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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:07 PM
Original message
Sen. Biden and his vote on the Bankruptcy Bill
I know nothing will put this issue to rest, if for no other reason people are increasingly looking to Joe Biden as a viable alternative to the bickering 3 of the "top tier," and this makes their waning supporters nervous, so naturally the attacks will continue, but some perspective on the issue of the bankruptcy bill is in order. Some of this I borrowed from something I posted earlier.

Though not everything in the bankruptcy bill can be applauded--what Republican originated bill doesn't have problems?--but I'd like to think I'd have voted in favor of the bill even knowing that it might end up hampering my future presidential aspirations. I probably would have voted the same way Sen. Biden did because 1.)we desperately needed bankruptcy reform; 2.)the bill helped save many small business owners, and god knows they can use some help in this current corporate-dominated economic climate; 3.)Joe Biden doesn't deal with lobbyists which, unlike the "top tier" candidates, is why he doesn't have much campaign cash, and what he does have is all coming from ordinary Americans, so the decision to vote in favor of this bill wasn't so he could stuff his pockets w/corporate cash; 4.)the Republicans were in charge and in order to get anything done you sometimes have to go along with bills that you aren't in total agreement on; 5.) Joe Biden is not one to sit on his hands doing nothing waiting years for the political tide to turn. If you want to criticize him for that, go ahead. Personally, I respect people of action, and often there are things in bills that legislators don't like, but they vote for the bill for the things they do like. That's democracy in action. Improvements can always be made later. When it comes to a president, I like someone who is strong, determined, and knows more than one way how to move the ball forward.

The bankruptcy laws that were in place were rife with loopholes that were being abused to the point that bankruptcy turned into a safety net for the financially irresponsible. This particular bill began in 1997 and wasn't completed until 2005, being worked on by Democrats and Republicans alike. As I already mentioned, there were problems with it. Some were addressed and some weren't. To be fair, Sen. Biden did support several amendments that he thought were necessary. His detractors would have you believe that this wasn't the case. For example, he voted in favor of Durbin's Amdt #112 - to protect disabled vets from means testing in bankruptcy; yea on Durbin's Amdt #110 - to clarify that the means test does not apply to debtors below median income; yea on Harkin's Amdt #66 - to increase the accrual period for the employee wage priority in bankruptcy; nay against Santorum's Amdt #128 - an attempt to link minimum wage increase to "business incentives and assistance"; yea on Kennedy's Amdt #69 - to amend the definition of current monthly income; yea on Schumer's Amdt #42 - to limit exemption for asset protection trusts; yea on Durbin's Amdt #49 - to protect employees and retirees from corporate practices that deprive them of their earnings and retirement savings when a business files for bankruptcy; and several others, including an amendment offered by Republican Sen. Talent to deter corporate fraud and prevent the abuse of State self-settled trust law, a good amendment that Obama voted against, Dodd voted for, and Hillary didn't bother to vote on at all.

It's obvious that this was a very complicated process. Bankruptcy law has been a work in progress for the majority of time our nation has been a work in progress. The law needed to be revised since, I believe, the early '70s when the last bankruptcy bill was passed. On the 2005 bill, Biden made the effort to understand all the intricacies and voted accordingly. Almost all of the other senators voted up and down Party lines. Sen. Clinton didn't vote on several of the amendments, everything else she voted along Party lines, as did Obama. Now in addition to the amendments voted on mentioned above, there were amendments Sen. Biden voted for that were introduced by Republicans and voted against that were introduced by Democrats. Being a pragmatist Biden tends not to vote in favor of measures that are better dealt with by other means, and he's been consistent in this approach throughout his career. That's just the way he is; he's a complicated man who likes to deal with things in a straightforward manner. I, for one, am genuinely impressed with the fact that 1.)he refused to just play obstructionist by simply being against everything, even though there was political risk involved, because bankruptcy reform was needed, and 2.)he had the intelligence and energy to understand the nuances of everything that was being presented and voted based on that understanding, rather than the much, much easier route of voting down Party lines, like Clinton and Obama, and most Republicans did. Kudos for Sen. Biden for that. Our country would be so much better off if all of our legislators were like that. But his critics on this blog would prefer to have our government just keep playing partisan pingpong like we've been doing since, at least, Ronald Reagan.

