Why are Dean supporters so Upset?

[TheWhitneyBrown]

Reading the forums it seems as though the supporters of Howard Dean are very much more upset about the loss of their candidate than are those of Carol Mosely Braun, Dick Gephardt, Joe Lieberman, and Wes Clark. All were good candidates, who, because of various shortcomings, decided to drop out of the race. Others have also already lost but have elected to stay in for reasons other than the hope of winning.

Each of the candidates had different reasons for their lack of success, but in the end they all had one thing in common; ordinary Democratic voters decided they preferred someone else.
To blame this on the media, or on the establishment, or some conspiracy, or whatever, is to discount your fellow Democrats as mere sheep. The very fact that they are Democrats who actually made the time and effort to show up at the caucuses and polling places is proof against that notion.

We must all accept the fact that at times, we are in the minority. Even more, I'd like to propose the radical idea that no matter how right I think I am, when 8 or 9 of my friends differ, and after making my best arguments they still differ, well, maybe I'm not as right as I think I am. It's just a notion.

[Cuban_Liberal]

1. They're upset at the non-stop bashing, and overall lack of respect here.

And I can understand why, frankly. I would be, too.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

3. Why do you feel qualified to speak for others?

[Cuban_Liberal]

7. Because I live with one.

Next question?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. Why not let that person speak for his/her self?

[Cuban_Liberal]

13. As soon as he comes home, I'm sure he will.

I was not aware that I needed anyone's permission to convey what I know from personal knowledge. :wtf:

[Skip Intro]

16. On this matter, CL speaks for me just fine

thanks CL

:D

[Cuban_Liberal]

18. You're entirely welcome.

I was and still am disgusted by it. :hi:

[Eloriel]

32. Me too.

In fact, CL has been the MOST respectful non-Dean supporter on DU, AFAIC (and yes, that includes Kucinich supporters, too many of whom were vicious in their attacks on Dean for "lying," which he has NEVER done). And I have appreciated CL's remarks greatly. Just about everyone else coulda taken some lessons from CL.

[Cuban_Liberal]

37. Thank you. You all and Dr, Dean *deserve* respect.

Dr. Dean did some very heavy lifting for our party at a time when we were demoralized and downcast, and we ALL owe him a debt for revivifying us. He is a wonderful person and an even better 'political doctor', because his 'spine transplant' succeeded beyond my wildest hopes.

If we defeat Bush in November, a substantial measure of our success will have been due to Dr. Dean and the fabulous organization of supporters he has built and maintained. :)

[youngred]

86. Never ever?

not in his whole life?

lying, not telling the truth, spinning the truth, telling part of the truth? Which is it? either way he didn't tell the truth.

Dean was treated harshly that's without a doubt some of it deserved, a lot of it not. But that's the same for every candidate

[Eloriel]

99. I have no way of knowing about his "whole life" --

But I know from my own close personal observations of an awful lot (quantity-wise) of what he said while a candidate that the things that were called gaffes, waffles and untruths were misquoted, taken out of context, misconstrued. ThAT's frankly what should bother you because it demonstrates once again that our corporate media is NOT going to accurately report on our candidates, if it serves their purposes not to.

OTOH, if you're calling "I'm the only candidate who was against the war" and perhaps similar things a lie I can't help you. It's shorthand for "I'm the only major candidate..." something you can't really refute. If you want to take exception to it, by all means do so. But it's not a lie in my terms. I understood perfectly well what he meant each and every time he said it.

Should he have been so dismissive of Dennis Kucinich? Perhaps not. But that doesn't make what he said a lie. A LIE involves intent: the intent to deceive. That has never been the case with Dean.

I'll go further. ersonally, I believe Dean is constitutionally incapable of lying.

[youngred]

105. Oh, then if its only shorthand

then it must be ok :eyes:

The point is he KNEW that Kucinich and Sharpton had opposed the war longer than he had. Using your own definition of "intent to decieve" what would you call what he said? When sending a flyer out saying you are the ONLY candidate to oppose the war, that is a lie. It doesn't matter if it's presumed shorthand, it is a lie. I could say 'Bush is the Best president ever', which is obviously shorthand for 'Bush is NOT the best president ever' because everyone knows.A lie, perhaps not, but far far from honest and extremely dismissive. Your assertion that it is not a lie is pure spin.

The Kucinich supporters I know have had no problem with any other candidate, EXCEPT when their candidate is mis-treated and disrespected to begin with. Dean definitely shouldn't have been so dismissive of Kucinich.

Beware the belief that someone is perfect, its a very dangerous thing to believe.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Malikshah]

143. Looks like someone got their answer

Funny how things work out.

Shame-- it's the ultimate silencer.

[Maat]

137. Exactly, CL.

[Padraig18]

117. As the s/o in question, ...

... I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you, Tony! :)

[progressivebydesign]

125. I think Cuban Liberal can speak for me..

..because they have it exactly right! Dean supporters are upset because they had to live through the incessant attacks here.. we had to live through the Osam ads financed by Kerry/Gephardt associates, we had to live through the media destroying of Dean through that stupid scream video... we have a LOT to be upset about.

[RetroLounge]

160. Because HE IS and I agree.

THanks CL...

RL

[DrFunkenstein]

4. "Bush-Lite" and "Cockroaches" Ad Infinitum Certainly Didn't Help

But we dealt with it.

[jonnyblitz]

14. i thought those comments applied to many he was describing.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

91. apparently most didn't think so. eom

[indigo32]

23. Point of issue Dr Funk

While it hurts to have your candidate called names (and it happened on all sides) I think Dean SUPPORTERS (not Dean) have born far worse name calling than most other SUPPORTER groups.

[JNelson6563]

55. If you're waiting for "good point"

don't hold your breath friend. ;-)

Julie

[indigo32]

70. LOL

I think you're right.

[Jen72]

95. Hang on...

Kerry has had a false sex scandal to deal with, that was printed and discussed in the press world wide and a "photo-shop" pick used against him. One week ago, people were running threads calling Kerry all manner nasty of things based on an article from a right-wing source.
I don't believe that Dean has been called "sleezy,an adulterer,a wife-cheater or a gold digger for marrying money."

Saying the Dean is the only one that has been "pick on" is not
accurate. And the name calling from many of the Dean supporters and the anti- ABB supporters has been loud and hard to ignore.

[lyonn]

131. Give thanks

that the Dem party got that all cleared up without repeating the trash including the botox (sp) over and over and questioning all concerned or anyone that even had an "opinion". The media didn't hurt Kerry either, just a couple of quick questions without any "opinion" pieces about the allegations and the matter was dead.

