Some, not all but some, of the criticism of Hillary Clinton is blatant sexism

[dsc]

and as a man who doesn't supporter her it is my duty to say so. In a debate in which Mike Gravel was the way he was we only have Hillary called shrill. Hillary cackles. And now SNL has her called a witch.

Hillary, it is said, only is where she is due to her husband yet a look at their histories shows two very accomplished people with her being slightly more accomplished. Who knows if she had decided to be the politician instead of her husband those years ago. But it isn't like she did nothing. She was a named partner in the largest law firm in her state. She was given huge responsibility in reforming Arkansas' education system. Then she got elected and reelected in New York.

I am not saying there aren't legitimate issues with Senator Clinton. But way too much of the criticism of her has been gender based.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. Strong Women Face The Same Hostility From Some As GLBT Folks

It's fear turned into hate...

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

5. what?

I don't see people rejecting her for being a strong woman, I see people rejecting her for being a collaborator.

[maddiejoan]

2. K&R

absolutely agree

[MethuenProgressive]

16. k&r - Absolutely true, just read the weasel words and coded language used.

It doesn't take a Harvard education to see it used in her opponent's rhetoric either.

[sandnsea]

3. And Gravel was in a straight jacket

and Richardson was a kiss-up.

In 2003, Kerry was called a ghoul and a day didn't go by that we didn't see "skull and bones", still see that almost weekly.

This is ridiculous. She has been wrapped in cotton compared to the treatment of Kerry and Gore.

[dsc]

4. The fact that some of the other candidates have been criticised for stupid reasons

doesn't negate my point.

[sandnsea]

19. It's politics, not sexism

And not very tough politics at that.

[Mojorabbit]

6. As a woman

and a feminist, I call BS.

[dsc]

7. Then why was she called shrill when Gravel wasn't

seriously just what other possible explanation is there for that?

[Yupster]

11. Maybe that Gravel is a minor candidate

and is not taken seriously. You wouldn't expect as thorough scrutiny of the 1 % ers as you expect of the frontrunner, be they breasted or balled.

[sandnsea]

22. Gravel was called crazy

Shrill is nothing compared to 'psycho bitch', references to your period, flighty, etc.

[Riktor]

28. Explain how "Shrill" refers to gender

"Shrill" means rude, abrasive, or angry. It is not an insulting descriptive used solely to address women.

[dsc]

34. Oh please

If you really don't think more women are called shrill than men I suggest a google search.

[Riktor]

35. Google isn't a substitute for a dictionary

"Shrill" isn't a sexually pejorative term, regardless of how those on the internets are using it.

While I am willing to accept the premise some people are targeting Hillary's gender as a means of discrediting her, I also maintain you chose a poor example. The SNL sketch was satirical in nature, intended to point out the absurdities inherent in the American political system and the public perceptions of the Democratic candidates. It took aim at all candidates, and did not use its less-than-flattering portrayal of them to endorse one over the others.

[cuke]

57. A dictionart isn't a substitute for eyes and ears

and a working brain to put it together

[Riktor]

65. Profound

Next time, try to work a cogent argument betwixt your ad hominems.

[ladjf]

36. Primarily "shrill" refers to an acoustic quality, a relatively high

pitch with an absence of lower harmonics making the sound unpleasant to the human ear.

For those with naturally higher pitched voices, it's easy to produce what many would call a shrill tone. Since female voices average about an octave higher than males, they run the risk of sounding "shrill" more than men.

I've listened to Mrs. Clinton over the years that she has been in the public light and actually feel that she has done a great job of recasting her vocal quality into a calmer, more ac tractive sound.

In any event, if "shrill" is the worst thing that is being said about any politician they are lucky.

[fujiyama]

43. I'll admit

I have called Hillary "shrill" once. It wasn't gender based though and I never even saw Gravel speak so I couldn't comment on him...that and he's not terribly relevant anyways. On that same token, I've called men shrill too. I find Pat Buchanan incredibly shrill...Same with Limpballs.

[Evergreen Emerald]

12. as a feminist and a woman

I agree that she has a tougher road because she is a woman. Ann Richards said it best: "back wards and in high-heels." There is a difference in America between the way women are treated and the way men are treated--even if you don't want to believe it.

[ruggerson]

15. Oh, you're just being catty

n/t

[Mojorabbit]

33. Lol

my hubby is the catty one in the family. :)

[Pirate Smile]

8. I'm sure some is but A LOT of it is policy based. Her being a woman is one of her positives

for me.

