Nader didn't make the Democrats lose the 2000 presidential election.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

If Democratic party couldn't get people to vote for them, the democratic party should take responsibility and not use Nader as a scapegoat. People must of saw something wrong with the democratic party or they wouldn't have voted for nader. This time around though if the democratic party is sure of itself and knows it can get the peoples vote then they shouldn't be afraid of nader. If the democratic part can offer a platform that is decent to nader voters then they shouldn't have anything to afraid of...unless the democratic party doesn't have anything to offer...nah that can't be true...wait is it?

[methinks2]

1. Blame K. Harris

It was under watch. I live in Florida and most of us here blame her and Diebold.

[mdmc]

2. I know he didn't

it is just too hard to explain that the dems failed, and the gop cheated.

Much better to bash Nader than fix our party or hold the gop accountable.

[bluestateguy]

3. Nothing to be afraid of? How about the DRAFT?

If the democratic part can offer a platform that is decent to nader voters then they shouldn't have anything to afraid of...

Just wait until George W. Bush comes looking for you with his draft in early 2005. Don't say I didn't warn you. Nor will I offer my home as a refuge for a draft resister who voted for Nader in 2004.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

7. If he comes out with the draft he's screwed

that'll be the worst political mistake he ever does.

[bluestateguy]

9. What will the American people do? Vote him out?

A second term president with a lapdog Congress could give a rat's ass what the people think. And if that's a problem he could always declare RED ALERT and do it by executive order.

Vote for Nader and you better suit up son!

[ProudToBeLiberal]

12. Millions of people can go out into the streets.

young republicans do not want to face the draft. They will pressure their congress people. same with the parents of these young'uns, they do not want to see their children die. They will pressure congress. This will make the GOP lose seats.

[bluestateguy]

21. Dream on

They will get their draft. They will do it early in 2005 do let the backlash peter out before the election, or just be executive order. This is the 2000's, not the 1960's. People don't go "out into the streets" anymore. Not in numbers worth giving a damn about anyway. Those anti-war demonstrations last year sure did a lot of good.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

24. are you advocating we should stop civil disobedience and anti-war rallies?

are you suggesting we don't use our right to assemble but we should discard it?

[bluestateguy]

27. No, go ahead and use it

but understand that the people who actually accomplish things in politics compromise and work with the grownups. Street agitation should only be a last resort.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

32. or like compromising with the GOP?

like how dascle compromises all the time. I see

[bluestateguy]

41. Tom Daschle is not runnig for president

and he has done a very good job at blocking right wing extremist judged from being appointed, as well as drilling in ANWR. Still you seem to be just fine with allowing the Great Satan in the White House to appoint the next 4 Supreme Court justices and to turn the Alaska Wildlife Refuge into a playground for the oil companies.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

44. did block the patriot act? or the IWR? Or NCLB? or the...

trillion dollar tax cut. I view time as in a circle not in a straight line.

[bluestateguy]

47. Grow up

Kerry and Daschle voted against the tax cut. The Iraq resolution was pointless and would not have stopped the war no matter how much you might like to believe that it would have. paul Wellstone voted for the Patriot Act, and Ralph Nader was nowhere to be found in oppositon, nor did he oppose the Iraq war resolution. I have never heard of "NCLB". I don't deal in acronymns.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

50. NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND. I am growing up. It's a long process

[MinnFats]

17. C'mon. If some misguided kid shows up at your door...

....
you're not going to help him elude Bush's draft war machine?
That time, and I fear greatly that it will come, will be time for solidarity.
I'm not going to turn that kid away. Along with my son, who will turn 18 as a second Bush term would end....(and, perhaps, in the middle of a great conflagration)....I will do all I can to get them out of that mess.
You should too!

[bluestateguy]

23. If he was too young to vote or voted for Kerry I would let him in

At this point, Nader voters need to learn a lesson or two about the real world, and if that means packing their overprivileged asses off to the Middle East then so be it. Voting Green will be a mistake they NEVER make again.

[no name no slogan]

28. But who says Kerry/Edwards won't sign a draft either?

Both of them want to keep us in Iraq for the foreseeable future-- Kerry wants to send another 40,000 troops there! How do they plan on recruiting enough boots to cover the ongoing occupation, when enlistment levels are plummetting?

Can you say "draft"?

I have not seen ANY guarantees from Kerwards that they will NOT institute a draft, especially since they both believe the US needs to be an occupying force in Iraq.

For a lot of draft-age people, THAT will be a huge issue.

