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Sean Willentz: "Hillary actually reminds me more of what John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy were up to"

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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:37 AM
Original message
Sean Willentz: "Hillary actually reminds me more of what John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy were up to"
http://www.blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2007/11/16/making-the-case-for-hillary-clinton-by-sean-wilentz.aspx

First up is leading American historian Sean Wilentz, professor at Princeton University, author of the Pulitzer-Prize-nominated "The Rise of American Democracy: Jefferson to Lincoln" (2005) and a "dyed-in-the-wool Democrat"--as if his 2006 Rolling Stone cover story "The Worst President in History?," about President George W. Bush, didn't give him away. Full disclosure: I studied under Wilentz in college. But I didn't call him out of convenience. As a longtime Clinton supporter (he "came out" for Hillary on Wednesday) who's also a fiercely intellectual scholar of American politics, Wilentz, I thought, would be uniquely qualified to make a dynamic historical case for Hillary's candidacy. He didn't disappoint. I hope you find his argument about the importance of Hillary's "Politics of Politics" as interesting as I do.

<edit>

So you don't find Obama's meta-arguments against "politics as usual" particularly convincing?

You cannot have a president who doesn't like politics. You will not get anything done. Period. I happen to love American politics. I think American politics is wonderful. I can understand why people don't. But one of the problems in America is that politics has been so soured, people try to be above it all. It's like Adlai Stevenson. In some ways, Barack reminds me of Stevenson.

Why?

There's always a Stevenson candidate. Bradley was one of them. Tsongas was one of them. They're the people who are kind of ambivalent about power. "Should I be in this or not... well, yes, because I'm going to represent something new." It's beautiful loserdom. The fact is, you can't govern without politics. That's what democracy is. Democracy isn't some utopian proposition by which the people suddenly rule. We're too complicated a country for that. We have too many interests here. You need someone who can govern, who can build the coalition and move the country forward. You hit on something that's really my pet peeve about the others. Edwards the same way, except he doesn't condemn the politics of the '60s, rather he talks about the special interests...

<edit>

So it's a pragmatic argument? That she can get things done politically?

That's true, but it's beyond that. Pragmatism is an approach to power. It's not a philosophy. It's not just going for half a loaf or knowing when to compromise, although all that is important. Rather, it's an understanding of the provisional nature of all of our deeds--an understanding that the politics of hope, taken too far, can turn into the politics of dogma. Just as the politics of memory can turn into the politics of fear. Hillary actually reminds me more of what John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy were up to--more than anybody I've seen since. More than her husband.

But people always tie Obama to the Kennedys.

God knows why. His philosophy is much more like Eugene McCarthy and Adlai Stevenson. He's that kind of politician, in a post-Baby Boomer sense. If the argument we're having today in the party is like the one we had in '68 between the Kennedyites and the McCarthyites, she's Bobby Kennedy. She's not Eugene McCarthy. She's not the beautiful-loser idealist, or the person who's ambivalent about politics. She loves politics. Just as Bobby Kennedy loved politics. Bobby Kennedy could deal with Cesar Chavez and Mayor Daley. That's what you need in America.

<edit>

But Hillary excites so much antagonism on the right. If she were elected, wouldn't it just be four years or eight years of the same old shouting?

You know who makes that argument more than anybody else? Republicans. This is a favorite Republican argument. They say, "We want to run against Hillary. She's the polarizing candidate and we're going to take advantage of that. She's going to rile up our base, et cetera, et cetera." Whenever Republicans tell us who they want us to nominate, we should nominate her. They're scared of her. Who else is going to build a coalition?

more...
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. FDR and JFK ran - and got elected - as centrists. Most people are in the center. nt
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. did they run as centrists in the early primary phase? or just in the general election?
the usual pattern is to fight for the base in the primary and fight for the middle in the general.

years later, most people only remember the general campaign; the primary battle is usually a footnote.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Election strategy has to be tailored to who the opponents are..
Hillary is running as a little left of center until after the Primary. We always want to pick up as many votes as possible for the General.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
50. Primaries weren't very important in those days
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 10:55 PM by Hippo_Tron
The nominees were decided by the party bosses at the convention. JFK's victory in the West Virginia primary was a big deal but it was to convince the party bosses that a largely Protestant state would vote for a Catholic.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. Back then they might have been..
.. but thanks to the media, there's not much left in the center any more, everyone is one on side or the other.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. "Whenever Republicans tell us who they want us to nominate, we should nominate her."
Stands repeating:

But Hillary excites so much antagonism on the right. If she were elected, wouldn't it just be four years or eight years of the same old shouting?

