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jackbourassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:35 AM
Original message
Reasons why Obama will gain significantly after he wins Iowa
Now that we have three or four separate polls showing Obama beating Hillary, or at least tied with her in Iowa, I think it's safe now to call the Obama surge in Iowa real. He is also gaining on Hillary in New Hampshire which portends well for his chances in the race AFTER the Iowa caucuses.

There is another point which should concern Hillary Clinton in Iowa though. According to recent surveys, she is third among the top three candidates for second place support. So it would seem that, from my standpoint, she has maxed out her support in the state. Thus, it is my opinion, that her numbers in the state have stagnated just as Obama's support is on the rise. Since Obama already leads her there, I believe he will win the Iowa caucus. In fact, I believe he may win it convincingly (by 10 points or more).

This leads to what will happen in the days AFTER the Iowa caucuses.

There are two groups that I believe will go heavily for Obama in these days: African Americans and current supporters of John Edwards.

If Edwards pulls out of the race after he loses in Iowa, I believe that much of his support will go to Obama. Especially so if he should endorse him. Depending on which poll you read, Edwards currently enjoys about 15% national support on average. Now I don't expect Obama to get the whole 15%, but I think it's reasonable to say that he may come away with 10% or more. This could prove EXTREMELY helpful in other early states like New Hampshire and South Carolina where polls show the race is beginning to tighten as well. If you look at the new New Hampshire poll, for example, combining Edwards' and Obama's numbers puts the latter ahead of Hillary. This doesn't even include the support of INDEPENDENTS who are allowed to participate in the New Hampshire primary. Hillary's numbers are anemic among independents, and polls already show Obama doing far better than she does among them. Let's not forget the role independents played in pushing a marginal 2 or 3 point John McCain lead in 2000 into a 19-point victory. Do not underestimate this factor. These two things alone could give Obama a twenty point victory over Hillary only one week after she loses the Iowa caucus.

Then the support that leaks away from her will become a torrent. With only a couple of weeks to recover before the SUPER DUPER PRIMARY on February 5th, and with Obama matching Clinton in fund raising, I think that might spell DOOM for her candidacy. Especially with an increasingly hostile and skeptical press, who have grown wary of her status as front runner and may wish to throw a wrench into her coronation by becoming more hostile and skeptical than they already have been. (I will concede this point to Clinton supporters. The press' coverage of Obama has been, by and large, more positive than it has been of Clinton's. But I believe she has mostly herself to blame for this for being so standoffish, aloof and unavailable to them).

The second group that I think Hillary Clinton has to become wary of are African Americans. Currently polls show her leading Obama among this important Democratic constituency. But let's be honest here. The reason for this has FAR MORE to do with her husband's popularity with this demographic than anything she has ever done. This is probably where the Clinton brand name is most helpful to her. But let us not forget the obvious: Obama is himself an African American. If Obama should come out of those early primaries with all the momentum, I can not fathom that African Americans would give up the opportunity to support the first black man to be nominated by either major party, and the first to have a credible chance at winning the Presidency. Also, don't underestimate the role Oprah Winfrey will play in "bringing home" professional and/or older African American women when she stumps for him in a few weeks. These groups are, in large part, supporting Hillary Clinton so there will be no "preaching to the choir" going on. Her presence alone will sway Clinton supporters into the Obama camp.

African Americans currently make up about 15 to 17% of the total Democratic voting base. In the south, they represent as much as 50% or higher of the Democratic vote. At present, polls show Hillary leading this group with 43% to Obama's 33%. But before you begin crowing about her inevitability Clinton supporters, keep in mind what I wrote above. If Hillary were to lose HALF of her African American support to Obama it would be a disaster. Half of that support would represent about 5% of her total vote. This would bring on a swing of 10% in favor of Obama (Hillary losing 5% and Obama gaining it). Where national polls currently show Obama trailing Hillary by 12% to 20% nationally, he would make up more than HALF of that number by this swing alone. That doesn't even include my STRONG BELIEF that many people are only "parking" their vote with her. That if her candidacy doesn't look as "inevitable" as it once did, she could lose A LOT more support than just the African Americans and Obama will gain far more than Edwards' supporters and African Americans "coming home."

One final point, don't underestimate national polls against the Republicans. At the present time, the bogus Zogby poll notwithstanding, Hillary does as well as the other candidates against the top and middle-tier Republican candidates. But if Obama beats Hillary Clinton don't be surprised to see a national surge in his favor, much like there was for John Kerry after he won the Iowa caucus in 2004. Independents might flock to Obama, even Republicans may (I have seen polls showing 20% of Republicans willing to support him), just for the fact that Barrack Obama defeated the much-hated Hillary Clinton. Nothing says winner more than winning. If Obama comes away with a 20 point lead in the national race against the Republicans (ENTIRELY POSSIBLE), it would make Hillary's paltry 4 or 5 point leads look ridiculous by comparison. Then another cry of "inevitable" would begin, and those making that cry won't be talking about Hillary Clinton.

If you put it all together, I think Obama finds himself in a very favorable position to knock off the front runner. And remember this, the media --- already wary of Clinton --- love the David against Goliath story. They always route for David.

