Obama throws his support behind Lieberman

[denem]

31 March 2006

HARTFORD, Conn. --U.S. Sen. Barack Obama rallied Connecticut Democrats at their annual dinner Thursday night, throwing his support behind mentor and Senate colleague Joe Lieberman.

Obama, an Illinois Democrat who is considered a rising star in the party, was the keynote speaker at the annual Jefferson Jackson Bailey Dinner.

.....

Some at Thursday's dinner said that while they were pleased with Lieberman's success in bringing Obama to Connecticut, they still consider Lieberman uncomfortably tolerant of the Bush administration. Obama wasted little time getting to that point, calling it the "elephant in the room" but praising Lieberman's intellect, character and qualifications.

"The fact of the matter is, I know some in the party have differences with Joe. I'm going to go ahead and say it ... I am absolutely certain Connecticut is going to have the good sense to send Joe Lieberman back to the U.S. Senate so he can continue to serve on our behalf,"

http://www.boston.com/news/local/connecticut/articles/2006/03/31/obama_rallies_state_democrats_throws_support_behind_lieberman/

I have nothing to add.

[ingac70]

1. No need to add anything....

That says it all.

[peoli]

119. Obama supported lamont - can anyone google?

I thought members of a site called Democratic Underground might be a little bit more savvy than alot of the posters here. I find the depth of reasons that people come up with to be anti Obama about as shallow as dirt.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/27/ap/politics/mainD8L0MB280.shtml

[silverweb]

120. THANK YOU!

"Democratic Sen. Barack Obama, a vocal defender of Sen. Joe Lieberman earlier this year, is urging Connecticut voters to rally behind his rival, Ned Lamont."

Some of the more venomous partisans here are getting as good as the reTHUGs at promoting partial truths mixed with lies intended to deceive.

On Edit: Welcome to DU! Lovely to make your acquaintance... :hi:

[hedgehog]

204. Clearly, he's a flip-flopper who can't make up his mind!

[George II]

124. "the depth of reasons that people come up with to be anti Obama about as shallow as dirt"

...or the graves of Goodman, Cheney, and Schwerner.

Some so-called "Democrats" here should register as Freepers.

[ooglymoogly]

135. dirt in some places goes very deep.

[marshall]

180. Anti-Obama?

I didn't see anything anti-Obama about the post. Just a rendition of the facts.

[George II]

181. More like a mis-REPRESENTATION of the facts, thank you.

[marshall]

186. How so?

Care to explain? Thanks!

[George II]

203. It happened in March 2006, 5 months BEFORE THE PRIMARY...

in which Obama supported Lamont.

Simple.

[rinsd]

208. Except Obama did not support Lamont in the primary. He supported him in the general election.

This is a stupid issue either way but at least get the time frame right.

[George II]

202. No need to add anything, except....

THE DATE WAS MARCH 2006!!!!!!!

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Progress And Change]

4. you cited obama's record in another thread

This is part of his record as well and deserves to be discussed.

Yes, there should be censorship to protect Jesus H. Obama!

[Horse with no Name]

5. It's less than a year old

and well within the timeframe that Lieberman was considered a traitor to his own party.
Are you afraid that someone might have forgotten this?
If nothing else, it is worthy of a discussion and a rebuttal from his supporters.

Let me add this:
Obama states over and over he would have voted against the war, however, not having an actual vote...hindsight is 20/20.
Yet he supports one of the biggest hawks.
Not only that...how can he, in good conscience, criticize Edwards OR Hillary for THEIR vote on the Iraq War when he supported Lieberman?
That is a huge conflict.
Does he ONLY support Lieberman because he isn't in competition with him?
Does the term self-interest pop into anyone's mind?

[MadBadger]

7. Do I really need to question your 2nd grade math skills?

[Horse with no Name]

10. If they were less than a year ago

AND I am now applying to be a Professor at MIT, then YES...you should.

[MadBadger]

14. March 31, 2006

[Horse with no Name]

16. Excuse me--1 1/2 years ago...semantics aren't going to help you here

Sorry. There is something troubling about this.

[MadBadger]

Did you know that Barbara Boxer, Bill Clinton, Joe Biden, Frank Lautenberg...

Dick Durbin, etc, all campaigned for Liebermann for the Dem. Primary in 2006?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_primary%2C_Connecticut_United_States_Senate_election%2C_2006

[Horse with no Name]

Are they running for President and criticizing war hawks while on the campaign trail?

What did I miss?

My point of contention with this is the fact that he criticizes Hillary and Edwards for THEIR votes, yet Lieberman supported the same war and he stumped for him--against a TRUE progressive candidate.
There is a huge disconnect here.

[MadBadger]

26. I'm sorry, did I forget to include Hillary? Sorry, she endorsed Lieberman during the primary

[Horse with no Name]

28. Is she criticizing other war hawks on the campaign trail?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you not just understand where I am coming from?
He supported a hawk during an election--yet criticizes others for THEIR vote.
I THINK that he should remove THAT particular rhetoric out of his campaign.
We do NOT know how he would have voted had he had the chance...and the fact that he supported a hawk to be reelected is not comforting when he continually slams OTHER candidates for their vote on the same issue.

[MadBadger]

29. Now I'm not saying I would support Joe, which I personally would never do.

But there are more issues than just the war. I know its hard to believe, but some people actually like and respect people they disagree with.

The reason he can criticize them is because though he didnt vote, he is on record as being opposed to it. I've seen the video. He says why we shouldnt go in and predicts what would happen if we did, and hes spot on.

[Progress And Change]

30. on what issues did Obama think Lieberman was better than Lamont?

Face it. Obama did what the rest of the Washington establishment did and rallied behind Lieberman. No audacity for change here...

[MadBadger]

32. He rallied behind his mentor.

[Progress And Change]

35. what happened to his "audacity" for change and principle?

[cuke]

50. Obama's just another politician, pretending to be something new

[Progress And Change]

55. yep

[Skip Intro]

60. That about sums it up.

[Gloria]

138. My first big clue about Obama came when, newly elected, he signed

a 3-book deal (inc. a children's book)....I don't even know if he had cast a vote in the Senate yet.

