Clinton was slinging mud with both hands last night.

[hedgehog]

CLINTON: "Well, I hear what Senator Obama is saying, and he talks a lot about stepping up and taking responsibility and taking strong positions.

But when it came time to step up and decide whether or not he would support universal health care coverage, he chose not to do that. His plan would leave 15 million Americans out. That's about the population of Nevada, Iowa, South Carolina and New Hampshire."


The implication is that Obama's plan deliberately leaves 15 million Americans with no coverage. Obama's plan is to offer affordable insurance with decent coverage to every American with subsidies for American with lower incomes. Everyone would be in aposition to select a good insurance program without having to go bankrupt trying to pay for it. The plan does not leave 15 million people out in the cold to try to purchase insurance on their own. What it doesn't do is require people to purchase insurance.

Now maybe 15 million people are stupid enough to pass up the chance to buy affordable insurance. That's a pretty fuzzy number IMO, but OK, that's the number Clinton picked up from Edwards' criticism of Obama's plan. If 15 million people have the opportunity to purchase affordable coverage and choose not to do so, is that Obama's fault or their own?

[laureloak]

1. And what about those Hillary plants booing in the audience.

How stupid does the HC campaign think we are any way?

I want a person with ethics - not another damn game player like Hillary.

[polichick]

3. I heard on msnbc that those booing were union people who support Hillary. nt

[laureloak]

13. And we were told it was an audience of undecided voters. HA!

I don't like the deceit used by the Hillery campaign.

[rinsd]

6. If you want a person with ethics why would you be an Edwards supporter?

:shrug:

[laureloak]

12. That's WHY I support Edwards and NOT Hillary.

[Andy823]

15. What do you want?

A candidate that won't, or can't answer the questions?
A candidate that has to play the gender card, or the poor picked on me card?
A candidate that will give Bush and Cheney a pas to invad Iraq?
A candidate that will support more "free trade agreements" so more Americans lose their job?
A candidate that will NOT make any changes in things, but will "stay the course" set by Bush?

I could go on and on, but if this is what you want, you got it in Hillary!:hi:

[PurityOfEssence]

32. Because we understand what ethics are

Perhaps a visit with Ms. Dictionary would be time well spent.

They're moral underpinnings, not just sops and bathos to curry favor. Putting oneself on both sides of issues is far different than changing positions; the former, which is consistently practiced by Senator Clinton is deception, the latter is maturation. The former is cowardly and cheap, whereas the latter takes some spine.

Somehow one is to believe that after years of cynical maneuvering for personal teflon majesty, Senator Clinton will actually stand up for something on principle. She wouldn't know a scruple from a crumb cake. She probably thinks a principle is some kind of guidance counselor, but hasn't had a chance to give it much thought since advancement's to be had.

This is personality-cult fantasy of a childish sort: we're to disregard her actions and believe her claims that she'd continue in her long and noble struggle that she hasn't started on yet.

If by some sad calamity she DOES become the nominee, just watch her try to out tough-guy the opponent, it'll be mawkish hawkishness at its most fulsome.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

7. her message is changing as focus group info comes in

once she sees that her plants are pissing off thee and me, as well as innocent bystanders, she will change gears again, and blame others (obama, edwards, and others) for -ganging up-, -picking unfairly on the girl-, or some other bullshit.

[CyberPieHole]

31. You have proof? Or did you pull those charges out of your...

[rjones2818]

2. Hmmm...requires people to purchase insurance.

No wonder he's in my bottom three with HRC and JE.

[hedgehog]

8. Now, that's a legitimate arguement. I would prefer singlepayer myself,

but if this is a step in that direction, I can support Obama on this one. Criticizing or arguing with a candidate's stands or proposals is not mudslinging. Misleading people as to the opponent's stand sor proposals and criticizing the misleading straw man is mudslinging.

[rjones2818]

11. I actually think it's somewhere between the two.

(mudslinging and fair comparison).

[msongs]

4. you infer, hardly mud slinging - obama likening clinton to romney is mud slinging nt

[Andy823]

16. I agree

She is much more like Rudy if you ask me! :eyes:

[hedgehog]

18. I disagree - he compared her use of numbers to mislead people

to Republican tactics as used by Romney and Giuiliani. I think the median income in this country is $40,000. 94% of income earners in this country make less than the current $97,500 Social Security cap and would see no increase in their taxes if the cap were lifted. Clinton's statement suggests that middle class families (the majority of the country) and seniors would see their taxes go up if the cap were removed. Most people would see no increase and I don't see how seniors would be involved at all!

