Why are we ready to roll over so fast?

[diamondsoul]

Ok roll over may be a little extreme, but honestly that's how it feels to me. Approximately 25% of the votes are in and people have decided the race is over. Not this chick!

I'm not finished, I have things I'm determined to see changed, and things I want addressed and I have no intention of shutting up and falling in line behind either of the two current front-runners!

Tell ya what folks, how about you show me how John Kerry or John Edwards are advocating radical changes to our election process so the popular vote actually means something. I don't see it. Dennis Kucinich says IRV, public funding of campaigns, cut the corporate control, free and open debates with fair coverage standards applied, bust the media monopolies so we don't have what we're seeing now. Anyone else plan to make ME count again?

I got frustrated for a couple of days. Music yanked me out of it. You want Democratic Unity, as the song says, Gimme one reason to stay here! Right now it's not happening and I'm not alone. There are things that scare me more than another Bush term. Peple who refuse to stand up and tell the powers that be "THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!" scare me. People who think that winning with no reward behind it is good enough scare me.

What do I win when jobs are still being shuffled off to other nations? What do I win when soliders are stil dying in Iraq and Afghanistan? What do I win when my health insurance still doesn't make my medical care affordable? What do I win? NOTHING.

I go back to the Kucinich song "WMDs". It's one of my favorites because it just says it all-

"I think that I can be of help to this administration in it's efforts to find weapons of mass destruction....Because Mr. President they're here at home! Poverty is a weapon of mass destruction! Homelessness is a weapon of mass destruction! Poor health care is a weapon of mass destruction! And when a government lies to it's people THAT is a weapon of mass destruction!

<snip>

It's weapons of mass destruction, eyes are captured by the lies of the comin' attraction. Our lives in the hands of war profiteers, we need Kucinich to reflect the peple's image."

But no. Some of us are willing to hand it all over to a middle of the road, status quo candidate. Fear. I'm so sick of living in fear so I quit! I quit in March of last year, and so help me I WILL NOT GO BACK! Dennis Kucinich has lived some of the worst America can do and he's never ONCE given up. I'll be damned if that isn't an example worth following.

I'm not interested inhearing the same BS I've heard for decades while we keep going down the path to ruin. I'm not interested in China retaining favored nation status! I'm not interested in "fixing" a 10 yr old trade agreement that has had amendment after amendment proposed with absolutely NO impact! I'm not interested in keeping a for profit healthcare system that leaves THOUSANDS to die because they can't afford what they need to survive!

You want unity? You'd best give me something to unite behind or it's syonara Democratic Party. I may stay in the country and there will be only one thing that makes think that's even worth doing- Dennis John Kucinich. He'll need my support while he keeps on fighting for me.

WE WILL NOT BE SILENT AND FALL IN LINE, AND WE WILL NOT DISAPPEAR BECUSE YOU CHOOSE NOT TO HEAR US!

[mhr]

1. I Love The Passion, Intensity, and Youthful Spirit

"WE WILL NOT BE SILENT AND FALL IN LINE, AND WE WILL NOT DISAPPEAR BECAUSE YOU CHOOSE NOT TO HEAR US!"

Regrettably, we can all be ignored.

What is the old story about the sound of a forest tree crashing?

Well the left is a whole forest crashing simultaneously with no one listening.

To the sheeple ignorance is bliss.

Organizing and orchestrating ignorance is why Rove makes the big bucks!

[diamondsoul]

7. "Regrettably, we can all be ignored."

Not if we're all screaming the truth at the same time. If people calling for unity would unify behind the real voice for change, we COULD NOT BE IGNORED. Instead they're cajoling, sweet-talking and sometimes outright bullying me into uniting behind the status quo candidates and I'm saying emphatically NO! I WILL NOT DO IT!

[mhr]

8. True, But Who And How Will It Be Organized And Financed?

Many have noticed that Rove controls the airwaves.

So how will a vilified group overcome that disadvantage.

