclined to feel like it is or if I want to take a chance on having hope again.

I can't decide if it is worth the emotional toil to take the time to learn enough about one of the other candidates to truly believe in him like I believed in Wes Clark. I fear the sense of hopelessness and feeling of being meaningless if I embrace another candidate only to lose again. I suspect that I will eventually come out of it, but, for now, I am still gathering my thoughts and feelings.

I despair at the thought of failure in November. I wonder if our country's situation is as dire as it has seemed. I wonder if I have just bought into some wild theories on the looming end of democracy and economic depression if Bush should win again. I wonder because many others do not seem to be nearly so concerned.

Yes, this is my first experience at being so involved. That involvement has often given me glimpses of truths that I am not sure that I want to know. Somehow, I have to reconcile the "game" with how serious I feel the situation is. That is still the hardest thing.

I suspect that many Clark and Dean supporters took this primary contest very seriously and were completely shocked at how it actually works. We must now reconcile our feelings of anger (or whatever) with reality and how we are going to deal with it.

[Crunchy Frog]

42. I think the difference is

That we havn't been lashing out at other candidates and their supporters. I and many other Clark supporters have experienced the same types of intense emotions that you describe. I am angry at the system, I am angry at the media, I am angry that many voters don't take the time to really educate themselves about the candidates, but just seem to go along with the flow. I feel tremendous amounts of regret and loss because I'm convinced that my candidate would have been the most extraordinary president of my lifetime. An like you, I'm scared as hell that we're going to lose this election. I've had to go through a major grieving process that I'm still working through.

But in the end, I have to accept what happened and move on, and remember that in the end, my biggest priority is getting rid of Bush, and that supporters of other candidates have the same priority, as does my own candidate.

I'm not going to blame the two other candidates who did better than my guy did, and I'm not going to lash out at their supporters who may feel just as strongly as I do about their own candidates.

I'm also not going to pretend that my own candidate didn't make some critical mistakes and miscalculation going in, even though I also thing he got screwed by the media.

I sure as hell don't think that everybody else in the country should be punished with four more years of Bush, just because they didn't see things my way.

[democratreformed]

51. Oh, I agree completely with everything you have said.

Maybe we are just more mature? I don't know. All I know is that lashing out doesn't get anywhere. Believe me, I sure want to sometimes. Maybe we are like our candidate and are inclined to action. That's what I plan on doing - formulating a plan on how to stay involved, continuing to educate myself, and, of course, continuing to support my candidate and my party however I can.

[DemBones DemBones]

12. You wrote a book and your family had a Steinway. . .

so your vote should count more than that of an "average" citizen? Or what?

[janx]

16. I guess I should not tell people to F off, but I do.

[Scott Lee]

20. Literate people sometimes play an instrument.

Does that come as a shock to you?

[DemBones DemBones]

34. Not at all. We have a house full of musical instruments,

my husband and daughter being quite musical, and we have all been published -- but we all still get one vote each.

I'm trying to get the point of the other post about being a writer who grew up with a Steinway.

[janx]

46. It's only a matter of emphasis. n/t

[janx]

82. Send me an email then.

I love to write and I love to teach, and I don't care where my students lie politically.

Crunchyfrog and I differ only a bit, but she was one of the BEST students in my class. She is great.

[Crunchy Frog]

114. Thank you janx!

I think you're great too!:loveya:

[janx]

27. Take a look:

http://www.losthorsepress.org/foodchain.html

[Old and In the Way]

5. I'll await answers, too.

I have my own theory as to the true intentions of SOME of the Dean supporters, but I best keep that to myself. :-)

[Crachet2004]

24. I am a Dean Supporter...

And I think we should all stick together, help elect the nominee, then start a new party. But get rid of Bush first.

Howard Dean could draw as many republicans as he does democrats, I think...and we need a real third party in this country to keep the other two honest.

My opinion of what happened to Howard, is that he was betrayed from within-Trippi, Grossman, you know, the take the money and run bunch.

They were establishment plants. They built him up so far, gained everyone's confidence, got all the discontent in one place, then slammed the movement into a brick wall. They gave bad advice and Dean took it. It was a setup. Then the press piled on...the establishment press.

