SIGH! The stupidest people in America pick our presidents

[many a good man]

38% of the voters are Democrats and 35% are Republican. That leaves 27% independents. Figure 10% of the independents are further right than repukes and 10% further left than Dems.

That leaves the deciding vote in the hands of people who are too stupid to be able tell any difference between between left and right. They can't find their ass with both hands and a flashlight. And they are the ones choosing the President for us. No wonder we are so screwn!

[Bitwit1234]

1. Add to that they are so impressed

with the starry eyed celebrity type they vote just because they have a jumping, bumping person speechfying on stage.

[oasis]

20. Style over substance. (eom)

[jody]

2. Is there any difference between the left and right on major issues? Can politicians or experts

present a rock-solid argument pro or con for solutions to those issues?

I hear from candidates mostly "spend, spend, spend" with little assurance expenditures will solve the problem.

What are the most important major issues on your personal agenda and could you convince the 7% Independent group of voters that your solutions to those major issues should become law?

If you can't convince the 7% Independents to support your position, then you and I are in the same boat and so are all the candidates and political advisers.

[many a good man]

4. Are you kidding me? The differences are enormous

One side wants to destroy the New Deal, Medicare, government regulation of business and the other side defends it. One side wants to bomb the rest of the world into submission and the other wants cooperation. One side wants to cement white/male/Christian supremacy and the other side wants civil rights and justice. Do I really need to go on?

[jody]

25. Wait 50 years and then reply based on 5 decades of experience. n/t

[many a good man]

33. I have hundreds of years of experience

I have been voting for 27 years and I am a student of history. The differences between the parties now are the sharpest they have been my entire life.

[jody]

36. I've been voting twice as long and I disagree. Democrats control congress and refuse to fight Bush.

Have a nice evening. :hi:

[Occam Bandage]

7. Sounds like you're a libertarian.

Usually the "both sides are THE SAME OH NOES" people are far-left. Not often a far-right one comes 'round to play.

[jody]

24. Wait 50 years and then reply based on 5 decades of experience. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

27. In what way does that remotely begin to address my post?

"Hey, sounds like you're a libertarian. Funny, most people who can't tell left from right 'round here are so far left they've lost sight of the differences; not often you see one that far to the economic right.'

"I bet I'm older than you!"

[jody]

30. How does your reply remotely begin to address #2? Older than I, then you are in your 80s. n/t

[flvegan]

3. Dennis Kucinich/The Rock '08?

What we need is an electric personality to snag that 7%, right?

"Can you smeeeeeeelllllll what America's got cookin'?"

Kucinich has the values and experience. The Rock has the personality and fame. Other points for The Rock:

*all those movies he's made? you know he must dig guns;

*he's black;

*he's a tall, good looking guy;

*"Dwayne Johnson"? How much more American does it get?

*we've already proven that the dumbest actors can be elected to high office;

*we know he's never had an abortion;

*he runs a charity for sick kids

*he was known as "The People's Champion" AND as "The Corporate Champion"

This is a no brainer, obviously. Kucinich/Rock '08. Only way we'd lose is if the R ticket chose Hulk Hogan or Stallone for the VP slot.

[Bucky]

9. "smeeeeeeelllllll"?

smeel?

[blindpig]

5. Oh, you must be talking about the voters.

Yep, anybody who thinks that their vote means anything, particularly after the past 20 years, has got to be flat out dumb.

It required a bit of a journey down the river Denial but I finally got it. Half of the electorate gets it.

Politics is about a whole lot more than elections, horse races, dog & pony shows.

Oh, that's not what you meant?}(

[bunnies]

6. Get a clue.

The vast majority of independents I know simply dont want to belong to either party. Because they're stupid? Not hardly. In fact my experience is exactly the opposite.

Have you considered that some people are just fed up with the two party status quo? Have you considered that some people refuse to be taken for granted by either Democrats OR Republicans? Have you considered that some people want politicians to make an effort to get their vote?