This isn't the sixties anymore when the country was full of young college aged baby boomers with time on their hands.

Economically, the powers that be have marginalized the country via job serfdom.

There just isn't a viable group, other than the college educated suburban vote, with the resources and time to make a difference.

We just saw Dean drawn and quartered by the DLC and media.

How does one overcome the party and media?

[diamondsoul]

10. The problem from my perspective-

is that we're splintered. We've got peace groups, civil rights groups, labor groups, living wage groups, etc. etc. Now that the election season is upon us we've split behind several candidates.

***Note to Dean supporters, Clark supporters or anyone else whose candidate has left the race- I am NOT attempting to recruit here, just laying out a theory I think is worth considering***

If we all came together and backed the one guy left in the race who still has a chance to overcome the status quo candidates, we could pull it off. The LA Times has announced this morning that Sharpton and Kucinich will be in the 2/26 debate, so obviously we've managed to do something right, and that happened because Dean supporters, Kucinich supporters and supporters of other candidates objected to the manipulation as a UNIFIED FRONT.

If we can do it and overcome the media, we can do it and overcome the Party leadership, too.

[mhr]

13. Dennis Has Always Been My Man - I Am With You 100 Percent On That Vote

However, I am not idealistic enough to think it will make a difference with the media and party stacked against us.

Like others, I have ideas on what it will take to unseat the the powers that be. Regrettably, I do not see the organization and resources needed to make that happen.

My only qualification in making this judgment is a lot of life experience.

[diamondsoul]

18. Understandable-

But I submit Cheryl in posts below has it nailed.

The organization may well not be there and that's why WE ALL have to do something about it. Sitting here and saying it isn't there won't change anything. We have to create the organization.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. What's with the pessimism?

If the Rumanian people could unite to overthrow Ceaucescu (think they didn't have a controlled media and extensive domestic spying?). if the Venezuelans could reverse a coup against their president, if South Africans could overthrow apartheid, why can't we get anything done?

Among ourselves, we're so intellectual that we get into academic games of whether this policy or that policy has better commas and italics in it, and we split with people who should be our allies. As long as there is a Green party, and a Socialist party, and a Socialist Workers' party, and a Freedom Socialist party, and an Alliance party and Lord knows what else, the left is weak. One of the things that made me crazy when I active in the anti-intervention movement was when say, a Marxist would refuse to participate in an event because it was a Maryknoll Catholic priest speaking or when a Democrat would refuse to participate because he had heard rumors that the speaker was a Socialist.

In addition, we don't get out and talk to ordinary people in ways that they can relate to. We've allowed the Republicans to paint us as "elitists," and it doesn't help when Democrats or other leftists made snide remarks about "trailer trash" or refer to people's religious beliefs as "fairy tales."

Back when I could hear Jim Hightower's radio show, I was impressed at the way he could figure out where people were coming from and steer them to see things in a different way, all in that folksy Texas manner of his.

One of my associates in the pro-transit movement has stated that it's no coincidence that Republicans typically love car-dependent suburbia and fight against public transit and walkable, bikable development, because in suburbia, everyone is always in their cars, driving long distances for this and that, working long hours to pay for the trophy house and the two cars, and with no time left over for community involvement and few opportunities to see the same people every day or jaw with the neighbors at the local coffeeshop or tavern.

I don't think it's a coincidence, either, that cities, which still have "urban villages" tend to vote Democratic.

The Republicans have created their own communities in the form of fundamentalist churches. Perhaps Democrats need to create communities, too, by organizing their precincts into year-around social units.

I'm rambling, but I don't think that pessismism and apathy are called for, despite the overwhelming dominance of right-wing media.

If the Rumanians could do it, why can't we?

[BeFree]

2. There be but one path...

Vote for Kuch in the primary. Let thine own vote be heard.

Then, for whosoever standeth in opposition to the B* in November, cast yee again thine vote.