You know who makes that argument more than anybody else? Republicans.
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Great point.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Are they gonna let us pick the Republic candidate?
That just makes no sense.

-Hoot
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. Pontificating professors aside, Ted Sorenson, longtime JFK speechwriter/advisor, endorsed Obama.
Watch it yourselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hupgC1d-St8

He was on Charlie Rose discussing why Obama is the candidate most like Obama:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReDCmk2c2g8&feature=related

*****

Barack Obama is JFK heir, says Kennedy aide


Barack Obama is JFK heir, says Kennedy aide
By Toby Harnden in New York
Last Updated: 1:36am BST 15/10/2007

John F Kennedy's closest living aide has anointed Barack Obama as the heir to the assassinated president's legacy
and predicted that Hillary Clinton would lose an election to a Republican.

Ted Sorensen, 79, Mr Kennedy’s chief speechwriter, slipped into the present tense as he was transported back to
1960, when another youthful senator espousing hope and change was being written off by the Establishment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/12/wobama112.xml

'Nuff said.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. I;m sure by now Sorenson regrets his petulant endorsement!
as do many who initially supported Obama...And I will go as far as to say, Hillary will receive the endorsement from Ted Kennedy!
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Uh huh -- that must be why he's been on the campaign trail for Obama
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 12:23 PM by ClarkUSA
He's doing a good job, too, from all accounts.

As for Ted Kennedy, he's never ever liked the Clintons, so we'll see how good Bill and Hillary are at
ass-kissing. Maybe they can make him an offer he can't refuse, who knows? But I doubt it.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. They don't have to AssKiss anyone...RFKJR wants to be the next Senator..
of NY, like his Dad... he doesn't even have to run if the GOV appoints him..
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. In Ted's case, of course they do. And they will dangle favors like only they can.
One of those favors is a promise to pull out all the Clinton powerbroker stops in order to get his dear nephew
installed as Senator. Appealing to family ties is Kennedy's only Achilles' Heel.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. As if you know what you are talking about!
blah, blah, blah!
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
37. Like you do?
yada yada yada
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
46. RFKjr doesn't need the help .nt.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Do You Have Any Evidence Ted Kennedy Doesn't Like The Clintons?
Please produce it

My mom walked precincts for JFK in 1960...I shook RFK's hand when I was six years old... I have a letter he wrote me when I was ten... My mom and I worked in Ted Kennedy's 1980 campaign and she caucused for him in a Volusia County, Florida Democratic party straw poll....

I realize that they come from different wings of the party but I saw them together at Martha's Vineyard and they looked to be getting along famously...
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Funny how you never ask for evidence from fellow Hillaryworld mudslingers.
Sorry, what I know is off-the-record from 2004 when he supported Kerry. Maybe he's changed his mind by now after
much ass-kissing and favor offering from the Clinton party machine. Politicians, ya know.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I Don't Endorse Mudslinging Regardless Of The Target
Of course Ted was going to endorse Kerry... Kerry was the junior senator from his own state... Back to Ted and Bill...Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton seem like kindred spirits...Both are raconteurs with wandering eyes though age has tempered the libidos of both of them...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
7. hogwash bullshit pure idiocy
stupidest piece I've read this year. Idiot who doesn't know Obama is the one who got difficult legislation passed with near full support of both parties. Hillary hasn't done shit. Who are these people. They create a fantasy world that doesn't exist, and then write about it -- and get paid fabulously. What a life!!
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Oh, BOO-HOO...The Big Expert speaks...all bow down to sandnsea..
who hasn't been right yet on any advise given as to who to support as a candidate for president or for what they stand for.

