Obama attacks Hillary with a line Republicans used against Kerry

[Karmadillo]

What a guy! At least he didn't accuse her of claiming to have invented the internet. While we're at it, when did Hillary support an extension of the Iraq war into Iran?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/us/politics/04dems.html?ref=politics

<edit>

Speaking in Spartanburg, Mr. Obama reprised a leading line that Republicans used against Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts four years ago. “My opponent won’t be able to say that I was for the war in Iraq before I was against it,” he said, “or that I supported an extension of the Iraq war into Iran, or that I support the Bush-Cheney diplomacy of not talking to leaders we don’t like.”

more...

[Evergreen Emerald]

1. again he shows his inexperience.

And frankly, is betraying the democrats when he uses the republican mems against the dems.

[liberalnurse]

9. Well said!

:hi: :thumbsup:

[Tellurian]

12. Really, after Obama announced he was running..

He plagiarized excerpts word for word from Edwards 2004 speeches.

Obama demonstrates daily he is no more than a media creation. All hype. No substance. He represents Republicanism.

[MethuenProgressive]

49. The saddest thing is he hasn't the experience to know where his lines come from.

He's not faring well on the main stage.

[The_Casual_Observer]

2. With friends like this.......

[ruggerson]

3. Can't wait to hear the rationalizations on this one

n/t

[MADem]

11. I can't imagine what they'd be.

Maybe it played well to the crowd, locally, but it reads poorly.

[ruggerson]

17. They'll rationalize pretty much anything

if Obama murdered a child, we'd hear: "but he's advocated for child safety laws and sponsored a bill seeking stiffer penalties for online predators."

[Armstead]

4. Why is every criticism of Hillary described as an echo of Republicans?

Obama made a valid point.

[journalist3072]

7. Actually, no he didn't make a valid point. He made a politically self-serving point w/ no validity.

[Evergreen Emerald]

8. but, it was not a valid point. He twisted the facts and distorted the

position and then used the republican mem. Who is working for him? Rove?

[Skip Intro]

10. using Rove's attack lines

[Yael]

27. Using corporatist attack methods against a corporatist candidate?

Smoke 'em if ya got 'em.

:spank:

[Skip Intro]

52. doesn't that invite the "h" word?

hypocrisy

[MADem]

13. Which point was that?

None of his assertions are valid. That's the problem.

[ccpup]

14. the point isn't what people

were, um, pointing out. (sorry for the redundancy) It was the resurrecting of a sentence that's very similar to one the republicans beat John Kerry over the head with. For those who believed in Obama as the harbinger of change and the Politics of Hope, it seems to be a pretty underhanded move. The point he was making could be made many different ways. But reaching back to the smear tactics used against the Dem Nominee in '04 ain't the way to do it.

[Armstead]

28. It is a sentence that will be stated by the Republicans

Pointing that out is not echoing the Republicans.

It's also, unfortunately, the truth.

[liberalnurse]

15. If you keep that up.....

this is what happens!:scared: :scared: :scared:

[Tellurian]

20. haha! good one!

I think I saw what happens to (crack users) supporters promoting Obama's neoconic agenda. (on tv)

[liberalnurse]

21. I'm feeling frisky today!

Clinical Humor is my game.:smoke:

[Tellurian]

34. Cool and humor is in short supply here...

:toast:

[populistdriven]

50. You got that right! At this point Hillary is our best candidate.

Dodd or Kucinich would be great but Hillary's campaign machine is what we need. We need a Democrat in the WH to avert further disaster.

[Armstead]

30. That hurts -- I really do have a toothache today

But it doesn't have anything to do with politics.

[BootinUp]

19. Mainly because its not a valid point

What does "Being for the war" actually mean to you? Obviously she neither ordered the invasion, nor would she have if she was President at the time. It was a vote to put absolute pressure on Saddam for inspections. Not a vote for an invasion. Similarly she has not voted for military action against Iran.

Democrats that repeat the Republican talking points on Iraq, severely hurt our party's chances. And furthermore, most Americans favored forcing Saddam to yield to the UN inspections, and they do not fault Hillary for the invasion.

[bvar22]

45. Fortunately, these Democrats disagree with you and Ms. Clinton.

Why do you think it was titled "The Iraq WAR Resolution"?.....DUH!


The Democratic Party Honor Roll
These Democrats should be remembered for their principled stand against the WAR Machine.

