It's just a terrible, terrible thing....

[littlejoe]

to find out that our leaders have feet of clay.......


To find that they are less than perfect, which some of you feel the nominee has to be, or else he is the devil, no better than Bush.....


Think about it.....

[MurikanDemocrat]

1. But he MUST be PURE!!!

[Walt Starr]

2. I've never asked for perfect

but hell, this year I'm still willing to vote for the Ham Sandwich.

[littlejoe]

13. Why don't you just sit this one out, Walt. I would hate

for you to have to hold your nose while voting. It might cause your chad to hang.

[Walt Starr]

18. Nope, the Ham Sandwich is getting my vote this fall!

[littlejoe]

25. Don't choke on it, walt. We need your scintillating wit, as

well as your laser-like intellect. That ham sandwich stuff is funny funny stuff.

[Walt Starr]

26. You had to be there

It was a hoot of a post and started the "ABB" thing on DU. Spring of 2002 IIRC.

[Exgeneral]

29. I'm pro ham sandwich also

nothing better than ham sandwich

After all, he's the candidate!

[Paulie]

35. on a onion roll for me

[Democat]

3. Don't support any Democrat who doesn't agree with 100% of your views!

Meanwhile many social conservative Republicans rallied behind Arnold in California because they realize that winning is more important than idealism.

[littlejoe]

14. You are so right!

[MercutioATC]

4. I don't want them to be perfect, just sincere...

If you voted to save your political ass, apologize and admit it.

[littlejoe]

15. You are working under the presumption that he was lying.

Bush is the one who lied.

[Egnever]

22. And kerry was right there to prop him up

(Videotape, October 9, 2002):
SEN. KERRY: Iraq has some lethal and incapacitating agents and is capable of quickly producing weaponizing of a variety of such agents, including anthrax, for delivery on a range of vehicles, such as bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers and covert operatives which would bring them to the United States itself.
In addition, we know they are developing unmanned aerial vehicles capable of delivering chemical and biological warfare agents.
According to the CIA’s report, all U.S. intelligence experts agree that they are seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop them.
In the wake of September 11, who among us can say with any certainty to anybody that the weapons might not be used against our troops or against allies in the region? Who can say that this master of miscalculation will not develop a weapon of mass destruction even greater, a nuclear weapon?
(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: Unmanned aerial vehicles...
SEN. KERRY: Sure.
MR. RUSSERT: ...a nuclear threat. Those are exactly the things that you suggested in New Hampshire President Bush had lied to you about.
SEN. KERRY: That’s precisely the point. That is exactly the point I’m making. We were given this information by our intelligence community. Now, either it was stretched politically in the many visits of Dick Cheney to the CIA and the way in which they created a client relationship, but the information we were given, built on top of the seven and a half years of what we knew he was doing, completely justified the notion that you had to respond to give the president the right to put inspectors in. The president said
when he put them in “War is not inevitable.” Colin Powell said to us, “The only rationale for going to war was weapons of mass destruction,” and it was legitimate to hold Saddam Hussein accountable to get the inspectors in. I’m saying to you that I don’t believe this president did the job of exhausting the remedies available to make us as strong as we should have been in doing that and certainly didn’t do the planning to be able to win the peace in the way that we need to. And I still think we can do it, Tim, but we’ve got to
get about the business of doing it.
MR. RUSSERT: But you had access to the intelligence. You had access to the national intelligence estimate...
SEN. KERRY: Absolutely.
MR. RUSSERT: ...which said the CIA had a low confidence in Saddam Hussein using weapons of mass destruction or transferring the terrorists. And the State Department, which is included in the national intelligence estimate, said there was not a compelling case, that he reconstituted his nuclear program.
SEN. KERRY: I didn’t base it on the nuclear, but the most important and compelling rationale were the lack of inspections and the non-compliance of Saddam Hussein. Even Hans Blix at the United Nations said he is not in compliance.
MR. RUSSERT: Were you misled by the intelligence agencies? Were you duped?
SEN. KERRY: No, we weren’t

[littlejoe]

30. I spend way way too much time defending Kerry on IWR.

As I stated, show me a person who doesn't have feet of clay. Show me a politician who hasn't made a mistake.

If I were to give you the benefit of the doubt on Kerry's IWR vote, would you be willing to discount his many consistent votes for the environment?

Are you willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

[MercutioATC]

39. If it WAS a mistake, why won't he just admit it?

[BeFree]

33. More like gave him just enough rope.....

Ya know, the inspectors did go back into Iraq, because there was broad international support to do so. Hans Blix went over there and came back with the report that SH was not compliant. Later, Hans said that 1: no WMD were found, and 2: SH was beginning to comply. JK's support stopped right then and there, but B*, without anymore UN backing, invaded anyway.

Just trying to keep the story straight, don'tcha know?

[Egnever]

41. You act like the UN wasnt allready willing to send....

the inspectors back in and had to be forced to do so.

Thats complete spin. The only thing the UN was against was starting a war. Bush was looking for the backing of congress to push the UN to accepting a resolution that endorsed war as a result of failed inspections. Something the UN wasnt willing to do deaspite congress buckiling to the shrub.

Just trying to keep the story straight dont ya know.

Add to that the fact that the non compliance issues you speak about were so minor as to be laughable or completely inacurate apraisals and you are spining for bush. Just like kerry!

[BeFree]

42. No spin

The IWR was a resolution granting the POTUS the option to war if, IF, the UN inspections turned up WMD, and the WMD could not otherwise be removed.

