IMO: Kerry is going to lose in Nov...

[AmyStrange]

unless he gets Edwards as his running mate and even then it will be real close.

You may not agree with me and that's fine, and you can argue with me until November, but my whole arguement is that you will see I am right in November.

The only other chances we had to win for sure are being ignored because they are "perceived" as unelectable - Dean, Kucinich, Sharpton, and Braun. And the funny part is when Kerry loses in November, I can use the arguement that a vote for Kerry today was really a vote for Bush in November!

And best of all is what could have been if you had voted for the other four instead - regardless of "perceived" electability. Wouldn't you be using the same argument to marshall the troops behind Dean, or Kucinich, or Sharpton, or Braun that you are using for Kerry?

Ah, the possiblilities of what could have been.

No way am I voting for anyone (including Bush) who voted for the war in Iraq. What I will do instead is get involved at the local level and try to get as many dems here in Washington State sent to Washington DC. That's where the real battle will be fought regardless of who wins the Presidency... don'tcha think? Even extreme SCOTUSes will be filibustered by the dems and the more we can send, the better off we are.

Sorry for ranting...


and don't forget to check out the best "uNoFficIaL" Democratic Underground slang Dictionary on the web today:
http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[Sagan]

1. Nah.

Clark will do. As will Richardson.

An empty can of diet coke will out-poll Chimpy by November.

[AmyStrange]

7. hehehehe....

we shall see who is right in November - now won't we?

The problem is that I don't think the people in the DU are going to decide this election. I think the people whom would have decided this election have been turned off by Kerry and all the other voters that are left, most of them like what Bush did in Iraq and his tax cuts and in April everyone will get a small bump more of a tax cut back and people will spend it and that will bump up the economy just enough so Bush will look good right around November.

It will come down to a definition of what's a recession.

But, again I rant...


and don't forget to check out the best "uNoFficIaL" Democratic Underground slang Dictionary on the web today:
http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[JI7]

2. so vote for John Edwards

if you think kerry can't win.

[AmyStrange]

8. I voted for Dean here in Seattle...

I did my part to get Bush out of office,



and don't forget to check out the best "uNoFficIaL" Democratic Underground slang Dictionary on the web today:
http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[JI7]

9. send money to john edwards then

and help him out in other states if you think kerry can't win.

[LiberalFighter]

29. Not unless you vote for the Democratic nominee in the GENERAL ELECTION

The general election decides who gets elected president. Primaries only decide the nominee.

[AmyStrange]

59. Won't matter because...

Washington State is going Dem so what I do won't matter at all,



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/

[Deaner1971]

60. Nice attitude

Gee, why not convince a few friends that their vote doesn't matter and maybe they'll tell a few friends and they'll tell a few. Hell, if you try hard you could get enough Dems to act like votes don't count that you could snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Fantastic idea!

[AmyStrange]

61. I'm not trying to convince anybody...

of anything. All the ABB arguments won't matter in Nov. Even if you were able to convince all the 40,000 people in the DU and all their friends and family to vote for Kerry, it won't matter in Nov.

And you will see I am right when Bush wins in November and that's my whole arguement.

The only chance Kerry has if he picks Edwards for his running mate and even then it will be real close.





Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/

[Deaner1971]

62. But...

I don't just live in the DU and neither do you. The attitude that we share and the actions we take influence far beyond these pages.

Why are you gloating about a Bush victory? Is that your desire? Why are you creating this thread if you aren't trying to convince anyone?

If you don't want Bush to win, why are you betting on him and sitting on your hands?

I refuse to accept that Bush will remain in our White House. I refuse to accept that I don't have any impact on or any responsibility for what happens in November.

You sit there and be negative. You tell people that their votes don't matter. The rest of us will get the work done that needs to be done. Do me a favor though, do something. If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Now excuse me but, we've got an election to win.

[AmyStrange]

64. I am not gloating...

I am merely stating what I believe. I WANT to be proven wrong.