[bluestateguy]

45. There is simply no evidence to support that

and if you vote for Nader you just vote for a candidate who can't win and who did nothing to speak out against the war in the first place.

[Enough is Enough]

48. "Kerwards" can't really get us out of Iraq after all the damage done

BUT Kerry is going to push for UN cooperation, unlike Bush. Bush wants the UN to help on HIS terms only, that won't work. Kerry or Edwards will do their best to get international help, not just us. Also, I know many are against the UN, but the WTO is MUCH WORSE!

[mzmolly]

4. I totally agree Nader is not responsible for (S)election 2000

But I still dont care for him. :hi:

[Enough is Enough]

52. Nader didn't get enough votes

So why is he trying again? Katherine Harris was the kingpin in the loss of Gore, but Nader didn't help matters either. I really hope the democrats on this site stick together, even though their original candidate has dropped out or does not win. ALL democrats must stick together and encourage others--republican & independent friends to vote for whoever wins the democratic nomination! My son is 25 years old and his goal is to get at least 50 of his friends in that age bracket and younger to register and vote. I am very proud of him! Maybe all of us should work towards that goal as well! Oh, my son will NOT be voting for Bush or Nader, so I am sure he will be explaining to his friends the need to vote the democratic candidate in.

[WiseMen]

5. Meaningless Rhetoric. FL. Nader took 97,000 from Gore. Bush won by 500.

In New Hampshire Nader took 20,000 votes from Gore. Bush won by 7,000.

In 3 other state Nader almost cost Gore a win.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

8. you proved my point

nader voters must of saw something wrong with the democratic party. But if the democratic party is sure this time around that they can attract nader voters then they have nothing to worry about.

[thebaghwan]

6. Horseshit!

n/t

[WiseMen]

10. This Post shows such IGNORANCE of U.S. electoral politics its FRIGHTENING

[ProudToBeLiberal]

14. I already learned the electoral college in my civics class

unless you're one of those who supporters NCLB I think our publica education is doing the best it can.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. If you had you wouldn't have made your opening argument

[Malva Zebrina]

11. Honestly, Nader is squeezing us

it is crucial to get Bush out of the White House. WE can agree on that, right?

. Nader is like a little, a tiny little, prick who cannot understand that he is impeding the ouster of a fascist, wanna be who resides with his duh duh what do I say next, George?, wife, known as the "pickles" a dark green, sour, acidic product, as if her real name has been forgotten by her own husband

Get Nader out of there. He is recklessly ruining anything he says that could be, at some point, worth something.

He is destroying this country with his reclessness. He has not a chance of winning a godamm thing and this is NOT the time to play this game with America.

Why does he do this in the face of the fact that Bush is a neo con, religious reconstructionist, who seeks to conquor the entire world with his Straussian philosophy, all dressed up as a Jesus?

Maybe Nader is not aware of this. Should someone clue him in as to what the real situtaion is here?

{robably not. HE is as much an ego driven political animal as Bush. Nader is next on my "hate" list if he keeps it up. I am sure he is perfectly aware of what he is doing to get Bush elected for four more years of lies, terra and al the rest of the shit.

[Enough is Enough]

55. Do what I did

I wrote Nader at [e-mail]. I let him know he would NOT be getting my vote. I also told him he was a hypocrite for using the excuse he wants Bush out of office. Does he really? Why is he jumping in so late. By the way, he is not running as a Green Party candidate but as an independent. He had a falling out with the Green party. So, here is my challenge, ALL people involved with this site, contact Nader and let him know he will NOT get your vote.

[ChrisNYC]

13. No, but he did elect Shrub n/t

[BOSSHOG]

15. "Couldn't get people to vote for them"??

More "people" voted for the democratic candidate than any other presidential candidate in 2000; that despite the vicious onslaught of the right wing hate machine and the puppy press who treated the chosen one with kid gloves. What the democratic party can offer to America is a one way ticket for bush to texas. Nader can not do that. Nader is obviously proud to be an egotistical citizen who chooses not to take the advice of his friends or the Green Party in 2004 and who will be forever on karl rove's christmas card list.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

18. maybe you should blame the electoral college?

You said Gore got the most votes. Then they might be something wrong with our election system. Why not blame diebold or the GOP?

[BOSSHOG]

26. Our Electoral Process is fine

And Gore did get the most votes. And Dems offer to America tax relief for the little guy; wise use of our military assets; a restoration and strenghthening of constitutional guarantees, made necessary by the nader-aided bush presidency. And, most likely important to you, a helpful political philosophy and action on the environment.