Wake-UP, sandnsea.. Obama and Edwards are dead in the water!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. Wake up Democrats - Bush2 will be protected just as Poppy was protected
throughout the 90s.

And those who don't care are enemies of democracy.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. This one's easy to discredit
from wiki:

"Wilentz, a family friend of Bill Clinton, appeared before the House Judiciary Committee on December 8, 1998 to argue against the Clinton impeachment. His testimony — he told the House members that, if they voted for impeachment but were not convinced Clinton's offenses were impeachable, "history will track you down and condemn you for your cravenness" — cheered Democratic partisans but was criticized by the New York Times, which lamented his "gratuitously patronizing presentation" in an editorial."
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FreeStateDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Thanks for the "full disclosure" of a naturally biased opinion.
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 10:50 AM by FreeStateDemocrat
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NOVA_Dem Donating Member (195 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. I guess you just squashed this thread...eom
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. How does a Wikipedia stub that "does not cite any references or sources" discredit
the interview?

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. it's hardly a secret that Wilentz
is a supporter of Clinton's and a family friend. From the article the OP posted:

First up is leading American historian Sean Wilentz, professor at Princeton University, author of the Pulitzer-Prize-nominated "The Rise of American Democracy: Jefferson to Lincoln" (2005) and a "dyed-in-the-wool Democrat"--as if his 2006 Rolling Stone cover story "The Worst President in History?," about President George W. Bush, didn't give him away. Full disclosure: I studied under Wilentz in college. But I didn't call him out of convenience. As a longtime Clinton supporter (he "came out" for Hillary on Wednesday) who's also a fiercely intellectual scholar of American politics, Wilentz, I thought, would be uniquely qualified to make a dynamic historical case for Hillary's candidacy. He didn't disappoint. I hope you find his argument about the importance of Hillary's "Politics of Politics" as interesting as I do.

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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. How does it "discredit" the interview?
nt
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venable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
51. his arguments are exactly why one should never vote for HRC
she plays politics pure and simple, and her politics are of politics, not of progressive, selfless, core Democratic values. she is very like Rove in that way, and this corroborates the episode of Bill approaching Rove and saying what a terrific job he did in 04 and they should get together to discuss politics. a pox on all of them, I say.

dont you see that this is why people dislike her so much.

the venerable professor has unwittingly illuminated the very worst of who the Clintons have become.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
11. I don't think anyone questions whether she could be an effective president
I think most people see her as competent.

I believe the problem arises when you try to figure out how she'll get 50.1% of the vote - something her husband never did, and whether another cycle of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton is something Americans are willing to accept.
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venable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
56. i don't see her as a competent president. not at all.
i am defining competency as the capacity to drive a progressive, core-Democratic agenda. That is not what happened under Bubba, and he was a million times the pol that she is.

She is smart, and she is conniving, but she is also a triangulating and will sell her principles for a song.

Look, the 90's were a time of tremendous misery POLITICALLY. In spite of the booming economy and peace we had massive domestic uncertaintly and a riven country. We also failed to get universal health care, but instead got trade deals that have hurt the country. we did jack squat about the environment, and 'ended welfare as we know it', which was a conservative dream for decades.

the clintons are wielders of personality (Bill's, not hers) and have lost the sense of public service that, I imagine, once fueld their ambitions. What's left is blind ambition.

