The Third Way re: Hillary

[Hailtothechimp]

Isn't that the phrase that we always use when talking about Bill Clinton? "Mend it, don't end it"? and all that.

So let's play the Third Way, Part II

The First Way: Women cannot be president because a man, any man, would be better suited for the job. there are many out there who would accept this. But hopefully nobody here would subscribe to this.

The Second Way: Hillary Clinton must become president. Opposing her means you oppose the idea of any woman ever becoming president. No HRC supporter would own up to believing this, but there is a definite vibe going out to this effect. And many wouldn't agree with this, either.

The Third Way: A woman can, should, and must be president. To disqualify someone based on their gender alone is UnAmerican. However, Hillary Clinton has certain flaws which, as Americans and as voters, we have the freedom to reject. It does not mean we're anti-woman. It just means she is not the woman we want to see taking the oath of office one day.

I'm taking the Third Way outlined above. To recap: Woman someday yes, Hillary in 2008 no.

[Fredda Weinberg]

1. Logical. May we agree to disagree agreeably? I've supported

HRC for years and know why she's the right person for our time. In fact, I'm so confident, there's nothing for me to contribute this election cycle ... it's so satisfying to share.

I hope we can enjoy this season together - you tout your candidate's qualifications and I'll list the reasons for my past efforts on HRC's behalf.

[Rock_Garden]

4. You'd make a good diplomat, Fredda. Well said!

[Hailtothechimp]

15. OK, here goes...

My candidate is Obama, for a variety of reasons.

He inspires me in a way no other candidate does. His books are extremely engaging, and he does not seem to be overly scripted. If he is, he hides it well.

The "experience" thing favors Obama much more than people realize. When you count the state government in Illinois, he has run for office many times, and has only lost one race. But he has lost one, and I think that's important too.

The war vote in 2002 troubles me to no end. I think Obama is right to hammer Clinton, Biden , Edwards and the others for trusting George Bush.

Michelle Obama seems to be first rate in every sense of the word. If you believe that a person's spouse tells you something about them as well, then score one for Obama. And the "he's not black enough" line would have more teeth if he was married to someone who looked like Tipper Gore.

He's honest about his drug use in the past. Clinton hasn't been asked the question, that I know of, and I wonder what kind of test-marketed answer she would give. But Obama was upfront about it, and that speaks volumes to me. Look at how Bush dodged the question, when all I've ever heard about was the booze and cocaine in his past.

And lastly, it is time for a change. Turn the page and let someone who isn't a Bush or a Clinton take over. We don't have monarchies in this country. Yet.

[cuke]

2. There's a Fourth Way, too

Stop obsessing about Clinton and promote a superior candidate

[hfojvt]

7. normally I've gotta do double duty

I wrote an LTTE in October 2000 about the Presidential election. Probably 90% of it was anti-Bush and only 10% was pro-Gore. I liked Gore a lot, but, that was not totally relevant. I would have supported George H.W. Bush if he had been running against George W. Bush. It was AABB then and it's ABC now.

[undergroundpanther]

12. like Dennis?

Dennis is the only one worth voting for.The only true progressive in the race.



Dennis Kucinich is the only democrat running for President who has voted against authorizing the war in Iraq and against funding its continuation.


Dennis Kucinich is the only candidate for President with a plan for a Universal, Single-Payer, Not-for-Profit health care system.

Dennis Kucinich will make it a national priority to fight poverty worldwide. He understands that the path to a safe, strong America is through peace, tolerance and committing our nation to eradicating the root causes of global poverty.


http://www.dennis4president.com/go/issues/

[RC]

3. I agree. We need someone that does not support the war criminals.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2338374&mesg_id=2339055

[Armstead]

5. Good post

I'd only add that she should be accepted or rejected for reasons totally separate from her gender.

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. I disagree

I think her gender is a relevent factor because it helped shape her world experience if for no other reason, women have experienced greater oppresion by and large in American society than men have for one obvious example, but there are others. But it is also relevent because there is a social good (removing one more brick in the wall of sexism) that would be advanced by electing a female President. When the Dodgers signed Jackie Robertson to play in the Major Leagues there was a lot more going on than them just adding a talented infielder to their roster.

