To anti-ABBers

[kiahzero]

Would Kerry or Edwards:

1) Appoint Bill Pryor in a recess appointment?
2) Promote "faith-based initiatives" that are really giveaways to the likes of Pat Robertson?
3) Constantly whine about the "sanctity of marriage" and how it needs to be protected from gays?
4) Push for more and more restrictions on abortion rights?
5) Continue to support the dysfunctional "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy?
6) Give no-bid contracts to Halliburton et al?
7) Out CIA agents working on WMD nonproliferation?
8) Give out tax cut after tax cut to the rich?
9) Talk about giving tax cuts to the poor, and then stiff them?
10) Talk about giving money to AIDS research, and then ignore it?
11) Talk about reducing oil dependance, but cancel research in hybrids which reduce it now, to work on fuel cells which may reduce it later?
12) Denounce Wicca and other Earth-based Religions as "not real religions" and support those who wish to take away the First Amendment rights of our armed forces?
13) Send our armed forces to war because someone tried to kill his father?
14) Spy on the UN to try and influence it's decision?
15) Appoint an Attorney General so noxious that he lost an election to a dead man?
16) Abandon our fight against the terrorist who actually seek to attack us, to indulge in an elective war?
17) Support illegal redistricting plans to disenfranchise voters?
18) Attack our national parks with misleading bills such as the "Healthy Forest" bill?
19) Create agencies to monitor the activities of all Americans, headed by convicted felons?
20) Appoint officials who come up with moronic ideas such as a "Terrorism Futures Market?"

To fellow ABBers - I know my list is far from exclusive... I'd like to make a long, thorough list of all the reasons why the Democratic nominee will be vastly superior to Bush. Please help?

[WillyBrandt]

1. Withold money from the UN

[WillyBrandt]

2. Work to regulate universities, as has been proposed with MEast studies

[WillyBrandt]

3. Use taxpayer funds for campaign commercials

[WillyBrandt]

4. Lie about pollution levels at Ground Zero

[John_H]

5. Make his first act as president 4 union busting executive orders

[WillyBrandt]

6. Write tax cuts for SUVs

[WillyBrandt]

7. Let energy companies gouge liberal states for electricity

[WillyBrandt]

8. Laugh about the people he's executed

[WillyBrandt]

9. Push for Total Information Awareness

[kiahzero]

10. That's #19

Poindexter should have a flashing neon sign above his said that says "Warning: Convicted Felon"

[HowdyDUit]

11. 21) Refuse to allow Gay Marriage

Let me know which candidate will support Gay Marriage.

[kiahzero]

14. You may not get a candidate that will out and out support Gay Marriage

It sucks, and it sucks a lot. You will definately get a candidate that is for civil unions... from there, it is a lot easier to go the small step further to 'marriage.'

[fearnobush]

12. Pump Lead and Mercury in to the water and air...

for your kids to breath.

[arwalden]

13. In A Word? --- "NO."

Thank you.

-- Allen

[WillyBrandt]

15. Let more arsenic in the water

[WillyBrandt]

16. Try to develop MINATURE NUCLEAR WEAPONS

Remember this folks?

[kiahzero]

17. Nope

Your memory is vastly superior to mine. I had forgotten all about it.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

18. yes to number 2

Invest in Faith-based Solutions. John Kerry believes that a strategy for enhancing our common life in our cities should include room for faith-based solutions. While making certain to honor the Constitutional guarantee of separation of church and state, Kerry's faith-based initiatives will make communities and families stronger. Kerry will provide new funding and support for faith-based charities or centers that provide social services for our children, families, seniors, as well as HIV/AIDS education, shelter, and programs for ex-offenders, drug prevention and job training.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/urban/

[kiahzero]

27. Are they giveaways to Pat Robertson?

I'm not against the concept of faith-based charity. I'm against it being used to reward partisan allies. Show me any evidence that Kerry would use his program for the crony support that Bush's program has been used for, and I'll strike #2 from the list.

[WillyBrandt]

19. Try to gut civil service protections for federal employees?

[RafterMan]

20. All the Dem nominee has to do to win me over

Is reject the war.

This is asking too much?

[WillyBrandt]

23. It shouldn't be, but I'm afraid it is

The two major loudly anti-war candidates are out. Kerry realizes he made a mistake but can't say it as such, while Edwards is unrepentant.

It sucks.

[RafterMan]

35. Willy

Love ya, you were my favorite co-Clarkie.

The candidate doesn't have to be loudly anti-war. He doesn't have to share my reasons for being anti-war. He doesn't have to have been anti-war from the start. I will earnestly grasp at any straw I'm thrown.

I can probably work with what Kerry has given me, unless he seriously backslides in the general election. But Edwards' unreconstructed Bushism is just too much. I can't do it.

[WillyBrandt]

37. Well, we've got to do what we have to do

It's going to take, frankly, some cognitive dissonance and all that...but what else can we do? I mean really--what else can be done?

[RafterMan]

44. What else can be done

1) Smash Edwards in the remaining primaries
2) Use Clark to keep Kerry's spine straight in the GE, and use his credentials to blunt the anti-war = Saddam luv critique. He doesn't even have to be the VP. He'll fight for us on any terms.