But no matter what you or I (or all the ABB folks out there) believe, it won't change what happens in November and that is my arguement. The only thing that will change it is if Kerry picks Edwards as his running mate. This is the ONLY thing that will get Kerry elected in November and even though - it will still be real close.



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/

[atre]

19. I think this guy is saying he won't vote for either Edwards or Kerry

...(hence the "I won't vote for anyone who voted for IWR"). I understand why you are confused, however, because he spends so much time talking about the candidates' electability.

[mb7588a]

3. How you are "perceived" gets votes.

Seems like campaign rule #1 to me. *shrug*

IMO, at this point, single issue voting on Iraq is beyond irresponsible - You can vote for someone who voted for it, or someone who ACTUALLY DID IT, AND WOULD HAVE REGARDLESS OF THE VOTE. Your choice in the end, Amy.

[Shanty Oilish]

4. Think this over

You stumble into an arena and there's John Kerry boxing with George W. Bush. When the fight's over, the winner gets a free shot at you.

The fix is in, but there's a chance you can change it by betting on Kerry.

Place your bet? :shrug:

[AmyStrange]

10. I'll bet on getting more dems into Congress...

that's where the real battle will be regardless of who wins the presidency? Don'tcha think? More Dems and it will be easier for Kerry and harder for Bush.

I will not vote for anyone who voted for the Iraq war. I don't care if it makes me irresponsible. Personally, I believe voting for "perceived" electability is just as irresponsible but that's just my opinion.

We'll see in November,



and don't forget to check out the best "uNoFficIaL" Democratic Underground slang Dictionary on the web today:
http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[DemBones DemBones]

13. That's not an option. It's either Bush or our guy in November.

Helping elect more Dems to Congress is great but we need Bush out and a Dem in the White House.

I'm still voting for Kucinich in my primary but in November, I'll vote for the Dem nominee, as all Dems and others who don't love Bush, war, crony capitalism, poverty, repression of rights, dynasties, and robbing the poor to give to the rich, should do. Better a flawed Dem than a Bush Dauphin.

[LiberalFighter]

30. It is easier to remove ONE guy from office...

then it is to change the makeup of Congress.

[orangeotter]

46. Number of Dems. is antithesis to argument for true Dems.

If you think that you could never vote for a candidate b/c they don't match up with you on a key issue then why would you want the number of Dems. in the house to increase. What was it almost half of them voted for that resolution believing its steps before military force would be used? Besides if you take the number of "real" Dems. in the house (those who have a liberal record) there is no hope of turning the tide. The presidency is one office that can have more of an impact than 50 dixiecrats in the House. I support people's right to vote for third patries, but I also know Kerry has over a 90% liberal voting record and a 100% rating from the LCV and NAACP.

[deminflorida]

5. A lame mule could beat Bush in November....

Edwards might work, but Clark would make it a landslide. Richardson might work too.

Edwards might not pull North Carolina and for sure not South Carolina.

Clark with the Clinton support makes Arkansas a sure win, and possibly Oklahoma, LA, and Florida a very winnable race.

You never know where the Latino vote is going to go, the Cubans have been screwing us for years down here in Florida, so don't put too many eggs in Richardson's basket either.

[LiberalFighter]

31. Cubans in Florida.. specifically the Miami Cubans

we should not bother with them. It is a wasted effort to target them because of their Castro fanaticism. Al Gore should had stayed out of the fray regarding the boy because it wasn't going to help him win votes with the Miami Cubans.

It is a different story with the other Hispanics in Florida.

[BL_Zebub]

51. And a lame mule is exactly what's being pushed for the nomination

mule being another word for donkey, donkey being another word for Demoncrat, and lame being an accurate description of anyone who voted for the Bush/PNAC agenda for the last three years.

[molly]

6. Kerry voted for the war RESOLUTION

this has been detailed - spelled out - emphasized - many times here on DU. Without a RESOLUTION, there would have been NO CHANCE of involving the UN - idiot-boy would have just gone to war. Now, we have a record. Face it - we were all lied to - some more than others - some with more false information than others.

We NEED to win. Getting involved at the local level is a great way to begin.

[AmyStrange]

12. So why vote for it then?...

That's the part I don't understand about Kerry? It would have passed without his vote and the president would have went to war regardless of his vote.

Who cares about the record? To me the record of the vote reminded me a little of the McCarthy era. I'm sorry, but it was like if you don't vote for Iraq you are with the terrorist (or back then a communist).

That is the way the public saw it and still sees it.

It's kind of sad really, but that's my impression,



and don't forget to check out the best "uNoFficIaL" Democratic Underground slang Dictionary on the web today:
http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[still_one]

11. If enough people Feel as you,

"No way am I voting for anyone (including Bush) who voted for the war in Iraq. ", then Bush has a good chance to win. If that occurs, then the neo-cons will be able to solidfy their power, and like you rank, I will rank that control will not be taken from the republicans for at LEAST 20 years. Not only will they control the Supreme Court, but the executive and legislative branch.

Incidently, this is not meant as disrespect, but if you examine how the electoral college votes are spread accorss the states, Dean, Kucinich, Sharpton, or Braun, could not win. It is too bad you left Clark out.

Vote on so-called principle, and destroy the environment, a woman's right to choose, privatization of social security and medicare, and our children paying for the debt.

A far more constructive approach, ESPECIIALLY with this election is to get a Democrat in because of the Surpeme Court, then try to influence the party, and then if it doesn't work, at least we will not have to worry about the Supreme Court, and you can run or push whatever candidate you feel best meets your needs

[AmyStrange]

14. Maybe...

and maybe not. We'll see in November.

If my state of Washington goes Bushes way in November then you can complain, but trust me - that ain't gonna happen.

Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[still_one]

15. Every vote counts

They said the same thing about Nader in 2000, but this time the Supreme Court is really at stake, and I dread Justices of the calibar of Scalia being appointed

[AmyStrange]

28. I agree...

that's why I say I'm gonna be working to get more dems in congress... that's where the real battle will be. More dems better for Kerry and worse for Bush. I think Congressman are more important than Presidents.... but that's just my opinion.






and don't forget to check out the best "uNoFficIaL" Democratic Underground slang Dictionary on the web today:
http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[LiberalFighter]

32. There is a difference between...

voting for war against Iraq based on CIA intelligence and based on cherry picked CIA intelligence.

And utilizing UN support vs going it alone.

[DemBones DemBones]

16. IMO, Democrats should not be saying things like

"Kerry is going to lose."

Do Dean supporters actually want four more years of Bush?

You guys are not the only ones whose candidate has not done well in the primaries, but it seems you are the ones ready to throw in the towel and give Bush the country.

Wake up! A guy who voted for IWR is NOT as bad as the guy who gave phony intelligence to Congress to convince them Saddam had become more dangerous, to justify the war he wanted.

[Catch22Dem]

18. hear hear (n/t)

[Democat]

22. There are a number of DU members who want Bush to win to punish Kerry

Kerry got more votes than their candidate, so to punish Kerry, some posters want Bush to win in November.

[AmyStrange]

40. I don't want Bush to win in November...

of course the satisfaction of being right might make me feel good for a few days, but the truth is that I don't want to be right. I really want to be proven wrong.

The impression I get from all my sources is that right now Kerry (and Edwards) are leading in the polls and I remember a lot of polls over the last year and a half...




and don't forget to check out the best "uNoFficIaL" Democratic Underground slang Dictionary on the web today:
http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

49. Hmmm...

Why should we not say that we think Kerry's going to lose if we feel it's so? Saying that I don't think he's going to win doesn't mean I won't vote for him if he's the nominee. Jesus...

I am getting really sick of this argument. You may have to accept the possibility that Dean supporters (or, as you like to put it, "you guys") are not some faceless group of automatons intent on destroying the Democratic party. I personally was pretty sure Kerry wouldn't be able to beat Bush before I ever even heard of Howard Dean. I'll vote for him if he gets the nomination, as I believe most Dean supporters would. Howard Dean himself said he was going to, and urged his supporters to do the same. Why is this so difficult to understand?