One last point: it's important to keep in mind that every time someone files for bankruptcy a lot of hard working people end up paying for it. If you think it simply comes out of the billions of dollars made by large corporations, don't kid yourself. Corporations balance their expenses, including bankruptcies, with the money they're taking in. In other words, the consumer pays. I don't know about you, but I can't afford to pay much more for the things I need. Small business owners really get hurt. It's much harder for them to adjust their prices to make up for the bankruptcy losses because their larger competitors can price their product in ways that will drive the small business owner out of business. It's hard enough for the small business owner as it is. We're talking about everything from local vendors, small privately-owned local banks and savings and loans, roofing companies, privately owned water and gas distributors, local grocery stores, local car dealers, I could go on endlessly. These struggling small businesses create a lot of jobs, particularly in smaller towns and cities.

I've read posts where people were making the case for Sen. Biden that his vote on the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 was to protect jobs in his state of Delaware with the banks and credit card companies. I personally don't think this was the case because I don't think employment with the banks and credit card companies in Delaware would be affected whether the bill was passed or not. And they certainly aren't backing his run for president, perhaps it's because they know him and know they can't expect any special favors should he become president. They are more likely to back the Republicans.

For the record, I personally think Joe Biden would make one damn good president. He's tough, compassionate, and--this is important--he looks at the whole, big picture, and that's imperative to our nation's success during these complicated, challenging times. I know everyone won't agree with his vote in favor of the 2005 Bankruptcy Bill, and that's understandable, but it's important 1.)to know why he voted as he did; 2.) to recognize the effort he put into understanding the bill and its multitude of amendments; 3.)to put his vote into proper perspective. To discount this guy because of this bill is, in my opinion, a poor way of prioritizing what we weigh in making a judgment on who is best qualified to take over the presidency in 2008.
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Frustratedlady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you, thank you! I appreciate the time you took to write your thoughts.
I wasn't sure what happened, but was disturbed that people were flogging Joe so much for one bill, so I appreciate your explanation. I would truly like for Joe to make public his reasons for voting the way he did so it could lay this matter to rest. This race is too important to allow one bill to stand in the way of progress.

I also agree with your statement about the way Biden votes for what he believes is the right thing for the country and not always along party lines. That is one reason this country is where it's at. Look at the progress we could make if all of Congress voted for what was right, rather than with their party. After 911, I thought they would come together and do just that, but they reverted back to the same "ping pong game" as you mentioned. (Isn't it amazing that we are discussing grownups, here?)

Biden may put his foot in his mouth, from time to time, but I'd rather have him speak his mind than be "politically correct" as so many others are. In fact, the top three are practically gagged, they are so afraid they'll say something that will be wrong and they'll lose ground. Biden can say more in 5 minutes than the others can in 60, because he is speaking from his experience and his heart. Ask, and he'll explain why he said what he said, I'm sure.

As for the bankruptcy bill, I have seen abuses from people who lost their tails on the gambling boats, turned around and were right back pulling the levers. I've seen them get in trouble with back taxes, but they still lived in their high priced house when they were done. I don't know how they do it, but they do. Making bankruptcy too easy is wrong for the public and for the filer. If the bankruptcy is due to extenuating circumstances, the courts should be able to work out a program that will be acceptable to all parties. Just wiping the slate clean ain't gonna do it.

I'm still with Biden.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. And thank you for your thoughtful, well-stated points.
You obviously have a good grasp on that old scoundrel reality. I agree with you. Biden is one rare individual whose intelligence, strength, honesty, and talents are sorely needed in the leadership of this country. This bankruptcy bill is just a red herring that is being thrown up because Biden is the one candidate who could upset the apple cart for ideologues on both sides of the political divide, and they are very much aware of it. Notice that none of Biden's detractors using this issue have advocated a candidate who finds additional bankruptcy reform important enough to make a campaign issue. If promoting bankruptcy reform is not important enough to run on for POTUS, than support of the current bankruptcy laws is not important enough to disqualify a candidate.
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. This needs to be saved for when the time comes. Wonderful post, many thanks..
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Thanks, monmouth. Just thought I'd better back up my opinion with some facts.
I'm just glad you took the time to read it. Thanks again.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. I am so glad you brought up the part about all of us paying for everyone's bankruptcies.
The credit card companies make it up in higher fees.

