So, any Mark Penn fans want to stand up for him

[Colobo]

after his shameful display on Hardball?

[seemslikeadream]

1. There are fans of Penn's here?

THE HEAD OF THE COMPANY THAT DEFENDED UNOIN CARBIDE


AND BLACKWATER

AND EXXON VALDIS

AND CHALABI

AND ARGENTINA FASCIST JUNTA

AND THE INDONESIAN GOVERNMENT

AND THE EL SALVADORIAN GOVERNMENT

AND THE NIGERIAN GOVERNMENT

AND SAUDI ARABIA ON SEPTEMBER 14 2001

AND THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT TO PROMOTE NAFTA

AND ROMANIAN DICTATOR NICOLAE CEAUCESCU

AND SOUTH KOREA South Korea (to avoid discussion of human rights issues during the 1988 Olympics)

AND THE UNITA - The US sponsored Angolan guerrilla army

AND BABCOCK AND WILCOX (for Three Mile Island nuclear accident)





Burson-Marsteller

[PresidentObama]

9. Nope, I doubt it.

Minus maybe the His44 crowd.

I'll take Joe Trippi over Penn any day.

[Renew Deal]

58. I don't think the Clinton people even like him

:dunce:

[K Gardner]

2. I'll kick this up to see if you get a response... waiting... waiting...

[thepurpose]

3. Any fan of Mark Penn please report for your ass whopping.

[Windy]

4. I hear nothing but crickets chirping....

and you know, Dems watch Hardball, so his performance on the show could have a very negative impact

[Avalux]

5. I can't imagine anyone would. He's smarmy.

Who made the decision to hire him, let alone put him on TV?? :hide:

[Windy]

7. Had to be Hillary. He is running her campaign

A decision of that much magnitude can only be made by her.

[Avalux]

12. That's what's upsetting to me.

The likeness to all things Bush was disturbing. I can't support her if she does this crap.

[Whisp]

16. probably hired for the intimidation factor,

what with his sleazy history.
glad to see it's not working out so well.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

64. "run" or "ruin"? either way, I suppose.

[bunnies]

6. Mark Penn is gross.

that is all.

[MGKrebs]

8. I've always assumed his hiring was mostly a pre-emptive strike,

an attempt to mitigate potential attacks from opponents knowing what he is capable of in retaliation.

Didn't really expect to see him on TV and in the press so much.

[ClarkUSA]

20. Hillary adores him and thinks the world of his talents -- read her autobiography

He's a Clinton zealot and a Lieberman AIPAC Democrat, like her other top "message" meister, Molly Grunwald.

[silverweb]

10. A useful lesson from Mom:

"Be careful how you choose your friends, because you'll be known by the company you keep."

Hillary's not looking too good in that department right now.

[DS1]

11. I'll say it again. Fuck off Hillary

You're in it for yourself.


Fuck off.

[alteredstate]

25. Are you asking Hillary to fuck off?

Or asking the rest of us to fuck off Hillary?

[DS1]

31. I thought it was clear

I wish Hillary would fuck off. She's nothing but a dressed up shill. The Romney of the Democrats, if you will.

[SaveElmer]

13. Mark Penn is a very intelligent person...and a very good pollster...

And I think generally has very good political instincts. I didn't see the show so cannot judge his speaking skills...

But the fact that Obama and Edwards supporters are bashing his performance is hardly convincing...

[Hieronymus]

14. Well, there's one vote from a dyed in the wool Hillary person.

[BootinUp]

22. 3 political strategists and what are you telling us

you can see into their souls or something?

:rofl:

[asdjrocky]

48. I can't see into Mark Penns soul-

I know his record. I know what he's done.

[Kucinich4America]

68. Probably because he doesn't have one.

Seems like a foul vermin who crawled out of the swamps of Hell to me....

[Colobo]

15. Thanks for playing, Elmer.

Watch his Hardball performance and tell me if you think Hillary is well served by having Penn pulling out that crap on National TV.