But there will be another big election in two more years...time enough to consolidate and get ready. You know, take some congressional and senate seats, counties, state legislatures, maybe even a whole state. You know, be a real party.

Hey, they WANT Dean's movement destroyed. I wouldn't give them the satisfaction. And I sure wouldn't take the rap for Bush being reelected next time! Ralph is no solution, and Bush must go.

[liberalmike27]

104. Crachet

That is the silliest theory I've heard. You can search for mine, and other more reasonable theories, but clearly the "inside plant" theory is wrong. One of Trippi's problems with Dean was that he "didn't" take his advice, and usually the campaign paid.

But the culprits were the media, the DLC, the supposed left-wing pundits, and a bunch of Insider Democrats running negative commercials against him just before Iowa.

Unfortunately, they miscalculated about the electability, with or without Nader. But their miscalculation was what attracted so many recent converts to Nader. It's no coincidence that he entered the race just after Dean was finally polished off, the DLC still twisting the knife in Dean's back, blood of their betrayal flowing down his back.

[Crachet2004]

139. So Trippi's company didn't rip the campaign off for bad and...

over-priced campaign adds? And the timing of Grossmans leaving the campaign wasn't to do maximum damage in Wisconsin? Come on now! And if you are listening to Traitor-Trippi's spin, you probably believe William Kristol when he says they are more afraid of Edwards than Kerry! Use your head.

Neither the republican nor democrat party want a nonestablishment candidate or party in this country. No campaign falls apart from a position of overwhelming strength, like Dean's enjoyed, unless someone on the inside opens the gate and lets the enemy in.

All the individuals and entities you mention did contribute to his downfall, but only comprise the rest of the team piling on after the tackle is made! Our form of government in this country is popular oligarchy...you get to vote, but only for who the oligarchs run!

There can be factions in an oligarchy-and sometimes these factions may quarrel, but they will always unite to destroy truly independent parties and candidates. And I reject the meme that Dean supporters are flocking to Nader, as they are not. Nader's candidacy is the oldest trick in the book, and nobody is gonna fall for it again.

Nice try.

[Eloriel]

8. I suspect that what SOME Dean supporters are doing

is toying with your affections.

People's heads are exploding over Nader and it's damn funny to watch. Damn funny.

So go right ahead and have your hissy fits about Nader -- my guess it that that will keep it fun to watch. A steady stream of hilarity ....

:-)

[DemBones DemBones]

15. Heads are exploding at the thought that SOME people

would prefer to see Bush* win another term to electing a Democrat not of their choosing, which in almost all cases means "not Dean."

You can sabotage the Democrats but you can't expect us to like it or praise you for it. It would be the ultimate act of petulant immaturity.

[janx]

58. Unless we had a Steinway. In which case things would be

different...

!!

David Hadas, a guy who has taught the Bible as literatture at Washington University in St. Louis for over thirty years, is dying. He is dying with a great amount of dignity because his relatives and students keep coming to see him.

His doctor said that he should have been dead three weeks ago. He's not. He has too many visitors who are anxious to read to him and keep him company.

[Scott Lee]

71. You put Kerry in, you'll have a version of Bush

They are more alike than they're different on the main issues. Go check the record!

[Droopy]

18. Dean's supporters were really passionate about him

and I think they were really hurt by him losing. I think that's coming through in your post, Eloriel.

[Scott Lee]

22. ARE passionate about him. He's still there, you know.

And he's got the second highest delegate count, still. don't forget.

[Zomby Woof]

26. a DISTANT second

Very distant. Dean is vapor.

[w4rma]

31. Which is much much closer to winning than the guy in your sig. (n/t)

[Zomby Woof]

33. yep

But you never hear me whine and carp and moan like a baby about it either.

Plus, Dean was the frontrunner, and blew it. Smoked away that 40 million into vapor. That warms my heart, since I opposed his candidacy as much as I support DK's. :loveya:

[XanaDUer]

43. Ever notice, ZW, that whatever you say

they always swing in with a jab at DK?

:eyes:

GREAT debating technique.

[DemBones DemBones]

47. Yes, they forget that DK supporters aren't threatening to be spoilers

in November.

Hi, Liberty Chick! :hi:

[XanaDUer]

52. Hello!

:hi:

[Zomby Woof]

48. I set my watch by it

;-)

[NNN0LHI]

49. I don't care what no one says ZW

You got the best sig line on DU. No shit.