It's still doable -- it's even probable.

But for me, the Bush-Edwards war position is pure national suicide.

[WillyBrandt]

46. Hey, I think that's the likliest course of action. My advice:

Root for Kerry and Clark (or Clark and Kerry), and cross bridges when we get to them. No use worrying now how you might support Edwards one day, if he doesn't even go on the ticket!

[RafterMan]

58. Edwards has

until the moment I fill out my ballot to redeem himself, should he win.

Until he gives me a square inch to stand on, however, I'm still ABE.

[WillyBrandt]

21. Send a lunatic "diplomat" to argue against intl gun control at the UN

[MI Cherie]

22. Pass on debt and deficits to ...

... your children and your grandchildren and their children?

[WillyBrandt]

24. Purposefully try to bankrupt the gov't so as to starve the welfare state

[WillyBrandt]

25. Look at Putin's soul and say he's a good man

[WillyBrandt]

26. Sit on his hands while Israelis and Palestinians kill each other

[WillyBrandt]

28. Embarass all 300 million of us everytime he approaches a microphone

[kiahzero]

29. I was trying to think of how to include that one

You're really much better at this than I.

[WillyBrandt]

30. Appoint anti-tit jihadists to head the FCC

[kiahzero]

34. Don't forget the DOJ!

Let's not forget Ashcroft spending taxpayer money to cover up a statue of Justice that he gave briefings in front of.

He... covered up... Justice. You can't get any more fucking symbolic than that.

[WillyBrandt]

31. Nap for 13 fucking hours a day!

[MI Cherie]

36. Take month-long vacations ...

... and long weekends — in between campaigning!

[WillyBrandt]

32. Avoid confronting questions and the press like a grown-up

[WillyBrandt]

33. Strive to make Big Media turn into Murdoch Media

[WillyBrandt]

38. Prance around on an aircraft carrier in a flight suit!

[WillyBrandt]

39. Patronizingly call dark foreigners "gifted"?

[WillyBrandt]

40. Make you embarassed to say you're American to people abroad

[WillyBrandt]

41. Consult Richard Perle as a top advisor?

[John_H]

42. Where are the one percenters? No response?

[WillyBrandt]

45. It's late. They're probably dreaming.

[MI Cherie]

43. Invite illegal aliens in ...

... for slave wage jobs and offer them amnesty?!

[WillyBrandt]

47. Cut UN population growth funds, and cause more female (cont'd)

misery and death thereby, just because a gaggle of right wing nuts says China uses that money for abortions. Even though State Dept and everyone else says that rumor is false

[WillyBrandt]

48. Recruit federal judges from the Federalist Society

[WillyBrandt]

49. Invade Syria

[WillyBrandt]

50. Withdraw troops from S Korea, so that we can fight a war

With North Korea, even if it means Seoul is obliterated

[WillyBrandt]

51. Militarize space

[MI Cherie]

52. Turn the USA into a ...

... yellow (alert) cowardly, fearful nation?

[WillyBrandt]

53. Totally withdraw from Kyoto, and LIE and say you'll propose a replacement

[MI Cherie]

54. Blame all his mistakes on ....

... someone else!

[WillyBrandt]

55. Foolishly divide Europe into a fictitious old, and a fictitious new

[WillyBrandt]

56. Be a fucking idiot all the damn time!

[WillyBrandt]

57. Effectively ban protest with "First Amendment Zones"

[corporatewhore]

61. You do know dems are doing that too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=376958#376965

[WillyBrandt]

66. Every single day?

[WillyBrandt]

59. Be the dim bulb when he's reading to a classroom of children?

[MI Cherie]

60. Exploit 9/11 for his own benefit ...

... while blocking investigations and hiding evidence.

[corporatewhore]

62. support israel no matter what support a system of slavery and oppression

(freetrade) support things like plan colombia oh wait that is them too

[DeepModem Mom]

63. Thanks, kiahzero --

[emulatorloo]

64. Go to Mars to generate more contracts for Halliburton

[WillyBrandt]

65. Propose a MOON BASE on a whim

[Eloriel]

67. Uh, just so you know - those aren't ABB arguments

They're candidate-specific arguments (anti-Bush).

My anti-ABB position isn't based on pro-Bush or anti-Bush, but on my beliefs that (1) nobody has the right to tell me what I should do with my vote, (2) these arguments and discussions smack of loyalty oaths, which are distinctly anti-democratic, and (3) the apparently quaint and outdated notion that candidates who want my vote ought to actually earn my vote by representing my voice and concerns -- IOW, that they're not automatically entitled to it. If they know they get my vote automatically, there'll never be any reason for them to do that.

[kiahzero]

69. It's not about candidates "earning your vote"

It's about doing what's in your own best interest. If you see the above 50some things Bush has done that neither Kerry nor Edwards would do as negative, it's in your best interest to vote for either of them over Bush in the GE.

[Stuckinthebush]

68. I have found some anti-ABBers are either single issue voters

or massive ideologues who demand purity. There is one that harps on corporate totalitarianism as the biggest evil and that everything else is minor compared to this. There are three major facts that ABBers understand:

1 - The Dems and GOP are the only two parties who can gain the White House.

