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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:04 AM
Original message
Nukes' Seventh Decade
Jonathan Schell's latest book "The Seventh Decade" places our current situation in the context of the past 62 years of the nuclear age, or the past 68 years as Schell might prefer to date it. It was 68 years ago that scientists concluded a nuclear bomb was possible. Scientists and politicians immediately began trying to develop nukes out of fear that someone else would do so first. And as soon as nukes had been developed in one country, spies began passing the information to other countries out of fear that they would fail to develop their own nukes, thus leaving one nuclear nation unchecked.

We arrived 18 years ago in a situation in which the first nuclear nation is largely unchallenged. This has led to aggressive wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, but not the use of nukes. In fact, nuclear powers have time and again lost brutal wars to smaller states without making use of nuclear bombs. It is highly unlikely that a small state developing a nuclear bomb in a nuke-free world would be able to bend other states to its will. And nukes are no weapons at all against non-state terrorists with box cutters. So why don't the nuclear powers disarm?

New nations are rapidly pursuing membership in the ranks of nuclear states largely because there are nuclear states, and the proliferation of nuclear technology facilitates additional proliferation, fueling a vicious cycle that makes nuclear war ever more likely. Schell's book lays out an overwhelming case that we have two and only two choices before us:

"If a person gets lung cancer, a doctor may prescribe a harsh regimen of chemotherapy to prevent the disease's spread and save the patient's life. The patient may reject the recommendation, but then must expect metastasis and all its consequences. The diagnostician's advice regarding nuclear danger today must be of the same kind. Do you want to stop the spread of nuclear weapons? Then prepare yourself to get rid of your own. But perhaps you want to hold onto your bombs? All right, but then get ready for proliferation. Get ready for new cold wars - or hot. And get ready for nuclear explosions in your cities."

Schell recounts how tragically close Reagan and Gorbachev came to complete nuclear disarmament. The point at which the negotiations fell apart was Reagan's unwillingness to disarm without creating a missile defense system, and Gorbachev's refusal to believe that Reagan would share such a system with the Soviet Union. Had Gorbachev realized that such a system would fail, he might have conceded the meaningless bargaining chip and disarmed the two largest nuclear states.

Now the clear purpose of so-called "missile defense" systems is aggressive war from space. And the goal of non-proliferation rhetoric is to provide excuses for launching aggressive wars with conventional (or perhaps even nuclear) weapons. But the whole idea of using military force to block proliferation is very new. It may also be short-lived, having shown itself to be both fraudulent and a failure on its own terms.

Short-lived also was the nuclear freeze movement of the 1980s. Schell points out that we now live in a time when excuses for nuclear arsenals must be even more strained and fantastical, but pressure to disarm has evaporated. Ridding the world of nukes now seems so 80s. Schell notes that none of what he calls "major" presidential candidates are talking about disarmament. But Schell must still be living in the media universe of the 1980s if he does not realize that talk of disarmament would be enough to immediately disqualify one as a "major" candidate.

Schell imagines a nuclear-free world, but cannot imagine influencing the national conversation by supporting a candidate, like Dennis Kucinich, who agrees with him.

Schell does place some hope, as do I, in the possibility that a movement to end global warming will grow to include a movement to eliminate nuclear weapons. The two movements would seem to be perfect allies, as it would be quite a shame to save the world from one of the two dangers we face and lose it to the other.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. The Ground, Sir, On Which A Movement Against Global Warming
Would seem a perfect ally with a movement for nuclear disarmament, quite escapes me. There would seem to be no linkage at all between the things, save perhaps for some people being congenial to both goals, and that would be balanced out by the number of persons congenial to one but not the other, who might well turn away from a drive joining the two goals. It is the same basic problem of focus one often sees at rallies against the war in Iraq, where every splinter cause and sect appears with its own hobby-horse on the speaker's platform.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Necessity, Sir, may yet make strange bedfellows, if we are to survive. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 10:32 AM
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Rense.com is not a credible source in the least.
It's run by a lunatic conspiracy theorist who puts out all sorts of nonsense about aliens, chemtrails, Israel carrying out 9/11, etcetera.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:15 PM
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Short-lived also was the nuclear freeze movement of the 1980s" - Huh?
There was a period in the 1990s when huge numbers of warheads were decommissioned. That was a "freeze". That put an end to the fast build up of Multiple-Warhead-Reentry-Vehicles (MIRVs) and the Pershing intermediate range missile. After the "freeze", the gross numbers of warheads declined significantly.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. I greatly doubt the US will ever give up nuclear weapons
and I simply don't believe Reagan was serious about complete disarmament.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. Unfortunately, the "Nuclear Option" is only constrained by the
sane.

The world has its lunatics, and whether clinical insane, or driven by some form of religious or philosophical zealotry, those that teeter on the brink of reality leaning over the edge from time to time...someone will not see the incredible immorality of using a device to reach their means.