Having said that, I do not think that Hillary's gender should be at the top of anyone's list of factors to determin who to vote for. I support affirmative action for example but that doesn't mean that I supported Clarence Thomas getting appointed to the Supreme Court. Hillary Clinton's gender is one among many factors to take into consideration.

[Armstead]

16. It is ONE factor -- but should not be a reason to support her

The fact that she is a woman should be seen as a plus -- but it should not outweigh all of the otehr factors to consider.

[Tom Rinaldo]

17. OK, we agree. A plus but just one factor among many important ones. n/t

[durrrty libby]

6. Hillary is the right person..the right woman...and the right time

The time is now:woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :hi:

[emilyg]

8. Yep.

[Perry Logan]

9. I've been collecting information on Hillary's record. See for yourself if it supports the OP.

Judge for yourself about Hillary:

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Humane Society of the United States 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Trust for Historic Preservation 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Education Association 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Wilderness Coalition 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Children's Defense Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Association of University Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Organization for Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 91 percent in 2006.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 100 percent in 2005

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence 100 percent from 1988-2003 (Senate) or 1991-2003 (House).

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Public Health Association 80 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers 84 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Worker 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees 88 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of Government Employees 83 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Committee for an Effective Congress 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 100 percent in 2005.

According to the National Journal - Composite Liberal Score's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on economic, defense and foreign policy issues than 80 percent of the Senators.

According to the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on social policy issues than 83 percent of the Senators.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Alliance for Retired Americans 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 92 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Bread for the World 100 percent in 2003-2004.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Partnership for the Homeless 100 percent in 2003-2004.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=WNY99268

She was promoting universal coverage before it was cool. Furthermore she helped to create the SCHIP program. And most importantly she was dead on in the debate the other week where she said political will was the most important thing needed to push health care reform through and we know without a doubt she has that.

She has fougt unrelentingly for a woman's right to choose as well as women's rights both domestically and abroad

Create a Strategic Energy Fund - Hillary has proposed a Strategic Energy Fund that would inject $50 billion into research, development and deployment of renewable energy, energy efficiency, clean coal technology, ethanol and other homegrown biofuels. Hillary's proposal would give oil companies a choice: invest in renewable energy or pay into the fund. Hillary's proposal would also eliminate oil company tax breaks and make sure that oil companies pay their fair share for drilling on public lands. Instead of sending billions of dollars to the Middle East for their oil, Hillary's proposal will create a new clean energy industry in America and create tens of thousands of jobs here.

Champion a Market-Based "Cap and Trade" Approach - Hillary supports a market-based, cap and trade approach to reducing carbon emissions and fight global warming. This approach was used successfully to limit sulfur dioxide and reduce levels of acid rain in the 1990s. By capping the amount of emissions in the environment and allowing corporations to buy and sell permits, this approach offers corporations a flexible, cost-efficient method to do their share to reduce emissions and combat global warming. The program will reduce emissions, drive the development of clean technologies, and create a market for projects that store carbon dioxide.

20% Renewable Electricity Standard by 2020 - Hillary believes we need to shift our reliance on high carbon electricity sources to low-carbon electricity sources by investing in renewable energy sources, such as solar and wind. As President, she'll work to require power companies to obtain 20 percent of their energy from renewable sources by 2020.

Make Federal Buildings Carbon Neutral - Hillary believes that the federal government should lead the way in reducing carbon emissions from buildings. Buildings account for 40 percent of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions, and the federal government owns or leases more than 500,000. Hillary would require all federal buildings to steadily increase the use of green design principles, energy efficient technologies, and to generate energy on-site from solar and other renewable sources. By 2030, all new federal buildings and major renovations would be carbon neutral, helping to fight global warming and cutting the $5.6 billion that the federal government spends each year on heating, cooling and lighting.

Protecting Against Exposure to Toxic Chemicals - Hillary wants to make the products we use safer, especially for children. There are tens of thousands of chemicals used in the U.S. and hundreds of new chemicals introduced each year, but little health testing is conducted for many of them. Hillary would require chemical companies to prove that new chemicals are safe before they are put on the market, and would set more stringent exposure standards for kids. She would also create a "priority list" of existing chemicals and require testing to make sure they are safe. To improve our understanding of the links between chemicals and diseases like cancer, Hillary would create an "environmental health tracking network" that ties together information about pollution and chronic diseases.