[Jen72]

169. The opinion pieces were all over the foreign press....

Botox is not a serious issue and the sex scandal was intended to hurt
John Kerry. Fortunatly the woman is question had the strength of character and intergrity to deny it. If she was greedy for money, she could have easily said the it was true, even if it wasn't. We have seen it all before.
John Kerry wasn't hurt because he knew it was a lie, however it has done some damage to Drudge who has been shown around the world to be a lier.
It is not true that Kerry has not had things thrown at him by the media. It just hasn't stuck.
Besides the rise and fall of Howard Dean makes a better story.

[NashVegas]

64. The Same Thing Most of DU Was Calling

the DNC and DLC for 2-3 years.

Odd how it suddenly became unfashionable.

[sleipnir]

Not just here, but in the Real World, too!

Everyone was out to get Dean in the Media and the right-wing. Looks like they were successful. The shot down the best candidate we had, and they marginalized the second best (Clark.)

If you ask me, the Pugs got exactly who they wanted to run against, John Kerry. That's who they were hoping for from the day he got into the race.

That's what makes many mad.

[jonnyblitz]

10. exactly. The anti Dean DUers are BRUTAL

I saw just as much venom directed at Dean and his supporters as I did at Bush at times. I became a "default" Dean supporter because of it. I will probably get a few snarky responses to this from those very DUers I mentioned. :eyes:

[West Coast Democrat]

30. Hogwash!!

The Primary Forum is brutal. period. It's not all directed at one candidate and his supporters.

[Must Win 2004]

44. A voice of reason!

Why is there such a feeling of entitlement by Dean supporters?

It seems to me that perhaps they were more emotionally lifted and re-energized by his campaign than those of us who weren't impressed with him.

However, this thread seems whiney as hell.

[Eloriel]

121. um, I don't know what planet you're used to,

but on THIS one, an expectation of being treated with basic respect (that is, NOT abusively)isn't what we call a sense of entitlement.

[West Coast Democrat]

11. Everyone gets bashed around here!!!

Dean supporters don't hold the monopoly on that by any means.

[JVS]

68. Thank you for your understanding

[mandyky]

2. This article sums it up

Yes, Howard Dean is partially responsibl, but the media and the DLC/DNC machinery have totally lost my respect and support.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20040308&s=greider

Dean's Rough Ride
by William Greider

[Armstead]

15. That article is a must-read

Greider hits the nail on the head.

[CityDem]

49. DCL -- Washington Establisment - All Whores

The DLC, Washington establishment, big corporations and a willing media all worked very hard to destroy the Dean campaign. The news coverage and ads run by advocacy groups prior to the Iowa caucaus was despicable. I will not support Kerry or Edwards - they are part of the establishment, status quo, etc. I only support a candidate that shares my views.

[demigoddess]

111. I think a lot of people, media and some democrats,

bought into the idea spread by republicans that Dean could not beat Bush because he was "too liberal". And that forced a shift in the view of some democrats. It feels a lot like when the republicans got the democrats to condemn clinton for his flaws. Dean would have wiped the floor with bush in a debate and that is one reason the republicans had to get rid of him.

[West Coast Democrat]

5. I've been trying to understand it also

I'm a Clark supporter, and I was disappointed when he dropped out. But I didn't try to take it out on my fellow DUers, nor threaten to vote 3rd party.

I am CERTAIN that Dean would want his supporters to move forward in a positive manner, and help the eventual nominee to beat the pants off W. Dean is a fighter, not a martyr nor a complainer.

[wryter2000]

21. For the record

Dean has said more than once since dropping out that his supporters must vote for the Dem nominee. Anyone who insists they can't vote Dem because Dean isn't running is not a Dean supporter, imho.

[West Coast Democrat]

34. Exactly! Dean is a proud Democrat, and he wants to beat Bush

I wouldn't suspect for a second that he would secretly want his supporters to "teach the party a lesson" for not nominating him.

He wants to make this country better. He knows that Democratic administrations are about much more than the person who is president. Many importand and powerful people make up an administration.

[Eloriel]

38. He absolutely did NOT say "must"

And anybody who would misquote him is not a Dean supporter, imho.

Bah. What a ridiculous thing to say.

You get the right to YOUR vote, not mine.

FYI, I'll definitely be voting Dem in November: for Dean. You can vote for whomever you like. Don't try to mess with MY vote. What arrogance.

[West Coast Democrat]

41. Why wouldn't he use the word "must"?

this seems petty.

[Must Win 2004]

48. I too supported Clark.

However, I would never take out my frustration over his dropping out on anyone on a web forum!

[burned]

6. Passion

[Armstead]

8. Because it wasn;t a fair fight

If people choose someone else after a fair fight, that's one thing. But when the game is rigged, it's a different matter. That's why at least I'm really peed off.

The elite in the media and the centrist Democratic Establishment undermined him from the beginning, simply because he dared to even be somewhat populist and progressive.

Even when he was riding high in the polls and support, the Democrats spread the mantra that he was "unelectable" and would automatically be a disaster in the general election. They pushed the image of him as a wild-eyed leftist radical, even though he is a moderate, many-times elected governor.

But then when Kerry surged, suddenly they jumped on board that bandwagon praising his "electability."

[Selwynn]

79. He was never populist and never progressive

And its embarassing how many people bought into that bullshit instead if actually looking at his record. I was initially intriged by Dean thanks to some very early publicity he got clear back last year (cover of time, for instance) but instead of just wanted to believe what I watned to believe I really looked into his record as governor, past speeches and past decisions, and his history of political action - so I wasn't fooled nor did I buy into all his bullshit attempts to pass himself off as a progessive.

[AmyStrange]

142. You never read any of his interviews did you...

because you would know that he ALWAYS said that people would be surprised that he wasn't as liberal as people thought. He was more of a fiscally responsible centrist. He ALWAYS said that in every interview I have ever seen or read.

It's not his fault the media never mentioned that fact or that you ever read it.

And even though he was getting death threats and threats of political anihilation before and having to wear a bullet proof vest after signing the civil unions bill - he still signed it - which makes him atleast a little progressive. Of course, if you don't think civil rights for gays is progressive, then I can see why you think he is bullshit.

Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[Selwynn]

168. I did actually - and then I listened to him stump...

...where he said the exact opposite of that, when he campaigned as the "outsider" democrat would believed it was time for "real" democrats to take back the party, and so on.

One of the biggest reasons I did not support Dean - his campaign never matched up with his own words elsewhere and so many people who supported him were absolutely convinced he was something even he said he wasn't.

[ScreamingMeemie]

9. I think it starts with being referred to as an internet gallery and

continues on from there. I had a glimpse at what could have been. And I didn't catch my first glimpse on a computer screen or at a meetup. I'll continue to work for it. :hi:

[quinnox]

17. My take

Because they had the nomination in their grasp, and Dean snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. I'd be pissed too if my candidate pulled the blunders Dean did that sunk him.

Also, there was always a "Dean or Green" contingent here that were never Dems in the first place, so when Dean drops they went back to third party.