Early on, he struck me as being a "triangulator in training" and nothing has changed that opinion. I esp. dislike his using GOP talking points... even with the NIE report, he's was sabre-rattling the other day against Iran. (Kyle Amendment, anyone?)

I think he's Hillary-lite...

[hedgehog]

205. Now, if it had been a 4 book deal, would that have made him a

quadrilateraltor in training?

[Bjorn Against]

49. If Joe Lieberman is his mentor, then that does not reflect too well on him

Why did he allow Lieberman to be his mentor in the first place? And why the hell would he rally behind him? I don't give any of the other Lieberman backers free rides either, and I am not about to give Obama a pass for considering Lieberman to be his mentor.

[SOS]

64. Might want to spend 5 seconds on research

Obama backed Lamont in the general election.

[karynnj]

113. No he didn't

[George II]

160. We need more than " no he didn't " to be credible

[karynnj]

182. You didn't ask that of the one making the claim

and they are the ones that were wrong. I did link to proof elsewhere on the thread.

[George II]

187. Sorry, Obama DID support Lamont in the general election

Why ask for "proof" when I already knew it was true?

[SOS]

164. "Lamont Gets Help From Obama"

(AP) Democratic Sen. Barack Obama, a vocal defender of Sen. Joe Lieberman earlier this year, is urging Connecticut voters to rally behind his rival, Ned Lamont.

The Illinois senator and potential 2008 presidential candidate sent an e-mail message Thursday praising Lamont.

"Ned Lamont has waged an impressive grass-roots campaign to give the people of Connecticut a choice in the November Senate election," Obama wrote. "Please join me in supporting Ned Lamont with your hard work on-the-ground in these closing weeks of the campaign."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/27/ap/politics/mainD8L0MB280.shtml

[Alexander]

201. Yes he did. Quit making dishonest statements.

[karynnj]

114. No he didn't he endorsed Lamont

See the first article on this post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2857163&mesg_id=2857163

[zazzle]

133. We have Obama's record - he "supported the troops" by voting for every war funding bill for 2 years

until after he announced he was running for president.
Why did Obama stop voting with Repubs to "support the troops"?
Why did Obama vote against Kerry's redeployment bill June 2006?
Follow the money....

[George II]

128. YES!!!!!!

[ronnykmarshall]

88. Exactly

and then both Obama and Hillary endorsed Lamont in the general.

If I recall Hillary donated $1 million from her race to Lamont's and they both asked Lieberman to not run against Lamont.

[George II]

127. Barack Obama, the true LOYAL Democrat

He "stumped" for him when there were two DEMOCRATS vying for the nomination. After Lamont won the primary and the nomination Barack Obama LOYALLY SUPPORTED THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE! Sadly many "Democrats" here can't comprehend the concept of loyalty.

[Mojorabbit]

132. I thought Leiberman

in his campaign was all for ending the war ....till he got elected.

[asdjrocky]

36. Not Edwards...

He campaigned for Lamont.
Just sayin...

[MadBadger]

37. I know, you mentioned that in the other thread

Good for Edwards.

[bvar22]

53. Worth repeating:

Edwards campaigned for Lamont.
Just sayin....

[Ignis]

78. B-b-but ... Snake Oil! Career Politician! Too smiley!

:rofl:

Facts like this just put shame to the lies spread about Edwards' integrity, don't they?

Thanks for the reminder, asdjrocky!

[ooglymoogly]

137. So that is some kind of big hoop?

They should be doubly ashamed. Lie-berman is the biggest war hawk in the senate. Lest we forget one million innocent men women and children are dead because of the efforts of Lie-berman and like minds.

[digidigido]

151. But

They may have supported him in the primary, but the supported Ned
in the general election

[9119495]

104. Recind that MIT ap. I shudder to think of the future of America

if you get a job there.

Am I special because I am a professor too?

[Radical Activist]

8. An incumbent Democratic Senator supported another incumbent Democratic Senator

Its hardly unusual or surprising and it doesn't make Obama a conservative.

I notice that in all the posts claiming Obama is conservative they rarely say anything specific about his actual record or policy positions. Its always how something he said can be interpreted a certain way or guilt by association. Why is that? Why can't people point to his record to make him look conservative? Is it because he has a consistent progressive record more so than other candidates? Yeah, I bet that's why.

[Progress And Change]

11. so the senate club is more important to obama than the war?

Odd...

I pointed to two specific things. On the two biggest domestic issues (health care and Social Security) he is the most right-wing candidate. It is funny how Clinton is painted as conservative when she has a UHC plan and Obama does not and uses right-wing tactics to attack Clinton and Edwards for supporting universal health care.

[denem]

12. Joe was and is a war hawk.

Obama backed the most hawkish Dem of them all, and is always saying he was always against the war. Huh? At the least its friendship overriding principle or judgment.

[Progress And Change]

18. where was his "audacity" when it came to standing up for Lamont and the war?

[zazzle]

134. JoBama turned his back on Lamont - and refused to be seen with him publicly!

and the Clintons did the same. Oh sure - they both sent $5K after Lamont won the primary - but that's different from campaigning with Lamont - as John Edwards did.
Obama and Hillary followed the money....the campaign money....via Lieberman.

[Horse with no Name]

13. I could easily vote for Obama

So that isn't the issue here.
The issue is...that just like MANY of his Congressional votes..he could have just opted out.

He is supporting a war hawk in this instance, yet criticizing other ones on the campaign trail.
Do you not see the conflict of interest there?

[Progress And Change]

19. he can't bother to vote on Kyl-Lieberman (the guy he helped...) but flew to CT for Lieberman...

[George II]

154. The Kyl-Lieberman Vote

Was more than a YEAR AND A HALF after he "flew to CT for Lieberman"! And later in the year he came to CT for the Democrats' annual dinner and virtually ignored Lieberman, supporting the true DEMOCRATIC candidate, Ned Lamont.

One day will we be bashing you after Obama gets the nomination for "not supporting the Democratic Candidate"??

[George II]

126. March 2006 is "Less than a year old"?

Time for some lessons in reading a calendar, eh?

March 2006 was prior to the Democratic Primary in Connecticut when Lamont received the nomination. After that, Barack Obama, like a true loyal Democrat (unlike some posters here) threw his support to Ned Lamont.