Hillary's Record

In the White House, Hillary led efforts to make adoption easier, to expand early learning and child care, to increase funding for breast cancer research, and to help veterans suffering from Gulf War syndrome who had too often been ignored in the past. She helped launch a national campaign to prevent teen pregnancy and helped create the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997, which moved children from foster care to adoption more quickly and the number of children who have moved out of foster care into adoption has increased dramatically.

She was instrumental in designing and championing the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which has provided millions of children with health insurance. She battled the big drug companies to force them to test their drugs for children and to make sure all kids get the immunizations they need through the Vaccines for Children Program. Immunization rates dramatically improved after the program launched.

Hillary has been a leading member of the Environment and Public Works Committee since she was elected to the Senate. Today, she chairs the Superfund and Environmental Health Subcommittee and in that capacity has promoted legislation to evaluate and protect against the impact of environmental pollutants on people's health and clean up toxic waste.

Global warming and Clean Air
Spoken out forcefully about the need to tackle global warming in hearings, speeches, rallies and on the Senate floor and co-sponsored "cap and trade" legislation.
Worked to reduce air pollution that causes asthma and other respiratory diseases by writing and helping to pass new laws to clean up exhaust from school buses, and other diesel-powered equipment.
Supported legislation to reduce pollution from power plants, including harmful emissions of sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury, and carbon dioxide - emissions that contribute to poor air quality, smog, acid rain, global warming, and mercury contamination of fish.
Aggressively fought the Bush Administration's ill-advised attempts to weaken clean air laws.

Improving Water Quality and Protecting Drinking Water
Helped to overturn the Bush Administration's attempt to allow more arsenic in drinking water.
Cosponsored legislation to protect lakes, rivers and coastal waters by fighting the spread of destructive invasive species, such as the zebra mussel.
Helped ot pass new clean water laws, including measures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

Protecting Public Lands
Fought oil company efforts to pen the Artic Wildlife Refuge in Alask and Pacific and Atlantic coastal waters to drilling.
Cosponsored the Roadless Area Conservation Act, which prohibits road construction and logging in unspoiled, roadless areas of the National Forest System, and voted for additional funding and manpower to combat forest fires in the west.

Reducing Dangerous Chemicals and Cleaning Up Hazardous Waste
Supported legislation to restore the "polluter pays" principle by reinstating a chemical company fee to fund cleanups of highly contaminated "Superfund" waste sites.
Cosponsored the "kids-Safe Chemical Act," which requires chemical companies to provide health and safety before putting new chemicals in consumer products.
Proposed legislation to create an environmental health tracking network to enable us to better understand the impact of environmental hazards on human health and well-being.

Tackling the Toxic Legacy of 9/11
Pushed for health care benefits for first responders, residents and others whose health has been impacted from breathing the toxic dust and smoke in New York City after 9/11.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/8/20/134810/677

Hillary Clinton co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, a state-level alliance with the Children's Defense Fund, in 1977. In late 1977, President Jimmy Carter (for whom she had done 1976 campaign coordination work in Indiana) appointed her to the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation, and she served in that capacity from 1978 through the end of 1981. For much of that time she served as the chair of that board, the first woman to do so. During her time as chair, funding for the Corporation was expanded from $90 million to $300 million, and she successfully battled against President Ronald Reagan's initial attempts to reduce the funding and change the nature of the organization.

Following the November 1978 election of her husband as Governor of Arkansas, Clinton became First Lady of Arkansas in January 1979, her title for a total of twelve years. Bill appointed her chair of the Rural Health Advisory Committee the same year, where she successfully obtained federal funds to expand medical facilities in Arkansas' poorest areas without affecting doctors' fees.

Hillary Clinton chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee from 1982 to 1992, where she sought to bring about reform in the state's court-sanctioned public education system. One of the most important initiatives of the entire Clinton governorship, she fought a prolonged but ultimately successful battle against the Arkansas Education Association to put mandatory teacher testing as well as state standards for curriculum and classroom size in place. She introduced Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth in 1985, a program that helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.

And a bit of stuff from the White House years:

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage. She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare. She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.

