Clark would have been a master against Bush

[DianeG5385]

We lost a golden opportuntiy to elect a truly great president

[KissMyAsscroft]

1. I agree....

Clark entered the race way too late, and it's a pity he didn't give better stump speeches. I think he failed to "generate excitement" and although I'm a soild Dean supporter I would have gladly pulled the lever for Clark.

Now I sort of have to hold my nose and pull the lever for Kerry.

[Donna Zen]

3. How many times did you get to see Clark?

Just wondering?

[Jai4WKC08]

6. I dunno...

I saw an awful lot of Clark rallies with an awful lot of people fired up. Maybe not the same TYPE of excitement that Dean generated. Maybe he appealed to a different type of voter (you know, as a first choice). I say that cuz I never could relate to Dean, but I'd follow Clark into hell itself.

But you're right that he entered too late. It was a gallant effort tho. He did better than quite a few more seasoned politicians who'd been at it a lot longer.

[roscoeroscoe]

2. i would still love to see clark as v.p.

one of the great disappointments of election 2000 was leiberman's very poor performance, especially in debate with cheney. what a loser.
i'd love to see a strong vp candidate and especially would feel great about clark. let's see it happen!

[dae]

4. Certainly no argument from me. Hopefully, he will have a meaningful

role in the upcoming Democratic administration.:)
:dem:

[laruemtt]

5. absolutely, and

i for one don't seem to be "getting over" him. no one else comes close. how the f did we let him slip away? i'm so despondent am even flirting with the idea of nader....

[Adelante]

7. flirting with the idea of nader

Get ahold of yourself, laruemtt! ABB all the way now. :hug:

[BootinUp]

20. You are almost out of it then

I had strange Nader thoughts too, thats the bottom, you are about to recover :)

[Crunchy Frog]

53. I did my Nader thing in 2000.

There's no way I'm making that mistake again.

[mikehiggins]

48. A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. ABB Forever! eom

[Maccagirl]

8. Sigh

A golden opportunity indeed-but if the Dems are smart-he'll have a very important role in the election and new administration. Oh-when I think of what he would have done against *-it drives me insane!

[aquart]

9. Whatever.

Now how about dealing with what we have?

[laruemtt]

10. dealing with what we have -

it's what we've been herded into. our chains have been pulled once again. i've gotta go meditate and get my head together. see you guys soon.

[bowens43]

11. The last thing this country needs

is to have a general in the oval office. The fact that so many were willing to turn over the oval office to a career military man with a distinct lean to the right , speaks volumes about the decline of the Democratic party and it's ideals. We lost an opportunity to move our party even further to the right, to marginalize the party base while opening our arms to disgruntled republicans and conservatives. Luckily , the people saw the general for what he was, an empty uniform who would do or say anything to further his own interests.

[GiovanniC]

13. I Never Cease to Be Amazed

At the ignorance a lot of anti-Clark display regarding Clark's positions. Clark was among the most liberal of the candidates, and among the most electable as well.

[arewethereyet]

14. didn't seem all that electable in the primaries

not sure why that would change

[Skwmom]

21. Maybe you should ask

why Bush supporters voted for Edwards in WI, TN and other open primaries (hint to take Clark out of the race).

[arewethereyet]

24. or to hobble Kerry and make him spend money

Even they could see that it was only Edwards who could mount a credible effort against Kerry.

[Donna Zen]

16. One out of every four

have been generals...I seen the count at 11 total. Of course having all them chicken hawks has certainly kept the peaceful. You just missed having someone who would cut the military budget...that is what you just missed. And they were blind and would not see...