Finally, many of his supporters were youngsters and Dean was their first love in terms of a political race, so they are feeling a big letdown.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

20. Yes, if you remember back to the summer in P&C

there was such certainity in the Dean camp, so much mocking and derision of the other candidates, that it is understandable that it would be hard to adjust.

As a dedicated ABBer, I remember worrying about how I would make the transition to supporting Dean if he won, as well, so I think I understand a little.

[quinnox]

24. Yep

n/t

[Jen72]

102. remember the day that Gore endorsed Dean.

I read endless threads about Dean's nomination being a formality and
how he was sure to be the next President. No need for primaries. I will look in the archieves for a link later.
The Kerry supporters told them to be more curious and they were right.
The people that I saw interviewed loathed Bush and saw Kerry as a great chance.
I was hoping for Clark but Kerry was my second fav. The whole world is nervous, the whole world will breath easier with a Democrat in The White House. No just the USA.

[ScreamingMeemie]

22. Many of his supporters were also older. We had but one under 25 at

our Meetups. Most of us were 30's to 60's, college educated, but not college students. As a mother of two and wife to one ( ;) ) I never could have joined The Perfect Storm...so I stayed home, wrote letters, and was never counted by the media as part of Dean's support group. :hi:

[quinnox]

33. Yea

I'm not saying all Dean people were college kids, I'm just saying that Dean did seem to attract a large part of the youth, and that is to his credit.

[TheWhitneyBrown]

19. You can't blame the media

Without implying that your fellow Democrats are incapable of making up their own minds. The idea that people disagree with me because they are being led around by the nose is quite repugnant. I think it quite possible for someone to have all the information that I have and still disagree. In fact, that is the norm. So let's stop blaming things on the media or the perception. People went to the polls in Iowa and New Hampshire and voted for Dean because they felt he was the best candidate. I respect that. People voted for Kerry, or Edwards, or Clark, for the same reason. I respect that also.

[wryter2000]

25. Welcome to DU, Whitney eom

:hi:

[TheWhitneyBrown]

29. Thanks for the welcome

But what does eom stand for? I would send a private message but I can't yet. I'm learning quite a bit on this thread that helps me understand the hard feelings, actually.

[Old and In the Way]

51. eom= end of message

And welcome aboard, too Ms. Brown eom. ;-)

[Zomby Woof]

60. eom = end of message

And welcome to DU. I look forward to the wisdom of A. Whitney Brown ANYWHERE, especially here.

[reprehensor]

27. You can't be serious.

The media has a hell of a lot more influence than you seem to think.

[cosmicdot]

31. stop blaming things on the media

sorry, no can do

the media is (or is that 'are') irresponsible, tabloid-formatted, sensationalist-oriented, not fair, hardly balanced integral part of the current scene

[MidwestMomma]

61. But didn't we partly blame the media for Gore's lack of credibility?

Are you saying that all the people that voted for Bush or stayed home because they bought into the message that Gore had a problem with the truth came to the correct conclusion and made up their minds without being influenced by the media?

People like to act as if the media doesn't influence them but if you are an audience of the media, you are influenced by it. Why else is advertising a billion dollar industry? Companies buy commercial time on TV because it works.

We at DU are less influenced by the media because we have access to many different information outlets and opinions. Unfortunately, most voters do not have the inclination to go beyond CNN, etc for their campaign coverage.

Am I saying those people that are voting for Kerry are uninformed sheep? No, they are not sheep, but I think they are under-informed. I think, according to what they know, they think they are following the best course to defeat Bush. And maybe they are right. But when poll after poll shows that people are voting for Kerry based on electability and not on the issues, then it's hard not to come to the conclusion that they are voting based on a perceived strength and perception is influenced by the media.

I just don't understand why people have such a problem admitting that the media is influencing voters. I think it's better to admit it and plan on how to fight it than to ignore it.

[AmyStrange]

150. Good analysis...

A good example of the Media spin campaign is the declaration after Iowa and New Hampshire that Kerry was the frontrunner. This declaration fed into his "perceived" electability, which carried over from one state to the next.

Kerry might have been "surging" to the fron, but Dean still had more delegates than Kerry until after South Carolina. He is still in second place ahead of Edwards, but now the media is declaring
it's a two man race between Kerry and Edwards. There is even some talk of not letting Sharpton and Kucinich in on any future debates.

These declarations (in my opinion) are all lies - atleast by ommission.

Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[MidwestMomma]

151. Yes, and who is deciding that Kucinich and Sharpton should not debate?

Why the 2 media sponsors...CNN and LA Times.

And people try to say that the media is not influencing the primary outcome? Pshaw...

[Mairead]

84. No? Why does advertising work so well then?

Many people commit billions of dollars per year to advertising. If the media isn't influential, how can advertising work? Why isn't the money put into, say, product quality instead?

[Pax Argent]

101. Welcome aboard, but there are some truths that are self-evident

The truth here is that we are reliant on the media to provide us accounts of events outside of our sphere of personal experience. The media shapes and controls perception in what they report (or don't) and how they report it. To deny that is naive; to some extent the messenger always controls the message. Some media sources are closer to the objective truth (whatever that is) than others, but all are filtered through personal biases and ultimately editorial direction. Our decisions come, in part, as a result of data input from these sources.

This is why one finds the rampant anger and mistrust of the media in both Left and Right camps. Both sides feel that the media over-emphasizes the opposition's position. Inherently one cannot trust the media to report "The Truth". My feeling is that Al Franken hit it just right in his book Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them when he said that the mainstream media is largely lazy, sensational and opportunistic, but there are definitely dedicated Right Wing media sources (Washington Times, Fox News, New York Post, and of course, Talk Radio). I challenge you to find anyone here on this forum that feels that the media did not torpedo Al Gore in 2000 or that the Idiot King wasn't propped up by the media in the first 3 years of his misrule. These are both cases of media-driven perception pre-empting "reality".

That being said I won't go so far as to say the media was alone in bringing Dean down. All of the institutional parties needed to get Dean out of the way. The Republicans because he was regularly criticizing Bush and bringing up truths that they didn't want folks to hear. An improperly cowed or marginalized Democrat can be a dangerous thing. The mainstream Dems needed to get rid of him because he was pointing out their spinelessness and inability to take a stand without the polls supporting it. The corporate powers that be needed him gone because he might have gotten in the way of allowing them to co-opt the mainstreams of both parties and set their own agenda. Populism is not what any of the players in any party want to see rise as it would get in the way of business as usual.

Finally Dean also contributed significantly to his own demise. To deny that is also naive. I think he had trouble finding the correct balance between politician and fire-breathing populist. Personally I don't think there is one. In the case of Dr. Dean I don't blame the media for reporting his faults and gaffes. I blame them for unnecessary twisting, overemphasis and repetition of things that didn't matter and their facilitation of the destruction of the candidacy of a man whose message very much reflected my own feelings.