So for those of you who don't think Iowa matters, especially you Clinton supporters who are already adjusting expectations for a coming defeat by your candidate, I say heed my words: Iowa matters a great deal.

It matters FAR MORE than any national poll you put up here on a daily basis.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's not that complicated...the reason is simple...
He is the corporate media's anointed candidate...

We don't live in a Democracy...it is clear the MSM wants him as the nominee...and they are gonna get him...

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jackbourassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Stop your whining...
The last person on Earth I would expect to be complaining about an "anointed candidate" is a Hillary supporter.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Oh please...
Wake up... you think these polls reflect actual changes in support...

I have never ever met one single OBAMA supporter....

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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. LOL
I think this is flying right over a few heads, though....
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. That's funny, I have yet to meet one single Hillary supporter
I guess it depends on where you are.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. LOL. I hope you are enjoying yourself today SaveElmer. You sure seem to be having fun.
:)
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Fun...fun? Are you kidding?
This is a hughley series...

Our democracy is being stolen right from under our eyes!!!

Why oh why can't we be more like Venezuela...

VIVA CHAVEZ!!!
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jackbourassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. What's wrong Elmer?
Have a Sanka.
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. "corporate media's anointed candidate?" Are you kidding me?
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 08:36 PM by Nedsdag
I was just watching Tweety's dumb show and he was saying how "presidential" she looked in her press conference and the press minions on the panel agreed with him. They were kissing her ass left and right.

Give me a break!
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Then explain the Bloomberg meeting...
Plotting strategy...fine tuning the final push to get Obama the nod...

You don't think the release of all these polls favorable to Obama are an accident do you? I mean c'mon I have NEVER met an Obama supporter...

Obama is the MSM's "corporate candidate" and it has been apparent from day one...

Democracy is dead!!!
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Democracy died when "your girl" cozied up to Murdoch.
Obama had nothing to do with that!

Who's the corporate candidate now?
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Oh please...he's a corporate gigolo...
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 11:45 PM by SaveElmer
Wake up and smell the Benjamins...the corporate media has had their noses up Obamas butt from the beginning...favorable coverage, fawning comments from the sycophantic talking heads...

Completely ignoring his complicity in propping up Chicago slum lords with letters and favors...

And now these bogus polls... who can trust polls delivered to us by people so beholden to their candidate...they are completely rigged, designed by the MSM toward the end they seek...the nomination of one B. Hussein Obama...



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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. Iowa may surprise
a lot of people,
Clinton and Obama
included.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
4. First he has to win Iowa, and that is yet to be seen.
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jackbourassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Whistling past the graveyard...
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 11:43 AM by jackbourassa
...is something you do so well William.

Hey have you guys seen the new Rassmussen poll? This is the poll you Hillarylovers love so much. Well it has Obama within 10. That is even better than what I had posted above.

The news gets worse and worse for Hillary doesn't it?
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. And as you all are so well as saying the fisrt vote has not been cast.
Don't put stock in the polls. Whats changed? :rofl:
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
35. The fact that it's December and not September?
People are starting to pay attention.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. new hampshire has more independents
will obama pick up those votes even if hillary or edwards wins iowa? i think if he wins iowa he will take nh.
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tired_old_fireman Donating Member (323 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
8. You lost me at this line--
If Edwards pulls out of the race after he loses in Iowa


I'm depressed enough without having to think about that possibility right now.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
11. A Minor Point
One final point, don't underestimate national polls against the Republicans. At the present time, the bogus Zogby poll notwithstanding, Hillary does as well as the other candidates against the top and middle-tier Republican candidates. But if Obama beats Hillary Clinton don't be surprised to see a national surge in his favor, much like there was for John Kerry after he won the Iowa caucus in 2004. Independents might flock to Obama, even Republicans may (I have seen polls showing 20% of Republicans willing to support him), just for the fact that Barrack Obama defeated the much-hated Hillary Clinton. Nothing says winner more than winning. If Obama comes away with a 20 point lead in the national race against the Republicans (ENTIRELY POSSIBLE), it would make Hillary's paltry 4 or 5 point leads look ridiculous by comparison. Then another cry of "inevitable" would begin, and those making that cry won't be talking about Hillary Clinton.


1) You are discounting what will be happening on the Republican side...If Huckabee grabs the lead or McCain re-establishes himself they will get positive press too... It's hard to see any of our candidates leading McCain by twenty points in any poll...I don't know how America will react to the prospect of a "President Huckabee"


2) John Kerry or any Democrat never had a large lead against Bush* in polling during 03-04... I saw polls with Clark and Kerry beating him by narrow margins; three or four points at most... If you have these polls please provide them

3) This race will most likely be decided on Super Tuesday... Don't forget NV, MI*, and FL* all come before Super Tuesday... HRC is doing well there... If she loses them all she'll be the first to admit to (herself) her campaign is hopeless... If she does well in those states she cleans up on Super Tuesday...


*I realize the seating of delegates from those states is still in doubt but the media will still cover them and prior to Super Tuesday it's about perception not actual delegates...