The professor is a family friend, and he makes very weak, almost vulgar arguments, loving the corrupt pack of lies that stands for political discourse, and failing to recognize the difference in the times, and the difference between the republican party oppostion of 4 decades ago and the sham pack of criminals who now run it, and washington along with the lobbyists, who organize against the public good.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
13. this is interesting, but definitely biased
as mentioned earlier Wilentz is a Clinton friend. I disagree with plenty of his assessments, including the HRC to RFK comparisons. I think he easily dismisses the concept of real change too. I like HRC but when he is speaking about the "Gilded Age" Hillary isn't exactly the person to get us out of that for good. She'd do better than any Republican, but she isn't the real answer.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
27. She Remids Me Of RFK Too
Both had a steely resolve...Both relished a good fight...Both could take a hit and give a hit... Both were fearless...
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Both..
... were Scorpios :)
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I Have Actually Met RFK Albeit Briefly...
DSB
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I personally...
.. think RFK would have been twice the leader JFK ever thought about being, had he not be cut down in his prime.
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
31. I think the Kennedy/Stevenson analogy with Clinton/Obama are spot on.
Great read. Thanks!
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. RFK Voted For Ike In 52 Because He Thought Stevenson Was Soft
RFK also thought Eugene McCarthy was soft...

I suspect if there was a DU in 68 Eugene McCarthy would have been its darling and not Bobby Kennedy... McCarthy's base was college kids and affluent liberal elites... Bobby's base was African Americans and working class whites...
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
34. The esteemed professor misses the main point.
The Democratic candidate has to win more votes than Kerry or Gore in the south and in the mid-west. Hillary can't win enough votes in those regions in the 2008 election.

I was born and raised in the mid-west and went to high school in the south. I know (and share) the sensibilities of the people in those areas. Hillary may win in Democratic primaries in mid-western and southern states, but she won't win the swing voters in the swing states. Swing voters vote for a candidate they like, someone who speaks their language, who makes them feel comfortable and respected. Hillary tries hard, and I have heard that she comes across as a warm person when you meet her face to face, but, in spite of all her efforts, she seems harsh and combative to those of us who don't get to shake her hand. She is nervous. She reacts aggressively. You can see her bristle when criticized. Her manner, her personality endears her to New Yorkers, but it will alienate southerners. Look at the women who have been elected in the south. They have great voices. good manners and are clearly feminine. Hillary is not going to appeal to southerners. You may think it is sexist, but it is still the reality. It is southern culture, may I repeat, culture. Culture is the key to winning elections. Hillary is not going to be able to teach the southern voters a lesson about gender between now and the election.

Edwards and Obama communicate warmth. The only Republican candidates who approach them on this important factor are maybe Ron Paul, Huckabee, possibly Thompson. Hillary will not do well against Huckabee or Thompson. The worst of it is she won't know what hit her.

Can we win the south in any event? Yes. We have a big chance to make some inroads in the south if we run on economic issues against the corruption, and if we promise to change the culture of our party so that we show more respect for southern and mid-western sensibilities. Changing the culture of our party has to be a primary plank in our platform if we want to win in the south. This does not involve compromising our ideals. It requires living up to them.

Economic issues will be the major ones. Free trade, economic opportunity and immigration are linked in most people's minds. Edwards stands for what ordinary people want on all of these issues.

People in the south, mid-west and also in the west feel very alienated from the D.C. culture. The esteemed professor is making his predictions based on past experience. That is a dangerous thing to do. In fact, Jimmy Carter became president on the corruption issue. Reagan became president on the big government issue. In spite of his weird personality, confusing charts, loud mouth and lack of party support, H. Ross Perot acquired quite a following for his anti-D.C. movement. Edwards wins on all the counts on which H. Ross Perot lost. Edwards is rational, not extreme. Edwards is good looking and communicates warmth and good sense. Edwards is running on issues about corruption because the Bush administration is the poster boy for failed government due to corruption. The failures of the D.C. culture is the most important issue of our time. The corruption that feeds incompetence is on the voters' minds. Criticism of the D.C. culture will be a big winner for Edwards. Edwards is the only candidate we have who can win. Obama might also win. The esteemed professor's theories are wishful thinking, and do not reflect the reality of the election in 2008.