[jansu]

141. Exactly!

Well said!

[frustrated_lefty]

26. I'm upset for several reasons.

When Dean said he would break up media conglomerates, he was slaughtered by the media. The 'scream' was played 6 billion times. CNN and ABC later apologized for that, but that certainly didn't fix the damage. They certainly didn't apologize 6 billion times.

Dean supporters have been misportrayed as a bunch of first-time voters in the college age bracket. I'm 35 with 3 kids. Howard Dean talked about issues I really cared about.

Dean has been portrayed as the "angry" candidate, as the leftist from hell unless you want to portray him as a centrist. It really came down to he's on the left or in the center depending on what you want to attack.

Just about everyone says the democratic party owes a thanks to Dean for giving the party its spine back, but these same people were happy to kick him from every direction when he had the lead.

His supporters have had their teeth kicked in, and everyone seems to think we're just going to fall into line, get into lockstep and support what's handed to us.

Our issues are no longer being represented and we are told to 'get over it,' get with the program.

Maybe that doesn't make sense to you, but that's a small fragment, a miniscule portion of why exactly I'm upset.

[Must Win 2004]

52. Your screen name

makes me wonder why you would support Dean. Did you read his record in VT? He is a centrist.

Also, people thanked Dean for re-energizing the party, not for giving its spine back: there's a nuance you seem to miss there.

What issues of yours are no longer being represented? Fiscal conservatism?

[frustrated_lefty]

66. Point by point

Yes, he is a centrist. The point I was trying to make was that he has alternatively been portrayed as far left or dead center depending on what the commentator wants to criticize.

Re: giving the party it's spine back. Hmm. I could do this for you, but try doing a search with the keywords "Howard Dean," "democrat," and "spine." Maybe in the midst of your nuances, you missed what people actually said?

What issues are no longer represented? Well, there is no longer a candidate with Howard Dean's record of preventing child abuse or child sexual abuse. There is no longer a candidate with a record of balancing budgets. There is no longer a candidate who has managed to produce universal health care.

Do you have any other questions?

[Jen72]

106. Well threatening the Media conglomerates

is asking for trouble. The media has huge power across the world.
Speaking out against it is asking for trouble. Look at Earl Charles Spencer.He spoke out at Diana's funeral and the British press, slaughtered him. That is a classic lesson on what happens when you attack the media.

I think the media conglomerates are dangerous and the politians need to choose their issues carefully. Attacking the media even if it is true, is a red rag to a bull. However I don't think that Kerry has continually won purely because of media coverage. It is true that many people have little time in there busy lives to politics but they do understand what Bush has done to their country. They do not want their sons and daugthers, having to fight in wars that never end.
They do not want to be hated by the rest of the world and they want not to worry about the deficit or jobs. They see hope in John Kerry, he is not perfect but nobody is. If he has Clark on the ticket, it would be amazing. Just today, I saw comments from The Pentagon, making veiled threats to Iran over their elections.

I had alot of respect for Dean, he did have media problems but he also
created some.

[frustrated_lefty]

112. He did create some of the problems he faced.

I agree on that. Is it your contention that he was wrong to take a stand?

[lyonn]

128. pretty scary

when you realise that it is a definite no no to say you want to change the media! We are in trouble for sure. Got to play by the rules of the media and the leaders of the parties or you are out. I'm too old for this kind of logic.

[frustrated_lefty]

130. It is scary.

It chills me to the bone.

[JackRiddler]

163. fine logic

well, threatening the oil companies is reckless. They are pretty much tied into the banks and insurance companies, so go screw with that? No way.

Threatening the military-industrial complex? Asking for trouble.

Threatening the spook complex? Are you kidding? They WILL get you.

Threatening the Bush mob? Nah, not really worth it. And they're popular among large groups of the people. Need to get elected.

You get the idea...

[newsjunkie]

170. thats how I see it too

Im in my forties and a fairly moderate Democrat. I never could understand why the DNC tried every way they could to shoot down Dean's candidacy. He couldve run as third party and really caused them problems like Nader did. He got in as a 'Dem from the DEMocratic wing' because they were LOSING and wouldn't stand up against Bush..he wanted to change and improve the party,and then beat Bush,but instead of helping him, they kicked him like a stray dog in the trash can. He has the courage and credentials to fight Bush and win...and he could unite all the folks who have dropped out and become disgusted with Democrat weakness. I signed onto his camp and donated very early on,and I'm still voting for him because he's the best man in the race.

[RichM]

28. Most Democrats ARE mere sheep. Most Americans are sheep; why

would anyone suppose Democrats would be different?

If you grow up in this country, you are reared through public education & the corporate media. Only a small minority of individuals can possibly get through such indoctrination without becoming sheep. And anyone who is ardently loyal to the Democratic Party has already demonstrated fairly serious evidence of sheep-hood.

[TheWhitneyBrown]

36. And You, I assume, are among the Chosen Few?

One of that small minority possessed of the intelligence, the perception, the strength of character, the force of personality, shall we say the sheer genetic superiority to fend off the influences to which so many of your lesser fellow citizens have succumbed?
Well, no doubt that is true. And with even less doubt, I find I must also include myself among this elect minority. The reasons are obvious to all who know me, except perhaps for my ex-wife.
My question is, since we are both part of that elite group who thinks for themselves, what happens when you and I disagree? Since we can't blame it on the media, what then?

[poskonig]

42. I like your style!

welcome aboard! :toast:

[Hav]

43. lol

nice

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

45. I can't think for myself

So I would appreciate it if you would think for me. Thank you.

[RichM]

46. I see no need to personalize it. The case for most Americans being

sheep is rock-solid, even if the conclusion seems disagreeable and unflattering to the majority. To argue against it, you'd have to maintain that advertising, public relations, media exposure, peer pressure & lifelong social conditioning are all forces of negligible effectiveness. If you want to make that case, go ahead and make it.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

62. Too broad a claim to have any real meaning

Obviously people are influenced by their culture. Literature, religion, family,... have some effect on all of us. There are just many flocks: socialist sheep, muslim sheep, republican sheep, Kerry sheep, Kucinich sheep, scientologist sheep... the list goes on.

[RichM]

72. Look: the US political system is organized to benefit the few at the

expense of the many. The cleverest possible way to protect such an unfair system is to constantly portray it as "democracy" - as an honest reflection of the will of the many, when it is in fact not that at all. If you can get large numbers of people to believe this fairy tale, you wind up with the best of all possible worlds: a high degree of control, with minimal public resistance.

To believe we really have a democracy is to gullibly swallow a marketing ploy. Establishment Democrats - agents of the status quo - are part of this ruling-class ploy. So Kerry sheep are really "sheep." Kucinich sheep are not really "sheep," and neither are those further left, because they seriously want fundamental change. Establishment Democrats are basically content with the status quo, or at most a few tweaks in it. Not all sheep are the same. Some want fundamental change; some think the status quo is pretty much OK.

