Fear and loathing of Nader. Whoooo, DU has the willies.

[HFishbine]

What's with all the Nader hate suddenly? Is it because people may have to come to grips with the fact that the dems have once again failed to unify their natural constituency? Is it because dems will now have to face the fact that their front runners don't have progressive bona fides and suddenly, for a lot of people, ABB won't mean John Kery or John Edwards?

I can't believe that people are calling for protests to a Nader run. Goodness folks, this is a democracy. If you're concerned that Nader may offer something to voters that the Johns don't, it's not to late.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HFishbine]

3. Relax

If I'm lying, you have nothing to worry about.

[RafterMan]

6. But only

>people also have the right to question the lack of intelligence behind certain actions

But only people like you, right? Or is that not what HF is doing?

[tedoll78]

9. Well..

I do have the right to question him/her back. Especially when such decisions are based on lies. Again, check Kerry's progressive credentials.

And for the record, yes, I hate Nader. I will dance the happiest of dances when he rots in his grave.

[RafterMan]

22. Hey

I'll sign on with JK in a second.

But the Ban Nader stuff is ridiculous. If they can't span from left to center, the Democrats have to make a choice about which to court and which to drop. Boo hoo. Face up to it, make the cut somewhere and live with the consequences.

But grabbing for an extra 2% by browbeating someone out of the race is pretty pathetic.

[edzontar]

198. This sort of language is unacceptable and inappropriate.

I am not planning to vote for Nader and would prefer that he not run.

But we live in a democracy--at least in theory--and the man has a right to run if he wants to.

Further, Mr. Nader was a student of my father's in the 1960s and I have met and spoken to him, especially after my father passed away, and he was a most gracious and decent individual.

To come to a supposedly progressive and enlightened site and read this sort of trash is really, truly shocking and disgusting.

You do a profound disservice to Sen. Kerry posting trash like this.

[Dookus]

202. I've met Ralph Nader, too

and found at the time to be a decent guy.

But that was over 20 years ago. Since that time, he's become a raving egomaniac who puts his own personal agenda above the country's.

I will make a pilgrimage to dance on his grave, and I'll recycle a few beers on it, too.

Then I'll spit on it.

If I get festive enough, I'll puke on it, too.

How's that?

[edzontar]

204. As to the first part, you may have a point.

Regarding the second, I will let your words speak for themseves

[littlejoe]

58. Hey, if you want to place your hand on a hot stove,

knowing that it is hot, but you don't care, you are going to do it anyway then yes, people have a right to question your intelligence and judgement!

[RafterMan]

69. And

leaving your left flank open to an attack from Nader is unquestionably correct?

I'm just asking, just like HF. But this place does seem to be on the edge of panic.

[janx]

12. It's not as if this wasn't expected. Ralph has been waiting

in the annex, mulling it over.

As soon as Al From, the media, the old Dems, and others chose our candidate, Ralph was like a spider after a fly.

The time was ripe.

[kiahzero]

47. Others?

As soon as Al From, the media, the old Dems, and others chose our candidate, Ralph was like a spider after a fly.

Others, like... I dunno... THE VOTERS?

[janx]

75. There was a lot of influence going on way before the first

caucus, and there was messing around *within* that caucus.

The two top DLC guys were sending memos around to other Democrats. Two of the major Dem candidates conspired to take out another with the Osama ad, aided by other Dems.

There was more--all before the first caucus.

What our government can't seem to realize is that messing around with democracy can yield some disastrous results.

[kiahzero]

95. Any proof with those accusations?

I've heard a whole lot of claims, with no more than guilt-by-association as evidence, if that.

[janx]

101. I'm sorry. The first memos went around last fall.

You can try searching for Al From, DLC, Howard Dean. There were a couple of rounds--two different memos. But I'm tired and won't do a search for you. You're just going to have to believe it. Others on this board have seen them.

The same goes with the Osama ad. You can find the roots of that on this board. The fiscal origins of the ad rested with Toricelli, who was raising funds for Kerry; some ties to Geppy; and some funds from unions. This part was disclosed recently due to a February 2 disclosure deadline.

If I have a little more time tonight I'll try and find them, but I am being very honest with you, and I am no conspiracy theorist.

[kiahzero]

157. OK

The DLC doesn't like Dean. That I'll give you... that's what your memos prove.

The ad appears to be financed by people who support people other than Dean - this is not surprising. The people that attacked Dean support his rivals. This would be like a rich DUer running a nasty ad against Bush, and then the Republican Party blaming the Democrats for it.

I appreciate your legwork - I now understand more about this issue. Unfortunately for your argument, I interpret the evidence in a difference manner than you chose to.

You've definately got my respect for coming through with the reasons you feel the way you do, though. Thanks.

[janx]

165. Thank you for your polite response. I want only to point out

one more thing.

The Osama ad, coming from the people it did (in the Democratic party), was the most despicable (and well timed) piece of propaganda I have ever seen in any primary election.

It exploited the murder of 3,000 American citizens and made use of the perverse technique of fear-mongering just the way Bush did.

There was a lot else wrong with it, but I hope that you understand that.

Thanks again for your thoughtful response.

[janx]

121. Here is one of the memos. It appears to be the second one:

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=127&subid=900056&contentid=251690

DLC Memo

TO: Leading Democrats
FROM: Al From and Bruce Reed
SUBJECT: The Real Soul of the Democratic Party

[janx]

126. Here's some more from Al From (though not the first memo)--

I'm having trouble finding the first one, which was very brief and not as well known.

This is a Washington Post online discussion with Al From about Dean.

http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/03/sp_politics_from072903.htm

[janx]

129. Here's some more background from January:

http://www.pos.org/platform/file_retrieve.cfm?ID=483

[janx]

132. Some more here, about a column From wrote and other things:

http://centraloregonfordean.blogspot.com/2003_07_20_centraloregonfordean_archive.html

[janx]

144. Osama ad info:

http://www.jrnl.com/cfdocs/new/stories/pgfp0209200408.htm

[janx]

147. More Osama ad info (two links):

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/10/p...

Torricelli's PAC is raising money for Kerry.

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/contrib.asp?ID=N00000245&Cycle...

[MuseRider]

2. Well said. n/t

[mhr]

4. If Folks Want To Neutralize Nader, Nominate Kucinich

It really is that simple.

Seems many here don't understand the simplicity and poignancy of your post.

[Padraig18]

11. Not much of a choice.

As much as I respect DK, his chances in the GE would be about as good as mine. That option is essentially saying this: shoot yourself in the head with the .38, or with the 9 mm.