Oh, I wouldn't hang my hat on Rasmussen's tracking poll until it's confirmed by other polls of recent vintage...
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jackbourassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I think you miss the point entirely...
Yes she's doing well there...NOW. But the point of my post was what will happen AFTER Iowa.

If Obama wins Iowa and then New Hampshire. Iowa is looking better and better everyday, and New Hampshire HATES frontrunner's. Then all bets are off. I've followed enough elections to know what happens next. Hillary doesn't have a cash advantage that other frontrunner's (see: G.W. Bush) had to "right the course" after falling in early primaries. Obama can match her dollar for dollar.

Early poll numbers are very fluid, as the Iowa and New Hampshire races have shown. So what Florida or other states are showing, especially given the fact that no one is really campaigning there yet is not very convincing. You'll notice Hillary does best in states where there is little attention being paid to the race. The less attention, the better she does. This lends credence to my argument that people are only "parking their votes" with her. Her support, in my opinion, is a mile wide and only an inch deep.

The new Rasmussen poll has ahead by a small 10 points. If Obama wins in Iowa and New Hampshire, expect the flood gates to open.

Then how can anyone call her the front runner if she is only tied or trails Obama in national polls, has as much or less money in the bank as he does, and loses the first two or three primaries to him?

Without the front runner label what will Hillary Clinton have left? You live by the polls, you die by the polls. The media will kill her then, take that to the bank.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I'm Still Waiting
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 02:22 PM by DemocratSinceBirth
I'm still waiting for the poll that showed Kerry soaring ahead of Bush* after he secured the nomination...That was the predicate for you suggesting Obama will soar ahead of his potential Republican challengers once he secures the nomination...I'm also waiting for the national poll that shows Obama garnering twenty percent of Republican votes in head to head match ups with other Republicans...

If you can't provide documentation for your claims the only (logical) inference one can make is you just made it up...


As for your suggestion that losses in Iowa and New Hampshire are fatal to her campaign I have seen candidates from both parties lose both and still win their party's nomination or make a real fight out of it...Some examples; Reagan in 76, Kennedy in 80, Clinton in 92...
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jackbourassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Jesus...
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 02:34 PM by jackbourassa
I never said he led by 20. I said he surged in the Democratic field after HE BEGAN TO LEAD BUSH. 4 or 5 points sounds about right.

Okay?

Now piss off.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. "Now Piss Off"
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 02:40 PM by DemocratSinceBirth
Open your mouth

How do you like them apples, spanky?


on edit- you said Obama was garnering twenty percent of Republican votes in head to head match ups with Republicans...That's what I was referring to...Maybe the fat man in the red suit with the white beard will leave "Reading Is Fundamental" under your Christmas tree...


Heehawhee


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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. There will be no campaigning in FL or MI so those races are more likely to follow national heats (nt
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Ahhh
The inference that Jack draws is that HRC doesn't do as well in contested tastes as well as she does in uncontested states...Given the demographics of IA and NH one can more logically argue she doesn't do as well in homogeneous states as she does in heterogeneous ones...HRC does well among African Americans, Hispanics, Asians, and working class whites, groups that are notoriously absent from homogeneous New Hampshire and Iowa...

Those folks like her and will continue to like her because they do and not because of how much dough she has...

I also find it ironic that after the press "wrecked" Gore and Kerry he's happy to see the press wreck another Democratic candidate but Hillary "won't go quietly into the good night."
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Yup, there's been a surge of positive stories for Obama.
Edwards stories have focused on him in the role of attacker so while they have hurt Hillary, they have not been a gain for him.

The press wants a closer race and will turn on Obama in 2 weeks if a few polls in a row showing him leading Iowa.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I'm Not Convinced The Press Will Turn On Obama
They seem to be invested in his success...

That being said the press doesn't always succede in their mission...They hated Richard Nixon's guts and he came within votes of beating one of the most charismatic candidates in American political history and went on a scant twelve years later to win the biggest pop vote and E C vote landslide in American history...They also hated Bill Clinton's guts...
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
15. I predict an Edwards win in Iowa. He'll scoop up most of the leftovers after
and long night.
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jackbourassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Edwards actually has the softest support of any of the Big 3 in Iowa
Whereas 75% to 80% of Obama and Clinton supporters say their vote for their candidate IS DEFINITE, only 57% say the same about Edwards.

Sorry.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. I'm sorry, but previous caucus voters support Edwards as #1.
It depends on how the GOTV drive will go for the other candidates, but Edwards does not have "soft support" here by any means.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
28.  Edwards will get the lion's share of the Richardson, Dodd, DK "leftovers".
That should put him over the top.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
18. Obama is well positioned to succeed.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
29. So now Obama is playing the "Inevitable" card
I don't think it's going to work for him
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
33. I support Obama but, I would not count my chickens yet.
I am very proud of Obama but, alot could happen before the caucus. I am happy but, cautious. I do not plan to holler until it's over. I warned the Hillary supporters not to get too cocky and now what.
I would advise all of us to just hold tight, support our candidate but, don't get cocky.
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