[KFC]

80. So if everybody is a "sheep", what is the point of the term?

There are sheep who will flock to any idea, some knee-jerk for the status quo and some knee-jerk for fundamental change.

Mabye it is a matter of numbers. One million people supporting a cause aren't sheep - the one million and one people supporting another cause are?

[burned]

47. we would simply disagree

but according to your last paragraph in your original post we should give up on our beliefs in the face of opposition.

It isn't going to happen that way with people that really and truly believe in something...ever.

Never ever and thats a good damn thing.

[Old and In the Way]

57. Please don't question one of our really, really smart elitists TWB.

RichM is well lnown on this board for his total disdain of mainstream Democrats. He doesn't respect the majority who clearly favor a candidate who reflects their values/attributes that they seek in a President. So, clearly, they are just not smart enough to be trusted to vote if they cannot see things his way.

[bhunt70]

85. welcome to the board. good stuff.

[Lefty48197]

35. I thought the Dean supporters were taking it quite well

I haven't heard a lot of crying or anything.

[Cuban_Liberal]

I agree.

If anything. I think there has been much less 'lashing out' than would have been expected--- AND justified.

[West Coast Democrat]

39. It's not crying or sadness; it's mostly anger

and I've seen A LOT of it over the past few weeks.

[whirlygigspin]

56. Dean Dean Dean Dean Dean

who needs leaders like him when we have great people like Tom Daschle representing us.

:hurts:

[West Coast Democrat]

58. Gees...Tom Daschle is not running for president

so what's your point?

[Scott Lee]

115. Thank the GODS for small favors

[madfloridian]

126. Is that the Daschle who says the war is going very well?

Move along now,there is nothing here.

[Gman]

40. I use this as a "sanity check"

>Even more, I'd like to propose the radical idea that no matter how right I think I am, when 8 or 9 of my friends differ, and after making my >best arguments they still differ, well, maybe I'm not as right as I think I am. It's just a notion.

[Eloriel]

50. Then you'd both be wrong, at least potentially

That's NOT a good indicator of how accurate your own perceptions or beliefs are. I just heard a statistic last night on the TV, in a segment on gay marrige. When miscegenation laws were in the process of being overthrown state by state, over 90% of Americans still felt that blacks and whites ought not intermarry.

We do NOT have a strict democracy for a very good reason: the majority is NOT always right. In fact, esp. on controversial issues, the reverse is more likely true. If we had a strict democracy, we'd have the "tyranny of the majority."

Having several of your friends disagree with you might be a good impetus for re-evaluating your own thoughts and beliefs, but it's not necessarily a good indicator that you are wrong.

[Must Win 2004]

53. Absolutely right on!

The majority wanted segregation.

The majority didn't want women to vote.

You are correct that we do not have a direct democracy but rather a representative democracy exactly because of the 'tyranny of the majority'.

Thanks for the good post

[TheWhitneyBrown]

67. Too True

For example, after due consideration, taking into account the fact that many of my closest friends, even those I secretly believe to be a bit smarter than I, disagree with my stand on the 2nd Amendment issue, I am sticking to my guns. Literally.
I have given up on convincing most of my liberal friends to accept my opinion on this issue, especially the one I accidentally shot when I was drunk.
On the other hand, I do respect that their opinions are based upon considered but differing analyses of the same facts available to us both, and in certain cases referenced in the previous paragraph, naked self interest and the politics of fear.
What to do now? Well, I love my friends, as mistaken as they may be on this issue. Surprisingly, I find I have much more in common with them than with the idiots I shoot with, most of whom are cops.
So, I cleave to my friends. I don't expect to find some group somewhere who thinks exactly like I do on every issue, and I doubt I would like their company much anyway. Let them mock me because my bike is a Honda and not a Harley, they're the ones with oil stains all over their garage floors. Besides, it's the cagers who are out to get us all.
In essence, our differences are small compared to those we oppose.

[SheilaT]

54. Dean was pretty much the first one

to speak out against George Bush as a candidate. Were it not for him, quite frankly, John Kerry wouldn't be the front runner.

Dean showed the possibility of a truly different candidate, one who would tell the truth no matter what, and it terrified the media. So they destroyed him and anointed Kerry, who's hardly an independent thinker or politician.

Okay, so as some other sad Dean supporters have pointed out to me, the president gets to make all sorts of political appointments, set the tone in all the government agencies, and so long as it's not Bush we'll all be better off.

But for a little while there I thought this country was going to make a huge change from the business as usual corporates interests that have been ruining it for the past thirty years, but it's not to be.

Now that Dean is no longer actively running, I've been able to funnel my energies to helping a woman who's running for Senate here in Kansas against an entrenched right-wing Republican and this way I hope I can do some real good.

[Raya]

78. This is a Total Myth. Sad Propaganda promoted by Dean. Check the Record.

[SheilaT]

165. No, not a myth.

Remind me again of how Wes Clark was opposing the war on CNN. He wasn't. Remind me again how Kerry voted FOR the IWR, No Child Left Behind, and the first of Bush's tax cuts. That's not propaganda. That's the behavior of the men involved.

I could go on but I won't. It was Howard Dean a year ago who started standing up against Bush. It was Howard Dean who made lifelong Democrats such as myself into activists, giving money and time for the first time ever. We're the ones who've revitalized the party, and the rest of you need to appreciate what we've done and hope like hell that we stay in.

My feelings about what's happened to Dean are a lot like my feelings about the stolen election. I will not get over it.

[nonconformist]

59. Pointing out the obvious

We thought our guy was gonna win, for one. Nothing against the supporters of the other candidates that have dropped out, but Dean was considered a shoe-in for the nomination up until Iowa basically. It's a bitter pill to swallow, and it's not made any easier by the people that are clearly overjoyed it happened.

That said, I'm a bit frustrated by the Dean supporters that say they're not voting or going third party. I do think that MOST will come around - give them time. Hammering them over the head with ABB won't do it though. It's only February. Most will do what needs to be done when the time comes.

[Eloriel]

65. A bitter pill manufactured, in part, by the very people who are now

benefitting because he's out -- viz. John Kerry and John Edwards (and all the folks who lined up to help them -- the Gephardts and Vilsacks of the world, the Begalas and Carvilles, etc.).

Plus the media. Plus the GOP.

Edit: I, for one, won't be "coming around." Not here at DU, not in the larger world, not in November in the voting booth. I know of no other way to stop shit like this other than NOT rolling over for it.

[Samantha]

109. I totally agree, Eloriel

The so-called leaders of the Democratic party were quoted in The Washington Post as saying they were alarmed by Dean's rise in the polls. If he didn't do something to increase his electibility, such as winning support in the South, they would do something to stop him. StopDean was not the brainchild of someone with an overactive imagination. And the media, for its own reasons, supported it.