In the meantime, realize that without unity thy singular vote is liken unto a needle in yonder haystack.

<grinning>

[Desertrose]

3. right on diamondsoul!!

I am so with you here....I am so ready to let the centrists be centrists and maybe the progressives need to move at their own speed. I don't know...I just know something doesn't feel right when I am being told what to think- how to vote- who to vote for...just "because"...or ABB oe whatever.

Damn!

So I am totally in agreement with you & others who are thinking the same way here....

WE WILL NOT BE SHOUTED DOWN, SHAMED OUT OR "DISAPPEARED" FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE.....

Peace
DR

[adadem]

4. One or two questions...

are you, or are you planning to run as, a precinct delegate or captain?

Are you now, or are you planning to run for, a position within your local or county Democratic Party?

Nothing will change without you and everyone else getting involved to build the Democratic Party into what we want it to be. And keep in mind that not everyone will see it your way so you have to be willing to negotiate and work towards unity.

For those of you who are all talk and no action you have no one to blame but yourselves and these rants sound like sour grapes.

[diamondsoul]

6. Hi Cheryl.

At this moment I'm not doing those things. Instead I'm working my butt off to promote the progressives who have already established themselves within the party. For me to try to get myself heard there would take more time than I think we have.

That's not to say that I won't be working within the party structure, I'm just new enough to the party organization that I don't have much influence yet.

Can I point out that you come across as somewhat condescending to people who had been apathetic and have only recently begun to wake up to the situation, which would include me. Sour grapes- well YES I'm bitter and angry and suffering from several years worth of sour grapes! I trusted the Party to do right by the people and they haven't.

[adadem]

11. Diamond, my friend..

I don't mean to be "mean" or condescending....I apologize if you felt that.

I'm attempting to get you and those who are angry and frustrated to turn that anger into constructive change for the Democratic Party so that your anger will not sound like "sour grapes". I'm sorry but that's how "rants" sound right now....my candidate is not winning or has dropped out so I will vote third party or not vote at all.

Change will not happen at the convention by having a handful of delegates. The change will happen if every eligible DUer, all 33 thousand or so of us, becomes a precinct delegate or board member in their local, county or state Democratic Party so that our voices are heard at the state level up to the national level. It's not going to happen over night...it's going to take years...maybe more than a few.

After the inaugural protest march a few of us who had gone decided that change had to happen so we ran for various posts in 2002...precinct delegate to board members...and now we're seeing some change. That change will not happen without you and everyone else here.

Being a precinct delegate does not take that much time...do it....you will feel much better in the long run.

[Kanary]

19. From my perspective

Yes, you're coming on quite strong, and not seeming to take personal situations into account.

While your goals are quite legitimate, and I would support your ideas wholeheartedly, if you approached it more softly, with encouragement rather than strong arming, I think you'd find more openness to your suggestions.

You might find that many of us have done such in the past, and have been more active than maybe you give credit for, if you were to ask first. You also might find that many of us are dealing with such impossible current situations that it's probably unlikely that we can do as you want.

In any case, a little more openness to where others are might get you the results you desire.

Honey/vinegar.

Kanary

[diamondsoul]

21. Easy, Kanary.

:hug:

She's got valid points, and I don't think she was being "strong-arm" intentionally which is why I pointed out the percieved tone the way I did.

She's right I haven't done those things, but that's mainly because coordinating a Statewide Presidential campaign takes a lot of time and work.

[Kanary]

22. Yes, valid points

But approach is everything.

Maybe it didn't bother you... but it did me.

I've been judged too many times without others bothering to find out more about me first.

I'm at my limit with that.

There're ways to approach that maximizes results.

This is one good place to find that out.

Kanary, who *was* being easy....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. I'm planning to run as a delegate to the district convention

and I'm in charge of recruiting voters from my precinct to cast a caucus vote for Kucinich.

This is all new to me. I got disillusioned out of politics (long story) while I was in Oregon, which has a different system (late primary), so I'm stepping into unfamiliar territory.