[Botany]

9. So her sex made her:

Take more money than any other candidate Repub or Dem from
Defense, Pharmaceutical, nd Insurance Industries?

Vote to support Joe Lieberman's bad idea to widen the war
and include Iran?

Pose w/ Rupert Murdoch?


*****************

Can you paint with a little broader brush next time?
BTW I worked hundreds of hours for a women, Mary Jo Kilroy,
in the 2006 congressional race ... I gave her money too so when
I see or hear that my questions about Hillary are as a result of
sexism I want to :puke:

[dsc]

13. can you read next time?

You do know what the word some means. If you don't try www.dictionary.com

[cascadiance]

17. It's kind of like a statement that some of the criticism against Condi is sexist and racist...

What purpose does such a thread serve other than to distract from the MANY policy differences we have that she carries out.

Yes, I'm sure that there are some sexist and racist attacks against Condi, just like I'm sure there are some sexist attacks on Hillary and some racist attacks on Obama, but focusing our energy on those distracts us from the real questions of whether they are politicians we want doing the jobs they are doing in government or not and in the case of Obama and Hillary if we want them leading our nation or not.

Distraction is what the MSM like Faux News is about, not us!

[dsc]

18. unlike you I think sexism and racism matter

and aren't mere distractions.

[cascadiance]

23. Yes it does, but the focus of the presidential election should be who is qualified!

... Not whether one is being unfairly attacked or not by a small minority of people.

And people like Edwards, etc. were NOT attacking her in a sexist fashion. They were doing so on policy issues. There IS a difference. If she responds in such a way that acknowledges that and doesn't try to play the sexist card, then my respect goes up for her.

I will be the first to join with you in trying to prevent sexism in many areas of society. But not every discussion circles around this issue. We distract ourselves if we do that.

[sniffa]

10. weLL aLL of the criticism of obama

is anti-reLigious bigotry. no other expLanation.

[terrya]

14. I winced when I heard the "witch" comment on SNL

Because I know that if she's the nominee, we'll be hearing a lot more of that kind of sexist crap. There are legitmate reasons to criticize her...hell, I can think of quite a few. But, come on...reaching for this "witch" stuff...it reminds me of Barbara Bush's comment about Geraldine Ferraro in the 1984 campaign...when Mrs. Bush oh so nastily said when asked about Ms. Ferraro "well, I can't say it, but it rhymes with "rich". That kind of snarky crap, like SNL last night, is something unfortunately I think we will see more of if Hillary Clinton is the nominee. And there is a very good chance she may be. We're entering new territory...this may be the first time in American political history that a woman is a major party Presidential nominee. I hope we here at DU, at least, if we criticize her, will do so on her record or policies...not on her gender.

Recommended. Thank you for your post.

[BeyondGeography]

20. That's a good Hillary impersonation you did there

Thread title: Some, not all but some, criticism of Hillary is blatant sexism.

Last sentence: Way too much of the criticism has been gender based.

[dsc]

21. I think some sexism is way too much

just like I think some racism is way too much.

[jgraz]

24. Most, not some but most, of the allegations of sexism re: Hillary are blatant cynicism

One minute she's using her gender to play the victim, the next minute she's trumpeting her chance to be the First Woman President (tm), the next minute she's pointing out the crucial experience she got as the wife of a president.

And then she's using her gender as a weapon to make cynical allegations of misogyny about anyone who criticizes her.


Perhaps if Hillary started acting like a modern feminist and stopped exploiting her gender at every opportunity, we'd see fewer attacks on her. :shrug:

[Guaranteed]

39. What it is, is deflection and distraction from LEGITIMATE gripes about

her politics.

People don't want to answer for her bullshitting, so they change the subject, and start throwing around the word "sexism."

[regnaD kciN]

25. Very little of it is...

For example, it isn't sexism to oppose her vote for war in Iraq, nor her recent vote that could lead to war in Iran, nor her "No Insurance Company Left Behind" health care plan, nor her flip-flopping from being a major force for Israeli/Palestinian peace during Bill's administration to a rubber stamp for the neo-con world view once she became a New York senator.

What is sexism, and a rather blatant form of it, is the meme spread by "Hill's Shills" here and elsewhere that the only reason for opposing her is that she's a woman. The problem I, and many others, have with Hillary Clinton isn't the makeup of her chromosomes, but the makeup of her positions.

[Evergreen Emerald]

26. I think there can be people who object to her policies, without resorting to sexist remarks

like talking about her "cackle" / her clothing / her hair / calling her a witch...etc.