It's not like this is the first time this has happened within our memory. To a large extent, this is the same treatment Al Gore received by the very same power brokers.

To at this point agree to vote for anyone the Democratic party runs, despite his or her participation in dirty tricks or smears, is to condone that conduct. It's rewarding very bad political behavior with your vote, which does, as you point out, only encourage that type of behavior in the future.

And we haven't even addressed the points of the DLC only supporting candidates who supported the Iraq war and the tax cuts. These candidates put forth for our consideration do not represent my interests. I am not voting for them. Although I was not a true Dean proponent, I very admired his smarts and ideas. I admired the way he spoke out against Bush* from the beginning. He has a lot of credibility. I intend to vote for him March 2 in Maryland. I hope he continues to collect delegates and somehow strikes a bargain with say, Edwards, to lasso the vice presidency.

If some negotiation by the DLC is not proferred, their negative behavior towards Dean might backfire in a way they do not like.

[lyonn]

144. bush speak

I do miss Dean. He sure kept things interesting, already Kerry and Edwards are repeating themselves with Kerry droning on and Edwards saying he is going to work on more jobs without much of a plan. But, all I have to do is listen to bush give a speech and I will vote gladly for any democrat. Notice how bush appointed a judge that had been filibustered against? Does that mean he thinks he may not win the election and wants to get as many judges in as possible, that's a good sign anyway. Bush wants to limit severely the amount a person can sue for when it comes to punitive damages. Yes, ABB.

[seaglass]

162. The media claimed he was a shoe-in. It's funny how the

media is right when it's on your side but wrong when it's not.

[madfloridian]

63. The Democratic party heads talked to the media, bigtime.

Are you aware that Florida Democratic chair Scott Maddox has said Kerry could be the winner in
Florida? He criticizes Dean, just as the CA state chair does, in the NYT, no less. They criticize Dean, praise Kerry, say he can win.
This article is archived now, but I have it on my hard drive. Here are the pertinent quotes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/29/politics/campaign/29CAMP.html

SNIP...""Dean is a tougher sell," Mr. Torres said. "Not because of who he is
and who he represents, but because he's perceived as being an angry man."
In Florida, Scott Maddox, the state Democratic chairman, offered a similar
view as he compared Mr. Kerry's prospects in his state with those of Dr.
Dean.

"Florida will be the battleground state in the election," Mr. Maddox said,
"and I think John Kerry can absolutely carry the state of Florida. The thing
with Dean is he seems — his persona — is more liberal. I don't think he's as
liberal as they make him out to be, but the question is could he shake the
moniker."

I am "angry". The Democratic party used the media to hurt Dean. Carville and Begala just about destroyed him on Crossfire.

More quotes from the article about the "concerns" about Dean.
SNIP..."Democratic leaders expressed relief Wednesday at the emergence of John Kerry as the leader of the party's presidential field, after his twin victories over Howard Dean. But they voiced concern about the potential electoral liabilities of Mr. Kerry, a candidate who remains unknown in much of the country."

MORE:
"To the extent to which there is an establishment, it wants what the Democratic primary voters want: the strongest candidate in the fall," said Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana. "I think the consensus is that John will be a more formidable candidate than Howard."

A Southern Democratic state chairman, who would not allow his name to be used, said, "There's been a big sigh of relief," while a national Democratic strategist said: "It has been a sea change. People were worried."

MORE:
"On Capitol Hill, the sense of excitement surrounding Mr. Kerry's back-to-back wins was palpable among Democrats, who are clearly eager to put the divisive primary season behind them. Many lawmakers — some of whom had been privately despondent about Dr. Dean's rise in the polls last year — were finally sounding as though they truly believed they could take on Mr. Bush and win.

"I think what's happened is there's an excitement that we could actually win the presidency, and there's a good feeling that Kerry could do it or that Edwards could do it," said Senator Charles E. Schumer of New York.

Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, reflecting the view of many Democrats, said the race was far from over, but added, "I think he's (Kerry) clearly the strongest candidate, the guy most likely to beat Bush."END SNIPS

Do not pretend to tell me the party did not influence Kerry's rise! Do not pretend to tell me that they did not use the media....this is the NYT they are speaking to.

Yes, the Democrats did have a role in this.

In the end, the party is deciding who the candidate is through tactics such as these....they used the "Dean is not electable" meme and it really took root bigtime. The party IS deciding and the voters are picking up on it.

And they are trying to put all of us on a great big guilt trip. For right now, I am just tired of that.

[Eloriel]

71. Yeah, and that's just what they SAID, not any of what they DID

And there was plenty of that, too.

Pretty sick when your own party brings you down.

[arewethereyet]

69. being upset is their principle trait

and what they're most proud of. Its referred to as "having a backbone". Makes them feel better about how things have gone, so much so that they try and coopt the success of others for somehow having empowered them to do better than their guy. I guess thats sort of true but not in the way that they intend. Kerry WAS doa until Dean self destructed leading up to Iowa thereby leaving a void for the DNC to fill with their disciple Kerry.

[madfloridian]

75. We are always referred to in the 3rd person.

"their" principal trait

makes "them" feel better

Gives one a warm and cozy feeling about one's own party.

[Eloriel]

123. Kery WAS d.o.a. until

he and his "friends" started with the dirty tricks -- just in time for Iowa.

* plants who "volunteered" in the Dean campaign and became precinct captains who did nothing for Dean

* robocalls to known Dean supporters at wee hours to piss them off

* lining up the Vilsack machine so there were a lot of "interesting" things that went on in some of the caucuses

* the Osama ad (yeah, yeah, he supposedly denounced that -- and a damned tepid "denouncement" it was -- more like a mere distancing, really)

* puhs polling, including anti-Semitic remarks about Dean's wife

And I'm sure there are some I forgot. You could add, from the media side, two solid weeks of media reporting on Kerry's "electability" versus Dean, and you could add that Kerry co-opted Dean's message. Hell, even the DNC has co-opted Dean's message, promising in a frenzy of lipservice to "take back the country" in a petition designed to harvest email addresses:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/...1077296825&sign=431151521&sign=431151521&sign=1

Did Dean and his Campaign make some mistakes? Oh, hell yes. Were they big enough and bad enough to bring him down? Oh hell NO.

[burning bush]

127. Preach it Eloriel!

Damn straight Eloriel, these are EXACTLY some of the reasons that I'm upset about Dean's savaging.

Also, when Kerry said "Stop crying in your teacups and get over it" in response to outcries about the stolen election of 2000, I realized what a sack of sh*t he was.

I'm sure he has the same sentiment about the primary irregularities.

I guess I should be happy that such a bastard is apparently going up asgainst Bush in 2004, but IMO winning isn't everything.

