Should the constitution be changed to allow foreign borns to run for prez?

[ringmastery]

Arnold wants it changed and fundamentally, he's right. We are a nation of immigrants. This would also help our democratic governor Jennifer Granholm from Michigan. She's a future star of our party. She was born in Canada and moved to the U.S. when she was a little girl. What reasonable explanation is there to prevent her from running?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20040222/ap_on_re_us/schwarzenegger

WASHINGTON - Arnold Schwarzenegger (news - web sites), making his Sunday talk show debut as governor, said that he and other foreign-born citizens should be eligible to run for the White House and that President Bush (news - web sites) can carry California in November if he does more to help the state.

The Austrian-born former bodybuilder, in the capital for his first meeting with fellow governors, said he has not thought about running for president in the future. The Constitution says only natural-born citizens of the United States are eligible for the country's highest office.

The Republican governor said anyone who has been a U.S. citizen for at least 20 years — as he has — should "absolutely" be able to seek the presidency. A constitutional amendment proposed by Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, would make that possible.

[Padraig18]

1. I'm biased, but I do believe it should be.

I think a lengthy citizenship requirement would be fine (say, 25-30 years, + or -), however.

[Jack Rabbit]

2. I am inclined to say Yes

However, that is a seperate issue from whther or not I would support any prsidential bid by Governor Schwartzenegger. I would be inclined not to support one, of course.

[Dookus]

3. Yes it should

and the question should be debated without any particular politicians in mind. We need to look at the principle itself.

We've argued this in the past, though, and people can't get past the idea of Scharzenegger, so you'll see a lot of people here voting no.

Their position will change, though, when Jennifer Granholm is the topic.

[DemBones DemBones]

29. Sorry, with Ahhnold in the picture, I'm opposed to it.

There's an age limit, too, which we could also argue is unfair.

Or we could accept that LIFE is unfair, since it is.

Gov. Jennifer Granholm (sp.?) would have to be the first woman elected to the presidency -- which in itself would require a Constitutional amendment -- and, speaking as a woman, I don't see her chances as being much better than Sen. Margaret Chase Smith's or Rep. Shirley Chisholm's were.

Women are not treated equally in our society and the many changes in my lifetime have been largely superficial.

[Dookus]

32. well

there's no reason to presume Granholm would be the first. She's young and has a great future. There could certainly be women before her. And remember, the amendment also would affect the Vice Presidential qualification.

Life is unfair, but that's no reason to enshrine unfairness in our constitution.

[DemBones DemBones]

40. If the VP had to be native-born,

I don't think Geraldine Ferraro would have been on the ticket with Mondale.

Edit: I have no idea where this idea came from. Misfiring neurons? Tangled synapses? Need for caffeine?

[Dookus]

44. umm.

why?

And the constitution does require that the VP candidate meet the requirements to hold the office of President; be 35 years old, have lived in the US for some time (15, 20 years?) and a natural-born citizen.

Geraldine Ferraro met all of those requirements.

on edit: the residency requirement is 14 years.

[DemBones DemBones]

69. Well,

damned if I know. . . I can usually multitask, but see my edited post above.

[leyton]

48. Geraldine Ferraro is from New York.

http://teacher.scholastic.com/researchtools/articlearchives/womhst/gerald.htm

[Kinkistyle]

4. I think it should be allowed.

What does the location of ones birth have to do with ANYTHING?

[Virginian]

26. I'm against it.

People who are born overseas of US parents are still eligible to run.

I fear that preferential considerations may be given to the country of original citizenship.

Say, if a Saudi prince moves to the US to go to college and stays here, obtaining citizenship as a condition of employment. Under current rules he can't run. Under changed rules, he can. We have seen what PNAC and Dubya have done, imagine if he had a hidden fundamentalist agenda and backers (like PNAC) who wanted us all to behave like Saudis. Bush has scared me into believing anything like that could happen, and he was born here.

I don't want to give up my driving privileges. (understatement)

[ringmastery]

they are?

I don't think they are.

If you aren't born in this country, it's tough shit, you are out of luck. Even if both of your parents are U.S. citizens.

[Virginian]

35. Yes, they are.

If an American Serviceman and his wife are stationed in a foreign country at the time of their child's birth, the child is still as much an American as the parents. They may get Dual citizenship, that is up to the other country, but "brats" are citizens regardless where they are born. I have a cousin who fits that category.

I think it is true for non military as well. But I couldn't swear to it.