[denem]

9. Your version of the Big Tent

I think I joined around same time as cuke. I've been reading DU since the Clark/Dean wars in 03.

[Maven]

27. Oh...those terrible, inconvenient facts

getting in the way of hero worship.

[gaiilonfong]

41. Don't forget Boxer CAMPAIGNED for LIEberman

And was ugly about it to anti-LIEberman people in their own state!

[Progress And Change]

3. obama was so "against the war from the beginning" that he supported Lieberman?

So Obama was fighting to have a vote for the war in the Senate instead of supporting Lamont who would be a voice against war...

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Horse with no Name]

15. That picture disturbs me in so many ways...

:D

[Radical Activist]

23. I really like it

It makes me want to find out if the woman is single.

[ClarkUSA]

17. And Bill Clinton campaigned for Lieberman in '06 and Hillary voted for Kyl-Lieberman in '07

Try again. :P

[Progress And Change]

20. what does bill clinton have to do with obama aiding and abetting the war via Lieberman?

There may never have been a Kyl-Lieberman if Obama had the "audacity" to support Lamont, or at least vote "present" and not take a side in the primary. He will fight for Lieberman but not for choice?

[MadBadger]

22. Hillary endorsed Lieberman for the Dem. Primary in 2006

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_primary%2C_Connecticut_United_States_Senate_election%2C_2006

[Progress And Change]

24. and what does that have to do with obama?

[George II]

156. Duh...what it has to do with "Obama" is...

that DEMOCRATS SUPPORT DEMOCRATS! Presumably you support one of the current candidates, meaning you don't support all the others. Using the logic of this thread, you will ONLY be a "loyal democrat" if the candidate you support winds up with the nomination. Otherwise (if you were anyone of importance or ran for office) you could be bashed for not supporting the candidate.

See how it works? This thread would make sense if Obama supported a republican candidate in early 2006 - he's being bashed for being loyal to the INCUMBENT DEMOCRATIC Senator of Connecticut at the time!

According to the logic of this thread, now we should be careful about how we pick and choose the DEMOCRATS we support? Totally ludicrous.

[ClarkUSA]

31. Uh huh

:eyes:

[Progress And Change]

34. helping lieberman would lead to a draft of a retired politician?

Is that what you are seriously suggesting?

[George II]

129. You people are starting to sound like Neocons.

[ingac70]

21. Woulda been nice...

To get Obama on record rejecting Kyl-Lieberman, instead of shirking the responsibilities of his job.

[denem]

25. So Obama can't preach holier than thou on this one..

He campaigned like Bill, he skipped K/L and was out of Washing the night before when the text was being negotiated. And he was the keynote speaker at the Jefferson Jackson when he endorsed Lieberman.

[ClarkUSA]

33. Don't you love those polls showing Obama leading in Iowa and SC among likely voters?

I do. He's only one point behind Her Royal Hillaryness in NH and trending upwards nationally, too.

Don't you love it that voters in the real world could care less about your strawman arguments? I do.

[denem]

38. I say let the best man or woman win

If Hillary's machine nosedives, its a guide to the general election. If Obama inspires Democrats everywhere, ditto. But false premises like I was always completely opposed to the war, while endorsing the biggest war hawk of them all, should be challenged.

[George II]

171. Then why did you start a thread....

...with a misleading and phony criticism of Obama??

[George II]

170. And Lieberman was an unopposed Democratic Senator when Obama spoke at Jefferson Jackson

If he had endorsed someone else at that time you'd be blasting him for not supporting a Democratic Senator.

[Larkspur]

175. Not quite true. Lamont was an official challenger to Lieberman by the JJB dinner.

Lamont formally declared his candidacy on March 13, 2006. The JJB dinner was in the following month. When Lamont attended the dinner after paying thousands of dollars, he and his supporters were seated as far away from the podium as they possibly could put him.

[TheWraith]

39. So did Clinton. And Kerry, and a bunch of others.

Because they knew that there wasn't a prayer of replacing Lieberman, and they didn't want to further alienate him with a nasty primary challenge.

[denem]

40. But they are not claiming implacable opposition to the war

right from the beginning.

[JI7]

42. no, John Kerry did not support Lieberman, he endorsed and campigned for Lamont

and even helped him raise campaign funds.

not that it matters too much here as Kerry isn't running. but Hillary who did support Lieberman is running.

[TheWraith]

54. Kerry backed Lieberman in the primary, Lamont in the general, IIRC. NT

[karynnj]

82. No he didn't - he and Feingold stood out because they REFUSED to

Neither supported Lamont in the primary.

[Tom Rinaldo]

71. Yes. But those Senators backed Lamont in the General Election. n/t

[karynnj]

84. As did Obama

I know he put out a statement and I think he raised money. Kerry and Clark were the two credited by Lamont's campaign manager as the most helpful. The Clintons were a mixed bag. Bill Clinton did a HUGE amount for Leiberman before the Primary - that likely was still a factor in the general election. HRC was less active, but did very little for Lamont - though she gave him Wolfson. :)

[Tom Rinaldo]

161. Good summary. It does seem like the information from Wikipedia

regarding Obama endorsing Lieberman in the General Election is in error. It has a footnote that references a storey in The Hill which can no longer be called up when attempted.

[blm]

74. Kerry campaigned for Lamont - he would NOT support Lieberman in primary, either.

.

[karynnj]

81. Not Kerry

He was NEUTRAL in the primary and very actively for Lamont - more than any other politician, including Edwards. Clinton came to CT a week or so before the primary in August and made a VERY STRONG speech as to why Leiberman was better. He also made a tape for the robo callers to use. This was FAR more than Obama did.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MaineDem]

46. That's pathetic! n/t

[EV_Ares]

48. That actually was the worst I have seen here, no place for such comments here.

[cuke]

51. Very inappropriate

I understand the motivation, but let's not stoop to their level too often

[BeyondGeography]

58. The last refuge of a loser

[BootinUp]

61. This doesn't help

your cause Perry.

[focusfan]

45. i think that just killed it.

anybody being behind a traitor of there on party should'nt
even be acknowlegded 

[MaineDem]

47. This was during the Primary, no?

Did he endorse the Independent Lieberman over the Democrat Lamont during the General?

If so, then I have a serious problem with it. If it was just during the Primary, not so much.