Don

Edit: Nice to see you back Mr. Bowden.

[Zomby Woof]

53. and you my friend

Are a fine example of why DU is the best forum on the 'net, no shit. :thumbsup:

[w4rma]

56. You are whining and carping right now, ZombyWoof. (n/t)

[Zomby Woof]

60. no, I am laughing and full of love!

I am also gloating and dancing on Dean's political grave. :loveya:

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

66. you big palooka!

:loveya: I love you too. *smooch*

[Scott Lee]

68. how many delegates has the elf from the Cleveland got?

Mphm! Cat got yer tongue? Orrrrrr have decided to change to Kerry? I thought you were a Kucinich supporter?

Well lets have some of that *ahem* Zomby twoof!

[Zomby Woof]

74. Here' s some truth

I am a DK supporter. But as I said to someone else earlier, I never made false claims about DK, his support, the media's relationship to him, or have I ever whined, bitched, moaned, and carped endlessly about it all, scapegoating everyone else and their supporters.

But Dean and his supporters have done all that, and more. They were the frontrunners. and by Thanksgiving, telling the rest of us to hang it up and get behind Dean.

I am also capable of posting more than just snark and bullshit, which you seem to be capable of posting nothing but. I have yet to see truth, or twoof, from any of your posts. I am patient, but not hopeful, that you can change and prove me wrong.

Now, when are YOU going to be honest and admit supporting Dean was a dumb mistake? He was an establishment K-Street insider candidate, whose insider staffers blew your 41 million away like so much play money. You can't "take back America!" with pikers like that on the trail.

With DK, he may not have the votes, or the delegates, but he has something Dean has never had: integrity and a conscience with a progressive record to match. No sealed records either. No waffling on Biden-Lugar and IWR. No accountability.

As for Kerry, if he gets the nod, I will vote for him, because I have brains enough to see he isn't Bush, or even close to being Bush. The rest of us will be one step closer to "taking back America" than you and other Dean people will be in 1,000 of your wildest wet dreams.

But since DK has outlasted Dean, I am sticking with DK, and you have what? No one.

Vapor.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmvapor...

[XanaDUer]

84. Good comback, but I am not sure it will

matter to someone who calls DK "the elf".

What response would matter?

Calling Dean Dr. Waffles-With-Vermont-Syrup?

:shrug:

[dsc]

112. Please either remove your post

or back it up. You wrote the following.

am a DK supporter. But as I said to someone else earlier, I never made false claims about DK, his support, the media's relationship to him, or have I ever whined, bitched, moaned, and carped endlessly about it all, scapegoating everyone else and their supporters.

But Dean and his supporters have done all that, and more. They were the frontrunners. and by Thanksgiving, telling the rest of us to hang it up and get behind Dean.

end of quote.

Your lack of the use of some, indicates we should read that as all. I want, without any excuses or alibis, citations of me doing any of the above.

[Maddy McCall]

123. God you're the best!

Love to read your tell-off posts.

;-) :yourock:

[DemBones DemBones]

Not many -- democracy can be SO untidy!

Everyone actually has an idea or two about how to vote. Not always coinciding with mine. Or yours.

Many people have said Kucinich is right but they didn't think he could win, which may be what many thought about Dean, too. They got some ideas out there, which is something, don't you think?

Dennis still has that Elfin Magic, though. :-)

[boxster]

30. They're not the only ones who are passionate about their candidates.

Though, many of them seem to believe that they're the only ones who are passionate about their candidate or who were inspired by him.

[Crunchy Frog]

73. That's the truth

I was, and still am more passionate and inspired about Clark than I ever imagined I could be about a political figure. I resent that my passion is somehow seen as being less valid than other people's passion.

[jonnyblitz]

29. people's heads exploding over Nader is sad.

they dont have much faith in their remaining DEM candidates do they if they believe Nader will ruin it all?

[edzontar]

142. Every time another of these whiny threads goes up

I laugh and jump for joy.

[Duder]

21. The Kerry Campaign: "The *Cockroach* Wing of the Democratic Party?"

I don't believe that Kerry can win, but it's always possible that Bush could lose.

[Scott Lee]

23. that's funny!

