In making your choice to support a candidate, on what basis are you evaluating Sen. Clinton?

[Guaranteed]

What factors are you taking into consideration? I suppose this post especially applies to those who have come to the "conclusion" that Sen. Clinton would be the best candidate to represent the Democratic Party in the General Election for 2008.

Yeah, so what kind of test are you using, consciously or unconsciously? What standards are you applying?

Electability? Hmmm.

Likability? Yeah, OK. Sure. She's very, uh...nice.

Her positions...(ha ha ha) on the (ha ha ha) issues? (ha ha ha- COUGH COUGH) sorry.

Her looks?

The fact that she is female? Is this reverse sexism?

Her name? Does the word "Clinton" mean enough to elect someone to the Presidency?



Have I missed something? Feel free to point it out if I'm just, like, totally off-base and there are all of these wonderful qualities about Sen. Clinton that I have somehow overlooked.

[JTFrog]

1. I don't support her. BUT

what are you basing your non support on?

Hmmm. Yeah, Ok. Sure. She's very, uh...nice. hahaha - cough - sorry. Looks. Sexism. Name?

Yeah I'd say you missed EVERYTHING.

At least put a little substance in your post. This is why people with real issues get labeled haters here.

[Guaranteed]

3. Well, I'm going to have to repeat myself. But I'll keep it short.

She is the absolute worst candidate we have. That's because, out of all of the candidates, she had the greatest opportunity to put up the greatest resistance to the Bush Administration over the past four to six years, but she failed to do so.

With the name "Clinton" comes great responsibility. She failed, and still fails, to understand that. She's only in it on the path of least resistance. Her support is soft and, honestly, I believe that her ambition is soft. She doesn't believe. She doesn't care. And she doesn't belong in the race.

[MethuenProgressive]

34. THIS THREAD IS GOING TO BE LOCKED!!

Oh wait, it's a smear job on Clinton, not Obawards. So never mind.
:rofl:

[ellisonz]

2. Her positions and her personal history.

[Guaranteed]

4. Personal history, like what?

And what positions of hers did you like BEFORE THE CAMPAIGN STARTED?

[ellisonz]

7. IMHO she hasn't done anything to demonstrate an exceptional leadership ability...

She's not a bad person, she's just not a particularly exceptional individual.

I'm not sure she's really that strong of an advocate for human rights when its not right in front of her.

She doesn't really understand what its like to be part of the underclass in America because she was sheltered as a child and never really broke out her shell.

I agree with Carl Bernstein:

"By the time seventeen-year-old Hillary Rodham left Park Ridge, for Wellesley College, almost all the essential elements—and contradictions—of her adult character could be glimpsed: the keen intelligence and ability to stretch it, the ambition and anger, the idealism and acceptance of humiliation, the messianism and sense of entitlement, the attraction to charismatic men and indifference to conventional feminine fashion, the seriousness of purpose and quickness to judgment, the puritan sensibility and surprising vulnerability, the chronic impatience and aversion to personal confrontation, the insistence on financial independence and belief in public service, the tenacious attempts at absolute control and, perhaps above all, the balm, beacon, and refuge of religion."

http://www.carlbernstein.com/awic_excerpt.php

[Guaranteed]

8. Want to hear something weird?

That's 80-90% me.

[ellisonz]

9. And that's exactly why you shouldn't be President!

;-)

[Guaranteed]

10. If she and Big Dawg ever get divorced, I'll be there

for her to pick up the pieces.

:P

Probably a bad idea as well.


But you're damned right that she should NOT be President.

[LaurenG]

5. I think Senator Clinton

is too much like what we already have. To me she is too willing to go along with the status quo and not willing enough to go up against the machine.

We have had a long tough time of living in lies in this world and enough is enough.

I think that some of the candidates think they are doing the best for our country by believing what is being said and making that a part of their campaign.

Then there are others who have a much more idealized version of what we could be and I'm willing to get behind them even if they are in last place or never given air time.

If we don't work toward how it could be or begin to outline a better way we will never get anywhere near where our country should be. I'll lean as far left as I have to if that is what it takes to keep us from continuing on into an abyss.

[Guaranteed]

6. That is a great post.

I'm leaning hard as well. Not sure if I'll lean as hard as it ever takes, but I'll keep leaning as long as it's mandatory for balance, at LEAST.

[K Gardner]

31. Ditto, U-Turn Needed

Very well said. I think the majority of people don't look much beyond a sound bite off the MSM, or a headline. Certainly, most don't research and converse and dissect like "we" do. I would gladly support her if I only didn't feel she'd completely sold out. That being said, did she "sell out" because she knew that's what it would take to get nominated/elected?? Is she shrewd or just another corporate pawn? I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I'll vote for her IF she gets the nomination. But our country headed so far down the wrong road 7 long years ago that it's going to take much more than a slight turn to the middle to get us back on track. It's going to take a sharp U-Turn to the left, and as Ohio Blues said, I'll go as far left as I have to. And she's not left enough for me right now.

