"Witch"

[Chovexani]

"Witch" has always been used as a method of silencing women of power. It's like "dyke" in a way. Any time a woman has power of any kind, is aggressive and does what she has to (or basically behaves in a fashion that is lauded when men do it), she gets called a witch. It says something about our society that we are so afraid of independent, powerful women that we have to constantly cut them down with the "W" word, to put them in their place. Far be it from me to defend HRC, but I find the language used about her interesting--people have referred to her "cackle" a lot and it bothers me. It's especially disturbing when you take into account the popular perception of what a witch is--evil, frightening, conniving, ugly, makes pacts with the Devil, etc. This is what most people mean when they say "witch".

This is why many Wiccan and Pagan women, particularly Dianics, have been trying to reclaim the word. This is why I use it to describe myself (as an aside, my screen name is a Romani word derived from Armenian that means "witch"). It's a way to reclaim the notion of women's power. The healer, the cunning woman, the counselor--this is what the "witch" really is.

One thing to ask yourself: why is one of the only folkloric images of a powerful woman one that is scary?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. Witch Is A Pejorative Word For A Woman As Is The Noun It Rhymes With

DSB

[Chovexani]

6. Isn't it interesting that the two are synonymous?

People substitute "witch" when "bitch" is considered too vulgar and they don't want to swear. In some respects it's a play on words, but I think it's telling that they're equivalent to most people.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. That's Why Barbara Bush Called Geraldine Ferraro A Four Million Dollar Word Which Rhymes With Witch

DSB

[ruggerson]

2. Bravo

everyone should read this.

K/R

[terrya]

3. Thank you for your perspective

I know, some here think this whole thing about SNL last night is silly.

Your comments are interesting. Unfortunately, I don't know very much about Wiccans. So, your comments about Wiccan women reclaiming the word "witch" are informative.

Thanks again.

[Chovexani]

12. It's an ongoing debate

Witch is used for both male and female practitioners of the Craft ("warlock" is actually a pejorative that means "oath-breaker", and is very offensive), but some folks shy away from it because of the negative connotations.

You could compare it to the debates about the term queer in the GLBT community, except that oddly it seems to be newer Wiccans who have a problem with it, with the old guard pressing the reclamation of the word (a broad generalization, but it is generally true).

[Hekate]

4. Right you are. Quickly, before the HRC-flamers start, the "cackle" thing bothers me a LOT.

It particularly bugs me that it's female commentators that seemed to really relish going on and on about the laugh being a "cackle." Sometimes sisterhood is not only not powerful, it is non-existent.

Hekate
(and you know who SHE is)

[greenman3610]

5. I enjoyed the SNL sketch, but

I think this is the kind of thing you will be seeing
more of - the belittlement and ridicule of a strong woman.
They can't call her a Bitch, so they did a little work-around.

[goodgd_yall]

14. Yes

What they do in the "children's hours" on TV---the work-around.

[KittyWampus]

7. In the context of a comedy skit, your commentary has little relevance.

[Harper_is_Bush]

10. But in the context of all the posters saying "what's wrong with calling a woman a witch?" it does.

[Solon]

11. Exactly, in the case of Hillary, its sexist and bigoted, in a general sense, it depends. n/t

[KittyWampus]

Most DU'ers are reactioning to the SNL skit. But then if you get off on being perpetually offended

life will constantly give you opportunities for outrage.

[goodgd_yall]

15. I can be offended without being obsessed n/t

[ruggerson]

16. I'd rather be attuned to the bigoted messages going out

under the pretext of being something else, than be dulled and desensitized to it.

[Chovexani]

22. This is not about being "perpetually offended"

Seems to me that the people who are perpetually offended are the ones who flip their shit if people even stop to ask questions about why people say things.

[Harper_is_Bush]

25. Oh yes, like all looney leftwingers I'm "perpetually offended".

I'm just annoyed by all the topics by people pretending to be dumb today...pretending they don't even understand that there is any negative connotation in calling a woman a "witch". I mean, come on...it's popular halloween costume! Duh.

[ruggerson]

13. They had Obama himself on the show

so this was also political commentary/humor.

Not just "a comedy skit."

[Chovexani]

19. This post is NOT about the SNL skit.

I can't speak on the skit because I didn't see it (I haven't had a TV since I moved). It was sparked by the discussion on the skit.