[Zomby Woof]

28. you nailed it about Dean's phoniness

But Nader is irrelevant, almost as irrelevant as Dean.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

32. The hysterical minority you are talking about is much smaller

than their shouting on DU would indicate.

[janx]

36. Those of us over 40 understand it.

Clark was thrown in to thwart Dean.

There's no doubt about it.

[Zomby Woof]

37. how about some evidence?

*crickets chirping*

[dsc]

54. why should she provide any

I have it on good authority that the posts have been deleted or that you won't change your mind anyway.

[Zomby Woof]

57. unlike others

I am open to evidence when one makes an assertion. :loveya: You big ol' Dean lug you! Give the Zomby a kiss, you rascal.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scott Lee]

70. B-b-but he's got da Zomby TWOOF!

do you need anything else? I mean besides some beer and porno flicks?

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unfrigginreal]

78. I've probably read most of the posts made by both of you

And you're claiming that his posts weren't as worthwhile as yours? If I were you, I wouldn't put it up to a vote.

[XanaDUer]

87. Now, you're not just saying that 'cause you support Dean, huh?

;)

[mitchum]

122. Of course that's why...

It amazes me how some can applaud while in a circle jerk...yet they do

[Zomby Woof]

95. do a search

Also, I have been published on Common Dreams and the Columbia University site, among others. As in, journalism.

I don't post too much worth a shit in GD2004, because it would be casting pearls before swine.

[unfrigginreal]

100. You wouldn't be the first journalist on this board to write crap

We've seen plenty of that during this campaign.

[XanaDUer]

106. Actually, he is a superlative writer...

I've read his work, off this board.

[Zomby Woof]

107. then I guess...

You supported the invasion of Iraq, school vouchers, and the GOP-led bankruptcy bill? That's just a few of my unpopular analysis subjects... unpopular with Republicans, that is.

Have you made a difference? Or are you just bitter about Dean? :loveya:

[Skip Intro]

141. Darn, no pearls for us :- (

How ever will we manage?

[janx]

103. yep

:loveya:

[DemBones DemBones]

45. Shouldn't people over 40 also understand

that if the Democratic nominee doesn't win, the GOP one does?

I started voting in 1968, and remember five earlier elections, all of them won by the Democrat or the Republican. What's going to change that run of the two parties THIS year?

[Adelante]

69. I'm over 40

Clark did accept the draft because he thought Kerry was going to lose, and at the time that's how it looked. His concern was that the commander in chief have foreign policy/national security stature and experience. Kerry doesn't have as much of that as Clark himself, but he has more than any candidate remaining in the field. Clark wanted to thwart Dean along with all the rest of the candidates, because in his judgment, this time has special demands that didn't exist pre-9/11. I agree with him. To say he was "thrown in" is silly and insulting. He was asked in and he stepped in. Please notice he did so after Bob Graham, the only other possible candidate according to Clark's national security requirement, did not fare well and stepped down. Obviously you believe differently, but Wes Clark is an honorable man and deserving of respect.

[AntiCoup2K4]

124. Then the General was right the first time.

Kerry will lose. Not because Dean supporters "want him to". Because he has NOTHING to beat Bush when he's been Bush's whore for the last three years.

[mountainvue]

102. I'm over 40 and I don't feel that way at all.

Please speak for yourself.:)

[Kipepeo]

38. I'll try to "fill you in"

I get the impression you are genuinely interested in why some of us supposed "fringe leftists" are so pro-dean and pro-nader yet suspicious of Kerry or Edwards (suspicious if not thoroughly repulsed...and I am the former if you are wondering). So I will respond in kind and hope some ass won't feel a need to make fun of me for it.

I will tell you honestly that on paper Kerry and a few others (especially Kucinich but you aren't really talking about him I don't think) matched my beliefs more than Dean did...but what won me over in the end was not on paper: it was in his persona. Can you honeslty tell me, even if you are a die-hard Kerry supporter that you believe he is telling you the truth? Do you believe he has convictions? Do you believe he is speaking from his heart and that when he speaks you are hearing something from within him that is connecting with you on an emotional level...like you have never seen from a politician before?