IWR

United States Senate

In the Senate, the 21 Democrats, one Republican and one Independent courageously voted their consciences in 2002 against the War in Iraq :

Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
Barbara Boxer (D-California)
Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
Bob Graham (D-Florida)
Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
Patty Murray (D-Washington)
Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)

Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)


United States House of Representatives

Six House Republicans and one independent joined 126 Democratic members of the House of Represenatives:

Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii)
Tom Allen (D-Maine)
Joe Baca (D-California)
Brian Baird (D-Washington DC)
John Baldacci (D-Maine, now governor of Maine)
Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisconsin)
Xavier Becerra (D-California)
Earl Blumenauer (D-Oregon)
David Bonior (D-Michigan, retired from office)
Robert Brady (D-Pennsylvania)
Corinne Brown (D-Florida)
Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio)
Lois Capps (D-California)
Michael Capuano (D-Massachusetts)
Benjamin Cardin (D-Maryland)
Julia Carson (D-Indiana)
William Clay, Jr. (D-Missouri)
Eva Clayton (D-North Carolina, retired from office)
James Clyburn (D-South Carolina)
Gary Condit (D-California, retired from office)
John Conyers, Jr. (D-Michigan)
Jerry Costello (D-Illinois)
William Coyne (D-Pennsylvania, retired from office)
Elijah Cummings (D-Maryland)
Susan Davis (D-California)
Danny Davis (D-Illinois)
Peter DeFazio (D-Oregon)
Diana DeGette (D-Colorado)
Bill Delahunt (D-Massachusetts)
Rosa DeLauro (D-Connecticut)
John Dingell (D-Michigan)
Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas)
Mike Doyle (D-Pennsylvania)
Anna Eshoo (D-California)
Lane Evans (D-Illinois)
Sam Farr (D-California)
Chaka Fattah (D-Pennsylvania)
Bob Filner (D-California)
Barney Frank (D-Massachusetts)
Charles Gonzalez (D-Texas)
Luis Gutierrez (D-Illinois)
Alice Hastings (D-Florida)
Earl Hilliard (D-Alabama, retired from office)
Maurice Hinchey (D-New York)
Ruben Hinojosa (D-Texas)
Rush Holt (D-New Jersey)
Mike Honda (D-California)
Darlene Hooley (D-Oregon)
Inslee
Jackson (Il.)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Johnson, E.B.
Jones (OH)
Kaptur
Kildee
Kilpatrick
Kleczka
Kucinich
LaFalce
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Lee
Levin
Lewis (GA)
Lipinski
Lofgren
Maloney (CT)
Matsui
McCarthy (MO)
McCollum
McDermott
McGovern
McKinney
Meek (FL)
Meeks (NY)
Menendez
Millender-McDonald
Miller
Mollohan
Moran (Va)
Nadler
Napolitano
Neal
Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Owens
Pallone
Pastor
Payne
Pelosi
Price (NC)
Rahall
Rangel
Reyes
Rivers
Rodriguez
Roybal-Allard
Rush
Sabo
Sanchez
Sanders
Sawyer
Schakowsky
Scott
Serrano
Slaughter
Snyder
Solis
Stark
Strickland
Stupak
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Tierney
Towns
Udall (NM)
Udall (CO)
Velazquez
Visclosky
Waters
Watson
Watt
Woolsey
Wu

[BootinUp]

46. Thanks for your standard netroots

viewpoint.

[creeksneakers2]

22. Its even a GOP slogan

and just as meaningless as last time. Hillary isn't for a war with Iran.

[journalist3072]

5. Like I said earlier, Obama is turning me off more each day. His campaign is going no where, fast!

[ccpup]

6. I was on the fence with Obama

not quite supporting him as "my Candidate", but not at the point where I wouldn't vote for him if he were the Nominee. But he's showing himself to be, above all, a politician, one apparently eager to abandon the Politics of Hope or whatever the tag line was this week. And to resurrect a sentence similar to the one made infamous by the Repuglicans during the '04 Election is pretty damn low. Why doesn't he just ask Rove if he can borrow his How To Win An Election the Republican Way handbook?

[IndianaGreen]

16. Hillary voted for Kyl-Lieberman which is a green light for war on Iran

Hillary is nothing more than Joe Lieberman in drag!

[Tellurian]

23. Hillary "red-lighted" Lieberman's sneak attack... C'mon...you can do better..

you usually give us a good laugh..

Have a great Sunday, Indy!

[IndianaGreen]

26. When Hillary turns Iraq into a Democratic war, and she becomes the war criminal

you won't be laughing!

[Tellurian]

33. Hold your breath for that one...

Because it will never happen.. :hi:

See post #31

[CyberPieHole]

31. Obama failed to vote on Kyl-Lieberman...

that's how important the amendment was to him. If he was opposed to it he should have voted "NO". He's a U.S. Senator, voting on legislation is part of the job description. Obama keeps proving that he is too inexperienced. Bush has shown us what lack of experience engenders.