Please remember, we have not elected a Democrat who was a senator and a Yankee since 1960 when Kennedy was elected. What in the world makes people think that Hillary, who is both a senator and a Yankee (in spite of her years in Arkansas) can win? Thinking Hillary will win is sheer delusion. The electoral votes are just not there.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. "They have great voices. good manners and are clearly feminine. "
WTF
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Look, you may not like it. I may not like it. But the reality is
that we live in a very country in which female behavior is expected to fit a stereotype. In particular, people over 40 hang on to certain very visceral feelings about what is feminine and what is not. And southerners are particularly prone to like women who fit the stereotype and to find women who do not fit it repulsive. Again, my post is not about what I think should be, but what I anticipate will be the key to the coming election. Hillary has fought too hard. She has too much of a shell. She is not feminine enough to attract even most of the female voters in the south. That is because she is a Yankee woman. To someone from New York, she seems very feminine. Please think about the leading female politicians in the south -- Landrieu, Elizabeth Dole, etc. They are all very strong women, but their mannerisms and style say, "I'm a woman and I like it that way." Hillary is too much Eastern women's college graduate to win in the south. Sorry. It's too bad, but that is the reality.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Ann Richards Rode A Motorcycle And Wore Leather
But if you want to hold on to your illusion that is your right...
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. She was not elected in South or North Carolina, Tennessee,
Alabama, Mississippi or Louisiana. Edwards has been elected in North Carolina. If he campaigned in Alabama or Louisiana, he could draw a majority of votes.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. How Many Southern States Did He Help Kerry Carry In 04
You do now that Gore-Lieberman actually did better in North Carolina in 00 than Kerry-Edwards in 04...

And you do now that Edwards is trailing Hillary by significant margins in both Carolinas...

As to your assertion that he would carry this state or that state, in the absence of empirical data or historical reference it is rank speculation...
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Edwards has responded to that criticism. Apparently the
Kerry campaign refused to spend money in the south. Remember it took Howard Dean to introduce the 50-state strategy -- an obvious strategy for Democrats. And the 50-state strategy as worked wonders. It lead to the 2006 victories. If we spend money and campaign in the south and get a southern candidate, we will be able to win southern votes in 2008. This is especially true if Romney or Giuliani is the candidate on the Republican side.
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brothertheodore Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. of bubbas and brahmins...
Your response to Wilentz's comment was right on target.

I'm a believer in the "Bubba v. Brahmin" predictive model. Meaning that, all things equal, the candidate who can better convey a more convincing "Bubba" personality than the other candidate will win. (All things being equal, that is).

So let's look at the list...
Truman
Eisenhower
Kennedy (with LBJ)
LBJ
Nixon (appealed to his working class outsider Whittier roots)
Carter
Reagan (who out bubba-ed Carter)
Bush 41
Clinton (The Bubba of All Bubbas)
Bush 43
Bush 43 (2004 election is a very good example)

All of them out-bubba-ed the other candidate (even JFK, somewhat, against Dick N. and with Lyndon)
Bush 41 recast himself as a Texan, a pretty easy thing to do against Dukakis

Both presidents can possess equal smarts. Both can have access to gobs of money. Other aspects can be pretty even-steven. But, the candidate who can win the Bubba battle will win the election.

Which means:
a sun-belt candidate
an ability to be affable and self-effacing (here's where John Kerry got his butt kicked)
someone with gubernatorial (even mayoral) rather than senatorial experience (how many former senators have been elected? Why are bubbas more likely to be governors than senators?).
at least sounds anti-federalist rather than federalist in tone...
maybe more of a bullshitter rather than a liar...(Bush 41 would run into this problem)
Miltary experience is not a prerequisite..obviously..
Certainly, and unfortunately, SAT scores count for little...

An certainly, the candidate will have to come across as authentically bubba.

Gore blew it on 2 counts: his pr image, and his choice of Veep.
Kerry might've been a good president, but was not a good candidate...

Hilary will not unite democrats (frankly, I don't like her that much) and will only unite a fractured conservative vote...

I hope Democrats aren't so stupid to forget what's happened in the last bazillion elections..

but the wierd question: why do I think that Giulani could out-bubba Hilary? his fabricated post 9/11 hero narrative? (in which he could've been a fireman or one of the Big Apple's finest but wasn't) his mayoral experience? perhaps wacky Pat's endorsement?

frankly, i think Rudy would eat Hilary for lunch in a debate..