[Tom Rinaldo]

66. Yes he did. One of 5 Democratic Senators to do so:

"Senators Mark Pryor, Ken Salazar, Tom Carper, Barack Obama, and Ben Nelson were the only Democratic Senators who endorsed Lieberman's independent run."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_primary%2C_Connecticut_United_States_Senate_election%2C_2006#_note-thehill

[Cameron27]

self delete

dupe

[Cameron27]

67. I didn't know that Obama supported Lieberman after

he became an independent. There's no way to paint that as a good thing.

[George II]

157. HE DID NOT!!

Lieberman became an independent AFTER he lost the Democratic Primary in August, and once Ned Lamont was declared the Democratic nominee Barack Obama threw his support behind the DEMOCRATIC nominee.

Nice attempt at "Roving" Barack Obama. Many of the posters here should look at Barack Obama to see what a true LOYAL Democrat really is. You all might learn a lesson.

[NYCGirl]

77. Then where does this come in? I think that's a mistake in Wikipedia:

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2006/10/26/221519/73

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/27/ap/politics/mainD8L0MB280.shtml

Democratic Sen. Barack Obama, a vocal defender of Sen. Joe Lieberman earlier this year, is urging Connecticut voters to rally behind his rival, Ned Lamont.

The Illinois senator and potential 2008 presidential candidate sent an e-mail message Thursday praising Lamont.

"Ned Lamont has waged an impressive grass-roots campaign to give the people of Connecticut a choice in the November Senate election," Obama wrote. "Please join me in supporting Ned Lamont with your hard work on-the-ground in these closing weeks of the campaign."

The Lamont campaign said Obama's e-mail went to about 5,000 Connecticut residents.

Lamont aides said they welcomed the support of Obama, who has enjoyed a surge in popularity in recent weeks as speculation about his national ambitions mounts. Obama has also given $5,000 to Lamont's campaign through a political committee.

"Ned Lamont and I share a commitment to bringing our troops home safely from Iraq, to achieving energy independence, to helping all our citizens realize the American dream, and to empowering the American people to reclaim their government," Obama wrote.

[Cameron27]

80. It looks like a mistake in Wiki,

thanks for clarifying.

[Nailzberg]

131. The citation for that little "fact" is a broken link.

But it's on Wiki, so it must be true.</sarcasm>


The entry doesn't meet Wiki's quality standards, and a simple google search will prove it incorrect. I found links to dozens of reputable news sources that all agree Obama endorsed Lamont in the general election, provided money through his PAC, and sent emails urging democrats to vote for Lamont.

As did Clinton.

[Nailzberg]

143. Wiki is wrong.

The citation is a dead link. Check any source other than Wiki and you'll find Obama endorsed Ned Lamont and gave him $5,000 the day after Lamont won the nomination.


http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2006/08/post_50.html
Clinton's HillPAC contributed $5000 to Lamont this morning, as did Sen. Barack Obama's HopeFund PAC.

[Tom Rinaldo]

163. I agree. That citation is wrong. My apology. n/t

[George II]

158. The "source" of that support after Lieberman became an independent

winds up with "PAGE NOT FOUND" - Karl Rove could do no better at lying about Obama's Democratic loyalty.

[Honeycombe8]

52. Nothing wrong with this. Lieberman was Gore's VP candidate, as well.

Democrats are supposed to all support each other. When Obama did this, it was before Lamont became the Dem. nominee.

This type of post is silly.

Rep. Shirley Jackson is supporting Hillary Clinton. Does this mean she is in favor of the Iraq War?

Silly rabbit.

[Progress And Change]

56. Lamont is a Democrat. Obama opted to support the neocon...

[Honeycombe8]

86. As I said, nothing wrong with that...supporting the incumbent Democrat who was Gore's V.P. candidate

And someone who was long-standing in the Congress and who had become a personal mentor of Obama.

We do want someone who unites the country and doesn't refuse to acknowledge people because they differ on one or another issue.

If you think there's something wrong with it, well that's your choice. But it sounds like you're someone who wouldn't vote for Obama, anyway. Those are the only people who would think - or say - there's something wrong with supporting Lieberman in 3/06...those who don't like him, anyway.

[ripple]

91. Actually, Obama supported the incumbent DEMOCRAT

and then threw his support to Lamont once he won the democratic primary. Virtually every other democratic Senator did the same. In case you don't realize this, it is customary for Senators to support incumbents within their own party.

[Larkspur]

176. What support did Obama give Lamont?

Obama had book tours in NY and MA and he didn't bother to stop by CT to stump for Lamont.

I'll give Obama the same support he gave Ned Lamont in the general election -- NADA.

[ripple]

194. He gave him money and an endorsement

In case you're considering any of the other Senators running for president, they did the same. Given that a sitting Senator is likely to be the democratic nominee, I'm sure Romney, Huckabee, or (insert other republican) will appreciate your support.

[George II]

159. Lieberman was an incumbent Democratic Senator

when Obama supported him. Once Lieberman was no longer the DEMOCRATIC candidate Obama supported the TRUE Democratic Candidate, Ned Lamont.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that or accept it? It's clear as day. Obama was and remains a LOYAL Democrat, too bad that can't be said for some of the posters here.

[Skip Intro]

59. That was before we knew what a bush kisser Joe was. It was well known when Obama came to town

to promote him. Apples and oranges.

[surfermaw]

99. Rummors were that Bill Clinton insisted on LIeberman as VP

instead of Edwards....

[Crunchy Frog]

105. Didn't know that Clinton had that kind of power over Al Gore's campaign.

If Gore was that weak, maybe it's a good thing he wasn't elected president.

[ArkySue]

150. I doubt it!

Lieberman was one of the Senators that railed away about Clinton's "indescretion" and thought he should be punished. Can't see Bill wanting to support him after that.

[tammywammy]

57. A lot of democrats supported Lieberman in the Primary

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/27/ap/politics/mainD8L0MB280.shtml

Lamont Gets Help From Obama
Lamont gets help from Obama, Lieberman campaigns with Landrieu

HARTFORD, Conn., Oct. 27, 2006
By ANDREW MIGA Associated Press Writer

(AP) Democratic Sen. Barack Obama, a vocal defender of Sen. Joe Lieberman earlier this year, is urging Connecticut voters to rally behind his rival, Ned Lamont.

