Do you think the phrase "hard and brittle" is sexist?

[cali]

I sure as hell do when it's applied to a woman candidate. Have you ever heard a male candidate referred to in that way. kkkarl is employing classic dog whistle politics in describing Clinton that way- right out of the Lee Atwood school of code talk.

[rucky]

1. It just has a different meaning when you call a guy "hard and brittle". n/t

[cali]

3. *snort*

hard? yeah. hard and brittle? that's an odd mental picture.

[Capn Sunshine]

27. You mean, like "Careful with that thing---it might shatter!" ?

:evilgrin:

[rucky]

32. more like...

[slick8790]

37. Bwahaha

I literally almost died laughing when I saw that. And he wanted to be president.

[rwheeler31]

2. yes

[jkshaw]

4. I've heard men called "hard"

It's not a compliment. But I've never heard of a man called "brittle" unless he was bordering on a nervous breakdown.

You know, if something like this is repeated often enough, it'll stick, and that's the idea. How to stop it is the problem.

[CnAnPB]

5. NO n/t

NO

[CaliforniaPeggy]

40. Welcome to DU! nt

[emilyg]

6. Yes.

[babylonsister]

7. I think cali has picked her candidate.

Being in the political limelight doesn't work for anyone who doesn't have a thick skin.
And I'm sort of amazed that anything Rove says affects you or anyone who knows what a slimebucket he is.

[cali]

15. I call bs on bs.

you're quite wrong. I don't have those feelings. I don't support Clinton because I'm uneasy with her stance on Iraq and Iran and those are huge for me. I long ago made the decision that I wouldn't vote for anyone in the primary who voted for IWR, as I believe it showed either bad judgement or political opportunism.

I try and take people here at their word, unless I have real evidence that their word isn't good. What a shame you don't see things that way. You're perfectly well aware that I've stated that I don't support Clinton: we've had that discussion.

I object to sexism and bullshit. Some of you seem comfortable with it as long as it's directed against someone you don't like,

[babylonsister]

43. What a shame for me, cali. What you say goes, always.

And why did Rove's comments inspire you to post about it? You are constantly telling us what's wrong with us all, with candidates, and why we'd be better if only we'd listen to you.
I don't agree, but many do, so have at it; maybe I'm wrong. And maybe I'm not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3731018

[cali]

50. oh you're wrong all right.

and yeah, someone snarks at me, they get it back. What inspired me to post about the rove piece? That it's interesting to see that kind of Lee Atwood style codified attack being put out there. And I like to analyze this stuff. That's why I posted my opinion on Obama's reaction to Novak.

I have NEVER said that what I say goes for anything beyond my personal beliefs. And yeah, damned straight if I say that I'm not supporting a candidate, that's what goes. Because I know that better than you or anyone else. That's not too hard to grasp.

Nor have I ever said that anybody would be better off listening to me. I post my analysis and my opinions, and often do so forcefully. No one has to agree with me, and quite often people don't.

I don't criticize your penchant for posting a myriad of articles strongly critical of Clinton. That's most certainly your right. I've never called you a Clinton "hater" and I never would.

You threw bullshit at me. I responded and called you on it. It's that simple.

[babylonsister]

54. I post what I see, and I agree, you didn't

criticize me for one notable anti-Clinton blog I posted. You forgot to add I post lots of positive things about lots of people. You seem intent on protecting a certain candidate; I've seen you do it. Just fess up is all I'm saying. And what's with your Lee Atwood compulsion? I think, in order to 'talk' to you, I need to study up on that, because I am lost.
I know you are very smart and opinionated, cali, but I can't agree with everything you say. Have we ever agreed?



:hi:

[cali]

64. fess up? Please.

when did you stop beating your wife? That stuff is beneath you- at least I think it is. Like many other people here who don't support Clinton, I feel obliged to defend her from the attacks that are not legitimate- i.e. personal attacks about her marriage, comparisons to Hitler, bush and cheney, etc. I also criticize her on policy and other things. All you have to do is search to confirm that.