It also was enforcing a sense upon the POTUS that if war was unavoidable, that such a war would be undertaken only with broad international support and military backing.

In GW1, the POTUS, B* #1, recoiled from regime change in Iraq because 1) the international community would not support it, and 2) it would leave the US in an untenable position by virtue of the resulting need for nation building.

But B* #2, against even his own fathers advice, and without the continued support from either JK, or the UN, went ahead and got us involved in this nation building clusterfuck.

[MercutioATC]

28. Either he's lying or he's helplessly naive. Take your pick.

1) He voted for the IWR because it was the publicly popular thing to do, or

2) He actually trusted a President of the opposition party who'd surrounded himself with an array of advisers the likes of which have not been seen since Nazi Germany to "tell the truth" and only wage war as a last resort.

...which is it?

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. There is a right good ways between perfect and current US policy

which both of the candidates considered "electable" can be trusted to maintain with some very visible cosmetic changes and phrased in much nicer words.

[RafterMan]

6. It's fun to mock

People because they need something to be "perfect", but are you sure every non-ABBer is not trying to compromise as much as they can?

Is it utterly imposible that there's something about a candidate that just pushes them past the farthest line they can draw?

And for you, is there *no* principle of yours that a non-Bush candidate could violate to lose your vote?

It's possible for people to break, even when they're trying hard to bend. I know it's a terrible, terrible thing to find out that voters have feet of clay, to find out that they are less than perfect, that they just can't accept everything you want them to, that they are the devil, no better than Bush...

Think about it...

[MuseRider]

9. Good post. n/t

[GreenArrow]

10. fuck it. most of us fringe leftists compromise on everything

and get very little back except more promises. The unfortunate thing is that we live in a right wing country. We're fucked coming and going. We get utter contempt from the far right, and condescension and false promises from the left, which I can hardly fault them on; hell, they are trying to save their own asses, and they know which way the wind is blowing. Let's face it, Democrats don't win elections by running to the left; they run to the center and the right.

[union_maid]

11. No, none

My high minded principles went out the window when I voted for Clinton..twice. I'd said all my life that I'd never vote for a candidate that supported the death penalty. That was my line in the sand. Then there was the choice between two candidates who supported it. One was a legacy of the Reagan years and the other was at least a Democrat who offered some good and some bad ideas. Overall, I'm far from satisfied with the Clinton presidency but I'm very satisfied that it was better to people than another four years of Bush I would have been and I fully understand that those were the only real choices we had. This is a different time, though and this time, I think that our candidate will improve the party if he wins. I think any of the original slate would have except Lieberman and either of the remaining viable candidates will be a big plus for the party as president.

[Walt Starr]

12. Bravo

Simply that, bravo!

[LandOLincoln]

32. Second that emotion!

[JVS]

17. Amen

[littlejoe]

20. Look, I would sell my soul to get Bush out of office.

I don't care this year. I don't know how plain I can make it. I could care less if Kerry was caughtr having sex with a cadaver. Anything. ANYTHING to get bush out of office.

I AM A DEMOCRAT!

[littlejoe]

34. And your point is..........?

[oasis]

7. "Broken Glass Dems" they'd rather crawl over broken glass than vote Kerry

[Exgeneral]

31. maybe true in the primary

which isn't over YET.

But come the lection, if Hamsandwich is on the ballot, he gets my vote.

[GreenArrow]

8. it's not about purity

it's about what they stand for. I don't expect my "leaders" to be perfect, but I would hope that they would at least gravitate towards that which is life affirming.

[yowzayowzayowza]

16. Hey, I'm perfect.

In twenty years of voting I have NEVER cast a ballot for federal office contributing to a win. FUCKING NEVER!!!! Listening to good people contemplate throwing away ANY opportunity, even if for an only moderately better path, MAKES ME SICK.

[drthais]

21. Hey, that's pretty wild

here's your big chance
if we can all agree that Bush and his buds are the anti-christ
(and I think we can)
then all we have to do is circle the wagons
I sincerely believe we will win this time

and no, my guy is out of the running (Clark, yea!)
but I am holding out for Secretary of Defense
or Sec of State -

[littlejoe]

23. I hope you have a big supply of barf bags. Kerry Rules

[yowzayowzayowza]

27. I overcame the ...

gag reflex many many moons ago... politics is kinda like a mortician and dead bodies. Ya just get used to the stench and do the best you can with the smell and the situation.

[littlejoe]

37. Good one!

[maxanne]

19. what happened

to that swansong, littlejoe?

[littlejoe]

24. Skinner changed the rules. I'm deeply touched .

[QC]

36. Yeah, it's the political counterpart to the madonna/whore complex.

And I'm heartily sick of having people who are trapped in that kind of "thinking" give me pompous lectures on what a dupe of the system I am and how brave and noble they are for voting for vanity candidates who have no more chance at winning than my Aunt Ethel.

[JackRiddler]

38. strawman construct; mischaracterization of opponents

& appeal to pretended ideal. 3 strikes.

[PurityOfEssence]

40. Ah yes: rational thought; for this you will be destroyed

Thanks for fighting the good fight, though...

[G_j]

43. perfect?

no one is.
I will vote for the Dem nominee but I sure as hell will push that candidate to be truthful and find something more solid than feet of clay.
My vote is not a mandate. And please don't tell me criticism of this candidate (who already has my vote) is amo for Karl Rove. If people can't handle critical discussion, I'm not sure what they are doing on a discussion board.
You can have my vote but not my silence.