[denem]

11. She's the Titanic and I ddon't see the icebergs.

The Titanic was not 6the fastest or most luxurious ship ever built but it was the most famous, AFTER hitting the iceberg. Hillary is more unsinkable: Her husband got impeached over an affair, and she stayed afloat through out without a misstep.

But the unsinkable meme is really in the perception that this is the first ultra low risk presidency. The American People already know what like to have the Clintons in the White House. In times of crisis, people go for safety.

[Crunchy Frog]

12. I don't think she's electable.

That's really the bottom line for me. She could be the most progressive person in the world, and it doesn't mean squat if she can't get elected.

[anniebelle]

13. That's my problem with Clinton and Obama.

I don't think either are electable. I like both Hillary and Barack, but I think they both have major hurdles next November. Mainly the utter stupidity and bigotry of 52% of this country. I hear so much of it on C-Span and in my little redneck paper here in Tennessee -- it's not gonna happen. IMHO.

[mwb970]

16. But Clinton and Obama have been "anointed" by the media.

A number of our "second tier" candidates (Dodd and Richardson come to mind) are more qualified and have more relevant experience than any of the media's "top tier", including Hill. But how can anyone find out about them when the Clinton vs. Obama prizefight is the only thing the media are interested in?

[K Gardner]

36. Esattamente

And that is what makes the "anointing" so damned frustrating. How can people make an educated decision when most follow the MSM like sheep to a slaughter? All one had to do was see the spectacle of Clinton and Obama center stage at the last "staged debate", with Edwards on the end and no one else given any air time to know the fix was in.

[Perry Logan]

14. Here are some highlights of Hillary's record

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Humane Society of the United States 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Trust for Historic Preservation 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Education Association 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Wilderness Coalition 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Children's Defense Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Association of University Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Organization for Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 91 percent in 2006.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 100 percent in 2005

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence 100 percent from 1988-2003 (Senate) or 1991-2003 (House).

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Public Health Association 80 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers 84 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Worker 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees 88 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of Government Employees 83 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Committee for an Effective Congress 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 100 percent in 2005.

According to the National Journal - Composite Liberal Score's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on economic, defense and foreign policy issues than 80 percent of the Senators.

According to the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on social policy issues than 83 percent of the Senators.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Alliance for Retired Americans 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 92 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Bread for the World 100 percent in 2003-2004.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Partnership for the Homeless 100 percent in 2003-2004.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=WNY99268

She was promoting universal coverage before it was cool. Furthermore she helped to create the SCHIP program. And most importantly she was dead on in the debate the other week where she said political will was the most important thing needed to push health care reform through and we know without a doubt she has that.

She has fougt unrelentingly for a woman's right to choose as well as women's rights both domestically and abroad

Create a Strategic Energy Fund - Hillary has proposed a Strategic Energy Fund that would inject $50 billion into research, development and deployment of renewable energy, energy efficiency, clean coal technology, ethanol and other homegrown biofuels. Hillary's proposal would give oil companies a choice: invest in renewable energy or pay into the fund. Hillary's proposal would also eliminate oil company tax breaks and make sure that oil companies pay their fair share for drilling on public lands. Instead of sending billions of dollars to the Middle East for their oil, Hillary's proposal will create a new clean energy industry in America and create tens of thousands of jobs here.

Champion a Market-Based "Cap and Trade" Approach - Hillary supports a market-based, cap and trade approach to reducing carbon emissions and fight global warming. This approach was used successfully to limit sulfur dioxide and reduce levels of acid rain in the 1990s. By capping the amount of emissions in the environment and allowing corporations to buy and sell permits, this approach offers corporations a flexible, cost-efficient method to do their share to reduce emissions and combat global warming. The program will reduce emissions, drive the development of clean technologies, and create a market for projects that store carbon dioxide.

20% Renewable Electricity Standard by 2020 - Hillary believes we need to shift our reliance on high carbon electricity sources to low-carbon electricity sources by investing in renewable energy sources, such as solar and wind. As President, she'll work to require power companies to obtain 20 percent of their energy from renewable sources by 2020.

Make Federal Buildings Carbon Neutral - Hillary believes that the federal government should lead the way in reducing carbon emissions from buildings. Buildings account for 40 percent of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions, and the federal government owns or leases more than 500,000. Hillary would require all federal buildings to steadily increase the use of green design principles, energy efficient technologies, and to generate energy on-site from solar and other renewable sources. By 2030, all new federal buildings and major renovations would be carbon neutral, helping to fight global warming and cutting the $5.6 billion that the federal government spends each year on heating, cooling and lighting.