[KittyWampus]

36. Well, it does then become an interesting discussion along with the words history.

A this point, I'd say the word witch has little to no negative power to it.

I've too many friends who are outright witches.

In the context of serious political discussion, I'd agree witch was offensive.

But in the context of SNL skits, it's par for the course.

My perspective- SNL sucks and is very rarely funny anymore.

[Chovexani]

41. Well, that is one thing we can agree on

SNL hasn't been funny in years. :P

I want to believe the word doesn't have negative power anymore, that we (meaning Witches) accomplished what so many have set out to do (Z. Budapest and others), but I think there's a long way to go.

People will stop seeing it as a bad thing as more of us stand up to reclaim it.

[Solon]

8. Not just Pagan women....

Sounds weird I know, but my Mom, Aunt, and Grandmother are Witches, in the herbalist, ceremonial variety, of Celtic traditions, though, as far as religion goes, they are Catholic.

[goodgd_yall]

18. Hey

Nice convergence of beliefs. I think that is wonderful.

[Solon]

24. To be honest, I don't know where they got the beliefs, or practices...

Its far different than my own experience, being a male, I was never able to observe them performing magic, but, as far as day to day stuff, just regular, and in my Grandmother's case, churchgoing, Catholics. Its not related to Wicca or even any other Ceremonial Magical system I've ever come across. I think, and I'm only speculating, because I'm not supposed to ask, but its more like a "Wise Woman's" Craft, with no theological component.

[Chovexani]

23. That is cool.

I have a long tradition of root-working in my family but they'd slap you silly if you called them witches...they were good Baptists. :)

[Solon]

26. My family was always big on gardens...

small little plots in the yards, yet the plants grow to be HUGE. My grandmother grows corn on a plot of land, in two rows, that's no more than 20 feed long, and maybe 10 wide, on soil that's mostly clay, and yet they grow well over 8 feet tall. Don't ask me how she does it, but damn that's big. Other plants, cabbage, tomatoes, etc. are also grown on that same plot of land.

Oh, BTW, I'm one of those Wiccans you can call a Witch if you want. :)

[Chovexani]

28. I haven't considered myself Wiccan in a few years

I will say I am if asked, for simplicity's sake, but I'm more of an eclectic Pagan these days (I've been gravitating more toward Indo-Paganism lately).

I've always identified with the Witch word though. The old magickal axiom that words have power is very true, and that word is very powerful. Reclaiming it is an act of healing magick, IMO.

[Solon]

29. I consider myself an Eclectic Wiccan...

Though, to be honest, I believe my beliefs are diverging quite a bit recently, not so much the Rede, the simplified one sentence version, obviously, but things like the Threefold Law. I'm a strong Polytheist myself, I don't go into that whole "All Gods are one God, All Goddesses are one Goddess" thing, mostly because it doesn't make much sense to me. Balance is perhaps most important in my theology and ritual.

[Chovexani]

31. Oh, word

I've never believed that "All Gods are one God, All Goddesses are one Goddess" stuff. It doesn't make sense to me at all either. But I'm not one of those Jungian type Pagans either--the deities are real, not just archetypes, and they're not plug-n-play interchangeable.

Their energies and personalities are just so vastly different...I think ultimately they all come from the same source (sort of like how humans are all descended from Mitochondrial Eve), but that doesn't make them all one being.

[Solon]

33. I agree with that...

I think of the source of the Gods as something akin to the proverbial primordial ooze that all life came from. Not a being, but a type of source, like a background energy or something. Not only that, but I think it also interconnects with all life in the Universe. OK, let's just take a moment and realize that we are hijacking your thread to discuss theology of all things! Still cool though. Its nice to talk about this stuff without the snark we sometimes get.

[Chovexani]

35. LOL!

It's not the first time I hijacked my own thread! :crazy:

It's all good, though. :hi:

[Solon]

38. Yeah, I have that habit too...

Its just interesting the directions conversations go that diverge from the OP.

[MLFerrell]

9. How about "disgusting pig"?

Or does that too offend your delicate sensibilities?

[terrya]

17. Jesus...

"Delicate sensibilities". How wonderfully insightful. :eyes:

This isn;t confined to some juvenile skit on SNL. There is a kneejerk attitude of some to think of a powerful woman as a "witch". I appreciated the OP's perspective on the subject.