And, frankly I wonder why you cannot carry on a conversation without resorting to name calling. "Hills Shills" is offensive and makes you look kinda stupid

[Bjorn Against]

27. Sure there is some, however it is not so much the criticism that is sexist ...

It is the way she is treated differently than male candidates that is sexist. I think Hillary is a very flawed candidate for many reasons, although her gender is not one of those reasons.

I don't deny that Hillary does face sexism, but most of the sexism she faces is not quite so explicit as criticism is. They may not criticize her based on her gender, but they will treat her differently than they would if she were male. That is still sexism even if it is not as explicit as we often think of sexism as being.

I don't support Hillary, but I will acknowledge she is not always treated fairly and I have no doubt that at least some of that unfair treatment is because of her gender. I really wish people would reject her based on her policies and not on her gender, but there is no doubt we have a long way to go in this country.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

29. sexism is ingrained in our culture. The Feminist movement began to address the

deep seeded roots 30 years ago.

We are still living the backlash of that attempt to awaken this country to the inherent devaluation of women in private and public life.

I don't agree with Sen. Clinton on several issues, however, I applaud her willingness to bear the slings and arrows of both overt and subtle misogyny, in her run for the Presidency.

MKJ

[Think82]

30. Of course, Hillary is not hesitatiing to play the "victim". She's having it both ways, like her

political decisions. She is the most wishy-washy politician in the race, and it has NOTHING to do with the fact she's a woman

[Adelante]

31. Well, I agree, in general

Then again, sometimes, it's best to be able to take a joke :shrug:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

32. Thank goodness all that blatant sexism is in the MSM and nowhere to be found on DU!

:hi:

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. "Slightly more accomplished"? Give me a friggin' break! n/t

[Outback Bob]

42. Just what has Hillary accomplished?

[Vektor]

45. Read the OP for starters.

Here's a couple of things:

She was a named partner in the largest law firm in her state. She was given huge responsibility in reforming Arkansas' education system. Then she got elected and reelected in New York.

For starters.

Regardless of whether or not you like her, she's a successful, accomplished woman. Most average citizens are not US Senators, lawyers, and First Ladies. And yes, being First Lady DOES come with responsibility. There are a huge number of community outreach and diplomacy issues in which the spouses of presidents are involved in throughout the time their spouse holds office.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vektor]

51. It may very well be a coincidence.

And I don't know the timing of her making partner in relation to Bill's governorship, and you provided no link or source proving it, so (???).

But that's irrelevant, isn't it? She went to law school, passed the bar, and had every right to make partner. She had the education required, and passed the test required to get a law degree.

She also, as I mentioned, is a two term US Senator, and was a first lady very involved in community outreach. It matters not who she was married to - she physically did those things.

Do you believe a woman cannot be successful without riding her husband's coat tails?

And I find your odd accusations questionable. You haven't provided a link, source, etc. to back up why you say she "hasn't accomplished anything".

Are you a Democrat who disagrees with her on policy issues, if so, feel free to discuss that. But what exactly are you getting at here? Of course she has accomplished things. To say otherwise is laughably inaccurate.

So, what's your real reason for these bizarre statements?

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Apparently she's slightly more accomplished.

That whole Rhodes scholar / elected governor/ then elected president of the united states thing, combined with being widely considered the best politician of our age doesn't really count for much in her husband's column.

... because she went to Wellesley, before being asked (by her husband) to handle Arkansas education and the US medical provisioning system.

Remind me, how did that turn out?

[Vektor]

52. I don't think

that she is more accomplished than Bill, per se, but to say she has accomplished nothing at all would not be accurate, either.

And for the record, I'm not a big Hillary supporter. I'm just being honest. She has some accomplishments, but more than Bill? I'm not saying that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

54. She has accomplished a great deal.

She would have accomplished a great deal less had Bill not been elected governor.

[Vektor]

59. Look, I'll be honest...

I'm not a big Clinton supporter. But I do give her credit for having gone to law school, passing the bar exams, earning her own law degree, and being successful. She may have married Bill Clinton, but she had to crack those books, pass those tests, and do the work she has done herself. Yes, being married to Bill brings and sustains name recognition, but she has made a name for herself as well, and even if I am not gung-ho about a Clinton presidency, I cannot deny that she is a smart person who has worked hard.

They are two separate issues really. My pointing these things out do not mean that I am trying to campaign for her, though.

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. She's an accomplished lawyer.

An elected official?

Let's just say that there are those who, like my governor and both my senators, who got there with less help.