[mhr]

31. Your Opinion, Not Much Else, No Facts To Back It Up

eom

[Padraig18]

35. You're right-- it IS my opinion.

I would suggest his 2 delegates to date are a fairly substantial indicator of his likely performance in the GE.

[littlejoe]

62. Plenty of facts. Just look at the polls, look at percentage

of votes received. Enough said.

[snoochie]

66. Nobody has conducted the poll that asks which do you really agree with

Why is it so hard for some to admit that many, many Democrats prefer Kucinich but have been convinced that they can't have what they want, so they vote for the 'electable' candidate rather than the one that they agree with?

It's disgusting what's being done to democracy under the two party system.

[littlejoe]

88. You are absolutely right. I have to say that, between the

powers that be, and the media, a good man like Kucinich never stood a chance. I've put up with this for forty-five years, and I don't imagine much will change during the rest of my time here on earth.

[snoochie]

103. You don't think the amount of support he still has is amazing?

Considering the media blackout and constant negativity towards him?

I do. :) I'm encouraged. And I can't wait to hear him speak, and hear the audience respond, at the convention.

He's the only candidate that makes me proud to be a Democrat.

:loveya:

[littlejoe]

109. I think Kerry is a good man too, and I will be proud to cast

my vote for him.

[snoochie]

164. I think Kerry is a typical politician

I will have to hold my nose and take a long, hot shower with a scouring pad if I have to vote for this bush-lie-repeating, IWR-voting, waffling, 'Saddam brought this on himself' democrat.

[littlejoe]

169. It must be lonely on that righteous soapbox of yours.

[Dhalgren]

174. Oh, Snoochie's not so all alone.

There's a bunch of us up there. And the degree of righteousness is just a relative thing, isn't it?

[littlejoe]

181. Your piousness qualifies you to be a republican

[Dhalgren]

185. Oh, Joey,Joey,Joey...

Is that it? Your best shot? Look at your sig line Joey, I think your head's gettin' wet.

[snoochie]

I don't form my opinions based on their popularity

so I couldn't possibly care less if it were.

And no, it's not. :)

[union_maid]

5. Hating Nader is not so new for a lot of us

I've hated that son of a bitch since about October of 2000. Said then that if he helped Bush into the Whitehouse I'd hate him the rest of my life and he did and I will. No, it wasn't JUST him, but he helped and he knew better. A lot of the people who voted for him really didn't know better, but he's not a college kid and it wasn't his first time around the block. He shares responsibilty with the Bush administration for every misbegotten thing they've done since they got into office.

[HFishbine]

10. Really? Nader shares responsibility?

Did he vote for the IWR too? Damn him!

[union_maid]

16. Yes, in a way

He helped Bush into power. He helped discourage the young and idealistic from participating in the Democratic party. He knew what the BFEE were capable of and he told a lot of young people who didn't know any better that there was no difference and that was a huge lie. Huge. Everything these people have done is on his hands. Bush would have gone to war with or without that vote and the vote was never really in question anyway, but if Bush weren't in the Whitehouse, war with Iraq probably wouldn't have happened at all.

[tedoll78]

19. The Big Lie

Yep. "There's no difference.."

One must have a single-digit IQ to really believe this.

[HFishbine]

24. I respect your point of view

I just don't agree that we can hold Nader responsible for the Bush mis-actions while absolving our candidates of any responsibility. The war was no more inevitable than a Bush presidency.

[union_maid]

33. I understand, but..

He knew. He always knew what could happen and he went ahead and did what he did. If he was young himself I wouldn't feel so strongly. If he'd made more of an effort to appeal to other types of people, I wouldn't feel so strongly. But he hurt a lot of people. It's not just the war in Iraq. It's the evironment, the fiscal policy, all of it...Nader knew what that would be and he helped Bush. He doesn't have to live with the damage that caused in the way that most of us do, or that our children will. I really hate his hypocritical, pompous, self-righteous guts. Can't help it. It's not just the stands you make that count. It's the effect your actions have.

[The Magistrate]

37. Hogwash, Mr. Fishbine

Without Nader's earlier exercise in splinterist wrecking, the criminals of the '00 Coup would never have succeeded in taking power. That is a fact, and you may wriggle all you like against the responsibility of it, but it will do you not a damned bit of good.

If you are hunting for "enablers", fellow, you need look no farther than than this pile of fecal matter known as Ralph, and those who cast ballots for it.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[goobergunch]

48. Can you prove

that every Nader voter would have voted for Gore absent a Nader candidacy?

Perhaps some would have voted for Bush*, some another 3rd party, and some would have abstained altogether.

[Walt Starr]

51. That's the problem with the "Nader did it" mentality

It assumes Gore was automatically guaranteed the Nader votes, which is not the caase from every Nader voter I ever met.

[The Magistrate]

54. Dream On, Dear

Where do you think they came from, lad? The Republican Party faithful?

The alibis of the splinterist wreckers are tiresome in the extreme. It is understandable those who support such traitorous action would shy away from the fact of what they have done, but there is no reason whatever for anyone else to give a nano-second's countenance to such self-serving swill.

Those who vote for this wretch are knowing and willing tools of reaction, and must live with the name if they mean to do the damnable deed.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[HFishbine]

74. Where did they come from?

The question itself implies the arrogance of the assumption that their rightful owner was the democratic party. Where did they come from? Most Nader voters were independents. Were do independents come from? Neither the republican party faithful nor the democratic party faithful. I believe that's why they are called independents. What will the dems do this year to secure their votes?

[The Magistrate]

166. And The Great Majority Of Them, Dear

Would have cast ballots for the Democratic nominee, had this contemptible wrecker not put himself forward. He, and they, bear a great burden of responsibility for the current state of the country. You know that, you simply lack the intestinal fortitude to face up to the responsibility incurred by the exercise of fatuous naivite. Worse, you show every sign of being willing to repeat the exercise. You delight in calling Democratic Party office-holders responsible for the acts of the '00 Coup, and yet those who act on the line you are applauding are the real "enablers" of those reptiles, for they are responsible for their being in office. You cannot escape this fact, wriggle as you might; it is naked as a blade and all the world sees it.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[goobergunch]

94. I'm not psychic

I don't know where they came from - I only know that they thought Nader was a better candidate then both Gore and Bush*.

I would suggest that if Gore wanted Nader votes, he should have attempted to get them to believe that he was a better choice than Nader.

And kindly do not call me "dear". It's "Goobergunch" to you, sir.

[snoochie]

83. Exactly

I find the 'blame nader' crowd so annoying.