Or is it just more fun to post insults that have absolutely no basis in fact. Independents read this board too my friend. Way to win them over.

[many a good man]

32. I respect a lot of independents

If you read the OP closely you could see it was not a broad brush. Watch a Peter Hart focus group on C-SPAN some time. I'm talking about people who can't identify the most basic elements of politics or issues.

At one time I could see it making sense to switch between Republicans and Democrats some times. Before the great realignment that took place following Democrat's championing of civil rights forty years it was commonplace to see some Republicans more liberal than Democrats and some Democrats more conservative than Republicans based on what part of the country you were in. There was a wide variety of issues that had conservative and liberal gradations. You could be conservative on some economic issues but liberal on some social issues and vice verse.

The partisan lines have been drawn much clearer in the past 30 years. The Republicans have become much much more hard right. There is a very sharp difference in most issues nowadays.

In healthy democracies the electorate will go left for a while, and after they put in reforms benefitting workers and the public interest and are in power for a while and start getting corrupt, they are voted out and the right is put into power. They put in place policies to strengthen business but after a few years they go too far and the left is brought back.

In this country the pendulum has gotten stuck to the right and its not moving back.

[Occam Bandage]

8. Yes, centrists are simply too stupid to slavishly dedicate themselves to an ideological system.

Damn them, always trying to decide for themselves on the issues.

("Hey, stupid, vote for me!" is unconvincing)

[provis99]

10. actually, the OP is quite accurate

the 7% of voters who consider themselves strict Independents are those voters who are most ignorant of politics. I've done considerable work on strict Independents. Very few of them can even name the Vice-President, and they are basically independents because they have no idea what either party stands for. They cannot name a single issue either party stands for, nor can they associate candidates with issue positions. Issues tend not to matter to them anyways; they tend to vote solely on superficial things, like whether a candidate "looks Presidential", or has a nice name, or shook their hand, etc. These results on the strict independents have been confirmed in the U.S. electorate ever since Campbell, Converse, Stokes, and Miller's groundbreaking work, The American Voter, in the late 1950's. Since the partisans and independent-leaners votes tend to cancel each other out, it is the 7% of the stupidest voters who decide which way the elections go. American democracy truly is rule by the stupid.

[bunnies]

12. Based on what?

Can you provide a link to anything that supports any of these numbers or claims?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

15. My experience mirrors yours

Courting Independents is a waste of time IMHO, unless your candidate has some superficial feature (and we're talking some really stupid stuff here) that might appeal to them. Most of them don't know a damn thing and can't be bothered to learn. The best strategy is to get the Dem vote out and hope that the ignoramuses jump on the bandwagon.

[Evergreen Emerald]

11. I was thinking that just the other day

And that was after reading the posts on DU.

[many a good man]

34. Ouch! That was harsh!!

Surely you jest!}(

[aikoaiko]

13. yeah, but look at DU, we'd vote for someone who has no interest in being President in 2008.

;)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

14. Much as I think the 2 party system is flawed, I can't STAND most independents

I couldn't agree more.

My experience is that they usually can't be bothered to find out what the parties stand for, preferring instead to adopt a smug posture of superiority to those of us who identify with a party. It'd be one thing if they did study the positions of both Republicans and Democrats carefully, and decided that neither one worked for them. But what most (not all but most) do is apply the broad stereotypes* of the MSM to each party and decide that they don't want to be associated with either, without any actual investigation. It's lazy and cowardly, IMHO. But worse than that, it's laziness and cowardice disguised as thoughtfulness. I actually have more respect for Republicans. Or people who are Dem or Repug simply because their parents were, which is also lazy and cowardly but at least not pretending to be otherwise.

*Yes, I'm stereotyping and "broadbrushing" too. I don't care.

[bunnies]

17. Heres to hoping then that your candidate is not Barack Obama

As I would hate for your to feel sullied by a NH victory that will only be won with the support of a bunch of lazy, thoughtless, cowards. They are, after all, the largest voting block in NH... and as it stands, they're overwhelmingly in his corner.