Apparently, the only reason these devices have not been used since Hiroshima and Nagasaki, is that there are now enough of them to incinerate life on the planet, and wreak havoc in climate and radioactive fallout. Somewhere out there, is a person(s) that would actually see a nuclear strike as something "necessary" to achieve a gaol. Whether that maniac is a Evangelical Christian, or a Muslim fanatic...or anything else, it will make no difference to them that they could destroy a great portion of life on earth.

I just hope and pray every day, that bush doesn't fumble the "football", after all, he's not the most stable of creatures.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. It appears to me this depleted uranium use
in those "human slaughtering projectiles" is nuclear war, as stated above by bagrman. The devastation from that is horrible. It is a by product of allowing nuclear weapons to exist. If we aren't able to clean up our act, and this cancer-causing poison continues to be used, and many millions are ravaged by it, what's to stop the next step and just blow the whole rotten shebang up?

:grr: :nuke: :puke:
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Actually, depleted uranium projectiles are not used to target humans.
They're used for penetrating heavy armor, such as tanks. And only a limited number of such rounds were used in Iraq, all during the invasion, not since.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Well then, how surgical can you get?
Sounds like clean warfare to me. I'm glad nobody gets hurt with these things. Guess I'll have to say I'm all for sanctioning the use of these whenever they are needed. How about we use these in the next invasion? When do we start?

:sarcasm:

:hi: I'm sure you mean well, but I'm for abolishing violence across the globe and dismantling the insanity that causes it.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. By the way
being fairly ignorant about these things I did at least look on Wikipedia to confirm some of what I read at that Rense link. I also read at Wikipedia a mentioned study showing essentially that depleted uranium poses little harm. That study was done by the controversial RAND Corp:

A 1999 study conducted by the Rand Corporation stated: “No evidence is documented in the literature of cancer or any other negative health effect related to the radiation received from exposure to depleted or natural uranium, whether inhaled or ingested, even at very high doses”,<9> and another RAND report considered the debate to be more political than scientific. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

Because of my distrust of the source of that report, at this point I will voice my opposition to the use of this substance.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Now I've read from the W.H.O. that according to their studies
depleted uranium is not as dangerous as some would say. I'm not convinced yet, but do recognize that hype might be created around this issue. I will look into it some more before jumping back on the bandwagon.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. It is and it isn't.
The supposed radiation hazard of depleted uranium is very low. It only produces non-penetrating, short range alpha particles. The only way you can get a noticible dose of radiation from it is to get it in your bloodstream or your lungs--in which case, you've got bigger problems than alpha particles.

Depleted uranium is a heavy metal, like lead, antimony, cadmium, etcetera. This gives it very poisonous and semi-carcinogenic/mutagenic properties apart from any radiation hazard. If you got enough in your body to give you a radiation dose, you'd probably be dead from heavy metal poisoning.

Depleted uranium is certainly a dangerous compound, but not a magnitude more dangerous than the stew of hazardous compounds that are introduced in heavy combat zone from destroyed vehicles, smokescreens, destroyed buildings and factories, etcetera.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. So somewhere between it is bad and it won't hurt you much.
Edited on Sat Nov-24-07 05:11 PM by balantz
I say we play it safe and do everything we can to stop the madness, depleted uranium and the rest of the barbaric activities around the Earth.

Thanks for the information. I see something horrible and get caught up in the fervor without checking facts, or not trusting the ones that are out there. Imagine that, no trust left.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. It is very bad, but not THAT much worse than, say, lead.
It's unhealthy in the extreme, but mostly only if you get it inside your body.

And I'm all for not using it, I just caution people against some of the crazy hype that gets thrown around, and wild statements like calling depleted uranium-bearing rounds "nuclear weapons," talking about DU bombs and missiles (depleted uranium isn't used in either bombs or missiles) radioactive clouds, radiation poisoning, and the whole nine yards.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Right. If RAND Corp. says all those Gulf War vets are just suffering...
...from mental illness, and nothing concrete tied to all the crap that entered their bodies, then it must be so.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. The Genie is out of the bottle, so to speak
and it WILL NOT be restuffed.

Think things are bad now? Wait till we figure out how to manufacture antiprotons on a large scale.

Nukes wont go away until their value becomes negliable...which is unlikely to happen any time soon.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. I'm a little confused as to why the posts above were removed.
Can someone explain please?
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Some sites are banned as sources on DU.
Wayne Madsen, Prison Planet, and other lunatic-fringe conspiracy theory sites. Rense is probably one of them.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-24-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I see
Thank you
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. But you don't have to assume that because something is banned here...
...it is *necessarily" a "lunatic fringe" site. Some sites compete with this one, and the mods, understadably, don't want to advertise competing sites, or those they genuinely feel are putting out erroneous information.

Just check them out for yourself, and if the information rings true....
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Thanks
Good advice :)
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