Clark's issues from speeches, interviews, and position papers:


Something Worth Fighting For:

1. Government Accountablity

2. People before the powerful

3. Free but Fair trade with emphasis on the rights of workers, human rights, and the environment.

4. A progressive and fair tax system

5. Protecting the Constitution and the Environment for ourselves and our heirs

6. An informed electorate educated by fair and honest public dialogue

7. Transparent government

8. Protection of voting rights--paper verification for electronic voting.

9. A commitment to insure all Americans equal rights under the law

10. Courts peopled by those sworn to uphold the law as opposed to advancing
ideologies.

11. A government that provides opportunities for its citizens to serve.

12. International law trumps diplomacy; diplomacy trumps force. Force only, only, only, as a
last resort.

13. A multilateral foreign policy which includes both hard power and soft power.

14. People over partisanship

15. When you can do good, you should

16 Programs with a view to the future, not just the next election cycle.

17. Living our family values by promoting our citizens potential with support for public & college education, health care and jobs.

18. Government promoting and encouraging inquiry to develop
alternative solutions for energy independence and high tech
job creation

19. Recognition that diversity is our greatest strength

20. Fulfilling our commitments to America’s veterans and all
other men and women who serve our country.

[BootinUp]

22. I like this Donna

I don't see anything I would change right off. Nice work actually.

[Donna Zen]

35. Thanks Jim!

I mean, if you have a cause you should be able to define what it is. I would love to have some input from the other grasssroot supports too. To me it seems that the DNC etal liked the grassroots because of $$$$$$ and free labor, but they are not ready to listen to our ideas. Sooooo....we organize not agonize and find people who are running who will listen, who will be responsive to what we believe. With a blog like Clark's we have much to offer a candidate, but only, only, only if they represent us. In critical mass with all of the other roots, we could blow them away. "The Moveable Phonebank"

That's why I was glad to hear that Clark never expected our "roots" to roll into Kerry's campaign, just because gave his endorsement. I am not someone's pocket change to be left on the counter by any candidate.

Since we appear to be fractured and leaderless, I hope that people come to their senses and understand that they really DO have the power. "We may be termites, but together we can bring their house down." (F. Kennedy)

[Adelante]

41. That's the ticket, DZ

"organize not agonize"

As well as vote those Bush bastards outta there!

[shivaji]

46. Obviously Clark's message did not catch on.....

may be Kerry sabotaged Clark....
No matter how good your agenda, political experience helps sell it.
Clark had little.
Media neglevted him because of him starting late and bypassing Iowa.
They figured he was not a serious contender.
The General vs. Lieutenant fopa hurt the most, I think. Damn Dole.

[mikehiggins]

49. The media carpetbombed Clark. They only neglected the positive

things about his campaign.

This was a deliberate campaign to derail Clark and it succeeded.

Maybe someday they'll let us know why they decided we shouldn't have the right to have Clark as our candidate for President.

It's all right though. The media obviously knows better than us voters.

[Crunchy Frog]

58. The corporate media is owned by repugs.

They knew that Clark would be Bush's worst nightmare if he could actually get the nomination, despite his being a political neophyte.

They wanted to make damned sure that they got a nominee that they thought Bush could easily beat. It remains to be seen whether Kerry can actually pull off a win. I'm pretty sure that the owners of the corporate media think he will be pretty easy to take down when the time comes.

I pray that I'm wrong about that.

[Crunchy Frog]

55. Yes, all of those awful right wing positions

What is our party thinking, even being willing to consider such a reactionary? I just don't even know what the world is coming to anymore.:eyes:

[Adelante]

29. Bah

You don't know what you're talking about. :eyes:

[Crunchy Frog]

59. I think some people just derive

some sadistic pleasure from rubbing salt in other peoples wounds. That's the only explanation that I can come up with for some peoples behavior on here.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

36. How pitiful

to diss someone because he chose to serve his country for over 30 years.

Speaks volumns about why Democrats loose elections.

[Shanty Oilish]

54. Still making sense, bowens?

A career military man with no political credentials, suddenly starts parroting the straight Democratic line, which he never did before in all his life...and you think maybe he has selfish motives?

He left service (under a cloud) four years ago. Nobody can point to a single thing he did or said, since then, that would suggest he's a Democrat---until he decided to try for the presidency. Even then he hesitated, clearly seeking the most effective track for his race. For months, interviewers pressed him to acknowledge he was a Democrat; why would he not?