How about Gore and the DLC's unbelieveably idiotic plan to count only the votes in 'safe' precincts.

How about Gore not running as a centrist for most of the campaign?

How about we stop trying to scapegoat others for what is obviously a result of the democrats constantly shifting rightward?

[HFishbine]

57. You may call me Herky

If one wants to play the blame game, there are plenty of ways to lay culpability on others as easily as you have Nader.

Nader didn't decide the election. John Kerry-confirmed Antonin Scalia did.

The fact is there are hundreds of "If ______________, Bush wouldn't have won" scenarios. They are specious argument that avoid the real question of how well are the dems going to do THIS time in getting the votes of liberal progressives?

[The Magistrate]

70. More Nonsense, Mr. Fishbine

The division of the left and progressive vote between the splinterists and the Democratic Party accounted for the result of the election. Your attempt at citing some later speech in quarrel with that clear fact, evident to any observer in possession of his faculties at the time of the events, is pathetic.

The question, dear, is not the one you propose, but this: are "liberal progressives" going to show maturity and self-discipline, and that they value the greater good over their own self-indulgence, or are they going to sulk like two year olds denied a cherry lollipop?

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[HFishbine]

81. Oh, I have no doubt they will value the greater good

Just don't expect them to agree with you about what that is.

I'll further note that your flowery condecension avoids the question of how the dems will appeal to them -- other than the implication by example of brow beating and coercision.

[The Magistrate]

156. Oh, We Are In Agreement There, Dear

The greater good is what will bring the most immediate benefit to the people and the country, and that is clearly the eviction from office of the criminals of the '00 Coup. There is little doubt the overwhelming majority of left and progressive persons will understand this, and stand by the nominee of the Democratic Partry to that end, and reject with contempt the efforts of the splinterist wrecker to assist the worst elements of reaction in our polity. There will be only a tiny and infantile rag-tag of self-indulgent poseurs and faux radical pretenders, too naive and too self-centered to act responsibly, who will be willing to act as the knowing and willing tools of reaction while proclaiming they are the only true leftists in the land. They will be met in that effort by the united contempt of left and progressive persons throughout the country, and should their wrecking succeed, will bear the whole onus of what follows the reactionary triumph. There can be no question of this, and no argument sustained against it.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[diamondsoul]

177. What benefit, please, Sir?

Honestly, tell me the benefits, REAL benefits of Edwards or Kerry as opposed to Bush in the first Democratiic term after Bush is ousted. What will either of them do that will dramatically imrpove the situation we find ourselves in?

[diamondsoul]

196. Crickets. And if this doesn't say it all...n/t

[The Magistrate]

207. Now There Is An Original Thought, Ma'am

You will hear damned few crickets this time of year, even in the countryside. Or do you imagine anyone you care to reply to awaits nailed to the key-board with baited breath on the off chance you might drop a word or two here, so they can reply instantly as if to the call of a long absent lover?

Should the Democratic Party nominee be elected President, there will be no abrupt and huge change, and it would be nonsense to expect any such thing. If there is not also a change in control of the Congress, there will be distinct limits on what can be accomplished. What there will certainly be is a halt to further damage done by the criminals of the '00 Coup. There will be an end to the staffing of courts with reactionary ideologues. There will be some attempt, at least, to restore the fiscal health of the government. There will be some repair of our relations with the rest of the world.

Most important, perhaps, there will be a defeat dealt the rising tide of reaction, a demonstration that these reptiles are not the unstoppable wave of the future. This will affect the whole psyche of the country, in ways of benefit to left and progressive causes, and of detriment to the forces of cultural obscurantism.

You may attach no importance to breaking the impetus of a triumphant enemy, but it is essential to a long-term struggle. The insistance on immediate gratification is one of the problems afflicting the left purists: these dream of banquets, and in the dream, spurn bread that might actually come to hand. You will never see abrupt and sudden change: it does not come without resort to the gun in the direst of affliction, and then, it is seldom apparently change for the better, for a great many people.

Of course, the course the Naderites advocate will bring no abrupt change for the better, but only a continuation of the damage being done already. You may, if that course is followed, rely upon seeing an increasing depression of wages and scarcity of work, and a continuing destruction of the national fisc, which will inevitably lead to a destruction of the value of money. You may attach no value to preventing this, but it is, in my view, worth a great deal to prevent it.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Dhalgren]

178. Then, Madam, pray tell,

where fore your consternation over a Nader candidacy? It would seem that if he will be of such negligent import, your protestations are, as it were, baseless (I did not, Sweetness, say 'base').

[The Magistrate]

193. Contempt For Turn-Coats And Fifth Columnists, Fellow

Is natural to a man of fighting temper.

Little snakes are best stamped flat before they can grow.

Splinter factionalism is an abiding disease of the left, on which reactionary strategists count as an element towards their success. It must be over-come, in any manifestation, if there is ever to be real gain made by left and progressive elements in the political life of our country.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Dhalgren]

200. You speak as though there were some sort of valid

leftist movement within (somehow) the Democratic Party. There isn't. There is only those homeless progressives and leftists, who in this straight-jacketed, "two-party" system are used, abused, and taken for granted by the , at best, "centrist" Democrats. The "left" in this country is truely "splintered" and not in small part due to the sirens' song of Democratic promises and cheap talk. The left must form its own party and begin building - then and only then must we fear splintering orthe "tools of reaction".

[The Magistrate]

206. Good Luck, Dear

The isolation of what you consider the left stems at bottom from the inability of persons who value the purity of their emotional commitment to an outsider status above either the self-discipline needed to act strategically for success or the willingness to compromise for wider acceptance. These things are among the most important reasons the left has no mass support among the people of the country. There are others, but these will do for consideration and self-examination here. It is greater comfort to cast blame out on media manipulation and the like, but the fact is the people who like to think they constitute the left act in a consistently self-defeating manner, of which the attraction of Nader is merely the latest episode. You must have mass following to have a decisive positive influence on electoral politics, and until the sulking stops and self-criticism begins you will never achieve that.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[littlejoe]

68. Please get off of this IWR issue. It is being blown way out of

context. And no, I'm not a hawk. Just remember the hysteria of the times and pressure put on congress, not just by politicians, but by the citizens.

And since it was moot, since Bush was going to do what he wanted anyway, why does Kerry's vote bother you so much?

[MercutioATC]

111. Kerry's vote bothers me because it was based in political expediency, not

principle and he continues to try to justify it. Everybody is allowed to make mistakes, but it's bad judgement to swear that your past bad judgements were justified. THAT'S not the kind of "experience" I'm comfortable with.