[IndianaGreen]

56. True! But since I am a Bidenite, I am very proud of Biden and Dodd for voting against K-L

What was Hillary's excuse?

[populistdriven]

32. Obama campaigned for Lieberman

Obama's own words:

Who came to his rescue? Sen. Barak Obama, with a ringing endorsement.

"I know that some in the party have differences with Joe," Senator Obama said, all but silencing the crowd. "I'm going to go ahead and say it. It's the elephant in the room. And Joe and I don't agree on everything. But what I know is, Joe Lieberman's a man with a good heart, with a keen intellect, who cares about the working families of America."

Then, with applause beginning to build, he finished the thought: "I am absolutely certain that Connecticut's going to have the good sense to send Joe Lieberman back to the United States Senate." That time, people cheered loudly.

Nonetheless, Ned Lamont's people were very happy. Ned also was in attendance, sitting with Howard Dean's brother.

Tom Swan, Mr. Lamont's campaign manager, said he had been wary of attending the dinner, given his campaign's outsider status. "I thought I was going to feel like I was on a hunting trip with Dick Cheney, but when we went into that room it was anything but," he said. "There is no doubt in anybody's mind who follows politics in Connecticut that Ned Lamont can win the Democratic primary after last night."

Ned Lamont has a chance, help him out.



http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/2/2006/1472

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2006/04/02/164/90446

[IndianaGreen]

57. And so did Bill Clinton.

At least Big Dog did not campaign for Lieberman in the General Election, only in the primary as Obama did.

AIPAC and Harold Ford, Jr., the current DLC Chair and former Congressman from Tennessee, campaigned for Lieberman in the general election against the Democratic nominee.

[maddiejoan]

37. What was Obama's vote on that again?

Oh yeah --that's right --he couldn't be bothered to vote.

[IndianaGreen]

58. Biden and Dodd voted against Kyl-Lieberman

I am a Bidenite, not an Obama supporter. Obama's AWOL on the vote, does not detract from his valid criticism of Hillary, the only of the candidates that are in Congress to vote for it.

[emilyg]

39. He did not bother to vote.

[IndianaGreen]

59. But "our girl" Hillary voted for it

and she is still defending Kyl-Lieberman.

[Basileus Basileon]

18. He's getting desperate, which is sad.

He had so much promise.

[msongs]

24. it is a convoluted sentence and disproves what is intended anyway - poor wordcraft ....

“My opponent won’t be able to say that...I supported an extension of the Iraq war into Iran..."

If he means HILLARY won't be able to say "...that I supported an extension of the Iraq war into Iran..." then obama is actually saying Hillary did not support an extension of same.

poorly phrased where the content is valid or not.

Msongs

[Bitwit1234]

25. I think he and every body else has run that crap into the ground about

voting for the Iraq War. And Obama is so fond of saying that, he could have given it more credibility if he hadn't hid and not voted on the Kyl-Liberman. He was too damn scared to go on the record. I think every time he makes the statement about Hillary voting for the war he makes himself more immature. Most people who were concerned with issues, would have understood what she said and moved on. Those trying to gain a swift boat point wouldn't So that's why he is, according to an old adage, "Beating a dead horse".

[fedupinBushcountry]

29. But...........

You did vote against the K/F amendment in '06 and went to the floor using that Republican talk "PRECIPITOUS" and so did Hillary. So in reality you did support continuing the Iraq war.

[Cass]

35. I'd really like to see these forceful attacks turned on Bush and Cheney

or on some of those asswipe republicans. That's who deserves his wrath. Why not take a swipe at Guiliani or Romney for a change??

This constant sniping at Clinton is wearing thin. Can't he make a point without criticizing her? You know, he said the other night that a Clinton nomination would result in partisan fighting like what we endured for 8 years under Bill Clinton's presidency, and guess what?? He's doing their work for them right now - they don't have to frigging say a word against her because they have Obama knocking the shit out of her every time he opens his mouth.

I'm not even a Hillary supporter and this is getting under my skin. Sheesh.

[Tellurian]

41. How can he? They are his brethren!

[TheWraith]

36. Has it occurred to you WHY that line is important?

Because it's exactly what the Republicans are going to say when it comes to the general election. We got garotted last time by the fact that our candidate didn't have a clear and consistent position on the war.

[BootinUp]

40. So you think

this is a weakness for Hillary then?