Protecting Against Exposure to Toxic Chemicals - Hillary wants to make the products we use safer, especially for children. There are tens of thousands of chemicals used in the U.S. and hundreds of new chemicals introduced each year, but little health testing is conducted for many of them. Hillary would require chemical companies to prove that new chemicals are safe before they are put on the market, and would set more stringent exposure standards for kids. She would also create a "priority list" of existing chemicals and require testing to make sure they are safe. To improve our understanding of the links between chemicals and diseases like cancer, Hillary would create an "environmental health tracking network" that ties together information about pollution and chronic diseases.

Hillary's Record

Hillary has been a leading member of the Environment and Public Works Committee since she was elected to the Senate. Today, she chairs the Superfund and Environmental Health Subcommittee and in that capacity has promoted legislation to evaluate and protect against the impact of environmental pollutants on people's health and clean up toxic waste.

Global warming and Clean Air
Spoken out forcefully about the need to tackle global warming in hearings, speeches, rallies and on the Senate floor and co-sponsored "cap and trade" legislation.
Worked to reduce air pollution that causes asthma and other respiratory diseases by writing and helping to pass new laws to clean up exhaust from school buses, and other diesel-powered equipment.
Supported legislation to reduce pollution from power plants, including harmful emissions of sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury, and carbon dioxide - emissions that contribute to poor air quality, smog, acid rain, global warming, and mercury contamination of fish.
Aggressively fought the Bush Administration's ill-advised attempts to weaken clean air laws.

Improving Water Quality and Protecting Drinking Water
Helped to overturn the Bush Administration's attempt to allow more arsenic in drinking water.
Cosponsored legislation to protect lakes, rivers and coastal waters by fighting the spread of destructive invasive species, such as the zebra mussel.
Helped ot pass new clean water laws, including measures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

Protecting Public Lands
Fought oil company efforts to pen the Artic Wildlife Refuge in Alask and Pacific and Atlantic coastal waters to drilling.
Cosponsored the Roadless Area Conservation Act, which prohibits road construction and logging in unspoiled, roadless areas of the National Forest System, and voted for additional funding and manpower to combat forest fires in the west.

Reducing Dangerous Chemicals and Cleaning Up Hazardous Waste
Supported legislation to restore the "polluter pays" principle by reinstating a chemical company fee to fund cleanups of highly contaminated "Superfund" waste sites.
Cosponsored the "kids-Safe Chemical Act," which requires chemical companies to provide health and safety before putting new chemicals in consumer products.
Proposed legislation to create an environmental health tracking network to enable us to better understand the impact of environmental hazards on human health and well-being.

Tackling the Toxic Legacy of 9/11
Pushed for health care benefits for first responders, residents and others whose health has been impacted from breathing the toxic dust and smoke in New York City after 9/11.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/8/20/134810/677

The following are polls from progressive groups, rating Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, on how often they vote for progressive issues. For each group, http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011142.php

Clinton Vs. Barack Obama (progressivepunch)
Overall Progressive Score: 92% 90%
Aid to Less Advantaged People at Home and Abroad: 98% 97%
Corporate Subsidies 100% N/A
Education, Humanities and the Arts 88% 100%
Environment 92% 100%
Fair Taxation 97% 100%
Family Planning 88% 80%
Government Checks on Corporate Power 95% 97%
Healthcare 98% 94%
Housing 100% 100%
Human Rights & Civil Liberties 82% 77%
Justice for All: Civil and Criminal 94% 91%
Labor Rights 91% 91%
Making Government Work for Everyone, Not Just the Rich or Powerful 94% 90%
War and Peace 80% 86%

[RC]

17. Unless I missed something, I did not see anything about her support of

bu$h's war. There is also the problem of where some of her campaign money is coming from. Rupert Murdoch? Who else on the far right supports Hillary with campaign contributions?

[Oldenuff]

22. Impressive list of accomplishments....BUT

Where does she stand on the important issue of FREEDOM??


She voted for the Patriot Act.I don't know how you feel about your personal freedoms,but I take them dead seriously.She can't be the leader we need in this time and place,if she didn't have the moral fiber to oppose such a piece of crap.If I can't trust her to safeguard my liberties,then what good is she to me,and indeed to all Americans?

I'm not singling her out because she lacked the backbone to oppose this travesty of legislation,because all the "frontrunners" voted for it,but don't expect everyone to say it's all right,all the other guys voted it for it too.(although there were 3 who had the integrity to vote no)

Again,anyone who voted for this "affront to our liberties" ought to be run out of town on a rail,and then tarred and feathered.

You may now return to the "Hillary is my Everything" thread.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Ninety Eight Other Senators Voted For The Patriot Act

DSB

[mrreowwr_kittty]

25. I support those things too, can I be President? nt

[cyclezealot]

15. I suggest you link to Molly Ivins essay, 'I wont vote for Hillary.'

Enough cause to give pause. Or are you gonna dis Molly Ivins too.