Lee Atwood was one of the majors architects for the republican strategy of smear and steal. He was in the Reagan and Bush Sr. WH. He was one of the most important- and morally repugnant political strategists is the history of the country. Everything the repubs do is built on Atwater's strategy. He was also Rove's mentor:

Here's a bit from wiki- and exerpt from an interview with Atwater in the 80s:

"Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, 'Nigger, nigger, nigger.' By 1968 you can't say 'nigger' - that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites.
And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me - because obviously sitting around saying, 'We want to cut this,' is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than 'Nigger'."

Here another bit:

"Harvey Leroy "Lee" Atwater (February 26, 1951 – March 29, 1991) was an American Republican political consultant and strategist. He was born in Atlanta, Georgia and graduated from Newberry College, a small private Lutheran institution in Newberry, South Carolina.

Atwater was a trusted advisor of U.S. Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush. He was also a political mentor and close friend of Karl Rove. Atwater invented many of the techniques of modern electoral politics, including promulgating reputation-destroying rumors. His opponents have characterized him as the "happy hatchet man"<1> and "the Darth Vader of the Republican party".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater

Understanding who Atwater was, gives one a much better idea of what the repuke party IS.

[sufrommich]

16. We shouldn't ignore attempts at gender bashing

no matter who we support and we should be vocal when it's attempted.No woman running for political office "deserves" it.

[babylonsister]

56. Clinton doesn't deserve a pass because she's a woman, does she? nt

[sufrommich]

62. A pass for what?

Should Dems accept sexist code words as politics as usual? If Obama wins the nom and he's attacked in ways that are obviously crouched in racist terms,should we accept it as part of the game? This willingness to ignore sexist attacks against Clinton because she's "not my candidate" is disappointing.We shouldn't "give a pass" to any effort to dismiss our candidates on anything other than issues.Democratic commitments to gender and racial equality don't begin and end with personal likes and dislikes.

[babylonsister]

63. If there is an issue with sexism, that's one thing, but I haven't seen

one at all. Or have I and ignored it? I don't think it is one.

[rwheeler31]

8. It is discrimination against old men and women.

[sufrommich]

9. "Brittle" when used as a descriptive of a woman

implies elderly and no longer capable of reproduction.At least that is what it congers up with me. In a youth loving culture which still falls for sexist imagery,it has a powerful connotation which suggests a lack of usefulness. A perfect Rovian play on words.

[Cameron27]

11. I think you've nailed it.

[cali]

18. It's also frequently used as descriptive of women who aren't

quite mentally stable. Anyone who doesn't understand how sexist this is, needs to grab a clue.

[sufrommich]

21. Agreed.nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. I Don't Think KKK Rove Has Been Hard In Twenty Years

DSB

[emilyg]

38. His floppy needs hard disc replacement.

[last_texas_dem]

12. No

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a male candidate who I've heard referred to as "hard and brittle" but I can't think of any female candidates who I've heard called that either, before Rove used it to describe Clinton in that recent article. It's not exactly a common description to use. However, I don't see it as much different than calling someone "cold" which I have heard applied to both men and women. "Hard and brittle" is certainly not a nice thing to say about someone, but I don't see how that description is particularly sexist.

[JohnnyLib2]

13. Yes, sexist.

And it would be foolish to ignore Rove, IMO.

[WCGreen]

14. Peanut brittle is both hard and brittle...

and really tasty even when full of nuts...

[saltpoint]

17. I would say that Paul Klee's images suggest a hard and brittle,

perhaps emotionless landscape.

Ebeneezer Scrooge was hard and brittle.

I hear your point, cali, but it can be applied to boys and paintings, too.

[cali]

19. have you ever seen a description of Scrooge as hard and brittle?

Let alone Klee's works.