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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. I Have Lived In Florida Since I Was Eleven
Hunted, ate alligator's tail, fished off a bridge... I ain't never met a Bubba like Ghouliani...Bubba doesn't wear a suit to NECKCAR like Rudi did today...

As for a debate The Hill will rip Rudi a new, errrrrrr, face...
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Thanks. I agree completely except I think maybe you are using "federalist"
when you mean "anti-federalist" and of course vice versa. A federalist from the perspective of our time is one who agrees with states rights. An anti-federalist is one who believes in a strong federal or national government. I know it is odd, but I believe that is how the terms are used. The Federalist Society is a conservative group that favors a pro-states-rights interpretation of the Constitution.
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Terri S Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
39. Ethel Kennedy thinks differently
"I think he feels it. He feels it just like Bobby did," Ethel Kennedy said, comparing her late husband's quest for social justice to Obama's. "He has the passion in his heart. He's not selling you. It's just him." Ethel Kennedy invited Obama to deliver the keynote address at a ceremony commemorating the 80th birthday of Robert F. Kennedy. She said she had carefully followed the career of the Illinois senator, whom she referred to as "our next president."

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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
42. What a poor historian...
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. You're Right...He's A Total Loser (sic)
Wilentz took his B.A. at Columbia University in 1972, before earning another B.A. at Oxford University on a Kellett Fellowship and his Ph.D. at Yale University. His historical scholarship has focused mainly on the early years of the American republic. His major study to date, The Rise of American Democracy: Jefferson to Lincoln, received the Bancroft Prize in 2006 and was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize. His first book, Chants Democratic, won several awards, including the Beveridge Award from the American Historical Association. A contributing editor at The New Republic, Wilentz writes widely on music and the arts as well as history and politics, and has received a Grammy nomination and, from the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers, a Deems Taylor Award for musical commentary. He is the historian-in-residence of bobdylan.com, the official Bob Dylan web site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Wilentz
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. I didn't say loser, I said poor historian.
He strikes me as one of those "grand" historians who whitewashes and denies true American history...

Re: The RIse of American Democracy

Peer criticism:

This argument was made in the broadest terms in 1945 by Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., in The Age of Jackson, and it has now been made once again, with even greater scope, by Sean Wilentz in The Rise of American Democracy. No one, in fact, is more aware of the line that connects The Age of Jackson with The Rise of American Democracy than Wilentz himself, who pays lavish tribute to Schlesinger in his preface. (Schlesinger returned the favor in an essay published in the New York Review of Books, April 27, 2006.) According to Wilentz, it was Schlesinger's great achievement to place "democracy's origins firmly in the context of the founding generation's ideas about the few and the many...seeing democracy's expansion as an outcome of struggles between classes, not sections." This is an elegant, and somewhat deceptive, way of saying that Schlesinger rescued the history of the Democratic Party from the opprobrium with which Charles Beard and J. Allen Smith had covered all the founders, as the evil twins of the robber barons, who constructed the Constitution in order to rob ordinary folk of the economic egalitarianism promised by the Declaration of Independence. No, replied Schlesinger, the Jacksonian Democrats were genuine keepers of the Progressive flame; Andrew Jackson was a sort of antebellum FDR (and FDR a latter-day Jackson) restoring democracy and care for "the little guy" to the republic. This is the gauntlet Wilentz sees himself taking up.

----

The most important survey since Schlesinger's of the Jacksonian era, Charles Sellers's stupendous The Market Revolution: Jacksonian America, 1815-1846, essentially jettisoned both Jackson and politics from Jacksonian democracy and re-envisionsed it as a cultural struggle which only incidentally erupted in political shape. Sellers never had any doubt, writing in 1992, but that "capitalism commodifies and exploits all life.... Relations of capitalist production wrench a commodified humanity to relentless competitive effort and poison the more affective and altruistic relations of social reproduction that outweigh material accumulation for most human beings." The warfare of capitalism against yeoman republicanism, and the market "penetration" (sounding as though it were a rape) into every corner of American life, were the real story of Jacksonian America. Andrew Jackson and his party were, at best, marginal players, ultimately unsuccessful at resisting the ravishment. Even Jackson's Bank War, which Sellers cast as "the acid test of American democracy," could not be a total victory for Jacksonian democracy because it "was distorted from the start by a Constitution designed to frustrate majorities." The Constitution had made "democracy safe for capitalism." American politics was not a vehicle for implementing democracy, but an obstruction to it.