In fact no Dem will win this state without the support of independents. Oh well. Keep on trashing them though. Insulting stereotypes are so cool.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

19. Like NH is going to be soooo pivotal in the General.

What do y'all have, one electoral vote? :eyes:

Don't let being an early Primary state go to your heads, now. You are an important state now because DEMOCRATS in the Primary will be choosing their candidate partly based on what you do. After that, you are but a dinky little state in the shadow of the heavily populated swing states. No matter who the nom is, s/he will be spending the vast majority of their time and money wooing a segment of people in those states who can't be bothered to study the issues and will respond to whatever shiny object is placed before them. While deriding people like you and me for getting personally involved because "all politicians are the same anyway!". I hope they vote for Obama or whoever the Dem nom is and I'll work my damnedest to convince them to, but I'll never respect their lack of interest in their own government.

[bunnies]

21. Im glad you dont think your candidate needs to do well in the NH primary.

Oh and look at that... you stated in another thread that you work on the Obama campaign. Is it the official campaign position that NH can fuck off? Or that independents are thoughtless lazy cowards? Im certain there are many Obama supporters in NH that would *really* like to know.

But hey... "Obama campaigner says NH independents are thoughtless lazy cowards" probably does a good amount of damage in itself.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

22. I said General, not Primary. And can Independents vote in your Primary?

If they can, then I'm glad that they support Obama. At any rate, the results of your primary will influence other DEMOCRATS (because in most places only Dems can vote in the Dem primary) to pick a certain candidate. It will be DEMOCRATS, not Independents, who will be making the decision. After that it's General season and NH will be lucky to get one visit by whomever the Dem or Repub nom is. And you know it. Your state is not being insulted so get over yourself.

My comments about most Independent voters stand, though the ones in NH may be exceptional. Having spent much time talking to them here in AZ, I can tell you that they have nothing but disdain for people who care about politics, like you and me. So I don't feel bad at all for insulting them. Either pick a party or have good, substantive reasons why you can't support either. Don't hand me uninformed cliches about "they're all the same!" and expect me to respect you. I've seen very few independent voters volunteer for a campaign or become active for any local cause. The majority of them are "low efficacy" voters, meaning they only vote in general elections. They rarely vote in our state primaries (they can vote in any state primary in AZ, but not the Presidential).

But the worse thing about Independents, whether in my state or yours, is that in the past few years they've been swinging our way. 70% of independents in AZ voted for Dem candidates in 2006. Polling shows that they identify with the Dems on the majority of social and economic issues. So why aren't they Dems? Probably because they've bought into RW propaganda about Democrats and don't want to be associated with us. So what, you say, at least they vote Dem so why does it matter? I'll tell you why: Because how many Dems you have in your state determines how much money the party raises and the resources allocated to get Dem candidates elected. These lazy, cowardly independents want to benefit from Dem policies, via our party apparatus, but don't want to become Dems and actively participate.

[bunnies]

23. Well now I see where some of the confusion lies.

You were talking about the General, I was talking about the Primary and Yes... Independents can vote in either primary here. Maybe our independents differ from other states for that reason. They're actually very politically involved and they definitely do vote. So while I have no doubt that some of them fit your characterization, they would definitely be exceptions to the rule in NH. Another thing about this state is that when an Indie votes in the primary, his/her party affiliation is automatically changed to reflect their vote. They might be indie when they go in... but they're either D or R when they come out. And unless they manually change registration, thats the way it stays.

As far as getting over myself... I never said that I felt my state was insulted. My state doesnt mean shit in the GE... believe me I'm well aware of that. And other than influencing other states, NH doesnt mean shit in the primary either, really.