2 - The GOP will destroy all progressive reforms if they retain power.

3 - The Dems will protect many of these reforms, advance issues dear to progressives, and reduce the damage done to our country by the GOP over the past 3 1/2 years.

[bowens43]

73. There is one Major fact that anti-ABBers understand

that principle is more important the winning.

As to your points:

1. So what? Winning isn't everything. If we win by becoming them then we have not only lost, we have surrendered.

2. Bullshit.


3. A Dem president with a Repug congress will do little . Grid lock is the best we can expect.

[kiahzero]

74. Tell me

What are your principles worth when your children are dead from being sent to war? When you're unemployed and can't afford food? When you're no longer free to practice the religion of your choice? When you're in prison for dissenting against the government?

Principles are selfish when they are more important than people.

Fuck principles, and fuck people who put principles before human lives.

[LWolf]

70. Well, I certainly hope not.

I hope they would not beGeorge W. Bush.

So, would Kerry or Edwards achieve the things that are important to me?

1. Universal, single-payer health care.
2. Abolish high-stakes testing as a measure of school accountability.
3. Work to outlaw GMOs.
4. Support media reform that would include equal time to all candidates.
5. Support public-only-funded campaigns.
6. Oppose media mergers, and enact/strengthen laws/provisions limiting ownership and supporting independent media?
7. Support IRV and proportional representation?
8. Cut the pentagon budget?
9. Dump NAFTA/WTO in favor of fair trade agreements based on worker's rights and environmental principles?
10. Support a living wage?
11. Support free preschool - college public ed for all?

My list is far from exclusive. I could go on, but you probably get the point.

[kiahzero]

72. Probably not all of them

Perfectly honest, it's doubtful that either will do all of those things. Part of the problem is that many people don't support some of those things.

1. Universal, single-payer health care.
Probably not single-payer health care, but will create better programs to help people with health care needs. Once people are more comfortable with government provided health care, we can continue to move towards this as a goal.

2. Abolish high-stakes testing as a measure of school accountability.
Not positive offhand (I'm not a Kerry or Edwards partisan, so I'm not as familiar with their positions as I was with Clark's). Gut feeling says yes - ask some Kerry or Edwards supporters, and they can probably give you a better answer.

3. Work to outlaw GMOs.
Probably not... may work to put strong regulations on it, but it probably won't be a high priority.

4. Support media reform that would include equal time to all candidates.
Again, not sure.

5. Support public-only-funded campaigns.
I doubt it - it's a hard sell to the American people, because it's easy to demagogue.

6. Oppose media mergers, and enact/strengthen laws/provisions limiting ownership and supporting independent media?
Almost certainly oppose things like the recent FCC regulations (IIRC, Kerry and Edwards both worked with Congress on opposing those). Not sure about strengthening provisions limiting ownership, but it's more likely under a Democratic-led FCC than a Republican-led FCC.

7. Support IRV and proportional representation?
No, and that's a good thing. Instant Runoff Voting is a bad, bad voting system, worse than First Past the Post (which is an accomplishment - FPTP is godawful). We, the members of the Democratic Party, are going to have to push the Party to push states to use Condorcet or Acceptance voting (both vastly superior to IRV - Condorcet being the better but more complicated of the two) in the primaries. From there, getting broad-based, electable candidates is a natural result of the primary process, rather than a concious choice (this would result in Kucinich doing at least a little better, btw).
As for PR, again, probably not. That would be a massive shift in the way Congress is elected, as districts would have to be redetermined to be multi-member. As an aside, this would also increase the power of the political parties - mavericks would find it harder and harder to get seats, since they would be put at the bottom of the list.

8. Cut the pentagon budget?
Yes - IIRC, both have mentioned specific programs they would cut. Wouldn't surprise me if Ballistic Missle Defense got significantly less funding, either.

9. Dump NAFTA/WTO in favor of fair trade agreements based on worker's rights and environmental principles?
Again, IIRC, Kerry has discussed appending protections for workers and the environment to NAFTA - essentially, fixing it rather than scrapping it altogether. Not sure about Edwards.

10. Support a living wage?
No clue. I'd hope for an increase in minimum wage, but that depends on the composition of Congress, I'd say, more than some of the other issues.

11. Support free preschool - college public ed for all?
Not comfortable enough with either's education plans to answer this. I know Kerry has a community service -> college program, but that's about it, for off the top of my head.

So, will you get everything that you want? Unfortunately for you, no. However, until we get some election reform, Duverger's Law puts you in the unfortunate place of having to vote strategically. You can get some of what you want, and push for more, or you can shoot for the moon, and almost certainly miss.

Idealism tempered by pragmatism is our best hope for progressive change.

[bowens43]

71. What do Edwards or Kerry have to do with being anti-ABB?

Nothing at all. The ABB movement demeans the electoral process, our party and the ABB proponents. None of your points in any justifies an ABB attitude. It's a cop out. It's admitting that principles have no place in politics. It's saying that winning an election is more important then doing the right thing.

[kiahzero]

75. Shameless kick (n/t)