I felt that with Dean, and I had only felt that with so-called "fringe" candidates like Nader or Kucinich (no disrespect to Kucinich supporters, who I am feel a kinship with, but you know that the majority on this board and in the Democratic Party lump you in with the "fringe" just as they do Nader supporters) before. Here was a guy who had more than 5% and who I knew was dealing me a clean hand. What detractors labeled as his "flip-flops" was proof to me that given enough information he had an open mind that would allow him to change his mind toward the more progressive position...which I really value, considering that I was raised a die-hard southern-baptist republican and I've changed my position on virtually everything in the past 8 years...and for the better.

When he "flip-flopped" as the media put it, it was in such a way that could only paint him in a weird light, so why would he do that based on polls? I got the opinion that he never did anything based on polls. Kerry, on the other hand, is someone who I listen to and just hear empty sentences...strung together with no passion or honesty or directness...but in a calculated safe and poll-driven manner. Honestly? He bores me to no end. And it's NOT because I don't agree with what he's saying. I DO agree with most of it!!! God do I! And I wish that were enough. But it falls on my ears like a person taking their first 'foreign' language class, reading aloud from the textbook with no idea what they're saying.

In response to your question about money: I donated $25 to Dean, the only money I have given to a political campaign ever & it is a lot of money for me...but I am not somehow money-struck, as you suggest...I am not resisting Kerry or Edwards out of some misplaced fear of my money having gone to nothing. Rather...I HOPE that one of them will start speaking from the heart and will make me believe in them so much that I can get behind them with fervor and donate $25 in good conscience again.

[janx]

40. Thank you, sweetie. Thanks so much. n/t

[Old and In the Way]

110. Fair enough on your points.

Kerry will not win the most style points, but I've watched this man's career for 30+ years.....I know his convictions and beliefs in furthering the Democratic agenda are as true as anyone's in this race.

[ozone_man]

113. That was wonderful.

You expressed perfectly what it is about Dean that none of the other candidates possess. That directness, speaking from the heart. It's a shame that before 75% of voters have had a chance, the decisions are already made by the media and the DNC/DLC, who do not want to see change. This is why Dean was cut down before he could get too far. He Threatened the powers that be. One day, we will get there.

[LizW]

136. Beautiful response

I wish I had the ability to formulate such a rational, calm, and dead-on response to the craziness here.

You said it perfectly. :)

[dsc]

41. I would love Kerry supporters to tell me just how this is supposed

to make me want to do anything for Kerry.

[IndianaGreen]

44. I suggest you do as I do and save this thread

in order to remind yourself of the need to reform the Democratic Party by establishing a progressive counter to the DLC.

[bread_and_roses]

67. I would love someone to tell me

why a candidate's supporters in the very small universe of DU should impact on the decisions anyone makes about the national political scene.

[dsc]

72. with all due respect

that is what supporters are supposed to do, isn't it? Maybe I am missing something but I thought that advocating for your candidate was supposed to convince people to actually vote for them.

[PVnRT]

80. What a surprise

Someone else telling me my opinion doesn't matter. How very American of you.

[bread_and_roses]

140. I am utterly mystified by your response

My point was that I think that a decision about which candidate to vote for is ideally based on multiple sources of information; not on the behaviour of a few people on a message board.

[NNN0LHI]

88. Don't you understand after over 3 years of Bush the seriousness of this?

Don't you see that this is no time for Dem's to be having to try to convince you of the need to vote for Kerry or whoever the Dem nominee is. We are now past that fork in the road. You make your own choice of whether you want a Dem or 4 more years of Bush. There is nothing more I or anyone can say to change your mind at this point. Thats the deal I think?

Don

[dsc]

109. There are still two candidates (actually four candidates)

in the Democratic primary last I checked and my state hasn't voted yet. Or don't you give a damn about the primary?

[ozone_man]

117. Some would rather crown Kerry

and forget about the 75% of the voters who have not voted. We live in a sham of a Democracy controlled by the media and ruling elite (like Kerry).

[mattgabe]

128. Why do you assume

that this was written by a Kerry supporter? He says he was a Dean supporter.

Mama always said don't assume. It makes an ass out of u and me.

[dionysus]

55. umm

I am a Howard Dean supporter, and I'm not voting 3rd party, so please don't paint with such a wide brush.

You overgeneralize a bit I say

[Feanorcurufinwe]

61. It's that thing where a tiny minority shouts so loudly

that others begin to think they represent the majority.