[saltpoint]

23. You and I don't have to call Scrooge such things; Dickens does that for us.

And how!

http://www.stormfax.com/1dickens.htm

[cali]

26. I don't see the brittle

in this passage:

"Oh! But he was a tight-fisted hand at the grind- stone, Scrooge! a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous, old sinner! Hard and sharp as flint, from which no steel had ever struck out generous fire; secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster. The cold within him froze his old features, nipped his pointed nose, shriveled his cheek, stiffened his gait; made his eyes red, his thin lips blue and spoke out shrewdly in his grating voice. A frosty rime was on his head, and on his eyebrows, and his wiry chin. He carried his own low temperature always about with him; he iced his office in the dogdays; and didn't thaw it one degree at Christmas."

But at any rate, the point is simple: you will NEVER find such a description of a male candidate, and it connotes negative stereotypes about middle aged, post menopausal woment. And as Jim Sagle said, "it's a highfalutin' way of calling a woman a bitch".

[saltpoint]

29. If it's applied to a painting, it isn't applied to a woman, is it?

The descriptions throughout the Dickens tale of E. Scrooge suggest a hard and brittle man, almost soulless, who does not (pardon me for this phrase, please) find his feminine side until he is shaken and frightened into awareness by the ghosts who visit him on Christmas eve.

He's a lot more agreeable, compassionate, generous, and inclusive the next morning after the ghosts scare the crap out of him.

All along, this is the Scrooge we're rooting for, isn't it?

The more feminine Scrooge, the more generous business man, the more compassionate citizen.

Plus, Tiny Tim doesn't die a cripple, etc.

[saltpoint]

53. It's fair to say, isn't it, that Dickens is drawing the portrait to MORE than

fit "hard and brittle" ?

We're getting a distinctly repellent personality in E. Scrooge.

Who is male.

[saltpoint]

25. Also with Klee:

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=1543-6314(194011)12%3A7%3C37%3AENY%3E2.0.CO%3B2-R

--this is a subscription / fee-only service, but here is an exceprt:

"One cannot speak of Klee without men- tion of the fragile, sensitive lyricism of his linear style. The childlike symbols are drawn with a brittle precision ..."

[cali]

28. I'm sorry. you seem to be totally missing the point.

we're talking about a specific phrase, not the words brittle OR hard used to describe a work of art or a charater out of Dicken's.

[saltpoint]

30. Your point is when the phrase is applied to women and your OP asks if that is

sexist.

It is if it's intended as a weapon against women.

But if also it is applied to men, it is not a sexist construction.

It can serve a far larger landscape and so serve a much more complex purpose.

[cali]

31. here's a simple challenge: Find a male politician who's ever

been described that way. The stuff about Klee and Scrooge is about the most scarlet herring ever seen.

[saltpoint]

39. If I understand, you are asking if any male politician has ever been

described with those terms?

There have been and there will be.

A random and very quick and abbreviated Google hunt came up with several, many of known quantity and all boys:

Rahm Emanuel

Ethics reform | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington
Rahm Emanuel (D-IL) oversaw the Democratic victories in 2006 as chair of the .... The legal and political tumble of one politically brittle Congressman, ...

Bill Frist

Bill Frist: - The Fix
I know Howard Dean. I've heard him scream. Bill Frist is no Howard Dean. .... Frist is too 1) patrician, 2) brittle and 3) thin-skinned to get the ...


Howard Dean

Results 1 - 20 of about 103,000 for Howard Dean, brittle. (0.15 seconds)
Jeffrey St. Clair: The Trouble with Howard Dean
So now we are presented with Howard Dean, the latest incarnation of a maverick .... centrist obsessions comes out sounding brittle and vaguely threatening. ...
www.counterpunch.org/stclair02022004.html - 59k -


Cheney / Daniels

Independents Unbound: 2/11/07 - 2/18/07
... a brittle temper and that he has made missteps on key conservative issues. ...... counsel under then OMB Director Mitch Daniels, also a Cheney loyalist. ...
independentsunbound.blogspot.com/ 2007_02_11_archive.html -

etc.

There are "hard" and "brittle" male humans throughout history.

[cali]

44. that's not bad. but it still isn't

the same codified language of hard+brittle- as Jim Sagle said, that's a way of calling a woman a bitch.