In fact he emitted high praise of Bush and his team, five months after Bush stole the election. Empty suit worshippers can't explain it away. Politically, his word is all anyone has to go on. His entire campaign, his claim to be a Democrat with standard Democratic principles, rests on his words.

He was a gift, all right. A Trojan horse.

[dennis4868]

12. Yes....

Clark would have been a master against Bush. I agree. But more importantly, Clark would have made a GREAT president. He not only was a general, 4 star at that, but he is brigt, a rhodes scholar, and a man of his word who truly wanted to do good for this country. It took alot of guts to run for president when you have ZERO experience in politics! I liked Clark because he was a dem who would not take any crap from anyone, unlike many of the other dems out there now!

[janx]

15. Clark was put in to take Dean out.

So you not understand this?

[Donna Zen]

18. I am a founder of the draftclark movement:

Are you accusing me? This myth that is being perpetrated is not only foolish on the face of it, it is insulting to those of us who understand and believe that Wesley Clark was/is the best candidate to be offered to this country in years.

Clark is Clark. An amazing person who never did anything to you, never would, and certainly is no one's stalking horse. So why slime him with this rumor grounded on nothing but fear. He and his supporters worked their tails off, and that had nothing to do with Dean.

[BootinUp]

26. Like a puppet or a zombie then?

he had no will of his own I guess.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

39. Dean took Dean out

Hard for some to swallow but true...too much anger for most folks to want to have sitting in the oval office.

[Adelante]

42. Janx, I just responded in another thread

And I don't intend to keep repeating myself. I wish you would do the same. You've made this statement again and again. It is false.

[roguevalley]

56. show me the facts. easy to say, can't be proved. either put facts on the

table or go play some place else. I like dean, especially
now with his class act in defeat, but this is uncalled for.

[BootinUp]

17. Is this another crying thread?

I got to stop coming to these. :)

on edit: Actually not, looks like a worthwile discussion.

[Donna Zen]

19. No tears here!

So...do you like the 20 points? They are still in draft form and open to suggestions.

[MrSlayer]

23. Yes. I seem to be getting sadder about it rather than over it.

As the weeks go on I lament his loss even more. He would have been the best President in a hundred years, if not ever.

[democratreformed]

27. I wonder why that is.

I miss him more every single day. I think mine is because I just don't have the faith in victory that I would have had with him. I just can't bring myself to trust in the others like I did with him. I have been watching more television than before (which was basically none). Every time I watch, I get this feeling of hopelessness and feel that our candidate is going to end up being quashed just like Wes Clark was.

[LouisFC]

30. I don't know why

but I'm right there with ya...

[BootinUp]

31. Even so

even if we don't think we are going to win, we need to stick together and help in ways we can to get Bush out. Don't get sad get mad again.

[democratreformed]

33. Jim, I am mad

but I am scared too. Scared of failure and scared of these feelings of irrelevance that I've had for the last couple of weeks. The hardest thing for me was truly feeling like I was making a difference only to have it come crashing down. I was so naive and I have definitely learned alot. I plan on staying involved, especially at the local and state level, but, like many, I just can't care about these primaries any more.

[BootinUp]

34. understand

I have had the same feelings, and still occasionally they come back. But no matter what some may say or think about the Clark campaign it was anything but irrelevant. Did you see the recent OP-ed article about Clark in the NYT. He made a huge difference for the democratic party this year. Bringing back foreign policy and National Security to the party as issues we can lead on. Take some comfort in that, he did have an effect and so did you.

[democratreformed]

40. Thank You, Jim

Do you know what has me so bothered today? I was stupid and watched CNN and MSNBC for a little while. The most talked about thing was the letter Kerry sent to Bush about his support of veterans. Of course, the Repubs were saying that since the Democrats brought up AWOL, the other side was justified in attacking Kerry on Vietnam and homeland security. There was lots of talk about the service issue. I could just see all this backfiring and causing our candidate to look bad.

