Obama on IWR: "What would I have done? I don't know"

[Skip Intro]

From only a month ago, but germaine because it has been a constant theme in this race, and provides context for the blowup over the K/L vote during today's debate.


And WHY did he say these things, and more, about a vote he slams his rivals for? Political caldulation, he says so himself:


------------------------------------

MR. RUSSERT: You were not in the Senate in October of 2002. You did give a speech opposing the war. But Senator Clinton’s campaign will say since you’ve been a senator there’s been no difference in your record. And other critics will say that you’ve not been a leader against the war, and they point to this: In July of ‘04, Barack Obama, “I’m not privy to Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don’t know,” in terms of how you would have voted on the war. And then this: “There’s not much of a difference between my position on Iraq and George Bush’s position at this stage.” That was July of ‘04. And this: “I think” there’s “some room for disagreement in that initial decision to vote for authorization of the war.” It doesn’t seem that you are firmly wedded against the war, and that you left some wiggle room that, if you had been in the Senate, you may have voted for it.

SEN. OBAMA: Now, Tim, that first quote was made with an interview with a guy named Tim Russert on MEET THE PRESS during the convention when we had a nominee for the presidency and a vice president, both of whom had voted for the war. And so it, it probably was the wrong time for me to be making a strong case against our party’s nominees’ decisions when it came to Iraq.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21738432
------------------------------------

And of course we all know how he handled the Kyl-Lieberman vote, which he now attacks his rivals for.


Is this the man of convictions ready to stand for what's important? Really, think about it.

[BeyondGeography]

1. More from the Greatest Near Hits and Misses file

I feel young again.

[ClarkUSA]

7. ROFL

You're floating like a butterfly and stinging like a bee these days, BG. :toast:

[ClarkUSA]

2. So now you're attacking Obama for being a loyal Democrat in trying not to upstage Kerry/Edwards?

Unbelievable. :eyes:

[BeyondGeography]

4. Russert: C'mon Obama, make your elders look bad

Obama: Not playing.

[ClarkUSA]

8. You got that right

Obama never plays BS footsie games with MSM or politicians. Unlike some candidates we could name who feed stories to Drudge and votes for blank checks for preemptive wars.

[Skip Intro]

9. No, I'm wondering why he doesn't stand up for what he says he believes in.

When can I believe what he says, and when is he saying something other than what he beleives?

Help me distinguish.

[ClarkUSA]

10. You know what I'm wondering? WTH does Hillary believe in- because no one can tell from her parsing

Besides her belief that she should be crowned Queen, er, I mean nominee, that is.

[Skip Intro]

13. Parsing. Was Obama for the war or not? Is what he says today political bs? How can you tell?

You are good at rhetoric, but give me some substance please.

[ClarkUSA]

15. Sorry, I won't play... suffice it to say, Iowans know that Obama (not Bill) always opposed the war.

Say, don't you love the new (not month-old) polls that show Her Royal Hillaryness nosediving everywhere?

I do. :smoke:

[Skip Intro]

20. Well, I'll just let Obama's words speak for themselves. They're right up above in case your curious.

[ClarkUSA]

30. Obama's words support the fact that he's a loyal Democrat who supported his party's ticket in 2004.

Thanks for posting them!

[Skip Intro]

32. Don't you get dizzy from all that spinning?

[TankLV]

39. I know I'M dizzy from all his spinning. Simply amazing...

THEY'RE HIS OWN FUCKING WEASEL WORDS GODDAMMIT!!!!

God I hate stupid persons...

[cuke]

56. Obama supporters can only attack

They can't defend Obama's weasel words because there is no defense for them

[BeyondGeography]

12. The worst was when Bill tried to make use of that little interview

to cut away at Obama's antiwar cred and help Hilly. No wonder the party was in shambles after eight years of their "leadership."

[ClarkUSA]

16. The Clintons are only out for #1 -- and they argue about who's #2 constantly

Thanks for reminding all of us of that fact. Minus the Clintonian Kool-Aide drinkers among us, OP included.

[BeyondGeography]

18. To that point...

NYT: You criticize Bill Clinton in your book as an illustration of the painful limitations of charisma.