Will Nader win the Presidential election in 2004? If not, what effect will he have on the race? Will he be covertly funded by the right wing? Will you be better off with four more years of bush which is a greater possibility with a Nader candidacy? Its hard to imagine you being a proud liberal when the choice in 2004 is so obvious, and you are fighting it so hard.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

31. how is it just fine?

when the will of the majority of the polulation is ignored?

[BOSSHOG]

37. Ralph Nader is ignoring the Will of the Majority of the Population

of the United States. Our electoral process has served us just fine and if a change is needed, there exists mechanisms to make that happen. If you want to ignore the will of the majority, continue to support Nader. Ralph knows he is a monkey wrench and that is how history will record his actions instead of highlighting the positive contributions he has made to American Consumer issues over the past 40+ years.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

39. the will of the majority is they WANT change

so I don't think he is ingoring the will of the majority. And you didn't respond to my question.

[The Magistrate]

16. Pure Swill, Fellow

The presence of Wrecker Nader on the ballot, and his persistent attacks against the Democratic Party and its nominee, were the decisive factor in the success of the '00 Coup. The only persons who deny this are those who cannot accept that left zealotry once again, in that election, ensured the success of the worst elements of reaction, which is what such mindless zeal has generally done throughout history, or those incapable of grade school arithmetic.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[no name no slogan]

40. But what about the 30,000 FL Dems who voted for BUSH?

Or the 3,000 little old Jewish ladies who "voted" for Buchannan?

What if those "disloyal" 30,000 FL Dems voted the party line? Bush would have resoundingly defeated Shrub, and no amount of monkey bidness by Jeb or K. Harris could have undone it. Don't believe me? Ask Greg Palast.

Not to mention the 50,000+ black voters wrongfully purged from the voting rolls by the FL Dept of State-- votes which would have OVERWHELMINGLY gone to Gore.

Blame Nader if you will, but making him a scapegoat for the inadequacies of the Democratic Party and its candidate in 2000 does nothing to change the fact that the race was the Democrats to lose, and they blew it.

[The Magistrate]

58. None Of These Things Matter, Sir

They call some damned odd things Democrats at times down below the Mason Dixon, and that has been true since the Freedom Summers. If inclined to look, you could probably demonstrate some thousands of self-identified Republicans in Florida voted for Vice-President Gore. This sort of leakage on both sides occurs all the time, and is a normal feature operating in every electoral contest.

The purge of voter rolls was a damned sharp practice, and while such things are also a routine feature of elections, this one was a little more than usual. Given the turn-out rates, it probably resulted in perhaps twenty thousand votes not being cast, and that number would have sufficed. Even the mistaken marking of "butterfly ballots", also a normal sort of error, was numerous enough, given the close nature of the vote to have made a difference.

The abnormal factor, however, the one that is not typically present in national elections, was a well financed extra candidate running to the left. This candidate received some ninety thousand votes in Florida. Even allowing for some portion of people who might not have voted otherwise, and a small number of Republican voters who may possibly have been persuaded to mark the Green ballot for what ever reasons, it is nonsense to pretend that this candidacy did not subtract at least fourty thousand votes from the Democratic column in Florida. This number is well in excess of the yield in un-cast votes gained by the voter roll purge, and the mistaken ballots. It is also well in excess of the conservative Democrat leakage toward the other side, and when the likely partial off-set of that number by the Republicans who voted Democrat in the contest is taken into account, it may well have exceeded all the numbers you have cited totaled together in its effect. When a factor is both abnormal, and of such size as this in comparison to normal factors, it is the proper conclusion that it is what caused the abnormal result. It certainly put the final cap on the result, and had it been subtracted, and all else been as it was, the Florida total would have gone into the Democratic column.

You may wriggle over this all you wish, but the fact remains: without Wrecker Nader, the vote in Florida would have been so clearly in the Democratic column that the criminals of the '00 Coup would have had no opportunity for successful skull-duggery, and President Albert Gore would be in the White House today. That he is not is the direct result of the actions of Wrecker Nader, and of the fools who voted for him.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[RandomKoolzip]

20. Well...he HELPED.

I was one of those assholes who voted for that fucker. I regret it. If the race hadn't been so tight, Harris, Jeb, et al. wouldn't have benefitted from "just the right amount" of stolen votes to put the contest into question.

And one of the unfortunate realities that comes with this knowledge is the realization that people who share most of Nader's views on things are outnumbered, by moderates and republicans. It's a big country.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

22. of course things can change

just look at europe. They virtually don't have moderates. It's either left or right.