People just can't look at the bigger picture.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. That's one of the gifts Joe Biden has to bring to the table...
a rather amazing ability to see the bigger picture, the whole picture. That's going to be so important in the next presidency.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Great post..
Thumbs up. But it looks like we will all still be paying for BK's, since they are on the rise this year...despite the new bill....
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yeah, I know. There is a lot of bad economic news on the rise.
George Bush's inflatable economy was bound to start leaking air sooner or later.
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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. Trickle down economics
Aren't they GRRRRRREEEEEEAT!!!!

""it's important to keep in mind that every time someone files for bankruptcy a lot of hard working people end up paying for it. If you think it simply comes out of the billions of dollars made by large corporations, don't kid yourself.""

I guess if you can't beat em, you may as well join em. It's much easier rather than attack the predatory lending practices this bill enables.

I'm not supporting a top three candidate as the medie prescribes. I also dont prescibe to the idea that this capitalistic war monger is an adequate replacement. Biden throughout the years has been wrong on a whole host of issues that I don't even knw where to begin.

Here's a start.

1) He's voted to for partial birth abortion bans and measures that limit womens right to choose three times. Not only do these measures limit her right to choose but throw consent provision for women who are under age 18.

2) He voted for the Patriot Act and continues to defend the vote as if it wasn't a pretext for racial profiling. I wonder Joe, just who did you think that bill was going to target? Upper crust white congressmen from the state of Delaware.

3) Ole Joe voted to give president Bush war powers depsite many warnings from his own consitituents (This was when the anti war crowd was considered UNPOPULAR) that Bush was lying.

4) Oh the Bankruptcy Bill which use faulty state median incomes as a barometer for poverty. Not only that, leaves expemtions if it is determined they are below that line but can afford $100 a month. Great job Joe. Yet, he justified his vote (Despite either not voting or voting down ammendments to the bill that would have spared our most vulnerable citizens) disengenously claiming that it helps divorced single mothers. I wonder would Joe says to that poor single mother who make 75 cents to the dollar to her male counterparts when she loses her job becuase she or her child gets sick.

Ole Joe is a snakeoil sales men.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Well you just insulted every democrat that is running - so who are you going to vote for?
Kucinich? The candidate that voted against children's healthcare?
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Pirhana
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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. That SCHIP bill he voted against
Excluded the children of immigrants.

Then again, Biden and his supporters don't seem to differ much from the incompassionate Bush crowd when it comes to stomping on the vulnerable. Good ole Joe has turned it into an art form.

The SCHIP bill that Kucinich voted against wasn't because he was not in favor of covering children. OTOH, Bidens bankruptcy bill position probably doesn't state that he hates working people. More to the point that he loves the credit card companies in his home state.

Bill Clinton, a democratic president that I'm not crazy about, had the good sense to veto the bill Biden voted for, twice. Even funnier was that Hillary was notably absent.

I'm casting my primary vote for Kucinich. If Biden, Edwards, Hillary or Obama win the the nomination I'm not voting. THe only other one I would maybe consider is Richardson at this point.

Biden is a wafflehead and endorsing him is like endorsing a lighter shade of grey Republican.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. thanks for letting us know where you stand. It helps immensely.
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 08:30 PM by cryingshame
And funny how you can rationalize Dennis's voting against something because it wasn't perfect.

Did you support him when he was against abortion entirely?
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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. So now you're eaquating to abortion
Kucinich's record on that subject is much better than that of Biden. Perhaps someone should educate him on just what a Partial Birth Abortion is for.

I'm curious, you're only rationale for Kucinich's vetoing that bill is because "it's not perfect". Are you aware of the fact that Biden doesn't support Healthcare for immigrants AT ALL. As a matter of fact, he thinks it belongs as part of an Immigration Bill.

Go figure, good ole working class joe thinks a Dr office or an Emergency Room should be treated like and Immigration service; Your papers please!!!!

That bill wasn't just imperfect, it was a freakin recipe for disaster.

Oh and please explain how Bidens stance healthcare differs than that of Hillary's, Edward's, and Obama's. His plan entails filtering money from the government to the stooges that are at the heart of the problem.

INSURANCE COMPANIES!!!!

The problem isn't just that they are unaffordable. THEY CAN STILL DENY YOU CARE!!!! Good luck if your bill falls under that $50,000 threshhold.