Sen. Bill Bradley: Bill Clinton was the first two-term Democratic president since F.D.R. and was enormously popular — and yet at the end of eight years in office, there were fewer Democratic senators, fewer Democratic congressmen, fewer Democratic governors, fewer state legislators, and the party was in debt. You can be regarded as a charismatic president, and yet it doesn’t translate into structure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/25/magazine/25WWLNQ4.t.html

[Cha]

26. Hey, that's pretty

interesting! I just got into politics in 2000 and haven't really thought about that but it all kinda makes sense to me.

Dean is about "structure" and I like that.

[ClarkUSA]

37. Bill Bradley was the antithesis of Clintonian

He is spot-on. Clinton was the best thing that ever happened to the post-modern Republican party in many ways as described by Bradley.

[aquart]

17. Attacking? Not at all. Noticing.

He condemns ambition and political calculation in others....a wee bit of a hypocrite, perhaps? If he didn't do anything wrong in making a political calculation...how does he criticize others for the same...astuteness?

Must no one ever say anything that would reveal ...not an imperfection...surely not...a GIFT for forethought, preparation, and consideration of the angles?

Like all those "present" votes on abortion in Illinois.

[Renew Deal]

3. I just hit the easy button

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EhpKmQCCwB8

[journalist3072]

5. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a man who wants to be the next POTUS. No thank you. eom

[aquart]

19. NONSENSE.

We WANT a president who can consider the angles. We WANT a president who can duck and dodge when necessary. These are GOOD qualities in a president.

Obama should be proud of his skills. So should his fans.

[TankLV]

40. No thanks - we already CURRENTLY have a "president' who ducks and dodges...

We don't need another rationalizing, weaseling, lying SOB in OUR White House.

Either he is for it or against it - not "I don't know how I would have voted"!!!

[sandnsea]

6. Supporting Hillary at this point

is a sickness. After her comments saying Bush's getting tough on Iran is what caused them to give up their nukes, well fuck her. And to pretend she, of all people, had no CIA info - also bullshit. Not with the contacts the Clinton people have. She's a goddamned neocon.

[ClarkUSA]

14. Speaking of mental illness, 80% of Iowa Republicans still support Bush

There must be a qualitative psychological similarity between the two support bases: Massive cognitive dissonance resulting in political psychosis.

[Cha]

28. Iowa repukes must be

an unhealthy lot..no need to think for themselves when they have limpdick and whatever hatefest they can tune in.

[ClarkUSA]

38. They're damn close to insane

Fortunately, the 20% of Iowans who do not support Bush are ripe to support Obama in the general (at least 230 of them have switched party affilations
to become precinct captains for Obama) -- in the first straw poll of the Iowa State Republican Party, Obama came in third after Romney and Giuliani
and he wasn't even on the ballot!

[aquart]

21. It really isn't possible to take you seriously.

Over the top.

[sandnsea]

24. Consider if it's true for a moment

How about that? Doesn't the Clintons and DLC supporting the neocon agenda make the most sense when explaining her votes and war stance?

[cuke]

59. They can't defend Obama's double talk

One minute he's against IWR. The he's for it. One day his plan is universal, the next it's not. One day his homophobe won't be speaking, the next day, the homophobe speaks. One day he's for declaring the IRG a terrorist nation, and the next, it's a prelude to war

[calteacherguy]

11. Obama did the right thing. You don't attack Democrats in a general election!

Gee, this isn't rocket science, people!

[TankLV]

41. umm - it's BEFORE the fucking PRIMARIES now...

[Renew Deal]

22. Another video that makes the OP look foolish

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rkXYxB7zUb8

[Renew Deal]

23. And another

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sXzmXy226po

[Skip Intro]

25. They don't erase his words, do they? Darn transcripts!

[Renew Deal]

27. lol

Hillary's campaign is so desperate it's pathetic.