[littlejoe]

136. If he was lied to, then what's your problem?

[MercutioATC]

167. My problem is that either Kerry lied or was helplessly naive.

1) He voted for the IWR because it was the publicly popular thing to do, or

2) He actually trusted a President of the opposition party who'd surrounded himself with an array of advisers the likes of which have not been seen since Nazi Germany to "tell the truth" and only wage war as a last resort.

...which is it?

[littlejoe]

182. That is your perception. Not mine

[snoochie]

188. Be serious

The National Intelligence Estimate said there was no imminent threat. That is the most comprehensive assessment of intellgence data we have.

Why would he back bush up on his lies about the WMD threats?

Other countries saw there was no threat.

Millions of people around the world, not insignificantly this includes many of Kerry's own constituents, but he decided to ignore the NIE, most of the rest of the world, and the people, and instead vote with bush?

[littlejoe]

78. Isn't it a terrible, terrible thing when you find out your

leaders have feet of clay and are less than perfect?

[Dhalgren]

183. Many of us, Joe, were involved in a flurry of letter writing

to these Congress persons, telling them that Bush was lying. Robert Byrd and Ted Kennedy and Dennis Kucinich spoke out strongly against this wreckless IWR and the pack of lies it was based on. Kerry, and others, chose to support Bush in this and turn their backs on the millions of people crying out for restraint. This is the central problem with Kerry's candidacy.

[papau]

20. agree - although hate is wrong word - disgusted with a sellout hero

of the progressive world who has sold out to Bush for an extra 5 minutes on the stage and a few bucks from the GOP for the 04 campaign that he will "convert" to personal use (this is legal so no problem that way - Nader just has the usual ethics of a sellout to the GOP - and at one time he was an inspiration to me)

[KC21304]

65. You have it exactly right. He was great on Phil Donahue.

I really think he is losing it. I'm glad to hear that Public Citizen is going to take his name off their letter head if he runs.

[littlejoe]

71. Isn't it just a terrible, terrible thing when you realize your leaders

have feet of clay and are less than perfect?

[LandOLincoln]

55. I can top that. I've hated the SOB since the late 60s

when it was already becoming obvious what he really was, as opposed to what he wanted people to believe he was.

Talking to a former (and very bitter) Raider a couple of times back then helped fan my loathing as well.


(edited for clarity)

[david_vincent]

7. Well said!

My feeble intellect can only grasp the simple idea that
a democracy should have a number of candidates representing
the whole political spectrum. It's messy. Feelings get hurt.
Alliances are formed and then broken. But it's democracy!
Two parties are patently insufficient to represent all
political viewpoints. Are we supposed to pretend that they
are?

[Eric J in MN]

26. More than feelings get hurt when Bush bombs countries.

More than feelings get hurt when Bush bombs countries.

No one is asking you to pretend that John Kerry represents your postion on most issues. Just to admit that John Kerry or George W. Bush will be taking the oath on Jan. 20 and to choose between them.

[mzmolly]

8. I don't like Nader, but I respect his right to run or anyones for that .

matter.

I also maintain my right to be critical of him as well ;) That's part of our democracy too, right?

I think he's a better Inde candidate than an GP candidate personally. Though I honestly don't think he'll garner the same votes he did in 00.

[Gman]

17. I don't respect a damn thing about Nader

the guy is a pompous arrogant bastard that refuses to accept responsibility for what he did to this country.

[janx]

23. He can only "do" something if people vote for him.

If guys like Al From hadn't involved themselves in this election, Nader would not have much of a potential base at all.

That's the only reason he's jumping in now. He thinks he sees his niche. Unfortunately, he may be right.

[Gman]

50. Bull, Nader is a no good rotten bastard

what else is there to say?

[janx]

56. I happen to agree with you.

But it still doesn't solve the problem, does it?

[Gman]

79. No it doesn't solve the problem

But Nader is still a no good rotten egotistical irresponsible bastard.

[mzmolly]

82. "rotten egotistical irresponsible bastards" are allowed to run for Prez

;) Damn! huh?

[janx]

87. Yeah! As a matter of fact--

they do it all the time! ;-)

[mzmolly]

104. Heh, you got that right!

:hi:

[ShimokitaJer]

189. Actually, I'm pretty sure it's a prerequisite for running for President.

Who the hell else would slog through the filth you have to go through to get the damn job?

[snoochie]

191. Kucinich

:7

[ShimokitaJer]

195. Good point. Maybe it's a prerequisite for winning the presidency

Kucinich was simply too progressive to get the support of the conservative party leadership, and not enough of a scumbag to fight dirty for it. Unfortunately, there is some truth to the idea that nice guys finish last.

[littlejoe]

91. Don't kid yourself. He did plenty to hurt this country.

[sallyseven]

40. Amen, Amen

You are absolutely right. Nader is just a rotten spoiler and I don;t want him to help bush back into the white house.

[Walt Starr]

13. The primaries were all about "electability"

If Kerry is so all fired up "electable" then third party runs should have no effect whatsoever.

If Kerry voters were lying to themselves about how "electable" Kerry really was, then it won't matter either because he's about to have his ass handed to him. It's a bit late now for buyer's remorse.

The anti-Nader worries are pretty indicative of bigger issues, IMO.

[Padraig18]

18. Yes.

All the 'jump on board now---we must have unity' threads have always been prettytransparent to me; most Kerry supporters are TERRIFIED that people will wake up and realize that they DO have a choice, and that dear JFK is not invulnerable OR inevitable. It's their biggest fear.

[mzmolly]

59. Agreed. Nader said he would run if... and he did...

We predicted it.

[janx]

85. The timing could not have been more perfect.

And it wasn't just the young greens and progressive lefties who voted for Nader last time.

Many independents voted for him as well. They were people who for one reason or another did not like Gore.

[meti57b]

14. what nader offers, is another four years of bush!

[Eric J in MN]

15. You think this is all a big joke? It's not funny.

You think this is all a big joke? It's not funny.

Of course, legally, Ralph Nader has the right to run.

But if he does, we will get 3 Republican Supreme Court justices who will be on the bench for the rest of the lives of some of us.

You can use joking words like "willies" but I don't find that funny.

Nader shouldn't run for President in 2004.

[papau]

25. I agree - our kids future is on the line - and Nader is pissing on

them and their kids.

[Walt Starr]

28. The only way Nader is a problem

is if Kerry isn't really "electable".

[KC21304]

76. I guess that would depend on the number of votes Nader would get, eh ?

I don't think anyone has said Kerry is going to win in a landslide. Sounds like you are back to ABK. Even Nader.