----

And that someone was not likely to have been an avaricious coalition of bankers, merchants, factory-owners, and stock-jobbers, if only because there simply weren't enough of them in antebellum America to win an election; just as, for that matter, there weren't enough alienated urban workers to create the kind of proletarian Democratic Party Wilentz so fondly describes. Wilentz, who first made his mark in 1984 with Chants Democratic: New York City and the Rise of the American Working Class, 1788-1850, continues in The Rise of American Democracy to see New York City as the nation. But Jacksonian America was still an overwhelmingly agricultural republic, and the winning or losing of elections turned a good deal more on the skill with which parties organized voters—especially new voters—and capitalized on the other party's policy mistakes than it did on the clash of class interests. Even at the apogee of Jackson's presidency, only a little more than 7% of Americans lived in towns or cities larger than 2,500 people, and only 7% of American manufacturing took place under chartered corporations. As late as the 1850s, the average industrial concern employed only 14 workers in New England, eight in the mid-Atlantic, and four in the trans-Appalachian West.

But Wilentz is correct in at least one respect: the Democracy was consistent in its commitment to some form of equality. The difficulty is that this notion of equality was an equality of restraint and suspicion, the conviction that no one deserves to have more than I do; and if they do have more, it can only be because of unjustifiable luck or illegitimate scheming. Despite Wilentz's struggle to dissociate the racism of the "bad" Democrats from the shining virtues of his "good" Democrats, an idea of equality based on restraint means narrowing the field of those whom equality can afford to admit to its ranks—which is why Wilentz's workingmen were so strangely indifferent to slavery. In a world of limited resources, lines had to be drawn defining who would be allowed to exploit those resources, and the racial line was a convenient one for white slaveholders and white workingmen alike. The Whigs, on the other hand, were not so much the critics of democracy as they were the partisans of an entirely different concept of democracy, built on the openness of a competitive economic society but also accepting the up-and-down risks of open markets. What Jackson's Democrats thought of as the ideal political economy was a pyramid in which everyone was guaranteed a fixed place, so that the justly rich were secure and the poor were subsidized (and in the South, literally subsidized through slaveholding and appropriations of Indian land).

http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.1110/article_detail.asp


From this review, it would seem that Wilentz does a very poor job of understanding the relationship between agrarian capitalism and republicanism.

The NYTimes Book Review:

Wilentz is well aware of the new political history. Indeed, elsewhere he has expressed his contempt for it, assailing it as filled with "bargain basement Nietzsche and Foucault, admixed with earnest American do-goodism, that still passes for 'theory' in much of the academy." In opposition to the fashionable emphasis on culture, he wants, he says, to highlight the independent existence and importance of politics. However significant social and cultural developments were to the American people in the early Republic, these developments, he claims, were perceived primarily in political terms - "as struggles over contending ideas of democracy." From the late 19th century to our own day we are apt to see economics, society or culture as the ground for politics and political institutions. But, Wilentz says, for the people of the early Republic, politics, government and constitutional order, not economics, not society, not culture,were still the major means by which the world and the men who ran it were interpreted.

He therefore feels justified in making this in-your-face challenge to the new political historians and in writing this old-fashioned narrative. By focusing on men like Jefferson, Jackson and Lincoln, however, he does "not mean to say the presidents and other great men were solely responsible for the vicissitudes of American politics," since ordinary Americans had a profound influence on the exercise of power. "But just as political leaders did not create American democracy out of thin air, so the masses of Americans did not simply force their way into the corridors of power." Leaders were always important. It is a fact of life, he writes, "that some individuals have more influence on history than others," even if they cannot make history as they please.