[cuke]

58. Obama panders and tilts with the wind. No wonder he spins so much

Once minute he's against IWR. Next minute he's for IWR. One day his plan is universal, then it's not. He is against mandates, but his plan includes a mandate. He isn't going to let the homophobe speak and then the homophobe speaks.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cuke]

76. Another Obama supporter who can't defend Obama's lie

All they can do is attack and deny

[AtomicKitten]

29. Selective quotes = monkey business.

[Skip Intro]

31. Part of a transcript, in context, with the link to the full transcript. What's the problem?

[AtomicKitten]

33. This was debunked by Media Matters.

So, do you want to fix it or shall I?

edited for better link: http://mediamatters.org/items/200711110004

[Skip Intro]

34. How do you debunk a transcript? Btw, your link goes to "page not found."

Would you like to fix your own post before you fix mine?

[AtomicKitten]

35. The point is and jeez I can't believe I have to explain it to you

Russert misrepresented Obama's actual quote and the transcript you are referring to is his show misrepresenting Obama by conveniently leaving out the teensy bit of information that makes his and your attack on Obama complete and utter bullshit.

That's what it means.

[Skip Intro]

36. And the "not much difference" between him and bush on Iraq? And the "room for disagreement" on IWR?

Are those remarks by Obama magically erased by something he said afterward?

[cuke]

60. They can't defend Obama's double talk

All they can do is attack and deny.

You won't hear AK explain how all the things Obama said can be true. The obsessed think that everything he said is anti-war. Even his Yes votes for funding the war

[CyberPieHole]

42. This is just one of many reasons why Obama doesn't have my support...

he's all hot air. If the guy can't move his ass to vote on Kyl-Lieberman, what makes one think he deserves to be elected president. It's just nonsense.

[Little Star]

52. He could move his ass, he just didn't want

his vote on the official record. The way he plays seems like cheating to me. Edwards is my guy (for the record). If this race is just between Obama and Hillary, I'll take Hillary any day. I can at least see her warts and there are many. Him, well he's just a large bit too smooth and conniving for me TYVM! He needs to put his voting ass where his empty words (after a fact) are. He is a US Senator now and every thing he stands for or against (big issues) should be on the official record.

[maximusveritas]

43. Do you guys have no self-respect?

What drives you to write these BS attacks on a good man like Obama?
I don't understand it.

Here he is, trying to help get rid of our horrible President and you guys are attacking him for partisan political reasons. It's disgusting.

[Beacool]

44. Was this sarcasm or did you od on the Kool-Aid???

Laying it a little thick, no?

Obama's voting record in the senate is very similar to Hillary's, no surprise since she was his mentor when he arrived in 2004. So, now he's the hero who will save us from Bush? Please, the guy is the candidate with the least national experience running (state experience is not in the same league).

[maximusveritas]

45. No, you just need to learn to read

Perhaps that's the reason for these attacks. You guys just can't read.

Did I ever even talk about Hillary? And no, she wasn't his mentor. And I never said he was our "hero". But in this instance, he was trying to help Kerry/Edwards defeat Bush. What you call "national experience" I call "Washington experience" and I don't think it's neccessarily a good thing to have a lot of. You need some of it, just to understand the way it works, and Obama has that.

[Beacool]

46. Yes, she was!

When a new senator gets elected they try to befriend a more senior senator to guide him/her through the intricacies of the senate. For example, Hillary's mentor was Sen. Byrd. The senate has very archaic rules and it helps to have somebody to show you the way. Someone once referred to the senate as the last plantation. Women were not allowed to wear pants until the 90s and even today they must wear a jacket or risk being ask to leave the chamber.

As far as his qualifications, we'll just have to disagree. I still don't think that he's ready to be president.

[maximusveritas]

47. Ok, but that was just unofficial

New senators also get assigned to mentors when they come in and Obama was assigned to Lieberman. I guess he figured Hillary would be better for him, which was obviously the right choice.

[Hope And Change]

48. "What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.''

Nice try "Skip Intro" but selective quotes won`t work.

''But, I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports,'' Mr. Obama said. ''What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.''

http://mediamatters.org/items/200711110004?f=h_latest

[maximusveritas]

49. And we now know that those intelligence reports failed

to make the case either. If anything, they made it clearer that the Bush administration was full of it. Maybe if some of our politicians (not naming names) had bothered to read that intelligence, they wouldn't have voted to authorize the President to get us into this mess.