[dsc]

75. Yeah just like when you called people who support Dean

NAZIs and no Kerry people took you on. It lead me to believe most of you think that.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

85. That is an absolutely false statement with no shred of truth.

[dsc]

105. Oh really

Not only did you post an article that did exactly that, when called on that behavior you defended it. Don't tell falsehoods to our faces. Some of us actually can remmeber things from week to week.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

115. You've got a star why don't you use the search function

and SHOW the post where I 'called Dean supporters NAZIS'.

That is false. And it is a shame that DU has degenerated to a point where you can spread such a despicable falsehood.

[dsc]

116. waa waa waa

You did it, you know you did it, and I don't feel like providing the evidence.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

118. Your statement is an evil malicious falsehood.

dsc, post 108 in this thread: "I am fed up with having posters tell stories they like about what I have posted. Either find some link to back this up or apologize."


dsc, it was a lot more pleasant around here while all those people were banned. Sorry you missed it.

[DemBones DemBones]

64. We need to hear from more Dean supporters like you, who are

not threatening to be spoilers. That would keep the broad brush from being used in painting the portrait of Dean supporters.

[Cassandra]

59. That's quite a strawman army you've got there.

" Dean and his rank'n'file were "true" Democrats, while everyone else was a Republican fraud."
"Fellow Democrats who weren't with Dean were labelled Republican cockroaches."
"Now, there are people with Dean avatars all over the place in this community making excuses for Ralph Nader, "
"Maybe cognititve dissonance is at work"
It certainly is for you. Where are you getting all this stuff?

[PVnRT]

79. Gee, I didn't know I was a Republican

Thanks for letting me know, so I know who to vote for this November.

Maybe you should write to the administrators and get me banned. I'm obviously a huge threat, right?

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

83. Oh really please illuminate us

Since you admit to posting under another name, and without telling us what the name is, I find it astounding you would discuss our ethics.

[JHBowden]

89. I don't question the ethics.

I question the intellect. Why Nader is even *considered* as an option by several vocal Dean supporters is beyond me, especially given how conservative Dean was as a candidate.

:dunce:

[dsc]

97. Please site one, just one post

anywhere, anytime, anyplace on this board, where I state, imply, or in any, way, shape or form suggest that I am voting for Nader. Either do so or apologize because that is just plain, totally, and utterly false. I have never, not even one time, stated, implied, or in any way suggested I would vote for Nader. You owe me a retraction and you owe it to me now. Not later.

[PVnRT]

99. He's not interested in facts

Only in smearing as many people as possible for little reason.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

120. Just show one word in the post you are responding to

that accuses you of what you are defending against. The fact is you are not mentioned. Why did you choose to take offense.

[dsc]

108. I am still waiting for that citation

I am fed up with having posters tell stories they like about what I have posted. Either find some link to back this up or apologize.

[janx]

93. I love you

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JHBowden]

91. Promoting GW Bush is an insult.

People know I'm right, or they would ignore it.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JHBowden]

98. Giving Bush two terms is an asshole thing to do.

Especially because your conservative candidate lost to a dude who was more liberal. Stalinists don't have a problem intensifying "contradictions." Of course, they naturally don't have a problem butchering millions of people either.

[PVnRT]

101. Wow. I didn't think people could be so ignorant

All Communists are genocidal Stalinists. Christ, is it possible for you to make an argument without histrionics?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

143. Well said. How do we avoid that?

the answer is obvious.

[unfrigginreal]

90. Damn, I didn't make the list

I'll try harder. I promise.

[mountainvue]

92. Well said.

The Clark people are some of the nicest I've met online so far.:)

[ModerateMiddle]

119. I read one of the many dissections

of the Dean campaign, and one point struck me as particularly poignant: Dean (and his campaign by extension) felt themselves to be above the laws of politics. So frequently he indeed seemed to be.

• Initially, his stand on guns was seen as "pragmatic" because it seemed that was one of the reasons that Gore lost in places like West Virginia. So everyone (I mean Dean people) said that his stand would make him electable in the South.
  
  
• After that disasterous MTP interview, he got more donations than ever before.
  