[Walt Starr]

89. I'm ABK all the way in the primaries

I'll vote for the ham sandwich with a (D) in the GE.

But counter my argument. If Kerry is truly "electable" Nader is not a problem.

[littlejoe]

97. You have a shot memory, walt. Just go back to 4 years ago.

And tell me that Al Gore wasn't electable. You know that he was. You know exactly what happened and why. Naiivete does not wear well on you, walt.

[Walt Starr]

110. You've left out something, this isn't four years ago

To be "electable" in 2004, the candidate had to be able to neutralize the Nader effect. After 2000, Nader was a guaranteed factor no matter what.

It would seem to me, many people miscalculated on what is and is not "electable" in 2004.

[littlejoe]

137. Do you make this stuff up as you go along?

[Walt Starr]

138. Nope, I'll tell you a little secret

I had long ago taken the Nader effect into account when I decided which of the ten candidates I considered the most electable.

It's not my fault if others were not schooled enough in the reality of 21st century politics to do the same.

[littlejoe]

171. Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back, walt.

The Nader factor has always been there, lurking in the shadows. No one forgot about him, as you allude.

[Walt Starr]

209. If that's true, then you should be yucking it up about how

he will have no effect because the candidate is eminently "electable".

[LandOLincoln]

77. Give it a rest. The VOTERS have decided Kerry is

electable, but no one is under any illusion that he--or John Edwards if he winds up as the nominee--is going to beat Dubya in a landslide. It's going to be very, very close and every single vote is going to matter. Every...single...one.

And if only half or a third of the 97,000 Nader votes in Florida had gone to Gore if Nader hadn't been running, there's no way Jebya & Cruella could have cooked the books enough to offset 30,000-48,000 votes, and the Supremes would never have been given the opportunity for a judicial coup d'etat.

But you go right ahead, vote your oh-so-holy "consciences." You're going to have to live with the consequences a hell of a lot longer than us "old Dems."

[Walt Starr]

92. I'm voting for the ham sandwich

that the Democratic Party is about to serve up, but if Kerry is really "electable" Nader is a non-issue.

I stand by that statement. If you are worried about Nader making any difference, it only proves Kerry was never "electable" to begin with because Nader had to be taken into account in the "electability equation".

[littlejoe]

100. By the way, walt. John Kerry is not a "ham sandwich" like you

have referred to numerous times. I, for one, and I'm sure others, even non-Kerry supporters would appreciate it if you would show respect.

[snoochie]

106. Respect?

Like the respect they show to democratic constituents when they vote with the republicans?

I think they are getting that respect.

[littlejoe]

114. And Kucinich has never, never , never voted with repugs?

Don't make me laugh.

[snoochie]

133. He did, and has since realized the error he made

Has kerry does as much?

Has edwards?

[Walt Starr]

113. Ahhhhh, I understand now

I looked at your profile and saw you joined in November of 2003 so you have no real clue about what ABB was all about when it first began on DU.

It goes back to "I'll vote for a Ham Sandwich if that's what the democrats choose to run". I believe it was Matcom who started that.

littlejoe, I give you the ham sandwich:

[littlejoe]

115. I'm not at all interested in what inside jokes may have occurred

here before I joined DU. Show some respect please.

[Walt Starr]

118. I'm giving all the respect I can

And I promise you, I'm voting for the Democratic Ham Sandwich.

[HFishbine]

125. There's a new hall monitor in town

And he's takin' ham sandwiches off the menu.

[Walt Starr]

127. Well, it goes back a loooooooong ways on DU

I'll still be voting for the Ham Sandwich over the smirking chimp.

:D

[littlejoe]

139. Boorish, walt. Not even in the realm of humor. Move on.

[Walt Starr]

141. Sure thing

LOOK, IT'S THE DLC!!!!

[littlejoe]

146. What is your trip, man? Why do seem so intent on pushing things?

Especially when all you have to offer are juvenile comments?

[Walt Starr]

149. My trip? I'm on a journey

to replace a Smirking Chimp with a Ham Sandwich.

[Paulie]

160. Can't argue with that!

Vote my conscience on March 16th, then the ham sandwich on Nov 2nd.

[littlejoe]

172. There are no ham sandwiches on the ballot, walt.

We don't live on the sandwich islands. I advise you to get help. Sandwiches are a food item. A sandwich is not a person.

[Walt Starr]

212. It looks to me like there will be a Ham Sandwich with a (D) after his name

on my ballot.

littlejoe, I give you the ham sandiwch with a (D):

[janx]

176. !!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[JVS]

205. In the spirit of ABB you should demand we get aboard or taste your steel

after all, it is the proper M.O. :-)

[littlejoe]

142. It is pretty easy to tell who is here for serious discussion, walt.

[Walt Starr]

143. Yep, it sure is

littlejoe, I give you our nominee:

[littlejoe]

148. You helped slice it, Walt. Now eat it!

[Walt Starr]

150. I told you, no matter what come November 2nd

the Ham Sandwich with a (D) after s name gets my vote.

There's no rule anywhere that says I have to like it.

[littlejoe]

173. You have made that abundantly clear walt. are you always so

repetitious? Please, walt, do you have anything new and exciting to say? I just can't wait to hear what it might possibly be.

Let's see.....I'll bet that you will have something to say about a ham sandwich.

Oh yeah.... You might also say something like, "He'll get my vote in November, but that's all!"

Is that about it, walt, old buddy?

[Walt Starr]

210. The Ham sandwich gets my vote!

The Ham sandwich gets my vote!
The Ham sandwich gets my vote!
The Ham sandwich gets my vote!
The Ham sandwich gets my vote!
The Ham sandwich gets my vote!
The Ham sandwich gets my vote!
The Ham sandwich gets my vote!
The Ham sandwich gets my vote!
The Ham sandwich gets my vote!

(hint: Maybe if my posts didn't get responses I wouldn't respond back)

[LandOLincoln]

168. I see you read my post carefully and absorbed it completely. <snerk>

[janx]

155. The voters have decided? In February?

This primary is a disaster. Seventy-five percent of the voters who are supposed to vote in this primary have not, and yet we have a "presumptive" (I think they mean presumed) nominee has been chosen.

That is not democracy.

Many of us have never voted for Nader--we were wise enough not to vote for him in 2000 and have no intention of doing so now.

This isn't a question of "old Dems" or "new Dems"--this is a matter of practicality and what happens when certain factions of the Democratic party shove their noses into the process when they have no business doing so, or when some Dems get so desperate in their campaigns that they thwart the democratic process itself.