[ringmastery]

38. they are citizens

but that doesn't change the constitution.

The constitution says the u.s. citizen has to be born on home soil, no exceptions.

[Padraig18]

45. Where does it say that?

Article, clause, etc. ?

[GreenArrow]

55. it says:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

http://www.constitution.org/constit_.htm#con2.1.5

Technically, I think a child could be born overseas to parents who are US citizens, but in order to be eligible for the presidency, the child would have to have live in the US for for at least 14 years.

[Padraig18]

57. Actually, that proves MY point. thanks!

It says nothing about being born IN America itself, does it now? :)

[Enough is Enough]

94. NOTE: Natural Born Citizen

The Constitution does state "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;..."

The key point I see many of you arguing about is "a Citizen of the United States". The Constitution clearly states "AT THE TIME OF THE ADOPTION OF THIS CONSTITUTION". Because it was a new nation, many of the founding fathers could have been foreign born. That was over 200 years ago. Thus the Constitution clearly states "natural born Citizen".

That should not be changed.

[Dookus]

49. it says no such thing

[Virginian]

95. My copy does.

Natural Born and resident for 14 years. So a child of citizens could live abroad until he was 21 and be elected president at age 35. A little far fetched, but legal.

Here, read for yourself. Article II section 1.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html

[DoNotRefill]

71. Legally, service brats...

are natural-born citizens, even if born overseas.

[Lindacooks]

5. NO

Leave the Constitution alone. There's no need to mess with it for these simple-minded Repukes.

[Dookus]

7. this has nothing to do with

republicans. It has to do with the principle that naturalized citizens are no less worthy than native-born citizens.

And if we'd "left the constitution alone", women couldn't vote.

[demigoddess]

52. The rule should stand, one reason is that if things keep going

the way they are now, a foreigner could come in and spend money etc to essentially buy his way into the presidency and begin a dictatorship. the rule presumes that the next generation is soon enough. It used to be "any man can believe that his son can grow up to be president" It really is not too much to ask for the presidency. would you all feel about schwarzenegger the way you do if he had worked his way up through lower electic offices? or do you really think that the gwb version of success in life is the great american dream?

[Padraig18]

9. *ahem*

I'm a yellow-dog Democrat who was born in Ireland, but by te time I'd be old enough to become POTUS, I'll have been living here for 25 years, and will have been a citizen for 17+...

[rfranklin]

6. Why should we change it?

Arnold is just trying to get himself into the White House.

There is no good reason to do so.

[Dookus]

11. there's a very good reason:

the clause is discriminatory and unnecessary.

Forget Schwarzenegger. The amendment wouldn't say only naturalized Austrian body-builders can run. It would also mean Jennifer Granholm, Madeline Albright, et. al. could run.

Can we really not separate the principle from the individuals?

[Kinkistyle]

15. To give immigrants a fair chance at politics?

You know. Something about freedom and equality.

[GreenArrow]

17. "To give immigrants a fair chance at politics?"

Immigrants already have a (more or less) fair chance at politics; they just aren't allowed to run for president, though they can run for anything else if they become citizens.

[Padraig18]

20. And we shouldn't be allowed to run for POTUS because....?

I'm interested in seeing the ending to that question.

[GreenArrow]

43. I said in my earlier post that I really don't have a good reason

I just don't think it's a big enough issue to change the Constitution over.

Given that we're a nation of immigrants, it creates an interesting conundrum to disallow an immigrant running for president, but I guess when that was written into the Constitution, it was in order to prevent agents of foreign powers from unduly influencing the politics of the country.

Maybe it was in a sense an additional assertion of independence from a brand new country; though we welcome immigrants from all over the world, we expect them to have at least a generation of roots here to consider themselves as Americans. One is no longer French, or German, or Chinese, though those backgrounds are integral parts of ones identity; waiting for a generation is a way of ensuring that there are no dual loyalties.

[Padraig18]

46. Actually, until Andrew Jackson...

... (I think), all of our Presidents were 'foreign-born', legally.

[GreenArrow]

60. that's kind of fascinating to consider

but,

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or:

a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution,

shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

[Padraig18]

65. I know.

Just pointing out that not every President, including some of the greatest ones, were American-born citizens. :hi:

[kskiska]

97. John Quincy Adams' wife, I believe

was born in England, making her the only First Lady not born in the states. Of course, technically, Martha Washington and others were born in British colonies before independence was declared.