I know - I was stupid for watching them. But, then again, this is what average normal people watch. I also watched a show where they had four governors - Richardson, Granholm, Barbour, and I forgot the last one. Same stuff. Our governors would try to talk about how hard the states have it and the others would shoot it down and start bashing Kerry. Barbour even said that he is getting MORE money for education in his state. Ha! I don't believe that one for a minute - at least not that it is coming from the federal government. But, some people won't know which side to believe.

I guess what I'm saying is that I hope the national security issue doesn't backfire. I hope that our message is getting out. I hope people realize that his president cares more about waging war that working for his own country. I hope they listen when our people say that this administration is more worried about hospitals and schools in Iraq than they are in our own healthcare and education. Because you and I both know that it is oh so true.

I also heard one of them say that he has talked to four different Republicans "on capital hill" that are definitely scared of having to run against Edwards. Can you see that? I sure can't. I am ever fearful that they will be successful in manipulating the outcome of this election in a variety of ways.

[BootinUp]

44. With so many people

getting involved this time I don't think we can loose. Combine that with the amazing incompetence from the WH lately.

After the convention we will all want to help any way we can, it will just be a natural reaction.

[democratreformed]

45. I know that you are right.

But I am a little fearful of the overconfidence I see in some people too. I don't think we can afford to be overconfident and that we need to be prepared for a long hard fight. After all, we have many things to fight - the media, voter apathy, BBV, etc.

Thanks for talking to me tonight. I feel better already.

[Crunchy Frog]

60. I've never felt so much like

I was at the mercy of a monolithic media entity with it's own agenda, which is to destroy everything that I believe in. I have felt all along that this entire primary season was completely media orchestrated.

The media that we have now makes me feel like I'm living in the Soviet Union. I literally can barely even stand to turn on my TV anymore, and I used to be a TV addict.

[Paradise]

25. And with 9 months for America to get to know him,

he would have won!

[Donna Zen]

28. Wes 101

"You will determine whether rage or reason guides the United States in the struggle to come. You will choose whether we are known for revenge or compassion. You will choose whether we, too, will kill in the name of God, or whether in His name, we can find a higher civilization and a better means of settling our differences."

~ Gen. Wes Clark (Ret.) May 2002 Seton Hall Address

[democratreformed]

43. Lord, that's an inspiring quote.

I was so looking forward to his administration. His depth amazes me. Why couldn't others see it?

[Crunchy Frog]

61. I know what you mean.

There were times when I would be watching him and just wanted to scream at my TV "WHY CAN'T OTHER PEOPLE SEE THE SAME THING THAT I SEE?"

Unfortunately, I think they just made sure that he didn't have enough television exposure for people to really get a good look at him.

[RichM]

32. Actually, he was no big deal, & you're making way too much of it.

Clark ran an honorable campaign. He played no dirty tricks (unlike Kerry) and took no low swipes at fellow Dems (unlike Kerry). He had on the other hand no novel ideas (just like Kerry), & was not a particularly good speaker (like Kerry).

More importantly, his overall political analysis was rather standard stuff. He was (mostly) against the Iraq invasion, but intended to win the occupation. This made him somewhat better than Kerry, who didn't even have the decency to oppose the invasion.

Clark still doesn't understand that the war in Vietnam was a crime against humanity; ditto for the Reagan wars in Central America. Clark is supportive of the School for the Americas. These positions are not surprising from a career bigshot in the military. They're not surprising, and they're not justifiable, either.

Clark was a basically decent sort, who supported progressive taxation, was socially liberal, and does indeed see that Bush has set the country on a track that will lead to disaster. All in all, he was not terrible as a candidate. He was quite decent, and not close to being the worst of the original 10 Dems. He wasn't close to being the best, either.

Most of his candidacy rested on image - the uniform, the fine resume, the nice smile. The fact that he winds up endorsing a mediocrity like Kerry is not to his credit.