After Wellstone was killed, I realized that we couldn't depend on one person to carry the whole burden. As Will PItt said in his most recent essay, we are each the person we have been waiting for.

You've heard the sleazebag's excuse for sleazy deeds,"If I don't do it, someone else will."

When it comes to good deeds, we can't assume that. We have to take the attitidue,"If I don't do it, maybe no one will."

[Darth_Kitten]

5. YOU GO!!!!

:toast: Wow! :)

[Cuban_Liberal]

9. I've just begun to fight!

I'm not going to concede defeat until Sen. Kerry racks up his 2161st delegate!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

16. I too, have just begun to fight.

I'm not going to declare victory until January 20, 2005!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. IRV? No thank you.

[IrateCitizen]

14. Why not?

Seriously, it's bad form to simply state your dislike for something without providing reasons why.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

15. Here's a good discussion of the topic:

http://www.electionmethods.org/IRVproblems.htm

[Kanary]

17. Interesting dichotomy here, isn't it?

It's quite a study in human behavior to take note of two main conflicts going on:

1. Having rules for civil discourse.

2. Limiting who can participate in political debates.

The people who are against the rules in #1 continually cite "freedom of speech" and the "damage to democracy" by not allowing people to vent whatever nasty attacks they wish, all in the name of "freedom".

Yet, some of the same people are strongly promoting the idea that we supporters of candidates not in the top two should somehow pressure our candidates to stay out of debates, and to heck with "democracy" and "freedom of speech".

Because we aren't rolling over to their demands, then we find ourselves the target of their hostile 'free speech".

Quite the interesting study of human rationale.

Kanary

[MuseRider]

20. Nice observation.

I had not gotten that far yet, still reeling from the very idea that these 2 should or would be excluded.

[MuseRider]

23. I am with you all the way.

I have no horrified reaction to either Kerry or Edwards. They are both fine men and I will vote for either one if they are nominated even though I do have some BIG issues with both of them. Just to think of Bush* and what he could do in 4 more years has driven me to this point. Yes, it is fear. That being said I am sticking with Dennis J. Kucinich because I believe in him. He is the only candidate that speaks to me and for me. To me he is the only one, as you so eloquently said, that has policies that will truly change this country toward the betterment of all of us. If it were not for him and his unwillingness to give up I would already be gone from this party. He is the one holding me here because if he believes there can be change then I believe it as well. I am very happy to see Dean not willing to give up on the people as well. Although I had some major problems with him as a candidate the basic premise of his organization combined with the already intact progressive movement is inspiring to say the least. I will not fall in line and I will stand with Kucinich as along as he remains. I may vote for someone else whom I may not agree with entirely but that is with the thought that we can and will be able to change as long as that person does not seek to shut up the rest of us. To be told to get out or to give up is the worst any party can do to a person or a movement. It will either galvanize us or send us away. It is up to them.

[arwalden]

24. Atta-Girl... If You Believe In Kucinich, Then Vote For Him

If he gets the nomination, I can PROMISE you that I'll vote for him too in the General Election. Will you be offering the same support if he doesn't win the nomination?

>> You want unity? You'd best give me something to unite behind or it's syonara Democratic Party. I may stay in the country and there will be only one thing that makes think that's even worth doing- Dennis John Kucinich. <<

What are you saying? Are you saying that if Kucinich isn't nominated, then you'll abandon the Democratic party and refuse to vote for the candidate who wins the Democratic nomination? Are you suggesting that you would prefer to "punish" the party--and the country--for not nominating your ideal candidate? (Please clarify with a reply here or by sending me a PM.)

In our system, only two candidates have any actual chance of winning. What subtracts from the weight of votes behind one increases the weight of votes behind the other. All political strategists understand this, and thus all campaigns involve two prongs, one aimed at raising turn-out among one's supporters, and one aimed at depressing turn-out among supporters of one's opponent.