[Vektor]

61. That may be true.

And I really don't have enough emotion invested in this debate to care to drag it on. My only point was that she has not accomplished nothing. I certainly never said she was the most accomplished person on the planet, either.

[Guaranteed]

38. LOOK- Clinton is SHIT as a candidate. Period.

That is seriously the end of the analysis. Her gender does not enter into it in the slightest.

She has ZERO leadership ability. She is a triangulator, and doesn't even have the charisma that her husband does to make up for it. She doesn't stand up for one goddamned principle, ever, if there is the tiniest risk involved.

As such, she has done nothing for our party, at all. In fact, she has hurt us on many occasions, publically taking Bush's side when it seemed- at the time- to be politically expedient, just so people wouldn't get the "wrong idea" about her.

Those are SERIOUS FREAKING PROBLEMS. I can't even IMAGINE what she would be like as President. And it's because she is SHIT as a political leader, not because of her gender.

[Sparkly]

40. See? That wasn't sexist.

You stated an opinion I can agree with or disagree with, but you kept her gender out of it. It shouldn't be that difficult to do, especially if someone feels as strongly as you do.

[noamnety]

48. I agree with all that.

And I agree with the OP.

I wish more DUers could criticize her exactly like you just did or maybe even with more detail, without resorting to comments about her makeup, posts that mock photos of her looking like most any woman her age looks - when we don't do that for male candidates whose faces show the effects of age, comments about her voice being too high, etc.

[DemBones DemBones]

53. BINGO!!! I'd like to see a woman president, but not this woman.

When Bill was in office, I thought she was a very intelligent and well-spoken woman who could be a good president. But since then, I've seen what she's done as a senator and in her campaign and don't support her because of her positions, of trying to be everything to everyone.

I haven't seen "Doonesbury" in years but Trudeau can again use the floating waffle image he used to represent Bill if Hillary winds up as president.

[maxanne]

41. true

Shrill is an adjective most commonly applied to women.

Some of the criticisms of Senator Clinton are blatantly sexist.

On the other hand, I've been told I MUST vote for her, because she's a woman.

I worked for women's rights in the 70's - a time when we fought hard for equality.
I reject Clinton as a candidate, which means I'm treating her as an equal - treating
her the way I'd treat any unacceptable candidate.

[Vektor]

44. That sounds like a fair assessment.

Any woman in a male dominated field such as politics (or any woman, period) is definitely going to be subjected to some sexism and gender based discrimination somewhere in her lifetime.

The more high profile she is, the more the chances of that go up.

I think it's a very reasonable conclusion to state that some of the criticism is genuinely policy based, and some of it is certainly good ol' fashioned misogyny, especially jokes about her being a witch, and what not.

[JackORoses]

47. Please put away the Sex Card

Hillary is not disliked because she is a woman.

In fact, if she acted like a real woman rather than like pseudo-man her support would be much greater.

A woman who acted as a Mother to this Nation would be great, we need it.
Mother's don't send there children off to war. Men do that.

But Hill is stuck pretending she is a man in order to get votes.

She is making all the same bad decisions that men make and will continue to do so.

I would love it if she was elected, threw off her calculated disguise, and showed this World what True Compassion is... What a Benevolent leader could accomplish at the helm of the only Superpower.

But I fear this will never be the case.
She will remain in her disguise because she doesn't have the integrity to be herself.

[Prophet 451]

50. Sure, but...

It is extremely irritating when HRC supporters assume that all criticism of her is because she's female. It's a lot like that line the Repubs used that anyone voting against Gomzo's confirmation was racist.

I'm sure that some of the criticism of HRC is sexist but I'm equally sure that many of the criticisms would also have been levelled at any man with the same record.

[Kablooie]

55. I just know I won't vote for her because she's a girl and has cooties.

What's sexist about that?

[Forkboy]

56. Some is, but too many of her supporters use it like the repubs use the term "unpatriotic".

[sniffa]

58. ding!

:thumbsup:

[cuke]

63. And some DUers are homophobic

but there will always be those who accuse the homophiles of faux outrage.

[ileus]

62. Nothing will help them, Hillary is our choice in 2008. Nothing can stop her now.

[illinoisprogressive]

64. I think of Pelosi in this whole argument. How would pelosi have

behaved at and after the debate. The week following one bad night. I somehow doubt she would have sent out surrogate to cry sexism and victim. I doubt she would have done anything at all and handled it with class as she would know it's not sexism. Afterall, she is the most powerful woman in politics and never used the victim card.
Also, being the Speaker, I never see the men being sexist to her. Just rivals. equal.