[Apollo11]

50. So Obama is guilty of failing to publicly criticize the Democratic ticket in 2004?

Didn't we already have this discussion like a few weeks ago? :eyes:

[cuke]

64. No, Obama is guilty of lying

He said he didn't know how he would have voted. You're saying that he lied in order to avoid criticizing other dems.

[Apollo11]

66. NOT guilty!

Obama cannot be absolutely certain how he would have voted if he had been in the US Senate in 2002.

But it's difficult for him to imagine that he would have voted for the resolution that was on the table.

So on one hand he cannot know for 100% certain. But on the other hand he has a pretty good idea.

So it's not lying to mention one part and not the other.

Diplomatic, maybe. Deceitful, not.

[cuke]

69. So Obama was holding back his opinion for political reasons

You call that a defense?

And not telling the whole truth is considered deceitful by most people.

[Apollo11]

71. Thanks for the tip

Now I need to tell my wife what I really think about having to spend the whole weekend with her folks.

I'll let you know how the "telling the whole truth" thing works out ... :eyes:

[cuke]

73. So you're opposed to telling the truth

Quelle surprise

[elizm]

51. Out of loyalty to the party nominee (Kerry) right before the election...

And you want to beat him over the head with that now. :think:

[Skip Intro]

53. SO is what he says today HONEST, or Political BS that he really doesn't mean?

How do you know which side of his mouth to believe?

[cuke]

61. They can't defend Obama

Obama says one thing one day and the opposite the next, and it's all OK

[Apollo11]

68. Sure we can.

But fortunately he is not on trial and you are not the judge.

[cuke]

70. LOL!!!

Sure you can.

[elizm]

79. If you call supporting the Democratic nominee political BS...so be it.

You'd twist anything to push your agenda wouldn't you? Hey....See you in Columbia on Sunday! :D

[Skip Intro]

80. They're his words, I didn't twist them. He said them. I just chose not to ignore them.

Unfortunately I have to work Sat - I hate work (but unlike some people I have to show up). But if I didn't, I would certianly find better things to do than worship at the altar of Oprah (or Obama).


nothing personal

:hi:

[laugle]

83. Uggggg......Oprah.........the big "O"

pass the barf bag.....

Hey Oprah--selling a candidate is NOT like selling a book!!!

[cuke]

63. Obama didn't stand on principle. He stood on politics

So much for the New Politics of Hope.

[AtomicKitten]

54. And yet his nonvote STILL beats the hell out of Hillary's YES vote.

Pay no attention to the woman behind the curtain.

[Skip Intro]

55. Wish I had a job where I didn't have to show up & then could seek a promotion based on my perfomance

which I'd prove I deserved by telling you how badly the others who did show up did their jobs.

[AtomicKitten]

57. please continue to argue that voting YES for more war is BETTER than not voting

I love that story.

[Skip Intro]

62. I just don't see where a guy who didn't show up to vote has any room to condemn those who did.

Hey, I'm not the one who said there was little difference between me and bush on Iraq, Obama did. I'm not the one who said there was room for disagreement on the IWR, Obama did. And we both know Obama supported designating part of the Iranian military terrorists, even though he didn't show for the K/L vote. And that's the thing - he supported the action, then missed the big vote, and now criticizes people for doing that very thing. How the hell do you promote such a hypocrite?

Really, is this what we want after eight years of bushco? Someone you can never be sure where he stands, because he's prone to saying things he doesn't mean for political calculation, as shown in the OP - his OWN words? Someone who claims to hold certain views, but oftentimes cannot find it within himself to stand up for those views, to put action behind his words?

Really, dis Hillary to your heart's content, but constant promotion of a candidate who runs from his own words and actions, and readily admits he says things he doesn't mean for political reasons - why?

[cuke]

65. Their "defense" is that Obama lied for political reasons

According to the spinners, Obama wouldn't have voted for the war, but only says he doesn't know how he would have voted in order to avoid criticizing the dem candidates.