I don't think she has the same problem with inconsistent statements on this issue that Kerry had. I think most Americans agree with her position, that bad or misleading intelligence reports from the administration lead to the invasion which in hindsight was a mistake. ANd that inspections should have been allowed to continue.

I also don't think most Americans fault her for voting for the authorization as a means of forcing Saddam to allow full access to inspectors.

[goodgd_yall]

43. Not an Obama supporter, but I agree with you

That is exactly what Obama is doing---pointing out his perceived weaknesses in his opponent to demonstrate what her vulnerabilities would be against the Republican candidate. It's ridiculous, to me, that this is being seen as Obama using Republican tactics.

[karynnj]

48. Kerry had a clear consistent opinion in 2004

It was the media parroting the Republican acusations that Kerry had to fight.

1) IWR - he defended the vote all 2004, noting that Bush said it was not a vote for war, but for leverage in negotiating. He also said in his floor speech that it was not a vote for regime change and was only a vote if for war as a last resort if was an imminent threat from WMD. He said there was no imminent threat in Oct 2002. By March 2003, with the inspectors in there was LESS of a threat, not more. Kerry claimed Bush abused the resolution. His position on that vote stayed constant. (He did change his position in 2005 - and accepted "his share of responsibility")

2) On going to war - he was on record that the invasion was not a last resort - which he said thousands of times in 2004. Catholics should have known that this was saying it was not a just war.

3) His way to deal with the war, given that we were in one, has been consistent from 2003 until the present. The media that said he didn't have a plan in 2004 or that it was Bush's, magically identified the ISG recommendations as what Kerry had recommended then.

Here is a link - from Newspapers that got it right in 2004:

From the Knight/Ridder papers:

""Sen. John Kerry set his jaw, and even sighed at one point, as he confronted anew the confusion over his stand on the Iraq war, a fog that has enveloped his candidacy for months.

"I have one position on Iraq," Kerry insisted this week during a rare news conference. "One position."

In fact, he's right, his image as a "flip-flopper" notwithstanding."


http://media.www.pittnews.com/media/storage/paper879/news/2004/09/27/PittCision/Despite.Accusations.Kerrys.Position.On.Iraq.Has.Been.Consistent-1789042.shtml

For the Democrats, what ws done to Kerry is a risk for all of them. Some of the problems were:

1) These three issues were conflated. Because Kerry offered a plan for what he would do - he was said to be for the war. (This was said in addition to the charge that by voting for the IWR in Oct 2002, he was for the war in March 2003.)

On the IWR, HRC, Edwards, and Dodd will be in a similar position - though none of them publicly spoke against going to war in early 2003 (as Kerry did)and Edwards spoke in favor of the invasion. Biden is slightly different as he pushed the better Biden/Lugar resolution - which would have led to the same signing statement.

But in 2008, a bigger issue is what your plan was. For Obama, the inconsistency was that voted against Kerry/Feingold, calling it cut and run, then backed essentially the same thing 6 months later as "his plan". HRC was one of those within the Democratic party that villified Kerry for the plan - that is now close to what she supports. Edwards did not support it or denounce it. Biden was consistent in that he was against a deadline and for his plan - and still really is.

[jenmito]

38. And we Dems. attack Bush with the same lines bin Laden uses. What's your point?

:shrug:

[maximusveritas]

42. This is the same way Republicans dodge criticism

They attack the way the critic phrased his criticism instead of actually addressing that criticism. We've seen it time and time again as they try to make the issue about Pete Stark or MoveOn instead of their grave failures. Hillary has also perfected the art of avoiding criticism this way, but it won't work when it's the Republicans offering the criticism and the media won't cover for her anymore.

[Karmadillo]

44. The media covers for Hillary?

nt

[Alexander]

47. Yes, he said the Republicans can't use the "flip-flopper" label against him.

Which is true.

I see the Hillary fans here have a real problem with context clues.

[Mend]

51. the republicans keep calling him Osama....how's that for a "context clue"

problem?

[BeyondGeography]

53. Obama is 100% correct

If we haven't learned by now that anyone who voted for IWR and subsequently opposed the war will be labelled a flip-flopper than we should just start calling ourselves Dopeycrats.

[sundancekid]

54. "just say NO to flip flop and no 44" - ready for your close up, yet?

[Apollo11]

55. Obama was attacking Edwards with the line about Iraq

“My opponent won’t be able to say that I was for the war in Iraq before I was against it”

This is Obama pointing out a difference between himself and John Edwards.

It's a legitimate point to make.

Edwards knows he cannot hide from his past statements on Iraq.

He hopes that people will accept his apology and forgive him.

I don't know if Hillary is against the war in Iraq.

If she is then I guess it would apply to her also.