The Illinois senator and potential 2008 presidential candidate sent an e-mail message Thursday praising Lamont.

"Ned Lamont has waged an impressive grass-roots campaign to give the people of Connecticut a choice in the November Senate election," Obama wrote. "Please join me in supporting Ned Lamont with your hard work on-the-ground in these closing weeks of the campaign."

The Lamont campaign said Obama's e-mail went to about 5,000 Connecticut residents.

-snip-


It would be most unusual for fellow dems to not support the incumbent dem in a primary. After he lost the primary, they then went on to support Lamont.

[cuke]

62. Obama - He's as bad as the others

Now there's a slogan

[tammywammy]

63. Here's a list of people that supported Lieberman in the Primary

I hate using wikipedia, but this is an accurate list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Endorsements_for_Joe_Lieberman_in_the_2006_Connecticut_Senate_Race

People

* Former President Bill Clinton, who campaigned for Lieberman in Waterbury on July 24
* U.S. Senator Chris Dodd
* U.S. Senator and Minority Leader Harry Reid
* CA Senator Barbara Boxer, who campaigned for Lieberman on July 24
* DE Senator Joe Biden, HA Senator Daniel Inouye, CO Senator Ken Salazar, who campaigned for Lieberman on July 31
* NY Senator Hillary Clinton
* IL Senator Barack Obama
* IN Senator Evan Bayh
* NJ Senator Frank Lautenberg
* DE Senator Tom Carper
* CA Senator Diane Feinstein
* OR Senator Mark Pryor
* OR Senator Ron Wyden
* NE Senator Ben Nelson
* CT Representative Rosa DeLauro
* CT Representative John Larson
* CT Lt. Governor Kevin Sullivan
* CT Secretary of State Susan Bysiewicz
* CT State Comptroller Nancy Wyman
* CT State Treasurer Denise Nappier
* Former Democratic Party Chair John Olson
* All of Connecticut's State Democratic Legislators <1>
* All Democratic CT candidates for U.S. Congress <2>
* Both Democratic CT candidates for Governor <3>
* Republican Congressman Christopher Shays.<4>




Again, since I was here during this time period, it would have been highly unlikely for dems to not support the incumbent democratic candidate. But they didn't support him in the general, they supported Lamont.

[asdjrocky]

70. Notice, once again, who is missing from that list?

Oh yeah, this guy!

[Nutmegger]

73. Edwards made sure he came up here to support Lamont.

He was even the first to call Lamont to congratulate him.

Thank you John Edwards!

[readmoreoften]

153. That's great. That's a definite +1 for Edwards in my book.

If I don't support 3rd parties I don't see why I shouldn't hold elected democrats to the same damn standard.

[George II]

165. "to Congratulate him"...implying...

that was AFTER the primary, obviously. So too did Clinton, Obama, etc. congratulate him AFTER the primary.

Why are you guys so obsessed with democrats supporting democrats? I'm thinking some of these posters are shills for Free Republic, trying to stir up a non-event controversy.

[Nutmegger]

177. Yes it was when Ned Lamont won the primary.

Besides that, he came up here to do a fundraiser for him in New Haven.

I'll always think highly of those who came out here for Ned Lamont and gave him some face time.

Obama could have come out here too. He was all over the country working hard for Democrats .... he could have done more than the e-mail.

The Clintons too. They could have given Lamont some face time. But god forbid we offend that repuke trash LIARman!

But I'll give credit where credit is due, Obama did send him some money and Hillary sent an adviser and money too. I just wish they've done more. In a race as important as this, we needed all the help we could get.

Thank you John Edwards. Thank you John Kerry. Thank you Ted Kennedy. Thank you Wes Clark. As a rabid Lamont supporter / volunteer, I deeply appreciate it.

[tammywammy]

75. He is, he supported Lamont in the General

I'm not sure what he did during the primary.

[Cameron27]

72. Wait a minute,

Bill and Hillary didn't support Lieberman after he went Independent, Tom has a link upthread that shows Obama did.

[tammywammy]

76. They all supported Lamont in the General

The Clinton's & Obama supported Lieberman in the Primary (ONLY)

Lamont gets lift from Obama
http://www.boston.com/news/local/connecticut/articles/2006/10/26/lamont_gets_lift_from_obama_lieberman_campaigns_with_landrieu/

[Cameron27]

207. I know, I amended my post upthread,

but forgot about this one. Obama and the Clintons supported Lamont in the general.

[George II]

166. And that link has been proven wrong

[Capn Sunshine]

65. Including MOST of the pro-Hillary and pro DLC posters here today

another inconvenient truth

Which of course is malleable depending on what suits them.

[cuke]

68. Obama agreed with the DLCers and the pro-Hillary Duers

Go figure

[Capn Sunshine]

79. Yes. ON that issue. Now the same people who agree with HIM try to use it against him

no figuring necessary

[mzmolly]

103. Thought you might appreciate this Captain?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/27/ap/politics/mainD8L0MB280.shtml

[BootinUp]

69. *irony alert* nt

[Capn Sunshine]

83. LOL

More of the same from the "keep it the same" crowd

[ronnykmarshall]

89. Not me darling.

[Capn Sunshine]

98. True. Present company excepted.

excuse my broad brush Ronny K

[ronnykmarshall]

87. Isn't that just crazy?

Both Obama and Clinton endorsed Lieberman in the primary

THEN they both endorsed Lamont. Hillary donated $1 million from her race to Lamont in the general.

Yes, the shark just keeps getting jumped over and over.

[tammywammy]

96. No, what's crazy is fellow Senators endorsing an incumbent Senator!

How dare they???

Now that I know Hillary is a faux pas wearing the same suit twice woman and Obama is really a republican supporting Lieberman, there's no way to vote for either now.





Ehh, who am I kidding, I still like Obama.....and Hillary (a little).

[K8-EEE]

85. Gore Chose Lie-berman as a running mate!

But I'd still consider voting for Gore...

[hedgehog]

90. I'm less concerned with who supported Liebermann before teh primary than

I am that Senator Clinton did not run against the war herself in 2006 and all too often has tried to be both for and against the war since!

Hillary Clinton’s Top 10 Positions on the Iraq War
by Human Events

Posted: 10/09/2007

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=22750.



See also:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/09/AR2007030902034.html

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/123705.html

[Occam Bandage]

92. Yeah, before the primary. Kinda misleading OP.

[WileEcoyote]

93. Obama is weak

It shows in his speeches. Listen to him when he speaks off the cuff. He does it poorly. He isn't listening to his heart but the dictates of wealthy constituents.

Given time he will sell out completely.

A democratic version of Colin Powell but without the war record.

[rockybelt]

94. The citizens of Connecticut

should hang their heads in shame for having elected "joined at the hip" Joe.

[Larkspur]

109. Joe won re-election with 70% of Repuke vote, 54% of Indy vote and over 30% of Dem vote

Lieberman was funded from the same scumbags that funded George Bush's campaigns.

[Nutmegger]

178. Thank you for repeating that.

The Repukes dumped Schlesinger for LIARman!

Hi Larkspur! :hi:

[Larkspur]

179. You're welcome

Hi Nutmegger

[natrat]

95. fuck him and fuck snivelling joe and f......

[surfermaw]

97. That is the only thing that would make me stay home on election day.

Joe Lieberman, is a trader and skunk, I might as well live under another George Bush , as to live u ndere a trader. Couldn't be any worse, and if Obama goes over to Lieberman, he is just as bad. And he would loose the election, so I really wouldn't have to stay home.

[santamargarita]

100. Holy Joe!

I would take Obama off my Christmas list but he was never there!

[mzmolly]

101. I wish I could pretend to be disgusted by this article from March 2006,

but I can't sorry.

Lieberman became Obama's mentor when Obama was sworn into the Senate in 2005. They stayed close at Thursday night's event, too, entering the room together and working the crowd in tandem.

...

See my next post in this thread for more info.

[mzmolly]

102. "Lamont Gets Help From Obama" seven months after the speech above.

Lamont Gets Help From Obama ~ October 2006

(AP) Democratic Sen. Barack Obama, a vocal defender of Sen. Joe Lieberman earlier this year, is urging Connecticut voters to rally behind his rival, Ned Lamont.

The Illinois senator and potential 2008 presidential candidate sent an e-mail message Thursday praising Lamont.

"Ned Lamont has waged an impressive grass-roots campaign to give the people of Connecticut a choice in the November Senate election," Obama wrote. "Please join me in supporting Ned Lamont with your hard work on-the-ground in these closing weeks of the campaign."

The Lamont campaign said Obama's e-mail went to about 5,000 Connecticut residents.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/27/ap/politics/mainD8L0MB280.shtml

[Larkspur]

108. And Obama stabbed Lamont in the back

over an email to Obama supporters that Lamont publicized.

[mzmolly]

110. I don't recall, do you have a link?

Thanks Larkspur. :hi:

[Larkspur]

117. I'm looking for it but here's an old op ed about Obama disappointing progressives

Circling the Square

The link I'm looking for would be in the post Lamont general election loss diaries and/or posts. Give me some time.

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Larkspur]

174. I'm the Secretary of my town's DTC and I was on the front lines for Lamont

as a volunteer in the field. My recollection of Obama during that campaign -- He came to the JJB dinner in March 2006 and plugged for his old mentor Lieberman but after CT Dems, like me, gave Lieberman the boot in the August 2006 primary, Obama gave Lamont and CT Dems his "finger".

I also helped Lamont get NOW's endorsement. I am a board member of CT NOW and we recommended that NOW endorse Lamont and they did, much to Lieberman's displeasure.

The only support I'll give Obama if he wins the Prez nomination, is giving him my "finger".

[George II]

183. I am the TREASURER of my town's DEMOCRATIC Town Committee and so was I on the front lines for Lamont

I stood at the polls for 14 hours greeting voters while holding a Lamont sign on Election Day.

Obama WENT (it's only "came" if you were AT the JJB when you wrote your post!) to the JJB dinner in March 2006 and "plugged" (your characterization) for the INCUMBENT, unopposed (at that time) DEMOCRATIC Senator from Connecticut. He stopped supporting Lieberman once Lieberman no longer represented the Democratic Party.

In reality, contrary to what you say, Obama gave his FULL support to Lamont once he became the Democratic Senatorial candidate.

Go ahead, give Obama the "finger" if he becomes the presidential nominee, but make sure you turn in your Democratic credentials and resign your position in your Democratic Town Committee. By not supporting the Democratic candidate you don't deserve to call yourself a Democrat.

[Larkspur]

118. Found it.

It is in My Left Nutmeg (CT Progressive blog) and links to a DailyKos diary by Tim Tagaris, the Internet coordinator for Ned Lamont and who is now on the Chris Dodd campaign.

CT-Sen: So You Wanna Know What Really Happened?

Here's the section directly related to how the Lamont campaign saw Obama during the 2006 general election...

Barack Obama
Quite possibly the biggest disappointment ... period.

While on his book tour, he was in NYC one day, had a scheduled day off, and appeared in Massachusetts the following day. Yet he couldn't make time to stop in the state between the two on his day off. We made it explicitly clear he was the single senator we wanted in the state above all others.

He declined.

Eventually, we asked Senator Obama to send out an email for the campaign to his Connecticut list. We created a culture in which emails became news (much like we did with the blogs in the primary). They made it entirely clear that he would basically not even mention Joe Lieberman's name in the email, let alone take him to task for his unfortunate position on the war in Iraq. This was disappointing, but I wasn't going to be spiteful. They sent the email, and as I hoped, the press came calling. Our Press Secretary, Eddie Vale, was asked how many people the email went to. He looked on the back-end of the website and saw the number of click-throughs to the landing page I created. He answered "about 5,000." Within minutes of the Associated Press piece going on the wire, I received several phone calls from Obama staff. They were none to pleased about the 5,000 number. Essentially, Obama could be seen as helping, but not helping THAT much. His staff apparently made it clear that the email only went out to 225 people in Connecticut. That's it. The next day we were subject to a correction in the papers and ridicule from Lieberman's campaign and corners of the right-wing blogosphere.

It's also important to note that Obama's email came only after a tremendous amount of pressure built up from portions of various online communities who "threatened" in behind-the-scenes conversations and open discussions online that support for Lamont would be viewed as a part of a "presidential checklist."