It does not matter which proves most effective: what is aimed at is the maximum favorable differential between the number of votes cast for one's candidate, and for the opposing candidate.

The course advocated here by some, to withhold their votes from the nominee of the Democratic Party, in our electoral system, WILL HAVE THE EFFECT of increasing the weight of votes behind the Republican candidate, and could lead to that candidate having more votes than the Democratic candidate.

As the Republican Party today represents the worst elements of reaction in our polity, for anyone to act in that manner is to act in support of the worst elements of reaction in our polity. It is, as a matter of practical effect, to sign on to the enemy's attempt to suppress turn-out favorable to the Democratic nominee.

Such effective co-operation with the worst elements of reaction is a damned odd way to demonstrate the zeal of one's attachment to left and progressive principles!

-- Allen

edit: typo

[diamondsoul]

27. I will vote for the Democratic Nominee.

But not from any sense of duty or loyalty to the Party or even the country at this point. I'll vote for the nominee because that's what Dennis John Kucinich will advise me to do and because I trust him.

That's the key for me now. I'm tired of not being able to trust my candidates. For the first time I have one I trust implicitly and whatever he opts to do, I will support him.

If he isn't the nominee, I will vote for the candidate who is and then promptly re-register as an Independant, UNLESS my efforts to change my local Party show some sign of working. I will not affiliate with a Party that will not represent me and my needs in the most effective manner. After that, I will work my rear end off to promote Dennis Kucinich for the next 4 years. I'll assist with his House campaign, I'll tape his floor speeches and show them to people, I press for another draft Kucinich movement in 2008, and this time I'll be prepared.

If he doesn't get the nomination in this election, I guarantee he will in 2008 because I'll be a force to be reckoned with on his team.

[arwalden]

31. I Hear You... Thanks! (nt)

[redqueen]

25. I'm with you

I'm sticking with Kucinich until the bitter end.

I don't know when or if I'll ever have another chance to support so wonderful a candidate, so there's no way on God's green earth I'm switching until I absolutely have to.

[indigo32]

26. I have decided I'm going to vote for DK

in the caucuses on Mar 2nd. So nope, I'm not rolling over so fast. Though I will support the nominee in Nov.

[revcarol]

29. Nothing we do COUNTS with the status quo party.

Worked for the Democratic Party for 40 years. Got out EIGHTY PERCENT Of Democrats in my precinct to vote in 2002. Personally registered over 1000 new voters , got over 100 Greens to switch back.

Yet, when I announce that I want equal time at a Democratic meeting for DK with Edwards and Kerry, I'm looked at like I'm a dead grasshopper on their steak.

I'M TIRED OF IT AND I WON'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!

And DU is almost becoming impossible with the "gotta restrict the speech of DK and AS" attacks.

NO, I'm NOT going to roll over and play dead. This is MY PARTY, too. They've been promising to listen to us for years. I hate to tell them, but "THE TIME IS NOW!!"

Gee, you'd think we were black people or sumthin', the way the party doesn't listen to us.

[MuseRider]

32. My state

democratic party laughed at me, patted me on the head and told me to get serious. I'm still here and I am DAMNED serious.

[Kanary]

33. Well, grasshopper, I'm with ya on that

and have been for quite a while.

I guess the advantage in being one of the "dregs" is that it clears your vision. I saw the writing on the wall a L O N G time ago..... and I can tell ya... being invisible does NOT inspire determined support.

Instead, if there are people like you and others who are going to put your energy into putting up a big fuss and taking power back, that's where I'll be. Nutz to Dems who only want my time, energy and $$ (which I don't have anyway), then forget about me the rest of the time.

Power To The People!

See how it keeps coming back.... ~~gigglesnort!~~

Kanary

[Padraig18]

34. It ain't over 'til it's over, diamondsoul!

I will fight tooth and nail for every delegate, and I will NOT surrender until John Kerry has his 2161st delegate!

TO ARMS! :thumbsup: