This is the message we need to send about Nader.

[Liberal Veteran]

Bush proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the idea that the democrats and republicans are exactly the same is simply incorrect.

Does anyone honestly believe that we would be in the same place we are right now if Gore had been president the last 4 years? Would we honestly have broken the record of deficit spending? Would we have unleashed "shock and awe" on Iraq? Would we have wasted 200 billion dollars cleaning up the mess that is Iraq? Would we have massive troop deployments? Would we have backed out of several treaties? Would we have a president throwing his weight behind a constitutional amendment to make gays second class citizens? Would we have court appointees that make Scalia look moderate? Would Tommy Chong be in jail for selling pipes? Would we be worried about sneak and peak searches? Would we have a 7 trillion dollar debt? Would we have a president trying to funnel taxpayer dollars to churches and weaken the wall of separation between church and state? Would we be seen throughout the world as a giant flailing about blindly ignoring the consequences to those who are unfortunate enough to be in the way? Would we have people being held indefinitely without access to attorney's or charged with a crime?

The notion that there is no difference between the democrats and the republicans is ludicrous. That is message that needs to be projected because that it effectively neutralizes Nader's entire platform which is basically, "Vote for me because I democrats and republicans are exactly the same."

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Anyone who thinks Dems and Repubs are "essentially the same"

Obviously isn't paying much attention.

[FreakinDJ]

2. from the freerepublic

To: steplock
perhaps some of us should hit the democrat forums and convince the people there to vote for Nader when the presidential race starts. Encourage the far left dems that haven't made up their mind to vote for him so we can split their vote.

48 posted on 08/11/2003 9:02:43 AM PDT by Johnbalaya
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies >

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/961974/posts

[anti-NAFTA]

6. Maybe we should encourage the far right Pubs

to support Roy Moore or Pat Buchanan or whoever runs as the right wing alternative this year.

[MoonRiver]

14. You ought to start a thread. I'm sure people will post many more examples

Nader and Bush: Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Du(mb)

[Ilsa]

3. Amen, lib vet.

It was different from day ONE when The Big Dog took office. All you have to do is compare the executive orders signed the first day in office to see the difference in policy between Democratics and Rethuglicans.


On edit: Is this party everything I want it to be? No. But we can't afford another four years of Bush's warmongering and polluting and fiscal policy.

[Liberal Veteran]

4. That's exactly the point. Nader's empty rhetoric appeals...

...only to those who are overly disgruntled that the democratic party isn't as FAR FROM the Republican Party as they would like. In many respects, I see the sort of people who would buy into Nader's bs as being the same type as the disgruntled conservatives who with to turn the republican party into the Christian Theocracy party. Could we do to be a little more liberal? In my opinion, yes. But I am not going to abandon my party simply because it doesn't cowtow to my every liberal whim.

And personally, my ONLY concern at this point is to get Bush out of office. If that means voting for Kerry who is decidedly more moderate than Kucinich, then Kerry gets my vote.

[anti-NAFTA]

5. Re:

"Does anyone honestly believe that we would be in the same place we are right now if Gore had been president the last 4 years? Would we honestly have broken the record of deficit spending? Would we have unleashed "shock and awe" on Iraq? Would we have wasted 200 billion dollars cleaning up the mess that is Iraq? Would we have massive troop deployments? Would we have backed out of several treaties? Would we have a president throwing his weight behind a constitutional amendment to make gays second class citizens? Would we have court appointees that make Scalia look moderate? Would Tommy Chong be in jail for selling pipes? Would we be worried about sneak and peak searches? Would we have a 7 trillion dollar debt? Would we have a president trying to funnel taxpayer dollars to churches and weaken the wall of separation between church and state? Would we be seen throughout the world as a giant flailing about blindly ignoring the consequences to those who are unfortunate enough to be in the way? Would we have people being held indefinitely without access to attorney's or charged with a crime?"

Clinton seems to have been pushing for an Iraq war. Lieberman is a fanatic when it comes to making the Middle East safe for Ariel Sharon. Clinton passed the Defense of Marriage Act. Janet Reno murdered civilians in Waco. Clinton expanded NAFTA to include Mexico and Chile and then expanded free trade to China. Clinton pandered to the right with welfare "reform".

The difference between Bush and the Clinton wing of the Democratic Party is in degrees only.

I don't like Nader one bit (he's obviously a tool of the right), but let's not kid ourselves that there are some serious problems with our political system.

[Liberal Veteran]

9. Clinton is neither Gore nor Kerry for that matter....

Don't forget which candidate Gore endorsed in this election cycle. It wasn't an "establishment democrat".

[anti-NAFTA]

11. Al "NAFTA" Gore is certainly an establishment Dem.

He endorsed Dean because he learned from his mistakes in 2000. For example, his speeches are now amazing when they were dry as hell before.

The Clinton wing of the Democratic Party is dangerous and must be stopped NOW. Clinton has destroyed our party just like how Bush has destroyed the Republicans, and sadly the public thinks you have to support either one or the other.

edit: By Bush, I mean the Bush family, the godfathers of NAFTA and wars against Iraq.

[Liberal Veteran]

12. Bush 41 WAS the father of NAFTA, period..not the godfather.

And while many democrats including Clinton voted for it, it a much larger proportion of Republicans actually voted to pass it than dems.

[anti-NAFTA]

13. But plenty of Democrats, including Clinton, who gets more respect than he

should, supported it. And we have to stop assuming that whatever Democrat is good and whatever non-Democrat is bad and start looking at the issues. There are Republicans like Richard Shelby whose stance on trade is much more acceptable than that of some Democrats. Our party is taking our support for granted and fielding weak candidates because of it. Nader's candidacy is a message to our party saying, "What the hell are you doing?"

Judging from your avatar, I assume you're gay or support gay marriage rights. How do you feel about John Kerry pandering to the right while the Republicans get to spew the most vitriolic hate speech this side of the Third Reich?

[bhunt70]

7. This is the message we should send Ralph.

When I was a kid I idolized Ralph, wrote book reports about him etc but now I don't have as much respect for him.

[buckeye1]

8. Ignore him.

Never laugh at a loser until he demands success.

[Liberal Veteran]

10. I agree, he still pisses me off.

He's like the guy that won't shut up during a movie. He's pretty irrelevant, he can't win, and now that it's been pointed out to him, he is going to make himself that much more obnoxious.

[Pepperbelly]

15. I was flabbergasted this a.m. ...

when I heard Ralph's conversation with Tubby Russert. I could not believe that he intended to run yet again. Of course, as I listened to him, his positions on virtually everything was spot-on EXCEPT his notions of how to play electoral politics to gain the most for the good guys.

:shrug:

Go figure. I would've thought that the EPA rollbacks themselves would have been sufficient reason for Ralph to stay out the way but I guess i am just an optimist.

[George_Bonanza]

16. I doubt Nader would get much support this time around

People have seen what "Tweedledum" has done, and seen that "Tweedledee" is not a wooden puppet. Or is it the other way around? Who cares. People were complacent after the Clinton years. Now after 4 years of Bush to wake them up, there will be no more delusions.

The one thing that irritates me about Nader supporters, rather than Nader himself, who is a good man, is that their main argument for Nader always is in the negative. "Nader will be a great president because John Kerry sucks, or Howard Dean sucks, or Wesley Clark sucks, etc." And the great joy of that argument is that the Greens have no chance in hell in winning the presidency, since they don't even have a national infrastructure. So the self-assured claim that Nader is great because Candidate X is flawed is never refuted in the news or reality.