Everyone should also know that Robert Gibbs, part of the group that ran the infamous Dean/Osama ad during Iowa 2004, is now Barack Obama's Communications Director.

[George II]

169. So, that's it??

The post in Daily Kos admits that Obama HELPED Lamont, but since the impression of the writer it wasn't as much as he could have, you interpret it as "stabbing" Lamont in the back? I repeat my post a little higher - weak, VERY weak!

[Larkspur]

173. Tim Tagaris was on the inside of the Lamont campaign, so he was AWARE of what Obama's group did to

the Lamont campaign. I was a field volunteer on the Lamont campaign, so I didn't have the inside track, like Tim did. I also know from other friends who were also on the inside of the Lamont campaign they confirm what Tim said about Obama.

Obama NEVER NEVER came to CT to stump for Lamont during the general election. Hillary donated $5K from her PAC to Lamont's campaign and loaned him one of her aides. So did Sen. Russ Feingold, Sen. Ted Kennedy, and Sen. Kerry. John Edwards came to CT to support Lamont. Obama had book tours in NY and MA and he never bothered to stop in CT to stump for Lamont.

If Obama is the Dem nominee for Prez in 2008, I will give him the same level of support that Obama gave Ned Lamont -- NADA.

[George II]

184. Bottom line?

Obama supported Lamont in the general election. That post was written a day or so after the PRIMARY (August 8) So your use of THAT to justify your contention is counterfeit at best. The fact that you use that post as justification of Obama's "Lack of support" in the general election shows your desperation to attack Barack Obama.

Obama gave his FULL support to Lamont in the general election. PERIOD!

Let's see a characterization of Obama's support written after the GENERAL ELECTION and you'll have some credibility.

[George II]

167. When and how?

[femrap]

106. That just makes me sick.

Obama wants to be everything to everyone. He's always 'present,' yet we never seem to know what he TRULY believes in.

And he is going to fight for the 'little people' against the wealthy robber barons of the Corporations? They'll eat him alive. Our nation needs a fighter...and Obama ain't that.

[Bread and Circus]

107. Obama lost my fledgling support with this. I'm sorry I gave him money.

Clark lost my support with his support of Hillary (whom I loathe).

I hope JE makes a surge :P

[Divine Discontent]

136. What support I had for Obama is dwindling... I'm VERY disheartened by the

top two percentage candidate in Iowa, who's campaigns (one would believe, at their request?) do some pretty disgusting things. That Lamont story is upsetting. And then to see him puffing up holey joe makes me ill. PLEASE JOHN, SURGE IN IOWA LIKE KERRY DID!! He's in a good position, the "anti-Hillary" and the "anti-Obama" to many voters, so that helps. But, really, since Clark let me down, and Obama did months ago, I'm really hoping John connects in some speech he gives in Iowa that airs either in a commercial and his pro-citizen message resonates soon! :)

[Imagevision]

149. The support we have here for Obama is going thru the roof...yes!!!

[Exultant Democracy]

145. Funny at the time this happened I wasn't an Obama supporter and it pissed me off a lot, but after he

endoorsed Lamont I forgave him and around 4 months after that I became a supporter. If you are just hearing this story for the first time now then you are pretty out of date and if you take the totality of the circumstance into consideration then I amsume you will see it in another light, since the OP is (considering Obama's endorsement of Lamont rather absurd.)

[IndianaGreen]

111. Bill Clinton also campaigned for Joe Lieberman

What about that?

Obama did not campaign for Lieberman after he lost the Democratic nomination to Ned Lamont. Neither Hillary nor Bill did anything for Lamont.

[Progress And Change]

112. BC isn't running. Obama should have done what Edwards did...

[IndianaGreen]

116. Bill is running indeed! He wants to get back in the WH real bad.

Lock up the women and the cattle, the Clintons are coming!

[Arugula Latte]

115. My decision to switch my support from Obama to Edwards has been confirmed again. nt

[George II]

121. Why do DEMOCRATS continue to attack DEMOCRATS????

Makes me wonder.

[Seabiscuit]

147. It's the primary season. Duh.

[George II]

152. Brilliant - let's talk about the original post

Where the poster, in trying to find fault with Obama dredged up his support of Lieberman from more than a year ago DURING THE PRIMARY SEASON! "Duh"! No mention by the originator of this thread that AFTER the primary Obama supported the DEMOCRATIC candidate, Ned Lamont.

Unfortunately, some "democrats" here lose sight of what it means to be a LOYAL democrat.

[Seabiscuit]

162. I agree that the OP is about the cheapest shot I've ever seen.

And I've seen a lot of it too during this primary season. Not nice.

[peoli]

122. I just learned Edwards got a $400 HAIRCUT

Thats more than my car payment and car insurance! WHATEVER SUPPORT I HAD FOR EDWARDS JUST WENT OUT THE WINDOW! I AM NOW SUPPORTING OBAMA!

This is what you guys sound like. F'ing STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPIDDDD

[Seabiscuit]

148. And I just heard Edwards voted in favor of the IWR! For shame!

WHATEVER SUPPORT I HAD FOR EDWARDS JUST WENT OUT THE WINDOW! I AM NOW SUPPORTING RICHARDSON!

Yup. STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPIDDDD

[George II]

123. Dishonest "Subject"

Was posting the date an afterthought? Should it not have been IN the subject?

Remember, at one time Gore/Clinton (both)/etc. etc. and MILLIONS of Democrats and Americans supported Lieberman - remember he and Gore got about 50 MILLION votes in 2000?

This post is just a misleading and dishonest slam at Barack Obama.

[Skittles]

125. I'll add this

:puke:

[peacetalksforall]

130. The way our leaders support each other has always bothered me

From a shudder to anger. I don't think we peons understand why it goes on there. but there is a bond and I think it affects us. We probably don't notice the postive bonding - I sure notice the offensive bonding.

Reading this has reminded me that I had forgotten H. Clinton's support. I added it to my negative at the time and have not listed it when thinking about how she is not the nominess I want.

So, how do we excuse it all?

The big problem for me is - if I don't understand this bonding that can't be talked about or explained to us, can I take sides? I would like to see both sides, but I'm not privy to why it's there. So, it ends up on the negative side.