From an article on sexism in general today:

Hillary Rodham Clinton is the woman in the second two examples.

Hungerford said Clinton will have -- and already has had -- a tougher road during her campaign for president than her closest Democratic rival, Barack Obama.

"I think that she will have a more grueling scrutiny than he will, and she already has," Hungerford said.

"She's been called too harsh, too assertive, too cold, too brittle. There's nothing she can do that won't draw criticism."

http://www.stargazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070729/NEWS0312/707290314/1207/news0312

[saltpoint]

48. She is brittle, cali. That's why so many people are NOT supporting her.

She holds the national lead in the polls but she is over-cautious and unemotional, very likely by design. If by nature or design, she is not called these things because she is female; she is called these things because they are


TRUE.


I'm a lifelong Democrat. I acknowledge the woman's lead in the polls and fundraising and I am absolutely unenthusiastic about her candidacy. She's a dull, flat-spirited speaker and her public persona is unwelcoming. It has nothign to do with her being female.

Your entire hinge is way off from the start.

If you want a discussion of sexist language, you have to include all the properties of language, which NOT incidently applies to men and to women both.

How many times have female posters on DU called Cheney a dick on these boards? Thousands. We don't hear from you on those posts in this context. Should we have?

No. He is a dick. His attitude and his imperiousness make him a dick. Not his dick.

Do you see where I'm coming from on this?

[cali]

52. Look, I don't want her as the nominee either, but

I absolutely don't like sexist crap- and I don't think brittle is an accurate description of her.

Right, I don't criticize women on DU for calling Cheney a dick. And that has nothing to do with what we're discussing. Interesting that you'd bring it up.

I also find Clinton uninspiring, overly formulated and cautious. But the unemotional thing? Nope. and hey, I'm one of those who just doesn't like her voice all that much- even after all the work she's put in on it, and I don't think that's sexist. The cackle thing: sexist.

I do see where you're coming from, but I really do see Rove's entire piece as deeply rooted in sexism- and it's thinly veiled.

[saltpoint]

57. Well we not only agree on Karl Rove, we REALLY agree on Karl Rove.

The man is a rodent. A lizard-souled sociopath with such a craving for power and approval that he sold his soul long, long ago to all the wrong people who wanted to do all the wrong things with our Constitution.

We really do need to get on to a Democratic White House.

I'll take any of our 8 over anybody the Pukes throw at us.

I'll take any Democrat who walks down the street, as long as it isn't Zell Miller.

Who isn't even human, I don't think.

Honestly -- give the McMurtry essay a spin. It's a hoot. A bit rough along the edges, but I think you'll get the Texas small-town high school -to - young adulthood account and appreciate it.

[cali]

59. I like McMurtry's fiction, I'll be happy to give his essay

a shot.

[saltpoint]

60. Cool. cali, you know what? This time next year that little shrew Bush is

going to be packing his damn bags to head back to Crawford.

And a Democrat -- I have no idea which Democrat -- is going to be hiring a U-Haul to move in to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

And that is going to be a real, real good day.

[saltpoint]

41. Here's another 3 politicians and one orchestra conductor. All boys.

Toscanini

Review - GHCD 2232_33 Toscanini All Mozart 1946
... sound more humane than the often brittle and hard-driven Forties performances. ... Toscanini's broadcast and recording differ from each other in tiny ...
www.guildmusic.com/histori/Reviews/rev2233z.htm -

Rudy Giuliani

The Heretik : 2006 : June
Mostly the perception of Giuliani as a brittle, vindictive, divisive mayor. Something is not quite right. There probably are any number of cons sitting in ...
theheretik.us/2006/06/ -

LBJ-era politician profiles

Peace Corps Online | April 4, 2004 - PCOL Exclusive: Jack Vaughn ...
Further, the President came across as brittle and quite dispirited. .... Unfortunately, Lyndon Johnson didn't have the daring to scrap it. ...
peacecorpsonline.org/messages/ messages/2629/2020588.html –

Ulysses S. Grant

Father Abraham: Lincoln's Relentless Struggle to End Slavery - Google Books Result
by Richard ( Striner - 2006 - Biography & Autobiography - 320 pages
Union troops under General Ulysses S. Grant were dispatched to Kentucky only ... First, his bravado was nothing more than a brittle veneer to conceal a ...