[Virginian]

99. And in 1964, Barry Goldwater ran for president.

Arizona was not a state when he was born there.

[wryter2000]

8. Absolutely

I want George Soros to run.

[DemBones DemBones]

10. Let's leave the Constitution as it is.

Amending it is rarely a good thing, and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts making the change you propose would enable Ahhnold, not Jennifer or anyone else in our party.

[Dookus]

16. Amending the constitution is very often a good thing

when it entails correcting a wrong.

Women can now vote. 18 year olds can now vote. African-Americans can now vote.

This is not a right-wing initiative. It's about doing the right thing.

[GreenArrow]

19. there are immense differences between

women and blacks voting and foreigners becoming presidents.

[Dookus]

28. foreigners?

lol

If someone has been a solid US citizen for a long period of time, they are Americans, not foreigners.

There's no logical reason to deny the right to run for office to such people.

[Padraig18]

33. Thank you, Dookus!

:hi:

[GreenArrow]

51. foreigners?

I meant to say "furiners."

I take your point. One can be a foreign born American citizen. You can see my post # 43 for reasons why I think that the rule against electing such as president might be in place.

[question everything]

24. And the rest of us can get our Guiness, yeah

[The Crow]

12. Yeah...I think it should be changed.

Just for the simple fact that this country is a "melting pot" of people from all over the world.

I think as long as a person is a citizen, has lived here for X amount of years, and such stuff have the credentials to become President.

[GreenArrow]

13. no I don't think so

no real reason either, it just doesn't sit right with me for some reason.

It's kind of a non-issue, and it doesn't seem like an unreasonable standard.

[Mairead]

14. NO.

[Meldread]

18. I think it should be changed.

HOWEVER, I think it should only begin to apply to those who enter the country AFTER the bill takes effect. (Therefore eliminating a possible Schwarzenegger run for President.)

[Dookus]

36. So you'll

sacrifice the principle itself just to prevent one guy from running?

the right thing to do is the right thing to do, regardless of whether you like or dislike the people who may benefit from it.

If Arnold could get the nomination and then win an election, well, that's just Democracy.

But I don't see that happening.

[question everything]

21. Yes and No

Yes, for someone who has lived here 25 years or more. No... if it is done to pave the way for Ahnold...

[ringmastery]

22. What are you worried about?

You seriously think Governor Gangbang will get the Republican nomination, ever?

Give me a break, the christian right in the south would never go for it.

[DjTj]

23. Sure - we could just make it 35 years...

...which is the current standard for those born in America.

Seems fair enough to me.

[Leilani]

25. No

We have a lot more important issues to deal with.

[incapsulated]

27. Isn't the threat of President Ahnold justification enough???

I think it should stand as it is.

It doesn't seem right for someone who is forgien born to become President anymore than for an American to become British Prime Minister.

[Dookus]

30. No it isn't justification enough

Should women be denied the right to vote because it means Phyllis Schlafly gets to vote? Of course not.

The principle is bigger than the individuals involved. There's no logical reason to discriminate against good citizens who happened to have been born elsewhere.

[incapsulated]

37. I disagree

I can't imagine having the "right" to be President of France just because I lived there a long time. That right is for French People. (ps, I have no idea what the French law is in that regard)

I draw certain lines and this is one of them.

You can still be Govenor of one of the largest and most important States in the U.S.A. and not even be born here.

That's enough.

[bearfartinthewoods]

86. i don't give a flying fuck about france

this country is all about immigrants. and it requires citizenship, not just longevity. a citizen is a citizen. that's the democratic way.

[bearfartinthewoods]

85. no, it isn't eom

[littlejoe]

31. Absolutely not!

[Padraig18]

34. Why not?

:shrug:

[Auntie Bush]

47. Then we will have Arnold for President!

I just couldn't stand that. What if the enemy sent over a plant and was supported and controlled by the Bush family? lol

[Padraig18]

53. What if...

... the old Soviet Union planted sleepe agents here who had a child who was US-born, but still a second-generation 'plant'? He/she would be eligible, but still disloyal. Take Ahhhnuld out of the equation, and look at it objectively. :)

[Zynx]

39. That would be a waste of the country's time to pass that amendment.

[DoNotRefill]

Not only no, but HELL NO.

Changing the Constitution is a huge deal. It shouldn't be done unless there is an incredibly pressing need. Arnie's desire to become president doesn't meet that standard.