Obama was afraid to stand on principle on such an important issue, and Obama supporters are so OK with that they won't defend him

[Apollo11]

67. Nuancing is not the same as lying

Am I lying when I tell my wife that I like her new haircut? :eyes:

[cuke]

72. LOL!!! Denying is not the same as defending, either

And it depends on if you like her haircut

I'm not surprised I have to explain what a lie is to an Obama supporter, but just to help I'll give a few examples

1) It's a lie when Obama says his plan is universal, and then says it is only "virtually universal" and then runs an ad that says it is universal

2) It's a lie when Obama says Clinton won't talk to Iran when the truth is that she will

3) It's a lie when Obama criticizes mandates because they force people to buy insurance when his plan includes a mandate

4) It's a lie when Obama claimed that the bigot McClurkin wouldn't be speaking at the gospel tour.

5) It's a rightwing lie when Obama claims that SS has a crisis

[Apollo11]

75. Are those the best examples you can find?

Let me take those down one by one:

1) The aim is to make healthcare affordable for everyone. The details of how it works in practice will all depend on what gets through Congress. It's the same for all the candidates so-called "plans".

2) The truth is that Hillary is the most pro-Israel and anti-Iran candidate running this time around. If her "Chief Strategist" Mark Penn (former advisor to Israeli leader Begin) tells her that threatening to bomb Iran is the only way to sound tough on national security, Hillary would do it.

3) It's not a lie to talk about the differences between his approach and Hillary's approach.

4) Maybe he didn't know in advance. Maybe his SC campaign team messed it up?

5) In the context of the budget deficit and ongoing demographic change, with more seniors than ever before, it will not be easy for the country to continue paying for social security.

OK. I would love to stick around. But that's me for today. Flame away! B-)

[cuke]

77. And you avoided defending every lie

Nothing in your post explains how Obama has been on both sides of many issues

1) Obama has said his plan is universal, and he's said it is not universal. Don't tell me what "the aim is". Tell me how Obama's plan is both universal and not universal. Obama lied and you can't defend it

2) Obama has said that Clinton won't speak to Iran. Clinton will speak to Iran. Hillary being pro or anti-Iran is not the issue. Nor is Penn. The issue is "Why did Obama lie about Clinton and say she won't speak to Iran?" Obama lied and you can't defend it

3) Why does Obama have to lie in order to talk about differences? It's a lie when Obama criticizes mandates because they force people to buy insurance when his plan includes a mandate. Obama lied and you can't defend it

4) If he didnt know if it would happen, then he lied when he said it wouldn't happen. Obama lied and you can't defend it

5) Obama says there is a SS crisis, and there is not. Obama lied and you can't defend it.

So scurry along. I didn't expect any defense from you

[laugle]

84. I disagree with you. His NONvote was perceived as

a lack of leadership.

I would rather stand-up for something, even if I was wrong, then to stand for nothing..........

[cuke]

86. Of course it was a lack of leadership

Obama did NOTHING about this issue, besides supporting a similar bill, S970. He didn't speak out against this bill. He didn't try to UNITE his fellow dems in opposition to the bill.

He lied and said his non-vote was a "protest" against a "pretext for war". Once exposed, he admitted it was "a mistake"

[Gloria]

78. My suspicions about Obama continue to grow....

I never got on his bandwagon. It was that 3-book deal immediately after being elected that raised the flag for me....

The thought has crossed my mind over the last few days:

If Hillary can be called "Bush-lite", can one extrapolate from that to feel that Obama "Hillary-lite"?

[Catchawave]

81. You're not the only one:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/barack-obama-profile-in_b_75466.html

Barack Obama: Profile In Courage or Political Opportunist?

[Progress And Change]

89. too bad the msm will never let such points see the light of day

[laugle]

82. This is just some of why I cannot imagine

BO as the POTUS! I've tried, but have found little real substance to him.

The experience and leadership qualities just aren't there....IMO

I cannot imagine him fighting back against the RW attack machine, when he seems to get ruffled at some of the mild attacks on him. I have no doubt the MSM has gone very easy on him.

[cuke]

85. He is the candidate the MSM is pushing

They want him because they know he can't fight back

[Progress And Change]

88. yep

[Evergreen Emerald]

87. And the press lets him get away with this time and again.

He continues to fudge his positions. He doesn't vote when he is supposed to so he can avoid taking a stand on issues, and then can later claim his position "although I did not vote, I have always been..."

His inability to take a stand on something makes him a bad president. We need leadership.

And yet, most of the US is unaware of his shifting and fudging...but we sure know about Clinton.