[SaveElmer]

17. I will watch...

But you would admit that your avid support of Obama colors your view...certainly if he is attacking Obama in any way it's gonna get your blood boiling right...

So you would agree taking the word of Obama supporters on Clinton's spokesman's performance would be pretty dumb...don't you?

[Colobo]

21. Joe Trippi, Edwards's campaign manager, was the one that

called Penn on his shit. I mean, it's something that I know you will dissaprove.

[SaveElmer]

26. I have seen Trippi before...I think he is an ass...nt

[Colobo]

27. He might be.

But you got to admit Penn is not very... likeable either.

[SaveElmer]

29. I usually find that campaign spokesman are rarely likeable...nt

[Zueda]

49. He is a little goofy at times but...

He clearly is concerned with the direction of our nation...unlike Penn.

[proudmoddemo]

52. I think you have bad taste

Joe Trippi actually stood up for what is right. Mark Penn never stands up for what is right. First, he busted unions. Now, he's running one of the most vile campaigns in recent history...

[SaveElmer]

69. Pretty funny....

Given Obama's hiring of the spokesman and defender of a group that has produced the most vile political ad ever used by one Demcorat against another...the Osama bin Laden ad directed at Howard Dean...

[Zueda]

73. Gibbs was most likely fulfulling his client's wishes...

When and IF Gibbs does something that vile for Obama then you may have a case.

[Colobo]

23. Here's the link.

http://thepage.time.com/?bcpid=1274025728&bclid=1343247690&bctid=1343260163

Scroll down a bit. You'll see it.

[ClarkUSA]

28. Yeah, he's so good at polling that his outfit enables coups by fixing exit polls in other countries.

PSB and the 2004 Venezuelan recall election

PSB received negative attention for polling it did during the August 2004 Venezuelan recall election of President Hugo Chavez...

"Exit Poll Results Show Major Defeat for Chavez" the survey, conducted by Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates, asserted even as
Sunday's voting was still on. But in fact, the opposite was true - Chavez ended up trouncing his enemies and capturing 59 percent
of the vote.

Guess when they say Mark Penn is Hillary's Karl Rove, they're not kidding...

TPSB's Venezuela poll raised eyebrows for several reasons: the opposition to Hugo Chavez seized upon it as proof that "the results
from the vote itself were fraudulent"; the poll results "were sent out by fax and e-mail to media outlets and opposition offices more
than four hours before polls closed," in violation of Venezuelan law; "members of Sumate, a Venezuelan group that helped organize
the recall initiative, the fieldwork for the poll"; and remarks tomedia went beyond poll results and analysis to election commentary -
Mark Penn told Associated Press that Doug Schoen "believes there were more problems with the voting than with the exit poll."

PSB and the Serbian elections in 2000

Interestingly, PSB was involved in similar charges of "American political interference in Serbia, locus of a $77 million U.S. effort to do
with ballots what NATO bombs could not--get rid of Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic. In the run-up to national elections on
Sept. 24, U.S. aid officials and contractors are working to strengthen Serbia's famously fractured democratic opposition. They have
helped train its organizers, equipped their offices with computers and fax machines and provided opposition parties with sophisticated
voter surveys compiled by the same New York firm that conducts polls for President Clinton"...

Jonathan Mowat has a more incisive appraisal of PSB as follows:

Penn, Schoen and Berland (PSB) has played a pioneering role in the use of polling operations, especially "exit polls," in facilitating coups.
Its primary mission is to shape the perception that the group installed into power in a targeted country has broad popular support. The
group began work in Serbia during the period that its principle, Mark Penn, was President Clinton's top political advisor.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Penn%2C_Schoen_%26_Berland

[K Gardner]

33. Good grief... I didn't know any of this. It's worse than creepy.

They are absolutely entrenched ...

[Kucinich4America]

35. I am neither an Obama or Edwards supporter

But I don't want that Republican neocon Blackwater defending PIECE OF SHIT associated with my party in any capacity.

And you Hillbots wonder why I'll never vote for Hillary?