[rucky]

18. On the upside, she's a known quantity.

on the downside, from what I know of all the candidates, I know we can do better.

If she wins, I'll support her, and she'll do fine, but we have too much talent in this field for the primary to be a landslide victory. Let's get the best in there - we deserve it.

[MadHound]

19. Her positions and her corporate ties

Her position on the war is the most hawkish out there, stating that she will keep the war going by having our troops continue missions against AlQuaeda, train Iraqi soldiers and guard bases, all in a life fire zone. This all sounds like Kennedy and Ike with Vietnam and their "advisers" She can't promise when she'll get the troops out, and with her support of Kyle/Lieberman, it is obvious that she is amendable to getting into war with Iran.

Her corporate ties are also disturbing. Her ass is owned by the health insurance, media, and financial sectors, among others, and under Clinton we can expect another four years of the rich getting richer while the poor continue to suffer and die, much like under her husband and Bushboy both.

This is why I don't support Hillary, she's another one of the elites who's going to continue to rig the game of government so that her constituents, that upper six percent, benefit while the rest of us are screwed.

[mrfixit]

20. Her ability to beat the GOP to the White House

I'n no fan - Dennis Kucinich is my man, and, in one word, "integrity" is why he has my support. Many other Dems seem to be concentrating on winning the WH, and only winning the WH. That's their only priority. I prefer a candidate that will not only win the White House, but change America's direction in terms of foreign policy/trade/labour relations/healthcare/social security/etc. as well...

I don't see HRC as something new, only more of the same.

She is wholly capable of defeating any Repiglican in the field, however. So is Dennis Kucinich, in my opinion - I really wish that more Democrats were getting his message...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYWWBwf2wHE

[robcon]

21. I trust her judgement.

The most important thing for a president is to react to unknown/unpredictable events and come up with with the correct response.

Hillary Clinton is the one I trust the most to do that.

[RC]

26. Like your word has much weight when you have your profile hidden.

[monmouth]

24. She's not even on my radar...n/t

[KittyWampus]

27. Her bogus touting of 'experience'. Cause if she wants to use Bill Clinton's experience as her own

we can look at the way Clinton allowed GOP corruption (BCCI and Iran/Contra) to get swept under the rug.

The traitorous criminals came back with a vengence because they were never fully exposed.

If America isn't forced to grow up and recognize the rot in our midst we will indeed crumble permanently into something abhorant.

[LWolf]

28. Her record, her platform, her rhetoric, her connections,

her donor list, and her campaign.

Which all take her off my table.

[Desertrose]

38. You said it for me too, LWolf

Totally off the table.....


:hi:
DR

[LWolf]

40. Hi, friend!

:hi:

[CyberPieHole]

29. The whole package. Six of some---half a dozen of the other.

She is presidential, smart, well spoken, connected, experienced, a fighter, audacious, strong, resilient, adaptable, a team player, probably the best chance we have at securing the White House come 08. We have other candidates who are equally good, they just are not getting their message through to the public.

:kick:

[Honeycombe8]

30. On her positions on issues and her past voting record, and NAFTA. I conclude a "no" as to support.

So I've decided not to vote for her. Esp. after seeing the actions of her supporters, particularly the booing of the other candidates in order to stifle democratic debate. That's a key to how they would like to see the country run. No debate. No criticism. No unflattering discussions. It reminds me of something....hmmmm...now, what is it it reminds me of? Oh, yeah. The last 7 years.

But as for her gender, I think it IS valid to take into account the fact that she is female and that a female has never been elected as President of our country. I think it IS valid to take into account Obama's race. It IS valid to try to seek diversity in all government offices.

I think it would be good for the country to be run from a different viewpoint - that of either a female or a biracial person.

But that is only ONE consideration of many.

Likeability is valid...very few people vote for someone they don't like. While I don't like Clinton, I must admit that many others do. Her staffers are particularly devoted to her and have been with her for years. The Republican senators she works with directly don't seem to hate her, either. She must be likeable in some respect.

But I will not vote for her because of NAFTA, her Iraq War vote, the way her supporters act toward other candidates, and some other reasons. No one thing in particular.

[William769]

32. And you expect to get a intelligent answer with the way you worded it?

Good luck with that.

[babylonsister]

35. Bummer. I am enjoying this thread and was waiting for you to tell

us why you're such a fan. Please do, I'm all ears.

[William769]

39. This is why I am such a great fan.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3734876&mesg_id=3734906 :rofl:

[Amanita]

33. I use the same criteria for all: their record. That's why DK and Gravel

are the only ones who even pass mustard with me.
Electability is a code word meaning MSM endorsed.
That being said, some of your suggestions are downright offensive.

[AtomicKitten]

37. Her votes on war and more war.