[The Magistrate]

35. Nonsense, Fellow

European parties of Social Democrat or Christian Democrat stripe are center left and center right parties. In a situation where there are only parties of the far left and far right, you do not have political life; you have civil war. That is not nearly so fun as it might sound to a youth full of piss and vinegar who has never seen a man beaten dead with chains....

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[ProudToBeLiberal]

38. you call everybody sir why not me?

I don't think the average american saw a person beat with a chain.

[The Magistrate]

49. Do Yourself A Favor, Fellow

Stay clear of civil wars....

"The eagernes of green troops for combat is not to be greatly relied on."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Guava Jelly]

25. Oh Paleeeeeeese

Nader took florida and new hamshire votes He didnt even get enough votes to get matching funds.
He blew it now we have bush..If you wish to live in denial so be it but spreading bs like this helps your buddy Bush.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

29. If bush is my buddy then why am I not voting for him?

[RandomKoolzip]

33. If it's really so important to you to vote third party, then

I suggest concentrating on local elections. This national contest is FAR too important to blithely throw away for the sake of making a point. (I vote Green in local elections, when a Green is in the running.)

Please, though...consider what you will be giving to us should this plan to go third party end up taking away votes from the Dem candidate, and enabling Bush to take power again. And be wary of snake-oilmen like Ralph.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

34. everything starts out small.

step by step

[RandomKoolzip]

46. So then why try to run when we can't walk yet?

Sorry to talk entirely in cliches, but I really do see where you're coming from and I can understand your frustration. I don't want to be condescending.

We are not dealing from a position of strength here. We would need control of at least one of the branches of government to affect any kind of change a third party candidacy would bring. Look at the SF mayoral race, and how it came down to a Green and a Dem. On the local level, these victories can be made, but on the natioanl stage, voting third party is recipe for disaster in the form of even tighter control of all three houses by the repubs. We need to get back to the center before we can start moving the US to the left again. Step by step, indeed.

"You don't pull no punches, but you don't push the river"
-Van Morrison, 1974

[Enough is Enough]

56. The first step to changing what is happening in this country

is to start voting in the repugs out of Congress. I don't care if it involves voting for independents or democrats. The Congress has been repug majority for 8 years or more, look where we are today! Look for a candidate that votes FOR THE PEOPLE, NOT THE PARTY. Notice how many repug congress people go along with the party ideals only. Most are only little robots that DO NOT use their minds, but vote based on party politics. This has got to change!

[meti57b]

36. a vote for nader *is* a vote for bush.

[Guava Jelly]

43. I am sure hes not your buddy

I just for the life of me cant figure out why my people would Help Bush by backing nader

[Nlighten1]

30. I couldn't agree more...

Most of the people who blame Nader don't know jack shit about what his message was during election 2000.

Here is a good example.

http://gnn.tv/countdown/

Watch that video and ask yourself if ANY of the so called Democrats are asking these questions.

[CWebster]

42. Amazing in it's obvious simplicity, isn't it?

the ONLY way they can sell Kerry is by placing the mantle of "electibility" as his exclusive claim, casting his liabilities as "presidential", playing alpha games with Bush, to compete with the Republican assessment of patriotism, while the entire paradigm should be challenged based on the reality of what a mess Iraq is. And of course, it always helps to get the party backing and media financing.

So, a cynical strategy is employed and voter's fear of Bush is exploited to suggest Kerry is the most electible contender. But as Bush's illusions of war hero deteriorated aboard an aircraft carrier, Kerry's image is so precarious that Nader can threaten him merely by uttering the truth.

[Guava Jelly]

51. Here is naders new campaign logo

feel free to use it

[ProudToBeLiberal]

53. Bush would lose the conservative vote.

[slinkerwink]

54. you have a very good point there----the Dem party can't afford to

marginalize the left.

[Piperay]

57. IF he didn't it sure wasn't

for lack of trying. :argh:

[thebigthink]

59. If Gore had won his home state of Tennesee...

...we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Fact: There are always a few fringe candidates on the ballot -- left, right and other/out to lunch -- and there are always a few people on the fringes who will vote for them. They simply don't play any meaningful part in any winning strategy. Nobody ever wins or loses an election because of any thing the fringes do or don't do, because the fringes don't do things for reasons that make sense to most people. That's why they're called the fringes. The candidates who win elections are the ones who do make the most sense (or seem to, anyway) to the most voters.

End of story.

It's a free country though. If people want to waste their time, their money and their votes on a meaningless activity, hooray for them. It's not like they're hurting anyone.

Can we talk about something else now?