The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome. Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice. In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage.<124> She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare.<125> She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.<43> The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome.<43> Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.<43> In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.<43> As First Lady, Clinton hosted numerous White House Conferences, including ones on Child Care (1997),<126> Early Childhood Development and Learning (1997),<127> and Children and Adolescents (2000),<128> and the first-ever White House Conferences on Teenagers (2000)<129> and Philanthropy (1999).<130>

Hillary Clinton traveled to over eighty countries during this time,<131> breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon.<132> In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself.<133> She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<134><135> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

"...Hillary Clinton traveled to over eighty countries during this time,<131> breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon.<132> In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself.<133> She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<134><135> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries..."

More:
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/israel/index.cfm
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/darfur


The following are polls from progressive groups, rating Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, on how often they vote for progressive issues. For each group, http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011142.php

Clinton Vs. Barack Obama (progressivepunch)
Overall Progressive Score: 92% 90%
Aid to Less Advantaged People at Home and Abroad: 98% 97%
Corporate Subsidies 100% N/A
Education, Humanities and the Arts 88% 100%
Environment 92% 100%
Fair Taxation 97% 100%
Family Planning 88% 80%
Government Checks on Corporate Power 95% 97%
Healthcare 98% 94%
Housing 100% 100%
Human Rights & Civil Liberties 82% 77%
Justice for All: Civil and Criminal 94% 91%
Labor Rights 91% 91%
Making Government Work for Everyone, Not Just the Rich or Powerful 94% 90%
War and Peace 80% 86%
easures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

[undergroundpanther]

11. Where did the term "third way" originnate from?

or also known as Neo-socialism or utilitarianism. Depending on which tilt it has.

Fascism is notoriously difficult to define, but the issue has to be faced by anyone trying to relate pre-1945 fascism to its variegated and fissiparous successors. Eatwell's criterion is "a form of thought which preaches the need for social rebirth in order to forge a holistic-national radical Third Way" (ie, between capitalism and communism).
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19950813/ai_n14000443

Professor Bagaric believes that utilitarian arguments cut through the messy emotions surrounding torture. First of all, the right to life of a multitude of innocent people outweighs the human rights of a single individual. Secondly, he says, if we decide to refrain from torturing a suspect at the cost of many lives, we are logically and morally responsible for the loss of life. “People need to extend their moral horizons and look beyond that and look at the consequences of actually not torturing, and those consequences could be horrific.”(10 ) This adds a new twist which turns conventional bleeding-heart morality on its head. Bagaric is arguing that we can be morally obliged to torture people.
The slippery slopeUtilitarianism has a glib plausibility. But everyone should be alarmed at the way that utilitarian arguments keep expanding in scope, launching us down a slippery slope towards actions which seem ever more repugnant.
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/truth_or_consequences/

The two kinds of anti-individualists come together in their advocacy of a year or two of compulsory national service to knock some patriotism and civic virtue into the American young. They have been answered by an individualist liberal, David Boaz, who replies:

No group of people has the right to force another group to give up a year or two of their lives - and possibly life itself - without their consent. The basic liberal principle of dignity of the individual is violated when individuals are treated as national resources.

http://www.samuelbrittan.co.uk/pub2_p.html

UTILITARIANISM: Utilitarianism is the most famous example of a consequentialist theory, and one of the best known deontological theories is Kant's view. These theories consist of one or more general ethical principles, together with certain assumptions about what a human being (or, more generally, a moral person) is and how human beings ought, properly, to live with one another in society. Utilitarianism is a "goal based" theory. It emphasizes the consequences of our actions and whether or not they reach goals that we consider ethically desirable. In particular, the utilitarian principle says our actions should lead to the greatest "happiness" for the whole society. The scare quotes on ‘happiness’ are meant to emphasize that there is no single measure of what utilitarians are trying to maximize that is universally accepted by all theorists, and this raises serious problems—such as how to measure "utility", etc.

http://www.msu.edu/~marianaj/Handout1.htm

1.What is Falangism? Falangism is a political movement which was founded in Spain by Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera in 1933. At that time Spain was being torn apart by left wing and seperatist movements, Churches were being burned down and Religious Clergy murdered and the so called Republican government was being taken over by the Communists. Falangism called for National Unity and Pride, Social Reform and a return to Christian values. Falangism is not only a political movement but a spiritual one as well.