Oh, but the problem isn't that the solution he proposes is fundamentally flawed and stupid. It's just imperfect.
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. "Hillary was notably absent"
FYI - She was with her husband who had just had a heart attack.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
36. He didn't have a heart attack, did he?
I thought they did the surgery before he had a heart attack, but I could be wrong.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. You're so over the top that you're no longer credible
and appear only as a clownish figure. So Sen. Biden has turned "stomping on the vulnerable" into an art form. Time to tune you out. "It's just a ragged clown behind, I wouldn't pay it any mind, it's just a shadow that your seein' that he's chasin'.
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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. You mean they all voted for the bakruptcy bill?
Even Obama had the good sense to avoid that turkey.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I don't get it....
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 09:08 PM by 1corona4u
why do you continually harass people on Biden threads? You need to find someone else to harass. It's one thing to have an opinion, but it seems as if you just lay in wait for someone to post a good Biden thread, then you trash it. I have asked the mods to remove your post. Being new here, I don't know if they will, but it's time for you to move on.
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. This forum would be far more constructive if people
focused on their choices, instead of cutting down other candidates. I don't go to other threads with the intention of bashing another candidate.

Lets save the vitriol for the republicans.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Obama...
avoids all controversial bills. Just so he doesn't have to defend himself later on. He failed to show up for the SCHIP bill, failed to show up for the Kyle Lieberman bill, and in fact, has missed 80% of the votes in congress. If you look at the way he votes, you'll see the pattern.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. That's interesting, and not good.
I have noticed it a few times, in particular the Kyle/Lieberman bill. That was upsetting because it was important to make a statement of objection in the Senate. It really bothered me when he criticized Hillary for voting for it when he safely avoided it altogether. It was one thing to avoid it, but to criticize another candidate when she at least showed up and voted is wrong. Biden and Dodd have the right to criticize her on her vote, and so do the others though they didn't have to walk in her shoes on this one, but Obama loses his moral authority to do so by not having showed up.

However, my impression of Obama remains positive. The only reason I'm not supporting him in this primary is because he doesn't have enough experience to be president. Joe Biden does. But if what you say is true, and I take you at your word, that is something he'll have to change. It takes courage and leadership to be president.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. That's exactly
who brain is for....imagine that.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Oh yeah, you're the one who says Kucinich "has it in the bag."
Now it all makes sense. You want a candidate who is sure to lose the general election. I greatly respect Kucinich, but even if he could win the nomination, which he doesn't have in the bag as you say, he'd most certainly lose the general election.

The one serious complaint I have about him is that many of the positions he takes are easy to do so when you know you won't win. So much of his platform would be impossible to implement because he wouldn't be able to get anything through Congress, and in many cases, if he could we would live to regret it, like immediately yanking all of our troops out of Iraq.

That's the easy position to take. The problem is, it would turn the military against him and the Democratic Party, which really isn't good, and it would leave all those people in Iraq that we've set up f*cked. Unfortunately, because of Bush we have a responsibility to the people of Iraq not to screw them, but at the same time we have a responsibility to the American people. Yes, we're between a rock and a hard place, so we have to have a plan to get our troops home and leave Iraq in some reasonable semblance of order. It will be an imperfect balancing act, so we give it our best shot and pray to God that all hell doesn't break loose. Kucinich's plan is not a plan. We as Democrats have an opportunity to gain the respect of our military, their families, and their supporters (I'd like to think we're all their supporters). We have to be very careful about how this is handled. But Kucinich deserves all of our praise for refusing to vote for the war in the first place, but I have a hunch that he'd vote against any war and that's not always good. What we did in Serbia was a good thing, not bad, but it was still war.

As for Biden's positions on the issues you raise, he voted for a ban on partial-birth abortions. This happens to be a majority opinion in our country, and I happen to agree with it on the same grounds that I believe abortion is ethical and needs to be a protected right for women, on religious grounds. I don't think the spirit enters the body until there is a reason for it to do so, which would be shortly before birth. Why do I believe that? Because as a rule of thumb the things that make sense in this world are of God and the things that don't are of man. That's what I believe, but I don't pretend to know just when the spirit enters the body. It probably varies, but the 3rd trimester is too close to the birth of the child. The bottom line is that even though your position is a respectable position, most people disagree with you. Joe Biden happens to be one of them. (me, me, me)

The Patriotic Act was an important, though flawed, piece of legislation. There are a lot of good things in the bill, but a lot of bad things. I probably would have done the same thing as most Democrats, voted for it to immediately implement certain provisions in the bill, like allocating money for state security, and then go back and fix it, which was done to some extent, but more work needs doing. I don't have a problem with the votes on this act, I have a big problem with the construction of it, and we need to be diligent in making sure it gets properly fixed. If Joe Biden becomes president, it will be, if I may, a slam dunk.