Dean would make the better POTUS by far, and I am not at all convinced that Kerry is electable. Wait untill the Dem victory party in December, then I'll accept all the "conventional wisdom" bit about Kerry's electability.

But even then, he'll always be an ass in my book.

[arewethereyet]

134. you mean once the real business of politics started

you know this sort of thing is not new and there are ways to combat it. been thig way forever.

[AmyStrange]

152. hehehehe...

I wonder what you'll say when the Bush 200 million dollar advertising campaign starts up in September. The Jane Fonda, adultry strategy was nothing compared to what's coming..

I'm already reading about rumblings of it from some of the letters to the editors in the local Seattle papers. "...The reason we lost the Vietnam war and more people died then needed to is because of the anti-war movement and Kerry was in the front of it. Worry about your sons and daughters in Iraq..." - and that's just the tip of the iceberg. It is going to be brutal beyond anything you have ever imagined and Kerry is going to lose because of it.

His only chance is to pick Edwards as VP, and it'll still be close.

Rewarding the party for using "business of politics" is also rewarding Repubs for doing the same thing, and that's what most dems miss when they vote to continue business as usual,


Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[arewethereyet]

153. I'll say what I've been saying all along

tha Kerry has WAY too much baggage to win and that he could make Dukakis look good.

OUR only chance is to nominate Edwards. Little for the GOP to attack and they've tried it and failed in NC. John is on the same side as most of America on the things they care about (Iraq, social, education etc) and he has a better plan for what they care about the most, their wallet and the economy (people realize that you don't help one without helping the other) and by extension, their future.

Sure 200m is a lot of money but it you have nothing to spend it on (little negative, even less positive) then its just not that importent.

No need to wonder anymore AmyStrange.

[AmyStrange]

154. He has to get past Dean first...

Edwards is still behind Dean in number of delegates total. But, it will be interesting what happens the next two Tuesdays. Too bad the media has already written off your guy, but I'm sure your guy has a strategy.

Personally, I believe Kerry's only chance of winning is that he picks Edwards as VP. Even then it will be close,

Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[arewethereyet]

155. I hear what you're saying

but most of Deans delegates are super's and won't be his when it counts.

Edwards can't help Kerry in the south so he would be better off getting someone who can shore up some high electorial count contested state.

I know the media would prefer that Edwards go away but somehow he still seems to get people to vote for him. go figure ?

Super Tuesday is the make or break for the southern boy's campaign methinks. Hope he's got another miracle up his sleeve !

[Indiana Democrat]

73. Because, as a whole, they're immature.

The same reason their campaign melted-down.

[madfloridian]

74. Oops! Broad brush strategy again.

I am a very mature, well-educated teacher of 33 years experience.

Your characterization is exactly why I am *disillusioned* lifelong Democrat.

[Indiana Democrat]

77. I SAID "As a WHOLE".

I assumed a teacher of 33 years experience could read. Please forgive me.

[madfloridian]

81. I do not believe you said that.

I find it totally insulting from a person with the Democrat in their user name.

[Indiana Democrat]

83. I don't care what you "Believe". Fact is FACT...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=375368#375823


Maybe your lack of comprehension is the problem?

[madfloridian]

87. I comprehend a whole lot more than I can say.

Thanks for your enlightening posts.

PS I can read, too.

[Indiana Democrat]

88. Then why did you make the mistake?

[sugarcookie]

90. So it would be okay

"based on your way of thinking"

to assume all Kerry supporters are "as a whole" arrogant, condescending rectal sphincters.



Lucky for you..I don't really believe that.

[Indiana Democrat]

92. You're missing something...

...The Kerry campaign hasn't melted-down due to being arrogant, condescending or rectal sphincters.

[sugarcookie]

98. Find 1 post where I have

been an arrogant,condecending rectal sphincter to anyone here.

Please, I dare you!

Can you say the same?

[Indiana Democrat]

100. Ugh...

Start from the beginning and re-read our exchange. See if you can get it this time.

[sugarcookie]

120. See if YOU can get it this time...

Your broad brush statement about Dean supporters was an insult. I used the statement about Kerry supporters as an example of why it is not right to make generalizations.

At least I was "mature" enough to say I know better.

I will say one thing about the Edwards camp. They are at least making an effort to get us all to come together.


Statements like yours on posts like this are only devisive at a time when we are all trying to come together despite our differences.


P.S. I wasn't actually "Upset" until I read I was.

End of discussion

[Indiana Democrat]

122. I didn't "Insult" anyone...

...I told the truth. If someone CHOSES to be insulted by the truth, sobeit.

[Ramsey]

133. One person's truth

Is another person's pile of dung.

What you in fact posted was your OPINION. Understand the difference?

[Indiana Democrat]

135. LOL!!

My OPINION backed-up by a MOUNTAIN of evidence in my favor.

My OPINION = 99.99% chance of being right.

The oposite OPININON = 00.01% chance of being right.


So OK...You got me on a technicality.

[Tinoire]

146. Oh lol.

:eyes:

[Tinoire]

148. Snort. n/t

[sugarcookie]

140. Too late to edit my post

but I wanted to thank the Kucinich camp also for their efforts.

[Tinoire]

145. Well I certainly couldn't find any of yours

That could be characterized that way. On the other hand...

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ramsey]

132. Wrong again

I am a physician, a scientist and a leader at my workplace and in my community. I am most certainly NOT immature.

I support Dean for very rational, practical and ideological reasons, not because I thought he was "electable", which seems to be your guy's main "qualification".

I'll thank you not to make sweeping generalizations about hundreds of thousands of people.

You wonder why we are angry?

[Indiana Democrat]

136. Again...

...As a "Whole", the Dean campaign was immature. So it goes to reason that his supporters would be as well..

As a WHOLE.

[mdmc]

76. I'm upset cause we went from boom to bust

and now we still have Kucinich, yet mainstream Dems won't pay him any mind, but will spend hours shitting on Nader.

[madfloridian]

82. And no one is urging Sharpton to get out of the race either.

.

[Indiana Democrat]

89. Most likely out of fear of being called a racist.

Anyone with any political sense knows he doesn't have a chance. And that opinion doesn't have anything to do with the color of his skin.

[mdmc]

93. He mentioned that he was running for President

because he grew up in the ghetto. He was told that he could never be President.
He is running with the hope of inspiring some little boy or girl to strive for something outside of the inner city.

Sharpton may never be president, however, that inner city boy or girl that he met on the campaign trail may someday grow up to be president.

[Indiana Democrat]

94. Now THAT is a beautiful thing!!

Well put!!!

:)

[mdmc]

97. He pulled that out at an DLC event

At first the crowd was polite. Then he made them laugh (re: gay marrige issue "The issue this November won't be who fall asleep with at night. The issue gonna be will you have a job when you wake up in the morning."). Then he concluded with the message above. Everyone stood for him.