2.Are you right wing or leftwing? We are neither right nor left, sometimes called third way, what we have done is to take the good from both wings and incorporate them into our philosophy. There are many groups out there that say they are third way but upon closer examination they are either socialists or racists, the same old poison poured into a different bottle.

http://nsafp.com/faq.htm

I find all this shit boils down to two things,
Either we all help each other or the elites the biggest bullies or smoothest talkers help themselves at everyone else's expense and get away with that somehow.

People that cannot stand living in egalitarianism are tainted by either sociopathic,authoritarian,narcissistic personalities or those character traits .The other part of the problem personality type is the people who are passive aggressive,maybe have a masochistic streak open or repressed, might feel a strong need to belong to a group,desperate to have structure, and feel powerless and seek to be led by 'big people'so they don't have to think or be responsible.

Individualist dominator's and followers make up a significant amount of people.

But the rebel individualists that think,deep..and truly understand and build non coercive non dominating,right relationships, knowing we are all connected in the interdependent nature of existence. Those Who also recognize the need for a full life, to fight against people who would destroy and pillage because they can get away with it are NOT good relations, needing to be fearless in life, to express, who see the fragility and uniqueness of us all while recognizing the many and one do interact impact one another and are inherently free. The leaderless people with an INTERNAL emotionally sensitive ethically aware inner locus of control, while being anti authoritarian not taking advantage of the weaker, individuals even though they could,but don't, who are internally aware of the need to be tender and caring to others and the life around themselves even if it does not directly benefit them, while being aware of the life destroying effects of trauma and the people that do it, get away with it, and tolerate it..these sorts of people they are not so common apparently.

[FogerRox]

13. New World Order comes to mind....

[truedelphi]

14. Now, now just why do you hate women who are running for President so much Foger??

Next you will be claiming that she belongs to the Bilderbergs or some such.

And that she sucks up to Murdoch or vice versa.

[undergroundpanther]

18. hillary

is married to bill.Bill had an advisor who belived in the"philosophy" of Leo Strauss. Leo Strauss belives the elite should lie to the commoners to maintain control.(over us that is) Why would a progressive Dem even let anyone who believed such garbage be in on his cabinet? Leo Strauss is the neocons fave asshole"thinker". Why?
Unless somehow they bought INTO this "philosophy"? at some level.
And the way Hillary has fucked up poor people Bill Clintons welfare reform was brutal to poor people.The way poverty is dealt with, is something well off or comfortable people can afford to ignore.And they have.

For instance FYI Hillary wants her corporate freindly healthcare,so you have to buy into the system .And to get employment you have to show proof you are insured.Easy for a middle class person..But..

Now suppose you are homeless you have no money, no address.With no address there is nowhere to send the healthcare card to,IF the guy could manage to"buy" into the system,If he can buy health insurance he may have a crack at a job only if services to the poor aren't being cut to the bone like they have been since ragun,Because preparing for a job requires a new wardrobe a place to shower, and transportation,ect.ect. Reality is, no healthcare card, no job another fucking barrier .Who is screwed by wonderful Hillary The poor just like Bill screwed? It's the poor.
FYI I am one of the vocal feminists on here I am a radical feminist hunny.Sometimes voting just because of a candidates gender is stupid.With Hillary it IS stupid. Do some reasearch.
W
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/993329.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/24/AR2007032401152_pf.html
Why won't the DLC third way Dems stop this stupid war?
http://ahmedismailibrahim.wordpress.com/2007/06/13/neoconservatism-origins-the-role-in-us-foreign-policy-and-the-middle-east/
http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/site_packages/2003/leo_strauss/3015why_dems_failed_ahc.html

Larouche is an ass but sometimes he DOES have some valid info.
Takes one to know one sort of thing with him.

[truedelphi]

19. I'm sorry - I was being sarcastic.

I mean in my post (Not the headline but the post's text) I refer to how she and Murdoch suck each other off.

As Foger and I tease one another, I didn't realize I''d need the <sarcasm> disclaimer.

And since most people who are pro-Hillary have me on ignore by now, I didn't think my remark would be noted by any one other than him.