And yeah... just like you I really wish they'd chose a frigging side. I cant even begin to imagine why they wont. I think some people here just want to keep their primary voting options open. And some just want to be "independent" for independents sake. We're talking about a state that has the right to revolution built in to our constitution. But as for the ones who cant seem to educate themselves enough to know the difference between parties... I agree with you... they totally suck.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

26. I'm so sorry for being flippant with you. I can see we're not at odds.

States like NH and VT are unique, in that independent candidates can actually get elected to local offices, and even the US Senate (Sanders). That's a crucial difference that shows that your independent voters are probably a different breed than in most of the rest of the country. No independent candidate stands a chance in hell here, despite nearly a third of our voters being no party designated. It's very frustrating here in AZ to try and persuade these voters (and indy candidates) that if they want meaningful change at the local and national level, they need to stop listening to MSM jerks who treat every election like a partisan horserace. They need to stop fearing the dreaded "D" label and reregister so we can get the numbers and the money we need in this state to get more progressives elected. It would be one thing if they didn't want to be Dems because of the open state primaries but so few of them request ballots for them that it can't be that.

I'm tired of it and I've gotten to where I hate canvassing independent voters more than any other kind, even Republicans. I'll keep doing it because we need their votes but if I had a dollar for every clueless git who smugly informed me "I won't pick a party because I'm disgusted with the lot of you!" I would be a wealthy woman. If both parties suck so bad, become a Green or Libertarian. Or start your own party. But no, they never want to do that. They want to piss and moan and be the "undecided voters" who get their noncommittal asses kissed by the candidates and the MSM.

Anyway, my apologies and thanks for letting me vent. :hi:

[bunnies]

29. No need for apologies catburglar!

I was more than a little flippant myself. And Im proud of us for being able to bring our chat full circle. :hug:

Putting myself in your shoes, I can totally understand why you would feel the way you do about Indy voters. In fact, your second paragraph made me laugh a little since it so seems like something I'd say. I don't envy your situation at all... well, except that you live in Arizona. I really hate winter. Winter sucks.

Anyway, I think another thing about NH is that a lot of people here *really* could go either way re: Ds vs. Rs. I guess they're 'centrists' in the truest sense of the word... but now that I think about it... hows that even possible? How the hell can they vote for McCain in '04, but vote for Obama now? Shit. Maybe you're right. Maybe they dont know as much as I thought.

:hi:

[rasputin1952]

16. Well...since we consistently have less than 50% of

eligible voters going to the polls anyway, far less than any other nation that has open elections, it is not surprising to me at all that we have had some pretty poor people running things in the past, and most likely into the future.

As opposed to anything else, I think the nation has a severe case of apathy when it comes to elections....and two year Primary cycles don't help matters much.

Having served on Election Boards, done my stints at Polling places, counted ballots and always carry and distribute Voter Registration Cards, (caveat: I take Voter Registration so seriously, that when I am asked by someone filling them out, "what party should I pick?", I tell them I cannot nor would I, suggest a party; although I sure wish I could...:D ), and co-ordinate Election Day rides for shut-ins and the elderly, I know from experience, that it is difficult to get people to cast a ballot.

It takes serious time to explain that even if they don't vote for a national candidate, there are generally a lot of local items they can vote on get direct benefit from...:)


GET OUT THE VOTE!

:patriot:

[Didereaux]

18. WRONG! the stupidest LET them pick the president by not voting!!!

[Elspeth]

28. That 7% matches the "Elvis percent". 7% of any poll group believes that Elvis is still alive

And a good portion of those believe that if you send Elvis a letter, he will send one back.

[snowbear]

31. Are those the actual political affiliation statistics?

I knew there were more registered Democrats in the U.S. than Republicans (or at least that's what the media always says) ... but is there any current data that has the updated numbers?

[many a good man]

35. Pretty close on party affiliation

Those are the last numbers I've seen. Give or take a few percent. Usually Dems are a few percent higher, probably even more since 2006. The rest are independents, but I have no idea how many lean blue or red or how many of them comprise the total drooling moron class.