The "many warnings" from his constituents you're referring to are incidental, because there were even more "warnings" encouraging him to support the war act, however, you bring up the one issue I won't pretend to defend Sen. Biden on. You'll have to get that answer from him. I think the extent that Bush was willing to lie and deceive and ignore the Constitution took everyone by surprise, including most legislators, including Biden. Having said that, I wasn't fooled and I expect my country's leaders to be smarter than me. One piece of this that I wish people were reminded of, and I hope Biden will bring it up during the general election, is that Republicans were publicly accusing Democrats of being "unpatriotic" and "anti-American" if they even questioned Bush's war act, and the same for the Patriot Act. This is no excuse for caving in, but many would have lost their seats had they come out against it, but we need Congressmen who are willing to do that. Yes, Kucinich did, but he was safe and he knew it, but he still deserves our praise.

Biden was one of the first to come out and declare that he had made a mistake, and he's fought Bush ever sense. It's a tragedy, a serious national tragedy, and though I can respect anyone's decision not to vote for any candidate who supported the legislation, that leaves us with Kucinich and Obama. Kucinich can't win and I'm unconvinced that Obama wouldn't have voted for the measure had he been in the Senate at the time. He is quoted as admitting that he doesn't know how he would have voted and I take him at his word, and deeply respect his honest. In 2016 I'll be supporting him like I'm currently supporting Biden, provided he makes us proud of his vice-presidency, which I know he will.

If you had said that you couldn't vote for Biden because of his vote that led to the Iraq war, I'd certainly understand, though I probably would have pointed out the disadvantages in supporting Kucinich or Obama, but I started out this primary process thinking the same thing. However, when you start attacking Biden in a way that paints him as a political scoundrel, I take issue with that because I find the man to be one of the few politicians with high ethical standards, and that's hard to find these days, and why I support him.

The bankruptcy bill I've already addressed, but I'm being called to dinner now.
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. Your #2?
racial profiling is adherent to repube presidency's!! regan, bush1, nixon, Ike.!!!(I will not say administration as they never administrated effectively.)
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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
23. He looks at the big picture and doesn't cave to lobbyist?
Are you freaking kidding me?

You have to be joking.

Biden is a weak lilly livered capitulating fool that will get his ass handed to him in a national election. This guy votes for legislation (WTO, Partial Birth Abortion Bans, Iraq War, Patriot Act) and constantly goes, "Duh, I didn't know that would happen".

He's a fake leftist and a waffeling candidate. You can't lie to people like this in an election. Crap!!! Anyone that's ever worked in a psych ward will even tell ya the even the craziest mofo is going to see right through that. Last election you had Bush run a Platform of, "No one agrees with me but you know where I stand. That other guy is a flip flopper and a liar. You may hate me but at least my stances are known."

Before that election Bush's numbers were at an all time low and same for his support on the Iraq War. Because Kerry was waffely and like Joe Biden, constantly said he's work with the other side, he was seen as weak and got his ass kicked for it.

Another problem is that you're stances on Bankruptcy, no matter how false and misguided they are, remain in line with the Republicans. This is a working mans party? Not if Joe Biden comes with in ten feet of that nomination.

No matter how much you justify that vote and try to rationalize it the fact just contradict everything you've posted. I, like others in the party were extremely fucking pissed off at that prick that day that bill passed. One of the darkest days we ever had over the last 7 years. Joe Biden freakin owns that day.

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momto3 Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
24. Great post.
Thanks for taking the time to write this out. It seems that the Bankruptcy Bill is the number 1 complaint against Biden. You have offered a clear and rational explanation for his vote.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Thank you very much, PhDmom.
Though I'm admittedly biased in favor of Sen. Biden in this election, the opinion I posted in the op is based on the facts. There's a lot about the bill that I don't like, but I can certainly understand why Sen. Biden voted for it, because the bankruptcy laws were pretty much useless. They still need work and that can be attended to.