And if Senator Clinton is the nominee, expect this kind of shit from the other side.

[Chovexani]

20. My sensibilities are not delicate, thanks.

But I'm sorry if a discussion about how language reflects society's attitudes offends you.

Oh, wait, no I'm not.

[Guaranteed]

49. Or "corporate whore"?

"Whore" IS typically aimed at women. But can we make an exception for the above?

[dipsydoodle]

21. WTF

is SNL ?

[Chovexani]

27. Saturday Night Live

A sketch comedy show that used to be brilliantly funny but has been running on fumes for going on 10 years.

[dipsydoodle]

30. We got that in the UK in the '70's

I'd have thought the whole concept was bit tired by now. Thanks for letting me know anyway.

[FloridaJudy]

32. Haven't watched it in years.

It's nice to know I haven't missed anything.

And "witch" is a bit like the "n-word": okay if used by two members of the category to each other if neither finds it offensive, but NOT something the mainstream patriarchy should indulge in to put people down. A fellow Goddess worshiper gets to call me a witch. Rudy Giuliani doesn't.

[Chovexani]

34. You got it.

:hi:

[Solon]

39. I would never use Witch as a derogatory term, I wasn't raised that way. n/t

[sniffa]

40. patriarchy?

oh Lord. :puke:

i Love DU.

[YOY]

52. A humorless show that basically tells idiots what is funny

It used to be brilliant and have improvised comedy some of which has become staple in American culture. It has launched the comedic careers of Eddie Murphy, Dan Akroyd, John Belushi (RIP), Chris Rock, and Mike Meyers to name a few. (Also a few duds that were hoisted on us as the paramounts of funny like Joe "majorly on 'roids" Piscapo, Rob "just kill me now" Schnider, Dennis "Neocon cokehead" Miller, and Jimmy "stop laughing at your own stupid jokes" Fallon.)

Pundit Al Franken used to be a semi-regular on the show. He wasn't as overt back then.

Now it's just...well, not funny. All political stances aside it's not funny. It tries still to launch careers of many of it's alumni but they're not funny. Partially due to hack writing (just because the guy went to Harvard doesn't mean he can write comedy) and poor talent scouting...Horatio Sanz was the best you could do??? A 10+ minute sketch about how the girl playing Hermoine Granger in Harry Potter is becoming a hottie???

They also have live music from decent artists...

Nobody really watches it anymore save highschoolers and they tend to grow out of it quickley.

[bigwillq]

42. Don't they make fun of everyone

on that show? Even call them names? :shrug:

I didn't think much of that when I watched it last night. It's a sketch show. It wasn't particularly funny but I didn't see it as offensive.

[Chovexani]

43. Yeah, which is why I'm not indicting the skit on its own merits

For starters, I didn't even see it, and it's a pet peeve of mine when people bash something without actually having seen/read it.

I posted this response to you in another thread, but I'm lazy and will just C/P it.

These things don't exist in a vacuum. This is why, as a feminist and an unabashed pop culture junkie, I like to analyze these things. Comedy in particular reflects our values as a culture more often than not.

I think the question of why we regard certain things as funny is a fascinating one.

[bigwillq]

44. You should check it out

and then tell me what you think. I think there was a thread here in GDP that showed the clip. I saw it live last night and just thought of it as Halloween skit. Again, didn't think it was very funny, the whole skit, but didn't find it offensive.

[HuffleClaw]

45. *yawn* n/t

[Chovexani]

46. Cover your mouth

It's rude.

[Prophet 451]

47. "why is one of the only folkloric images of a powerful woman one that is scary?"

Because you're limiting it to Western folklore?

[Chovexani]

50. I limited it to that for a reason

As a Western society our particular bigotries and weird ass set of taboos are informed for the most part, by Western mythology.

[CyberPieHole]

48. Wonderful post. Kick and recommend.

Spot on analysis.:applause:

[demigoddess]

51. the cackle remarks bothered me too. And then they followed it up with remarks

about her neckline. Years ago they made fun of her for not being feminine enough and tried to make people think she was lesbian. But you notice how they treated one of their own, Elizabeth Dole, when she ran for president. Prior to her actually running the line in the repub party was that she was the most qualified woman in the country, but the moment she actually ran they snubbed real good, even her husband donated to another candidate. That is what they think of women in power.



blessed be