As for a rationale for not allowing immigrants to run, try this on. Suppose Prince Charles was incredibly popular here. Suppose he decided that, in addition to being Prince of Wales, he wanted to be the US President too, so he arranged to get US citizenship and run. See the problem?

Is it too much to ask that our President be a native-born citizen instead of a Nazi wannabe???

[Padraig18]

50. Would he be willing to become a US citizen for, say, 25-30 years FIRST?

By the time I would be old enough to be POTUS, I will have lived here for 25 years, and will have been a citizen for 17+. I would have no problem with a 25, 30 or even 40 year-long citizenship requirement, but assuming that birth guarantees loyalty is a bit illogical.

[DoNotRefill]

54. How much is enough?

you can become a US citizen even if you are not living in the US all of the time. So, some kid comes over here, gets citizenship, moves home whil retaining naturalized citizenship status, and then comes back in late middle age to run. True, the person has been a US citizen for X number of years, but he's still not really American.

Birth doesn't guarantee loyalty. But it DOES cut down the chances that the person has conflicting loyalites to their homeland AND the US.

[Padraig18]

59. Fine.

Make it an 'uninterrupted resident citizenship' requirement, then. :)

[DoNotRefill]

67. Do you know how easy it is to set up residences?

I'm currently a legal resident of 3 states.

[Padraig18]

70. 'Physically reside'

Be sorta hard to fake, wouldn't you think?

[DoNotRefill]

73. I'm not faking....

I spend time in three different states every year.

[Padraig18]

75. Key word I noticed: "states"

:)

[Virginian]

100. Do you vote in all three?

[Virginian]

98. I see your point,

You might give Bob Hope as another example of a loyal American who was not a natural born citizen.

My feeling on the matter is still NO.

There are plenty of other things a patriotic naturalized citizen can do. I don't want to change the constitution.

I could give you all kinds of examples of people who are applying for citizenship and don't want to become Americans. They only want to be able to get a job without the H-1b or green card hassles. They will return to their original country if the jobs there start paying better. These people would be the last people I would want leading this country.

[Padraig18]

41. I shall utter the word no one seems to want to say:

"Loyalty". Now, can we discuss this on a substantive, rational basis?

[adadem]

42. What is fundamentally more important

is to have a constitutional amendment to abolish the Electoral College.

[incapsulated]

68. Amen.

And then some.

[bowens43]

56. absolutely not.

[Scott Lee]

58. It's already been amended to allow zombies to run!

*looks in Kerry's direction*

Equal rights for the flesh eating dead!

[GreenArrow]

66. LOL

that's good!

[SadEagle]

61. Yes, I think so.

To pick an extreme example: I've known people who were in the USA for everything but the first years of their lives. People like this are no different from other Americans, but they're not eligible for the presidency. I think providing something like a 35 years of citizenship requirement, instead of the birth requirement, would be fair. On the other hand, I also agree with the poster who said that the amendment should not apply to current politicians --- something like a 25-year phase in, or such, seems reasonable. The decision should be made on principle, and not with a specific individual in mind.

[DemBones DemBones]

62. Why not just grant U.S. citizenship to everyone in the world?

Then we wouldn't be discriminating against anyone.

But where will we all go when the continent starts to sink because there are too many people onboard?

[Scott Lee]

64. The PNACers are in the process of that.

Soon, thanks to US interventionist imperialism, all countries will be made states in the US; making all of their people US citizens.

Problem solved.

[DemBones DemBones]

80. Maybe so, but if that comes to pass,

won't everyone come here and sink the continent?

I'll be glad to go somewhere else, of course, as long as I can have something like what I'm used to as an American. (I never said I wasn't selfish, but I was also lucky enough to be born here, thanks to ancestors of my mother's in the 1700's and, more recently, my dad's parents, who all immigrated to the U.S.)

At some point, all this global moving about has to be controlled, unless we all want to go down the tubes together, rich and poor, native and non-native. (Well, probably not the super-rich, they probably have a Plan.)

[incapsulated]

63. A certain allegiance is assumed to the country of one's birth

Obviously, that is going on faith more than anything else. However, I could live the rest of my days in another country, but I would always be an American.

Given the fact that we have no standards for a person to become our President, other than the "will of the people", I think for security reasons if nothing else, making the bare minimum requirement actually being born here and not in some other country isn't too much to ask.