If I didn't truly feel that Sen. Biden was a really decent man, he wouldn't be getting my support. If I had a son that turned out like him, I'd be proud beyond words. I like the fact that he's not afraid to take controversial positions. He doesn't pander and he speaks his mind, PUBLICLY! Not only would he make a good president, but the man's got character, something that sadly seems to be vanishing on the American landscape. He'd be a fun president.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
27. So, your argument is that the bankruptcy bill was a *good* bill? (nt)
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Was my op not long enough for you? Try rereading it.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. Looks clear to me that the poster would have voted for the bill. "I probably would have voted the
same way Sen. Biden did...".
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Yes, I probably would have. Would I call it a "good" bill?
No, but I would say the bankruptcy laws are better than they were before the bill, but they still need work. As I stated, there's more than one way to move the ball forward. Interesting that the other candidates don't seem to care too much about this one way or the other. Certainly haven't heard anything in any of their campaign rhetoric. You'd think that if you feel it's enough to criticize Sen. Biden you would also criticize the others for doing nothing about it. Hey, but that's just me.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
29. Sorry but as long as we have corporate bankruptcy we should have personal bankruptcy as well
I can't get over the hypocrisy that the same companies pushing for personal bankruptcy reform have no problem taking full advantage of corporate bankruptcy.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
30. Several comments
One Senator Clinton was absent for good reason (her husband had bypass surgery).

Two I do understand that some bankrupcy abuse went on but next to none of the most flagrant abuse was stopped by this bill. Florida was permitted to keep it's homestead exemption which was abused by the rich and corporations are still permitted to use the bankrupcy code to break contracts.

Three, Many people have been seriously hurt by this bill. Medical debts are one of the leading causes of bankrupcy with divorce being another. Neither one is necessarily abusive of the bankrupcy code but they and guard members who have had incomes sliced all have been forced to use much more restrictive bankrupcy codes.

This bill was a bad bill. I will say this for Biden's vote, it was with his constituency which is dependent upon credit card companies.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
32. Rule of thumb: Any and all bills submitted by republicans are to enrich the rich and screw the rest
of us. At least for the last seven years. Democrats should never support a republican bill until the hijacked republican party is restored to the true conservatives.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 04:52 AM
Response to Original message
34. let's not complicate the issue . . . Joe Biden represents Delaware . . . 'nuff said . . . n/t
.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
35. MBNA:
You may want to go to the link and read the entire article.


<snip>MBNA has been the No. 1 donor to Senator Biden's campaigns since 1993 and has made substantial contributions to Senator Snowe and Representative Michael N. Castle, Republican of Delaware. Combined, those three politicians have received more than $700,000 from MBNA and its employees since 1993, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a research group in Washington that tracks money in politics.

Mr. Freeh took issue with those figures, saying that putting all the individual contributions together was unfair and that only $57,000 of that total came from the company's official political action committee. He also said in an interview that, excluding the personal contributions of Mr. Lerner and Mr. Cawley, about 65 percent of MBNA's money goes to Republicans and about 35 percent to Democrats.

What did MBNA get for all that money? While Mr. Biden's main work has been on the Foreign Relations Committee, he has been a consistent advocate for MBNA. He has actively supported the company's favorite federal legislation, the Bankruptcy Reform Act, which would make it more difficult for consumers to escape their credit card debt.

Senator Biden shepherded the bankruptcy legislation along by taking the unusual tack of inserting it into a foreign relations bill in 2000, said his spokesman, Norm Kurz. But Mr. Kurz added that Mr. Biden said he would have backed the bill whether or not he was from Delaware or had received MBNA donations.


The bill passed Congress that year but President Bill Clinton vetoed it. President Bush has pledged to sign it if it passes again, despite opposition from consumer advocates.

''This bill is clearly a giveaway to the credit card industry, and free-spending MBNA has been at the head of the pack,'' said Travis Plunkett, legislative director of the Consumer Federation of America.

The company also has ties to Senator Biden's son, R. Hunter Biden, a lawyer in Washington. Hunter Biden joined MBNA as a management trainee after graduating from Yale Law School and rose to be an executive vice president. Now a partner in Oldaker, Biden & Belair, a lobbying and law firm, he receives a $100,000 annual retainer from MBNA to advise it on ''the Internet and privacy law,'' Mr. Freeh said. He added that Hunter Biden was not a registered lobbyist and did not lobby on legislation for the company.

Mr. Cawley, of course, was not the only corporate chieftain to spread money around in the nation's capital. But as was his wont, he did so in a way that stood out from most of his peers. Indeed, in 2000, MBNA and its employees ranked first among contributors to Mr. Bush's presidential campaign.<snip>

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D07E4D6113FF934A35750C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print
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