[TheWhitneyBrown]

96. Sharpton is running for President?!!

I wondered why I kept seeing him in all the debates. I always thought he was the funniest one, too. Whoever wins he should always have Sharpton at all the press conferences and state of the unions, just to lighten things up a little.

[DFLforever]

103. I think most of us are pissed with the way the Party and media

torpedoed his candidacy and are particularly disgusted with the behavior of some of the other candidates involved, especially those responsible for the Osama ads. I know I haven't been so upset by the Dem party since 1968 when I didn't vote for their candidate but wrote in instead.

Many of us feel we have no place to go at the presidential level. I may vote for the nominee but I will certainly not support any candidate with money or time who supported the IWR and the Bush tax giveaways. Instead I'll concentrate on putting in Congress and state office Democrats who supported Dean and his mission of reform.

[Indiana Democrat]

104. The BIG BAD "Media".

Such a convenient excuse for submitting to defeat even before the game has been played.

Sigh...

[slinkerwink]

107. let's see what happens when the precious media attacks your guy

[Indiana Democrat]

110. My guy will win or lose regardless of 'The Media".

And I GUARANTEE you that if we lose, I won't be here whining about some non-existent plot by the media to take Kerry down.

We'll win or lose based on our own merits...Just like what happened to Dean.

[KFC]

113. That guy would be the Democratic nominee

I won't savor the eventual attacks on Kerry because I am a Democrat. I'm hoping that Bush will take some this time.

[Jen72]

114. well Kerry has already has a sex scandal thrown at him....

only last week. It was proved a lie, which makes it even nastier.
He won Wisconsin, so he must has survived it well.

[MidwestMomma]

129. Don't worry, when they start attacking the nominee

They'll be back to be mediawhores again and it will politically correct to attack the media on this board again. Until then, repeat after me....

"The media is fair and balanced."

If enough people say it, it must be true. :eyes:

[DFLforever]

108. I am willing to give the media a bit of pass: they were, after all, only

doing their masters' bidding. But whose bidding were the Americans for Jobs, Health Care, and Progressive Values doing? Or the Club for Growth, in this instance? If you know the answer, please PM me.

[Indiana Democrat]

118. Yes, it's one HUGE conspiracy.

Why even try to fight it? How about we all just go sign-up with the GOP right now and get it over with??

[Eloriel]

124. A convergence of interests which end up promoting a

common or shared path of action need not be a conspiracy.

[Tinoire]

147. Why bother going over there to sign up when you can be so much more

effective neutralizing the progressive voice in the Democratic Party?

Hell, you can be pro-war, pro-occuaption, pro-NAFTA, pro-Plan Colombia right, pro-GMO, pro-corporate globalization right here in the Democratic Party.

You can even find DLC-crowned candidates to represent you! No need to go over to the GOP when their work can be accomplished much more effectively with a little cooperation from a certain faction of the infiltrated Democratic Party.

[kaitykaity]

138. Oh, gee, I just LUV being lectured.

Thank You, Sir, May I Have Another? <sarcasm off/>

[Mr_E_Train]

139. Mile wide, inch deep

Dean, , while to much of a loose canon to win the election inspired hard core dems. He reflected their burning hatred of Bush and all things Republican. However thats only enough to draw in the political junkies of the left, not more moderate Dems or the swing voters in the middle who are not that worked up. His support is (was) an inch wide and a mile deep. He has played the role that Buchanan played a few elections back. Like that paleo-con pitbull, Dean attracted the wild eyed, conspiracy minded, mad as hell at the otherside kook fringe of his party. Likewise that was all he attracted because he scared the hell out of the moderates.

In my opinion Kerry will play the role of Bob Dole this go around. The main complaint about Dole was that his support was a mile wide and and inch deep. During that election the Right HATED Clinton... would have slit their rists to be rid of him. Sort of like the Lefts feelings about Bush now. But like the Dole-Clinton contest the party out of power can not manage to field a strong candidate. No one on the Left really loves Kerry, they just hate Bush. A mile wide and an inch deep. The Left will back Kerry, like the Right backed Dole. And like Doles backers there will be no fire in the belly.

The only question is in '05 will Kerry be doing viagra commercials

[chocolateeater]

149. Welcome to DU Mr_E_Train.

If Kerry is the nominee, I hope you are wrong about him. Bush is the worst president in my lifetime.:scared:

[candy331]

161. Dean will surely never die, he'll be talked about

by passionate lovers as well as luke warm supporters to downright total dislikers and maybe even some haters. I really don't think when Dean initially entered the race he ever thought he could win and certainly would not garner the national attention and support that he got and so was ill prepared to handle it. Dean now has power whether ones want to admit it or not and he must take the time with truly loyal supporters and well map out his forward strategy before proceeding or else that power will fall and off he will go into oblivion. Perhaps his second wind was the one meant to sail the ship after all, truly time will tell.

[La_Serpiente]

156. To chime in here

I agree that there were some unwarranted punches at Dean supporters here at DU. However, Dean DID make mistakes on the campaign trail.

In Iowa, a place known for killing negative politicians, Dean and Gephardt thought that they were the ones that would be out on top in Iowa. They had both the endorsements and the LARGEST organizations. So what to do when one wants to be numero uno? Kill off the competition.

Both candidates spent tons of money killing each other in the press and the airwaves. It got so bad, Dean and Gephardt had to make a pact a few days before the election stating that they would cut it out with the attacks.

Dean does bear some responsibility for his fall.

[lurk_no_more]

157. The fact remains that

many here predicted dean:
1)couldn't/wouldn't win the nomination
2)would not make it that far
3)could not beat bush
4)dean would self destruct

And those few/many were right as the voters demonstrated, and the truth hurts.



And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Panda1]

158. Why would you even ask such a question?

Why?

[thebigthink]

159. Seems like a lot of them are kind of new at this.

Probably just never lost one before. The first one is always the hardest.

Also, when you think about it, what is a presidential campaign if not a huge conspiracy to take over the country? That could explain the currency of all the conspiracy theories one hears.

[JackRiddler]

164. Right, a whole bunch of new ones.

But this guy had no chance of crossover appeal, right?

[aquaman]

166. I must say in response to your post...........

Joe Lieberman was not a good candidate.

[TheWhitneyBrown]

167. As a Nutmegger

That is, a Connecticut resident, I must say I stand corrected. What I should have said was, ALMOST all were good candidates, with the exception of that lovable loser Joe Leiberman, who is an overly cautious political hack who never in his wildest dreams would have had national ambitions if that moron Al Gore hadn't picked him as vice-presidential candidate, thereby contributing to his own defeat, or at least not helping himself any, and the only possible reason for voting for Joe would be if you wanted someone who would lose to George Bush and not really mind, like he did when he rolled over on the military votes in 2000. But I was trying to be nice...