  
• Other things happened that should have been signals that there was something remiss with the candidate, but by then the "movement" to "take back the country" was in full swing, and each "gaffe" was explained as Dean not being an ordinary politician who is so careful about what he says. And the money flowed.
  
  
• Very reasonable political talking heads expressed concern about some of the gaffes and/or some of Dean's positions, and were summarily dismissed as "establishment whores".

Now, it seems that the same sense of denial that existed then - that the laws of politics don't apply - seems to have taken hold again. That change ISN'T incremental, that we can have wholesale revolution in the United States political system if only it weren't for the DNC/DLC/Kerry/Skull and Bones/take your pick.

[mitchum]

121. Kicking (light on the real cockroaches)

[grab bag]

125. While Dean was ahead??? He didn't lead in a single PRIMARY!!

Where is your head??

Dean lost every single PRIMARY he was in, HE WAS NEVER AHEAD!!
He was always trailing somebody, usually Kerry.

WAKE UP!! or will you go home and cry now??

[mitchum]

126. Wecome to DU, grab bag!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

127. Dean was only the frontrunner prior to a single vote being cast

[ScreamingMeemie]

131. The Dean campaign should no longer be such a topic of interest in

my opinion. Let the man be. In my opinion, they tore him down and I have no idea why they would continue to stab at him. :shrug: I guess he is a bit more of a threat than mnay insiders would like us to believe.

A Democratic Dean Supporting Mom. :hi:

[quaker bill]

132. And Dean supporters were Kool-Aid drinkers

The disdain that Dean supporters were greeted with here was only met in kind. The derision that is still being thrown in their direction by posts such as are prominent in this thread are being met in kind. Cute terms like cognitive dissonance do little to mask it.

To conclude that other candidates were more 'liberal' than Dean for the selected suite of 'issues' to be as charitable as possible, is a form of cognitive dissonance, or perhaps simple ignorance. A less charitable interpretation would suggest the spewing of Bush-enabler propoganda.

Balancing the budget is not conservative. It is common sense that would have resulted in economic justice. Instead, we will continue to take payroll taxes from the working poor to make up for the deficit required to subsidize the middle class tax cut.

No candidate that has signed on to "Progressive Internationalism" has any legitimate claim to term "liberal". Progressive Internationalism is based from the apriori concept of Manifest Destiny. In short, the concept that we have been granted in a "divine rights of Kings" sense the moral authority and in a "noblesse oblige" sense the moral responsibility to use our military strength to sort out the world to the benefit of humanity through the imposition of our uniquely higher moral values. Progressive Internationalism abruptly dismisses all liberal thought to the contrary as meaningless. Read the document, it is available on-line.

As the two remaining major candidates have signed on to this, there is no serious liberal contender for the nomination.

Dean supporters do not want another 4 years of Bush*. We just see that this outcome is now all the more likely because of the sort of misinformation and simple ignorance spewed by your post.

[Cheswick2.0]

135. Thanks QB

Do the new rules allow people to have actual opinions now?

[joyautumn]

133. did you steal

my tinfoil hat or something?

[lojasmo]

134. flame bait

This post is inflammatory, and should be locked. Good lord.

I was a Dean supporter because I need a Democrat (like PW) who isn't afraid to speak truth to power.

I supported Dean, Kucinich, and Braun. I thought among those three Dean had the best chance. Oh well.

Kerry and Edwards voting record during this administration shows their proclivity to roll over to repugs for political viability. Not admirable IMO.

Do I seem angry? I'm not.

Will i vote Dem in the primary? yes. Though I won't fault anybody for voting third party, voting a write-in or whatever. Frankly, the two top contenders make me sick...Oh well. I guess I'm a pragmatist.

ciao

[bitchkitty]

138. Wow -

You need to get a grip, sweetie. Dean supporters are not going to throw the election. If we lose it will be because Kerry couldn't cut it, not because Dean supporters are angry.

I actually believe that we might lose, I don't think Kerry could win. I believe that because he will probably be the nominee, that we are guaranteed four more years of Bush. I really can't stand Kerry, I think he's a prick to end all pricks, but will vote for him if I have to.

Also, this statement:

"Fellow Democrats who weren't with Dean were labelled Republican cockroaches."

Could you back that up with a link? Not to put too fine a point on it, I think you're being untruthful with this statement.