It's not nice to fool democracy--not in 2000, and not now. The consequences are dire, and Nader's current entrance could not illustrate that better.

[snoochie]

190. THANK YOU

Geez, what's that old saying? Marry in haste, repent in leisure?

[littlejoe]

93. That is patently false,

[HFishbine]

32. You realize

that you are effectively arguing for the disenfranchisement of any voters who may prefer Nader?

I'll tell you what isn't funny. What isn't funny is the way the front runners (each on his own issues) have only given lip service to progressive values. What isn't funny is that neither of the front runners have yet to contend in any menaingful way, with the millions of voters who marched against the war. Here's your joke, the democratic party is making the same mistake it made in 2002 -- thinking it can be barely distinguishable from Bush on a few major issues and still expect to win. That's the joke and Nader is the punchline.

[Walt Starr]

41. TRUTHALERT!!! TRUTHALERT!!!!

Shhhhhh, people aren't supposed to be told the punchline before they get the joke!

[janx]

44. And with jokes and punchlines--as we all know--

timing is everything.

Ralphie is timing it right.

[CabalBuster]

53. What's with all these fear?

If Kerry is really the true progressive he proclaims to be...why are Kerry supporters all of the sudden feeling threatened by Nader? Because he may steal some progressive votes away from Kerry? No one with a clear conscience will succumb to the fear mongering of the democratic party cabal (exemplified in ABB) in order to vote for Kerry. I say to Kerry "bring it on", if you think you stand for progressive principles you can fight for the presidency next to Nader and outshine him. The fear factor here is very telling. The emperor has no clothes.

[RIindependent]

21. Nader is egocentric. He should find another Corvair to fight!

I have talked to some Nader supporters from the 2k elections and all of them have said that their vote is now to important to waste on someone that does not have a chance at winning or making a difference. They also knew their vote was safe in a demo state. NOW they will vote ABB! This time around, Nader ain't got it!!!!!!

[Maddy McCall]

27. LOL @ Corvair comment!

The supporters I know from the 2K election DEEPLY regret their votes now and will also vote for the Dem nominee.

[Dhalgren]

192. Then it doesn't matter if Nader runs, right?

If Kerry is a big progressive and no one is going to vote for Nader, then who cares if he runs? A whole lot of protestin' goin' on if nobody's worried...

[Thistle42]

29. If he does run...

I predict he will not have great influence on the electorate. He has marginalized himself by his arrogance and total denial of what has happened to the US with the Bush Admins wild ride toward the FAR RIGHT. I am not blaming him for the 2000 election results...the media along with a late responding Gore campaign contributed to a raucus ending that only a banana republic could imagine. I would admonish him not to denigrate Kerry in his run against Bush. This DLC crap is just too much for this long time liberal originally from Minnesota to take. Kerry is not DLC...he is a liberal and I am proud to support him.

[janx]

34. Al From pushed for the Dean ouster pretty heavily.

I think that in light of the current situation, that was a very big mistake.

[The Magistrate]

30. Loathing, Mr. Fishbine, Not Fear

Nader is contemptible, and ought to excite nothing but disgust in any person who is serious about left and progressive causes. He has done more to harm these than most any open reactionary you could name. Concerted protest is a proper response to this vile wrecker, and it is exactly what he, and any who support him, ought to meet. He is a willing tool of reaction, and any who support him or trumpet his cause are the same, for that is the only real effect their actions could have, and they are not ignorant of that fact. Everyone with intelligence to cross at corners on the green knows that in the present circumstances, a vote for this reptile is a vote for the criminals of the '00 Coup, and those who urge such a vote must be held to face that fact, and held responsible for the material support they will lend to the worst elements of reaction in our polity.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[RIindependent]

36. Right on Magistrate!!!!

[HFishbine]

45. You disappoint me, Sir

Discard the ad hominem attacks and your post is as empty as Bush's promise to be a uniter.

[The Magistrate]

64. That Will Be Borne Up Under Somehow, Mr. Fishbine

The reptile deserves, and will receive, attack. He, and any who support him at this time, are knowing and willing tools of reaction. That is a simple fact, that those who mean to support this pustule cannot shy free from no matter how they wriggle.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[HFishbine]

90. It seems quite clear to me

That the ABB mentality is the one that's reactionary.

[The Magistrate]

179. No One Is Calling You A Reactionary, Dear

You are a left-deviationist tool of reaction; that is the proper name, and quite a different kettle of fish than a reactionary.

Those who recognize that the worst elements of reaction must be broken from office through Popular Front are the fighters against reaction. You have declared your intention to absent yourself from that fight, and even to cheer the triumph of reaction, should that be the consequence of many following your left-deviationist line, through the delusory hope that your left splinter will somehow come into a position of leadership through that treason to the fight against reaction. That will not occur, of course. But in the hope of it, you are willing to act to the benefit of the worst reactionary elements, and become in effect their tool. This is the natural product of unthinking zeal and rigid idealism being adopted as the guides to action in political matters. They are flaws that make a person useless for serious political work.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[goobergunch]

46. Given that a vote for X is a vote for X

What exactly has Nader done?

I just have this concept that candidates have to earn their votes....

[kerry-is-my-prez]

38. I dislike him because he is a "phony" and a Narcissistic egotist

The only party he ever belonged to was the Republican Party. He never joined either the Green Party and has never been a Democrat either.

[snoochie]

39. Dissonance

How can this be?

Bush is a disaster. His approval numbers are dropping steadily. He's being called on lies. He's having to reneg on his jobs claims.

What are mainstream Dems so scared of?

How can it be that people are simultaneously confident about and overwhelmingly insecure about Kerry's chances of beating bush?

I think a lot of Dems need some serious therapy.

:crazy:

[youngred]

42. Not sudden

its a fight that has been going on from 2000 through to middle of 2003. It only stopped so we could fight the candidate wars. His announcement just made it restart

[InhaleToTheChief]

43. Unrepentant Nader Voter

All you folks who say that every Nader voter didn't know what he or she was doing and that we all contributed to Bush being in the White House understand the Electoral College, right? The only Nader voters who had that sort of impact were the ones in Florida and a handful of other states...and Gore won Florida anyway, so I'd direct that anger at the SCOTUS.

I voted proudly for Nader in 2000 here in California. And had every California Nader voter voted Gore instead, we'd still have this criminal group of thugs in the WH.

I knew exactly what I was doing. It becomes increasingly clear that sooner (not later), we need a progressive third party in this country, and stuff like the DLC financing anti-Dean ads only drives that movement further along.