----

We can get some idea of where Wilentz is coming from by noting the book that seems to have most influenced him - Arthur Schlesinger Jr.'s Pulitzer Prize-winning history, "The Age of Jackson." Before Schlesinger's book appeared in 1945, Wilentz writes, "historians thought of American democracy as the product of an almost mystical frontier or agrarian egalitarianism." But Schlesinger, reflecting the New Deal perspective of the time, "toppled that interpretation by placing democracy's origins firmly in the context of the founding generation's ideas about the few and the many, and by seeing democracy's expansion as an outcome of struggles between classes, not sections." "The Age of Jackson," Wilentz says, located the origin of modern liberal politics in the belief of Jefferson and Jackson that the demands of the future, in Schlesinger's words, "will best be met by a society in which no single group is able to sacrifice democracy and liberty to its own interests." In 1945, the interest group Schlesinger was most worried about was what he labeled "the business community" or "the capitalists."

Although Wilentz is too sophisticated to posit something as crude as "the business community," he nevertheless believes that some sort of class struggle lay behind the politics of the antebellum period. In other words, he writes as a good liberal, but an old-fashioned New Deal one. Like Schlesinger in 1945, he wants in 2005 to speak to the liberalism of the modern Democratic Party. By suggesting that the race, gender and cultural issues that drive much of the modern left are not central to the age of Jackson, Wilentz seems to imply that they should not be central to the future of the present-day Democratic Party.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/13/books/review/13wood.html?ex=1289538000&en=82083ddf254df389&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss


Sean Wilentz is an apologist for the failures of the Old Left and seeks to deny the progress of the New Left by mythologizing the history of the Old Left. To deny that societal, cultural, and sectional concerns were not central in resisting a linear narrative of American democracy is to deny the existence of the United States of America before 1861. He also does not seem to understand Marxist theory at all. Expansionism is a foreign concept to Wilentz. His denunciation of elitism in American politics is elitist itself and that is why Wilentz is ultimately unconvincing, he does not understand the common man because he lives in an ivory tower, Bob Dylan and all. And no I have not and will not read 1,000 pages of drivel...

I prefer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Appleman_Williams

:hi: }(
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NewHampster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
43. awesome and rec
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NewHampster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
45. This interview should be required reading
definitely for Hillary supporters but also others should try and read what a great historian has to say.
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venable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
49. the prof is just wrong, and makes serious, critical errors...
like failing to note the difference between the world that Kennedy/Stevenson/McCarthy/even Tsongas moved in and the world as it is now, one entirely and frontally made up of lies, a truly perverse republican party (as opposed to the outgoing Republican president Eisenhower who warned that his greatest fear is the marriage of industry and military into the military-industrial complex, a term he, a Republican, coined in an eloquent last speech as president).

The time is past for the kind of politicking and obfuscating and misleading, which is exactly what his beloved politics consists of, and which he fails to mention.

It's like saying 'I love advertising'. How could one? Same with politics as it is practiced today, and perfected by the Republicans. It is lying. No more, no less. Sure, it's delightful to study the dynamics and characters, as in a pop novel, but is it something to really admire? Not for me, thank you very much. I recognize that we live a political world, but I will not, therefore, admire those who practice old style chicanery, with so much at stake. These people, and the aging professor, have no vision. It can be different, as RFK said, when he encouraged us to look at things as they could be and say 'why not?" I think he forgets that it was that very vision was what made Bobby Bobby, not his backroom shenanigans. A pretty severe gaff on his part, IMO.

So RFK could talk to Chavez and Daley. So what? So could have many people. It's a bizarre claim.

Sounds to me like the good professor likes things the way they are, likes the game and the established players of the game, and so he frames it in historical terms in order to lend some sort of weight to his basic conservative (yes, absolutely conservative) view.

Thoroughly unimpressed am I.

Curious, too, that like every HRC supporter on here, he makes not a single claim about her policies, and how they further core Democratic or progressive values. Because they don't. It is the politics of power and personality (bubba's, not hers, thankfully for her).

I don't care much for this guy, though I like his gig (bobdylan.com historian).



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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
55. K for later
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