[Dookus]

74. nonsense

I've known literally hundreds of naturalized US citizens, and they are no less patriotic than natural-born citizens. In fact, I think the opposite is true. People who have worked and sacrificed to become citizens are far less likely to take it for granted than someone who is a citizen by accident of birth.

[incapsulated]

78. And so have I, all good Americans

But I can't vouch for every one of them and neither can you.

I doubt they came here looking to become President, either.

Forgien born Citizens have just about all the rights any natural born Citizen has. Save one. Too fucking bad.

I'm sorry, but this is a non-issue for me.

[DemBones DemBones]

82. Why should foreign-born men like Ahhnold have a right

that I -- and my daughter -- sttll don't have, being native-born but female?

[Dookus]

84. What

are you talking about?

Nothing in the constitution prevents a woman from running for President.

You've made a few very very wrong assertions in this thread.

[Padraig18]

76. I have a deep *love and affection* for Ireland, but no *loyalty* whatsoeve

I legally renounced that allegiance when I became a citizen, and did so in my heart and mind long before that.

[Auntie Bush]

77. Hear! Hear!

[ButterflyBlood]

72. yes

the purpose of the clause wasn't to stop Arnold, it was to stop an Englishman from reinstating a monarchy. Arnold is a red herring.

[IndianaGreen]

79. Yes! America is the only industrialized nation having such a ban

Think about it! We could have better quality candidates running for President. High quality foreign born candidates such as Teresa Heinz and Hadassah Lieberman would be running for President, instead of their controversial and unelectable spouses.

[DemBones DemBones]

81. And how many non-natives get elected

to high office in the other industrialized nations?

How many immigrants are allowed into the other industrialized nations?

[IndianaGreen]

87. Italian born wife of the late Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Ghandi

became one of the leaders of the Congress Party, and will become Prime Minister if her party wins a majority.

Sonia Gandhi

Sonia Gandhi’s opponents have looked exceedingly foolish and nationalistic. It is scarcely surprising that Hindu nationalists should look to the United States, which forbids its presidency to anyone not born in the country, as the example that India should emulate. One would have thought that, in this matter as in most others, the United States sets the standard not for freedom or liberality of interpretation but for jingoism and provincialism.

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/History/Independent/Sonia.html

[Capn Sunshine]

83. Absolutely Yes.

We need that young Mullah in the Philippines to bring his winning ways to the White House!

And somewhere in El Salvador in a slum, the future president of the United States is crying for his bottle!

Oh. I guess they meant European foreign born .

Slippery slope , amigos.

[Enough is Enough]

88. Absolutely not.

Notice this only came up because the terminator is so repug! I STILL believe only those BORN in this country should be able to run for president.

[Cuban_Liberal]

89. Yes.

With resonable residency requirements, etc., I see no reason someone who is foreign-born shouldn't be eligible to become POTUS.

[bitchkitty]

90. if it weren't for the fact that

the Terminator would end up being President, I would be inclined to say yes, let any citizen run for President. This isn't something I've thought about much because it never mattered to me. Until Arnold.

Added: and because Orrin Hatch proposed it. I have to be against it on principle!

[MurikanDemocrat]

91. NO!

Period!

[Indiana_Dem]

96. What was really eerie was the clip from the movie

John Travolta was in and the script talked about how Schwarzenegger became president because of some amendment allowing foreigners to run. They played that clip on MTP during Arnold's interview and that seems really wierd. Something is up. Too coincidental for me.

[MrSlayer]

92. No way. I don't want that idiot as President.

I like the rule the way it is.

[Democat]

93. The constitution should not be altered during "war time"

Or when Bush is in office.

Look what happened with the Patriot Act.

Now is not the time to mess with the Constitution, no matter what the cause.

[NV1962]

101. I'm a foreign born immigrant, and I'm against it

Introduce electoral participation of legal permanent residents in local (municipal) elections instead - that's what is done in the EU, and makes much more sense, as the local community is where everyone is closely involved.

Leave the Government and the Law of the Land to the People.

I find it somewhat, um, distastefully hypocritical that an anti-immigration import hormone basket like the Gropinator gets a pass from fellow anti-immigrant rednecks.

Must have something to do with his blond hair, pale skin and forked tongue: I suspect that deep down there they really want to change the Constitution for Nordic type honkies only.

:shrug:

[NV1962]

102. *ka-boom*

:kick:

[CivilRightsNow]

103. NO.

Our forefathers are rolling over in their graves.