[Guaranteed]

45. ....

It was a stupid assertion to begin with. There's no connection, and that should be apparent simply from everyone's personal experience.

[cali]

46. boy are you stretching

your first example is of the performance of a piece of music as being brittle. The other examples- except for the last- aren't bad. Describing an attitude as brittle is different than describing a person as brittle.

Calling Clinton Hard and brittle is classic codified sexist language and dog whistle politics. And it's the combination that makes it so obvious. It's obvious to the majority of posters on this thread. I find it interesting that a couple of men are so vested in trying to prove that it's not.

[saltpoint]

49. I recommend you read Larry McMurtry's wonderful essay on the coarse

language used by men and women generally from high school-age onward into adulthood, regarding sexuality.

The collection is IN A NARROW GRAVE: ESSAYS ON TEXAS. The essay in question is called "Eros in Archer County."

Parental warning: it is not for young ears, so just read it privately at the library.

If you think Toscanini's music was the only thing ever described about him as 'brittle," you don't know much about Toscanini.

[Jim Sagle]

20. Hell yes!

There are legitimate ways to refer to gender (e.g. "empty pantsuit"), but "hard and brittle" is just a highfalutin way of calling a woman a bitch.

[cali]

22. I agree. I really don't have a problem with "empty pantsuit"

but hard and brittle damn well is a highfalutin' way of calling her a bitch. Well said.

[calteacherguy]

24. It's ROVE! nt

[Guaranteed]

33. .....No.

Not even close.

Seriously, this shit needs to be cut down from the level it's at.

"Hard and brittle" has no gender connotations at all. You're simply putting them in there.

[cali]

34. find one example of a male politician who has ever been

described in such a manner. What a surprise that you're male. Not. It's clearly a sexist comment. It's disgusting to try and pretend it isn't.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[last_texas_dem]

55. Find one example of another female politician who was called that

As I noted in my post above, it's not exactly a common description to use to describe a person. Just because one politician, who happens to be a female, was called that by some asshole, doesn't mean the description "hard and brittle" to describe a female is inherently sexist. Can you describe what makes the description sexist other than that you have decided that it is? Your post asked for whether others thought it was sexist but then you attack someone's opinion that it is not as "disgusting" and claim that they are "pretending" it isn't. If it's so "clearly" sexist then what was the point of your OP asking if others thought it was? So you could attack them if they happened to disagree with your assessment.

Oh yeah, and "What a surprise that you're male" is really a nice touch. How would you feel if someone argued with your point by saying "What a surprise that you're female"? Your tactics certainly aren't going to help bring around anyone to your viewpoint who didn't already agree with your view, but I guess we're all just "pretending" not to hold the same view as you, anyway.

[Guaranteed]

58. Very good and insightful post.

It's an uncommon phrase- which should, in itself, make someone skeptical about any inherent sexism in its use.

[azurnoir]

36. Yes it is

it's a notch above shriveled or dryed-up however, never heard hard and brittle applied to a male and if it was it has some pretty scary connotations:evilgrin:

[Guaranteed]

51. Because you'd never hear say, Jimmy Carter, described as shriveled

or dried-up.

What this is, is playing the gender card. And not well. It's only a way to deflect criticism with the fact that she is female.

[paulk]

42. of course it is -

and you don't even need to parse it, you only need to look for who said it.

Rove thinks HRC is going to be the nominee, and has just revealed the Puke strategy for attacking her.

[Evergreen Emerald]

47. of course it is. He is attempting to bring back the old crap from the 90's

I certainly hope the electorate is smarter than they were last time. Have we learned our lesson yet about Rove and the neo-con propaganda?

And the fact that newsweek hired him, is more proof that we cannot trust the media in all of its forms.

[itsrobert]

61. I guess so; never thought about it before. n/t

n/t