[Donna Zen]

37. Sorry you missed him.

"...imagine what we could accomplish if we're not worried who gets the credit." WC

[KittyWampus]

38. Not A Good Speaker? Maybe That's Subjective

But there are A LOT of people who would disagree with you.

The SOA no longer exists except in the minds of the Left's version of Abortion Protestors.

Clark had the most Progessive Tax Policy, Department of Foreign Assistance (like Department of Peace)....

And as far as VietNam... Career Military of the caliber of Clark do not do POLITICS. Clark stayed in after Viet Nam and rebuilt and modernized the military.... and HIS focus was on the troops and not weapons systems.

[Leilani]

47. Don't tell me we're back to the SOA

The only GOOD thing acout Clark not getting the nomination, is that
I thought I wouldn't have to hear about the School of the Americas.

Until the Dems get some foreign policy & national security chops, they will continue to be a minority party.

Unlike somw people here at DU, most Americans do not hate the military, in fact, they respect them.

[RichM]

51. Psst - you are miles off the point.

Ever heard of the "military industrial complex" (MIC)? No? I didn't think so. Well, this is a secret, so don't tell anyone: The MIC has grown too big, and it's very, very dangerous.

Here's another secret: US society is suffering from a disease called "militarism." Among other things, what happens when you have that disease is you start invading & occupying countries you have no right to invade or occupy.

To be aware of the secrets I've just shared with you, and to be plenty concerned about them, is NOT the same thing as "hating the military." Only a complete ignoramus would use a phrase like that to refer to an opposition to militarism & the MIC.

[Leilani]

57. I will overlook your sarcasm

& point out that Wes Clark, as a member of the MIC, wanted to reform it, & would have been the best person to do it.

Not only did he know where all the skeletons were hidden, it would take a person from that establishment to have the credibility to help reform it.

The majority of your fellow Americans are not ready for Dennis K & his Dept. of Peace. I do not opine on the wisdom or folly of that fact, but only to it's veracity.

Finally, I would like to point out that the people most opposed to the illegal Iraq war, were the uniformed people, who at great risk, spoke out against the PNAC plan.

As Gen Anthony Zinni said, "Iraq was a brain fart."

[Crunchy Frog]

62. Well, Wes Clark was the only one

who was even really talking about the MIC and getting it's power under control. I doubt that any other of our candidates would be able to even think about limiting the power of the MIC. That was probably one of the reasons his candidacy was torpedoed, he threatened too many powerful interests.

Oh, and U.S. society, particularly Democrats seem to suffer from this disease of equating service in the military with being militaristic. If you make that equation, you should love the Bush administration. Almost none of them have any history of military service at all. That should make them unmilitaristic enough to satisfy even your stringent standards.

[mikehiggins]

50. Rich, the whole point of the Clark campaign was that he was a guy

who could beat Bush. That was it. Simple as that.

He turned out to be a great guy, as it happened, but ABB people like me could have cared less at the outset. We went to Clark because the rest of the Democratic field gave us the screaming meemies.

Still do.

I have yet to encounter anyone whose political opinion I respect who claims Kerry or Edwards have a chance of winning in November.

So, nothing has changed from when I first started supporting Wes Clark, except that we have lost the best chance we had of saving the republic from four more years of Bush.

This is only my opinion, of course. I'm not a bigtime newsreader like Bob Novak or _ucker Carlson but I'll bet you things prove me right.

Kerry will get the nod and then somewhere along the line something will pop out of the woodwork and all that will remain will be a Viking funeral for our chances to win.

Simple as that.

[2004Donkeys]

52. Like calling Kerry a junior officer wasnt a low swipe?

n/t

[RafterMan]

63. Uh

Kerry *was* a junior officer.

A junior officer is an officer lower than a major in the Army, and I think lower than a lieutenant commander in the Navy. And the job does not resemble the presidency.

[Gore1FL]

64. That argument could easily be made

8 other ways.