From the transcript:

Clinton " .....I do not want to fix the problems of Social Security on the backs of middle-class families and seniors. If you lift the cap completely, that is a $1 trillion tax increase. I don't think we need to do that. ..."


Obama " I will be very brief on this because, Hillary, I have heard you say this is a trillion-dollar tax cut on the middle class by adjusting the cap. Understand that only 6 percent of Americans make more than $97,000 a year. So 6 percent is not the middle class.

It is the upper class. You know, this is the kind of thing that I would expect from Mitt Romney or Rudy Giuliani, where we start playing with numbers. We start playing with numbers in order to try to make a point."


It ain't mudslinging if it's true.

[hedgehog]

22. Maybe to say she implied his program was faulty was too kind toward Clinton.

Clinton: "he chose not to do that. His plan would leave 15 million Americans out



If you didn't know better, wouldn't you think that CLinton just told you that Obama's plan leaves 15 million Americans to obtain health insurance on their own with no assistance? That's a different kettle of fish than allowing an unknown number of people to opt out of buying insurance.

[xchrom]

5. well first of all -- that's just what happens in a political debate -- second i'm not happy

with any of their schemes except kucinich.

the goal -- we the voters should make clear -- isn't a taxpayer subsidy to insurance companies period.

[durrrty libby]

9. She Rocked

:woohoo: :applause: :woohoo:

[emilyg]

24. Yes she did.

[Basileus Basileon]

10. Oh, come on. Since when is that mudslinging? It's true. 15 million people would end up

with no coverage. Bully for them, but they're a drain on the system.

[hedgehog]

14. If I offered free vaccinations for all children, and the parents

of 200 children chose not to have their children vaccinates, would you say that my plan failed to provide vaccinations for those children? Tha vaccinations would be there, but it's up to the parents to take advantage.

[Basileus Basileon]

17. Health coverage needs to be mandatory. People who are not covered raise everyone's costs, in

addition to being bankruptcy risks.

[hedgehog]

19. That's a valid arguement. You could say that Obama doesn't

require all people to be covered and that you think 15 million will opt out. That's not the same as saying that Obama doesn't offer coverage for those 15 million.

[Basileus Basileon]

23. Well, she didn't say that. She implied it, which was indeed misleading.

Dirty, but not mudslinging, IMO.

[hedgehog]

33. And the difference between fighting dirty and mudslinging is....?

[Basileus Basileon]

35. A matter of degree. nt

[durrrty libby]

20. 15 million v 200. hmm Hardly any difference at all

[Gloria]

21. Her "discussion" about ruling out a rise in the SS cap was enlightening...

Glad to see Obama going toe to toe with her....Her using the GOP-meme about "tax" made my skin crawl...

And as for teacher merit pay (speaking as a former teacher-librarian)...Obama was right to challenge her on that, too....Who is going to decide who deserves "merit" pay? A teacher in a wealthy district or one of those whose funding has been pulled because of Bush's testing fiasco?? Merit pay is what Whitman did in NJ to screw up the public employees in NJ--destroyed the motor vehicle inspection system, and resulted in more fees....

I find Clinton and her GOP-lite crap disgusting and I sure hope the Iowa voters really know what she's proposing! And, if I were a Iowa voter, I'd be insulted by that condescending ad about the caucuses. Not only was there way too much Bill (can't he get off the stage for a minute??) but where did they get that lady to say it was so easy they could get home for their favorite TV show?? It really cheapens the process...which is neighbor talking to neighbor and taken very seriously....

[laureloak]

25. Playing both sides down the middle. I won't vote for her.

[durrrty libby]

26. Who cares?

[laureloak]

27. Obviously you do or you wouldn't have replied.

Underestimate the Hillary-hate out there at the Democratic Party's peril.

[durrrty libby]

28. No really, I don't give a rat's ass.

[Lord Helmet]

29. yabbut the boys are picking on her

:sarcasm:

[dflprincess]

30. Define "affordable"

and tell me what the income limits will be for those who qualify for subsidies - especially single adults under 65 with no dependents. What will happen to people with preexisting conditions?

As a rule the government's definitions of "affordable" and "low income" have no connection to reality.

Any system, other than single payer, is nothing but a gift to the insurance companies.

[hedgehog]

34. A reasonable question and one up for debate. The other half of that is what is a

reasonable charge by a doctor. Right now surgeons are gods while the GP or family doctor who keeps you out of the hospital is actually seeing his pay cut by Medicaid.

As it happens, which of the current plans would you prefer:

Obama would offer you several insurance plans with possibly a subsidy to help you afford it.

Clinton would require you to buy a plan and maybe give you a tax credit.