I always feel I know where Kucinich is. Why is that?

[madrchsod]

139. another post about-->

[progressivebydesign]

140. I thought this was a headline from The Onion. -- WTF? n/t

[Nailzberg]

144. Might as well be, cause it's false.

[Vickers]

141. Holy shit!!!!! That does it...I'm voting for Hillary.

:rofl:

[grizmaster]

142. I have more issue with Obama doing this

in light of his painting himself as above the often ugly details of Congressional and party compromises that won't pass unbending idealogical standards.

One can take a purely ethical and ideological stand and do it consistently and passionately. My issue here is that Obama has spent some considerable effort to paint himself as beyond this sort of political... well here generally and particularly it breaks down to whether a compromise is worth some long term goal or ethic or if it sells of so much of the claimed goals and ideals that it runs counter in such an egregious way that the action is unacceptable.

I think Obama and ALL the Dem candidates handle this better in serving the immediate and value goals of not only the Democratic Party but of our democracy and Constitutional viability better than the sum of the excised sum of the best qualities of the entire rebub field.

But to return to the immediate consideration of Obama in this case (and ALL elected officials Dem or otherwise in giving Traitor Joe any aid and comfort), I think Obama needs to be able to defend openly some of the ugly decisions that our Congressional and more emphatically our Senatorial system of debate, compromise, and resultant red-headed step-child effective legislation that ACTUALLY has more positive than negative impact. Of course some choices "sell" too much for too little. How those choices are valued are up to us each individually. And I in no way want to diminish the value and truthful weight of those who say "too much is sold" in any case. Women's right to vote and the Civil rights struggles to stamp out Jim Crow provide powerful examples of indecent compromises that were shamefully inadequate steps toward actual rectification. And without dwelling on it, what would be an acceptable ugly compromise, in China, South Africa, Iraq, or American "reconstruction" after the Civil War may be made palatable compared to the alternative human cost should be at least in balance be recognized as plainly wrong in every sense of the word.

Back when apartheid was failing I met a South African legislator who was trying to find a peaceful (and ugly) compromise. I wanted to hate this man for his despicable willingness to stop short of 100% political victory to minimize the blood shed. He revealed his true intent in a situation that would be difficult to summarize briefly. But it made me understand he was willing to let the world think horrible things about him if it saved significant cost in human bloodshed. Maybe he was wrong to compromise, but the way the situation played out the body count was minimized and he was vilified by both sides as traitor to the cause. How much blood would have been worth more immediate gains? What an ugly choice. Adult life, and political life presents such choices.

Obama I think is up to those choices. Obama as President could take a crucial step towards honestly moving the nation towards accepting the thick, ugly, racist, inequality that "contributed" to American dominance economically, militarily, and most erroneously as a leader in basic human freedoms. In my mind's eye I'm not childish enough to demand that America accept gay marriage, accept Iraq's RIGHT of self-determination. But I know with an absurd level clarity that as a nation that is what we should be doing. In case anybody has misread my judgment about anyone supporting Traitor Joe, I find any overt support for LIEberman as so horrible that I get physically ill thinking that I could shake the hand of any politician or candidate that aided Joe in being the key single vote blocking so many decent measures.

I despise every candidate that makes me feel my support is some tentative support for the torture, imperialism, and dismissal that a community of nations can treat each other better than the neocon hate machine envisions, but I relish that Obama has made his most significant dent in the Hillary machine on this human decency turf. But for Obama to sell me he needs to prove that he can OPENLY stomach the change he advocates in real political terms. Obama can be credited already for raising the level of political debate, whether he succeeds individually as a candidate or not matters less to me than where he moves the ugly compromise of accomplish-able goals.

Side note- the Dems should dump Traitor Joe from the majority process. There may have been ugly practical reasons for nominal support last year, but it was wrong last year, and it gets more unforgivable by the day to lend any support to Joe's ass-kissing to the neocon hate machine.

[LeahD]

146. Just gag me. n/t

[readmoreoften]

155. I can't stand Obama, but to be fair, if he only supported Lieberman in the primary

Than he just supported a right-wing democratic hawk over progressive, he didn't necessarily support a candidate outside of the party. More evidence that he is a right-wing democrat in progressive clothing, though. I have enough reason to dislike Barack Obama already without this somewhat misleading OP.

[PufPuf23]

172. Weekly Standard

Now Hillary is next to last in my universe.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/463haksg.asp

[mikekohr]

185. 50 DEMOCRATS, 49 Republicans, 1 Independent Senator

DO THE MATH! Like it or not if we as Democrats push Lieberman hard enough he could (and has indicated that he would) caucus with the Republicans. Anyone on this board that wants Five Deferment Dick Cheney casting the tie breaking vote in the Senate does not belong on this board.

mike kohr

[depakid]

188. He really has been showing his true colors....

I reckon lots of folks are having a bit of buyers remorse.

Can't say I didn't see it coming....

Krugman sees it too.

[tammywammy]

192. He supported Lieberman in the Primary

He supported Lamont in the General election.

[CyberPieHole]

189. Wow, that is news to me...

Obama and Lieberman...who knew?

[NYCGirl]

190. Clinton, Lieberman Call For ESRB Reform

http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/11/clinton-lieberm.html

Clinton and Lieberman refight the culture wars.

Edited to add lovely photo.

[CyberPieHole]

191. Obama is the charlatan who touts himself as the candidate of "change"...

Obama/Lieberman: same same (but different).

[NYCGirl]

195. And Hillary loves her some Joementum! N/T

[CyberPieHole]

196. Barack Hussein Obama has the Joementum going...

for the time being...let's see how it turns out for him.:evilgrin:

[NYCGirl]

197. And Hill and Joe have those nasty video games on the run.

They're doing it for the children. Will someone think of the children?!

[CyberPieHole]

198. Obama/Lieberman are one and the same...

cut from the same cloth.

[tammywammy]

193. He supported Lieberman in the Primary

And Lamont in the General

[Nailzberg]

199. This Bullshit thread is still around????

Puhleaze. :rofl: Let's try to keep the attacks on our rivals limited to the realm of reality.

[tammywammy]

200. If we did that, then this wouldn't be DU

Now would it.

:)

[Stop Cornyn]

206. this debate is incomplete without cali's input