In safe states, a vote for Nader is most certainly not a vote for Bush, and it's idiocy to say otherwise. It's a vote for change that must certainly come, if we're ever to stop these endless lesser-of-two-evils debates every election cycle.

[The Magistrate]

49. There Are No Safe States, Dear

There are only states the enemy is little less likely to win. Victory cannot come, anywhere, by too wide a margin.

Those who vote for Nader lend material assistance to the worst elements of reaction in our polity, and are responsible for the consequences of that assistance. They may protest they act out of left zeal all they please: they are in fact knowing tools of reaction. There are no excuses in the crisis facing our people and our country and the world.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Walt Starr]

63. Rhetorical crap notwithstanding

there are very few states where any Democratic voter actually stands a chance of making a difference of any sort in the final outcome of the 2004 election.

The same held true in 2000.

[InhaleToTheChief]

72. What of the need for a true progressive party?

To an extent I am playing Devil's advocate. I will most likely be voting for the Democrat this year. But I do feel strongly that a truly progressive third party is becoming increasingly necessary in this country. Most likely, that will happen at the local and state levels, as with the near victory of a Green candidate for mayor in San Francisco, and not via a presidential bid.

I respect your point of view, Magistrate, and have read a lot of your posts. But I have never seen you acknowledge the roots of what drives the Nader-voters. Not a reactionary motivation, but a desire to break free of a system that mandates we vote for the lesser of two evils or be called traitor by the rest of the left...a system that forces us to vote for an ever-rightward-drifting party that increasingly produces corporate-financed conservative candidates.

In order to stop that rightward drift, we're probably going to have to vote for people who are not in the Democratic party, if only to pull the party in a more progressive direction.

[poskonig]

73. We'll have rightward drift for 40 years

if Bush gets his SC nominees. The courts matter.

[HFishbine]

96. Don't expect

your concerns to be given any credence. By marginalizing voters like you with insults and name-calling, the dems can avoid facing your concerns head on.

[snoochie]

98. So you don't think Texas is a safe state to vote green?

:eyes:

[papau]

61. DU link below gives some interesting Nader facts

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=371502

[RIindependent]

80. This is not the time to experiment with the USA!!!

I know where you are coming from and I agree somewhat with you but, there is a time for everything and this is not the time to be idealogical. Our county is hurting, therefore we, the ones that love democracy, need every vote. Sending a message is a good thing but Nader is the wrong messenger.

[InhaleToTheChief]

84. I agree RI

100% - this is not the time or place. We need every vote if only to show America and the world how opposed to Bush we are.

And Nader is not the messenger, although I think the outright contempt some people here display toward a man who has done so much in his life for progressive causes is unwarranted. The man deserves respect.

I wish he would just endorse DK. Seems like a simple and elegant solve.

[RIindependent]

86. Welcome to DU Unrepentant Nader Voter

Keep posting

[littlejoe]

52. We are afraid, and we have every right to be. But not for your

stated reasons. Nader has nothing to offer. He is not a politician, and let me tell you, THAT IS IMPORTANT!

You wouldn't want your 10 year old to play mechanic on your car. You wouldn't want the winner of the pillsbury bake-off pitching the 7th game of the world series. You wouldn't want your barber giving you a colonoscopy.

Leave politics to the professionals. It is an intricate, sometimes dirty game, not for the inexperienced or the faint of heart.

Remember this...sometimes people will cut off their nose to spite their face.

In reality, and we have recent history to back this up, all he will do is disillusion a lot of people, and in the end throw the election to Bush.

That is all....

[poskonig]

60. I am ashamed I voted for Nader in 2000.

It was my first presidential election, and I didn't listen to the older liberals who told me how the Republicans are in office. I also put too much importance on secondary issues like the death penalty and the war on drugs while ignoring clear differences on international, domestic, economic, and social issues.

You can bank on me voting Democratic in 2004.

[kaitykaity]

67. An insult to DUers everywhere.

Like we'd really be scared of Ralph's :puke: 3%. Bwahahahahahahahahaha.

Maybe we are just marvelling at the hubris of a guy who isn't even a part of his previous party who thinks he has any place at the table other than that of the (ooohhhhh don't say it!!!) spoiler.

Disgust? Yes. Fear? Not in this lifetime.

[littlejoe]

102. three percent could swing an election.

[kaitykaity]

122. Yeah, I think it already did.

Oh, but according to Ralphie, he had NOTHING to do with that.
:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke: If he makes us go through this again . . . somebody will pinch his head off in the afterlife. The Democrats have to toe Ralphie's line or he'll punish them by making them win at a 55% clip.

Whoo hooo, way to slice off his own nose to spite his face. I guess the past three plus years haven't been bad enough for Good Citizen Ralphie.

[janx]

215. That's what a lot of people

said in 2000.

[absyntheNsugar]

99. KERRY IS A LIBERAL

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=370650

Read. Learn. Vote Kerry in November. Vote your conscience in the primary.

[Dhalgren]

199. Thank you for the permission.

I think that it is the way that the Democratic party feels it owns your vote that really irks most leftists. Most of us will vote for "the yellow dog" come Nov., so jesus folks chill...

[Democat]

105. This is Democratic Underground, Nader & Bush are not Democrats

Ralph Nader and George W. Bush are both working toward the same goal - to make sure that Republicans control the White House for another four years.

If you support Bush, then go ahead and vote for him or his ally Ralph Nader. Why bother us here at Democratic Underground?

We are fighting for the Democrats, unlike Bush and Nader.

[Walt Starr]

107. Where did he say anything about voting for Nader?

HFishbine is only questioning why anybody is up in arms about Nader getting into the race. It's a valid point. The primaries were supposed to be about electability but apparently nobody believes the nominee apparent is really electable or else they'd just be laughing about Nader throwing his worn out hat in the ring.

[snoochie]

108. Best post in the thread

I don't really see where all the confusion came from, really. Well, actually I do. Easier to focus on boogeymen than face ugly truths about the electability of a 'me too just not as much' dem.

[Tinoire]

116. Never mind what he said Walt. The mere presence of the word

Green or the name Nader is enough to send some into an absolute tizzy.

And to think... they could have met progressives halfway with Dean- a fiscal conservative, moderate, pro-Israel, established Democrat :shrug:

[littlejoe]

117. Apparently, you have the market cornered on the word

"apparently".

[HFishbine]

120. Thanks Walt. You put the words right in my mouth.

Quite well I might add. I won't be voting for Ralph Nader, I'm almost completely certain. I was indeed trying to raise the question of why DU is in such a tizzy. Either our front runners are not as broadly appealing as we might have once thought, in which case the concern is justified and there is time to make a course correction, or they are "electable" and the Nader hubbub is mush ado about nothing.