[SaveElmer]

40. Yeah you are worse...

A Kucinich supporter...

'nuff said!

[Kucinich4America]

41. Yes, I only support DEMOCRATS

And your bosses at the DLC really hate that, don't they? :evilgrin:

[emilyg]

57. I doubt we spend sleepless nights wondering about your vote.

[Cha]

43. I guess you'd have to

worship at the altar of mark penn to be able to stand ol' hillary.

[karynnj]

45. He did a fabulous job on the Lieberman 2004 campaign

[eridani]

60. Supporting Blackwater and date rape drug toys is smart?

Maybe, but pretty fucking sociopathic as well IMO.

[BootinUp]

18. He did his job, did it well

not the prettiest of the three, but then I don''t think anyone would notice.

[HooptieWagon]

19. Hillary is good buddies

with Rupert Murdoch, Joe Lieberman, Roger Ailes, and Hsu, so is it really a surprise that she associates with the likes of Penn? By the company you keep you are branded... and thats a brand I'm not buyin'.

[Cameron27]

24. Murdoch donated to Clinton's senate campaign,

Obama picked Joe Lieberman as his mentor, and Hsu donated to a lot of Democrats, including Obama. Roger Ailes is good buddies with Clinton?

[karynnj]

46. Obams got something like $20,000 - HRC got $850,000

There's a difference

[Hieronymus]

30. Think Hillary will pick Lieberman as her VP?

[proudmoddemo]

53. Very Possible; If So, I'm Voting Nader

And I can't stand the Greens.

[CoffeeCat]

65. Holy Maird!

Do you actually think that Lieberman as her running mate is possible?

Now that's frightening. Really frightening.

[emilyg]

34. Lieberman was Obama's mentor.

[Zueda]

50. uhh... No he wasn't. nt

[emilyg]

55. At times like this , google can be a good friend.

[Zueda]

66. Exactly...and I have yet to find any substantial or credible information

confirming this...Please post any links you found...thanks!

[Zueda]

70. I found this...

http://www.boston.com/news/local/connecticut/articles/2006/10/26/lamont_gets_lift_from_obama_lieberman_campaigns_with_landrieu/

and this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/27/ap/politics/mainD8L0MB280.shtml

It appears that Obama does not much care for Lieberman.

[MNDemNY]

61. uhh, 'fraid so.

[Zueda]

67. Please provide references...thanks. nt

[MNDemNY]

71. How about his own damn book?

[Zueda]

72. Sorry. I don't have any of his books.

Is there an excerpt you are referencing somewhere on the web?

[MS Liberal]

32. This is politics!!!! He did good!!!

When Hillary is ready to call Obama out for his drug use. She will do it herself. That's the difference in a woman and a man.

All Mark did was use the word cocaine. If Obama and "I am so fair to everyone but Hillary" Edwards do not want him to use the word cocaine, it is just too damn bad. Did he use cocaine? yes, he did. Did he sell drugs? I do not know. If he did, his campaign is over. If he did not sell drugs, just say so and move on.

Did he sell drugs? I have not seen a clip of Obama saying he has not sold drugs. He may as well say it now. This a great opportunity to get it on the record for the national audience. For him to be a viable vice-president, he needs to get this behind him. In case you have missed my other posts, I am voting for Hillary. He can VP but Hillary is going to be President.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to use Obama and cocaine in the same sentence.

[JackORoses]

36. wow, is this Mark Penn typing this post? your innuendo stinks as bad as his

take it back to Hill's dumpster

[MS Liberal]

39. Did Obama sell cocaine?

Thanks again for the opportunity to use Obama and cocaine in the same sentence again.

I do not know if Hillary really condones what her co-chair did and I do not care. I like the fact that it was done. This is the Hillary I adore. Other Democrats have are known as too soft, you can say that about Hillary. Hillary is a fighter. I want to be in the foxhole with her. She is in it to win. No one is going to become President by being nice and not sticking it to their opponent. If you got dirt, use it or get used.

I realize this sounds mean but politics in Washington is not for those who can not stand the sight of blood. Kick Hillary or any of us when she is President and she will take them down. If you are tired of the repukes walking all over us, vote for Hillary. Do not be fooled by those who say Obama or anyone else can turn the page and the majority of the republicans will become good Americans and put the country first. The only way they are going to become good Americans is if we beat them into submission. Our ideas and policies are better but our execution sucks. Their communication and PR skills are better. Obama and Edwards think our better ideas will win America over. Wrong. Repukes are bullies and if you want the bully to stop beating you up and taking your lunch money, you will have to beat him up or get someone to do it for you. In politics nice guys finish last.

[JackORoses]

44. I guess that's Hillary's plan with the Repukes...If you can't beat them, join them

Why run an honest campaign, when it is so fun to play dirty?

[Kucinich4America]

37. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to use "Hillary" and VOMIT in the same sentence

Though around here, it's the Hillbots who make me puke more than Mrs. Clinton herself. :puke:

[MS Liberal]

42. I look forward to working with you in the general election.

Who ever the nominee is you and I will work side by side to get them elected. Until then we are friends who disagree. I love this country and so do you.

We Hillbots are just strong supporters of Hillary and no matter what name you give us, we will wear it with pride.

[Armstead]

38. Anyone noticed he also slipped the word "in school in Indonesia" in there too?

When answering a question about the kindergarten smear, he didn;t just say "when he was in school." Insteead he also gratuituously slipped in "in Indonesia."

I realize that Obama himself is not ashamed of that, but coming from Penn's lips it sounded like he was also trying to slip in anotehr loaded word into his answer.

[Tactical Progressive]

47. I'll stand up for getting nasty on Obama

He's earned it and he deserves it. Ugliest Dem I've seen in a while.

As to Mark Penn in specific, I'm not a big fan. He hasn't been effective at parrying Obama's slime in general, and this episode in particular seemed poorly timed and poorly executed. I understand that the media isn't going to spoil anybody that they think could stop Hillary, just like they don't go after Publicans. Perhaps Penn's team thinks they need to bring it out themselves, and they're right about that if Obama's drug involvement is more than just some youthful teen experimentation. Publicans will destroy Obama and Dems with him if it turns out to be true. The media would love to carry that secret out into the general election before dropping it on Democrats. But this was just not well done by Penn and crew.

Penn himself came off badly on Hardball, even given that he was on cable's Hillary Hater Central with maniacally Clinton-hating Chris Matthews and his giggling sycophants. He's definately a behind-the-scenes guy, or should be. The only thing that ameliorates that to any extent is how sleazy David Axelrod is and what a creep Joe Trippi is. The Democratic behind-the-scenes people in this election are just not very savory across the board.

But you have to get into the gutter with people who work from there like Obama. That's the one good thing about him in this election is that Democrats have got to learn to hit back against a punk-ass bitch like Obama as preparation for going against Publican slimers. There is no choice. Dems always think that they can get by, by taking the high road and that the people will reward them for doing it. Doesn't happen. The sleaze works, as evidenced by Obama's rise in the polls since he started throwing more and more mud at Hillary. Pay no attention to 'the voters don't like it and may punish the perpetrator'. If only voters were half that good inside.

The simple fact is that if you don't fight back against slanderers, then they just take license to slander more and more. That goes for the supporters too. How many (tens of) thousands of times have you heard Hillary called a "bitch" here on DU? "Evil"? A "low-class", "filthy", "lying" "whore"? An "evil", "two-faced", "sociopathic" "bitch"? "Evil" and "bitch" in particular are the standard references to Hillary here on DU. Just above someone tells Hillary to "fuck off". The point is that in the real world the media will countenance anything against a Democrat, especially Hillary, but also Bill or Gore or Kerry, just as the moderators here will countenance pretty much anything against Hillary. You either go into the gutter to fight or you get buried under filth. Nobody is going to help you, in fact they will probably help the smearer. The only time the powers-that-be take exception is when the good guys fight back in kind. Then the whole thing suddenly becomes unacceptable when they're both doing it, which remains a reason to fight back in either case.

So Penn is probably right to go after Obama. He's just not that good at it. Or he just hasn't figured out quite how to do it against a fellow Dem. Obama is kind of unique in his easy willingness to smear his own side and lie to do it. Penn has done such a bad job so far, assuming that he was part of this, that he actually had to have Hillary apologize. Uhhh. She should have come out and said something like 'I didn't want to bring this out now, but the extent of Obama's drug use is an issue. He's always talking about everybody else being open, maybe he should be more open.' Short and sweet. And when Obama demurs with 'I've already talked about that.' Hillary just says 'Then you won't mind talking about it now.'

My suggestion is to bring Obama in to consult tactics in the general election. He has been a pretty effective smear artist against Democrats, and though I question whether he can do it when he's not slandering his own, it will probably be worth a try.

[AX10]

54. You and I agree. Obama is a filthy politician.

I do believe that anyone that comes from the Daley machine is.

This paragraph sums it up for me:

"The simple fact is that if you don't fight back against slanderers, then they just take license to slander more and more. That goes for the supporters too. How many (tens of) thousands of times have you heard Hillary called a "bitch" here on DU? "Evil"? A "low-class", "filthy", "lying" "whore"? An "evil", "two-faced", "sociopathic" "bitch"? "Evil" and "bitch" in particular are the standard references to Hillary here on DU. Just above someone tells Hillary to "fuck off". The point is that in the real world the media will countenance anything against a Democrat, especially Hillary, but also Bill or Gore or Kerry, just as the moderators here will countenance pretty much anything against Hillary. You either go into the gutter to fight or you get buried under filth. Nobody is going to help you, in fact they will probably help the smearer. The only time the powers-that-be take exception is when the good guys fight back in kind. Then the whole thing suddenly becomes unacceptable when they're both doing it, which remains a reason to fight back in either case."

[eridani]

62. Filth = Blackwater and date rape toy makers, Penn's clients n/t

[Colobo]

74. Filth: He's the obstacle in the way of Hillary's coronation.

[proudmoddemo]

51. Mark Penn Has Fans...

In Freeperville.

And this proved that he was behind everything. Notice how he disavows the attacks, but repeats them while disavowing them. Sorry Mark, Karl Rove clued us in on that. We don't believe it anymore...Union busting tactics like that don't work.

[0007]

56. What a girl!!

"Tip toe through the tulips with me"

[PuraVidaDreamin]

59. LoL

giggling and snorting too for a good 60 seconds.
Thanks for that

[Mass]

63. Apparently, he has some fans here. including a few ready to repeat the same slimes that he said

concerning Obama.

For my part, only a word concerning Penn and his fans :puke:.

[Catherine Vincent]

75. Who's Mark Penn? nt

[blindpig]

76. Here's some of his fans:

When Philip Morris, for example, needs helps with its corporate image, they call Burson-Marsteller.

When Entergy Nuclear wants you to not think about their cooling towers collapsing on their nuclear power plant in Vermont, they call Burson-Marsteller.

When Three-Mile Island happened in 1979, Babcock and Wilcox, they called Burson-Marsteller.

The Bhopal chemical disaster in India 20 years ago? Union Carbide called Burson-Marsteller.

Three days after 9/11 the government of Saudi Arabia called Burson-Marsteller.

Terrifying Romanian dictator Nicolai Ceausescu? You guessed it: Burson-Marsteller.

When a military junta overthrew the government of Argentina in 1976, who did the generals call? Burson-Marsteller.

The government of Indonesia, accused of genocide in East Timor? Quick, someone look up the number for Burson-Marsteller.

Now Burson-Marsteller has their newest marquee public relations client: Blackwater.

You can kinda see why it's a little bit gross that the CEO of Burson-Marsteller is Hillary Clinton's pollster and chief campaign strategist, Mark Penn.