[union_maid]

123. The election will be about 50/50

It would be shocking if it were otherwise. It's not much ado about nothing. Far from it. We need every vote possible to remove him from office. The only vote to remove Bush is a vote for the Democratic nominee.

[Walt Starr]

124. Then "electability" as an issue in the primaries

was just so much bullshit.

[union_maid]

128. Perhaps we're defining electability differently

What do you think it means?

[Walt Starr]

130. I'm no scholar by any means but my best guess would be

the ability to be elected.

If those who were calculating who was most electable failed to take Nader into account in their calculations, I am not to blame.

I was absolutely taking the Nader factor into account when I chose which candidate I considered most electable.

[union_maid]

145. Sadly, Nader is not the only factor

If he were, then Kucinich would be the electable candidate and most of us would probably be very happy if that were the case. The even sadder truth is that Bush is the much bigger factor. There are many more voters who are going to be deciding between the Democratic nominee and Bush than the Democratic nominee and Nader. That the Democratic candidate will be attacked by both of them is a disadvantage for any of them.

[Walt Starr]

151. He definitely was not the only factor I took into account

but I did taake the Nader effect into account when I chose what I considered the most electable candidate (hint, his first name did not begin with a "J").

[littlejoe]

152. No one underestimated the so called "Nader Factor, walt.

It's always been there.

[Walt Starr]

154. Then I guess all tat talk about "electability" was just a scam?

That's the only conclusion I can draw because otherwise, everybody would be laughing that the narcissistic fool was throwing his worn out hat into the ring.

[littlejoe]

184. No scam walt. The Nader factor has always been there.

You honestly think the candidates haven't considered this, walt?

[Walt Starr]

213. Then obviously those who made the claim that Kerry is "electable"

were blowing bullshit out their asses because they are all concerned now that Nader will fuck his "electability".

[HFishbine]

131. I doubt your assumption

Again, wiht respect, but it was 50/50 last time. Am I to believe that, after all of Bush's screw ups, that there will be just as many republicans willing to vote for him as last time; or that there will be no voters who sat out the election last time and are going to make damn sure to vote this time? I don't think it's going to be close.

[diamondsoul]

186. If that's the case and so many want Nader out-

there's a simple solution to the problem. Nominate Kucinich. Nader will withdraw immediately.

[Tinoire]

112. DLC getting scared & making noise. That's all.

Yet another proof that there's little interest in democracy or progress from a certain quarter.

[Walt Starr]

119. What it proves to me

is "electability" was a bullshit argument.

[snoochie]

134. Where did the 'electability' meme come from this primary season?

And why were so many so willing to follow along?

[Walt Starr]

135. I'm not certain

but I believe the DLC trotted it out.

[littlejoe]

153. How so, walt?

[Walt Starr]

158. If Kerry was so "electable"

Nobody would give a shit that Nader drug his tired ass out to run again.

In fact. folks would be yucking it up but good!

[janx]

159. Of course it was. It was a term coined by those who wanted

one or two of the Dem primary candidates to emerge.

You couldn't find a vaguer term with which to do so. The irony (and stupidity?) is staggering.

[Tinoire]

170. Lol... Well they sure as hell found an even vaguer slogan - "ABB"

You really have to hand it to the boys- misunderstimating the determination of Progressive Democrats all the way.

[janx]

175. You have a point there, Tinoire!

We all know we have to get the monster out of the kitchen--but those able to shape the appearances of things like to do so well before we decide how to do so...whether or not some people like me actually get a voice in things at all due to the nature of this compacted primary.

They upend democracy, and what do they get?

The bullfrog's back on the lilypad.

[littlejoe]

187. Bullshit walt? I don't think so.

[Walt Starr]

211. Bullshit littlejoe? ABSOFUCKINLUTELY!

Otherwise Nader would be meaningless and Kerry supporters would be yucking it up about how Nader entering the race is the biggest joke ever.

[David Dunham]

140. Nader just wants attention. He's a lonely, pathetic old man.

He doesn't care about the consequences of his actions.

[janx]

161. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to say about a misunderstood man

who lives down the street.

But it's not quite enough given the current situation.

[David Dunham]

163. Nader is very anti-Democratic. He's Bush's lap dog, just like Blair.

[janx]

180. No, Nader's not a lap dog.

He's more like the joker in the deck of cards. You know he's in there--and statistically you know he's going to show up.

[mdmc]

162. post 141 giving attention to Nader

instead of brainstorming ways to strengthen the Democratic Party.

I'll vote in NY for Nader, Kucinich in the primary.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

I'm not scared of Nader

He is irrelevent in this election.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

194. I'm not scared of Nader

He is irrelevent in this election.

[Goldberg]

197. Nader would do nothing but ruin it for the Democrats...

if he runs. The man won't get elected to office. He won't get any amount of votes he needs to get govt. money. Why would this man run? He has nothing to prove. He already proves he's a jerk. He did steal votes from Gore in 2000.

If Nader were to run, say hello to another four years of Bush...:grr:

[Dhalgren]

201. If he "won't get any amount of votes",

who cares if he runs? I mean, so what? Let him run, he won't get any votes - right?

[John_H]

203. Plenty of hate. No fear.

You know, it's almost amusing the folks on the far, far left are indignant about the vitriol most Dems harbor in their hearts for Nader, since hate is primary emotion you all sling around most regularly. You hate the DLC (a moderately powerful glorified think tank) the DNC (a comparatively liberal and mostly innefectual employer of 25 year olds) John Kerry (a guy who, after saving a couple of lives in combar, saved a few thousand more by helping end the Viet Nam war) and a host of other things that don't seem to suit your self-righteous fancies.

So, my friends, I guess you'll just have to come to grips with the fact that you don't have the hate market cornered.

I, for one, despise a guy who lied to America when he said there was no difference between Gore and Chimp to disasterous effect, who pays lip service to labor except when the laborers are trying to get a fare shake from him in which case he hammers them as viciously as any 1915 robber baron, who profiteers from the same companies he vilifies, who is willing to enable the orst administration in history to satisfy his craving for power, and who does it with an arrogant smirk.

You go ahead and hate the only people who can bring Bush's reign of terror to an end and just deal with the fact that I hate a guy who's hell bent on doing eberything he can to provide him with another four years of power.

[Piperay]

208. I have no fear of nader...only complete

and total loathing toward the egotist. :puke:

[whirlygigspin]

214. I bet you miss Dean now

Nader Nader Nader