[Catch22Dem]

17. What I don't get is:

Why does everyone call it "preceived" electability? Kerry and Edwards are all that is left. Why? Because the others have done so poorly in the primaries. That's not "perceived" that's reality. The reality is, these guys have to win their own party. If you can't win your party, you can't win a presidential election. Plain and simple, and there's nothing "preceived" about it. You can blame it on the media, the repukes, stupid voters, me, or anyone else, but that won't change the facts. These guys haven't appealed to enough Democrats. What makes you think they're electable? Hey, I'm as ideological as anyone, but I also know reality when I see it.

[still_one]

20. Bravo

[AmyStrange]

23. you are right

we shall see in November whether he is electable or not and then it won't be perceived any longer,



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/

[Democat]

21. People like you are a self fulfilling prophecy

You throw away your vote to help Bush and then you say Bush will win.

If everyone was like you, of course Bush would win.

If everyone was like you, Republicans would win every election.

Bush will appoint Supreme Court justices if he is elected.

No Democrat is perfect, but you will only have two choices in November. The Democrat, or Bush. If you decide to help Bush, then don't complain when he kills more people and takes away more of your rights.

[AmyStrange]

25. you are right

people like me have so much power. If Bush wins Washington State, then you can complain ok... but trust me - that ain't gonna to happen.

I'm gonna be wasting my time trying to get more dems in Congress... that's where the real battles will be fought. More Dems in Congress the easier it is for Kerry and a lot harder for Bush...




and don't forget to check out the best "uNoFficIaL" Democratic Underground slang Dictionary on the web today:
http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[Democat]

27. Sorry I left out your comments on Congress

That is great that you are working on the Congressional races. :)

I still think that not voting for the Democrat is a major mistake.

[arewethereyet]

24. I disagree, I thnk he'll lose in Boston and we all win in November !

GO Edwards !

[Citizen Kang]

26. Kerry makes me very nervous

I think Edwards is infinately more electable than Kerry. He is a centrist from the South who has charisma and charm and good looks (it shouldnt matter but it does). Not to mention Kerry has alienated a significant amount of would be Democratic voters (hard core Dean fans).

Its seems like a done deal though. Kerry has been coronated and should he lose in November the finger pointing will be at those who left the Party because they think the Party left them, which will not solve the division within the party one bit.

[AmyStrange]

34. good analysis... [n/t]

Welcome to the DU...

n/t means no text in the message just in case but

don't forget to check out the best "uNoFficIaL" Democratic Underground slang Dictionary on the web today:
http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[oasis]

33. Dems aren't going to filibuster Supreme Court nominees for 4 years if Bush

returns to the White House. He will have the mandate of the people. Democrats will have to make far more compromises than they have in the past. This would include voting for a draft because our armed services will be depleted by then.

Uhe United nations is ready, willing and able to help a U.S. president who isn't George W. Bush.

[AmyStrange]

37. you may be right...

but it will certainly be easier for Kerry the "perceived" front runner. Just promise me you'll work just as hard for dems in Congress as you are for Kerry.

And, trust me - my state of Washington will not go Bush's way in November.




and don't forget to check out the best "uNoFficIaL" Democratic Underground slang Dictionary on the web today:
http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[oasis]

39. In a state with our 4 national representatives: Inouye, Akaka, Case and

Abercrombie win by large margins. There have been many elections when they had no serious GOP chalengers.

Hawaii's caucus is on the 24th. I'll be supporting Kerry and will encourage others to do so. I have a great deal of respect for the other candidates, but in the final game of the World Series, you go with your best pitcher.

[AP]

35. People who won't vote for a good dem who cares about the middle class

because of the war vote need to go down to bankruptcy court or the homeless shelter and get their shit together about what politics are all about.

One of the big reasons these Democrat voted the way they did was because they felt they were doing the right thing for Americans and desperately want to get elected in November so they can undo all the bullshit Bush has done.

Not only should we all be voting for whichever Dem is on the top of the ticket, we should be giving them money, and busting our asses making phone calls and going door to door.

[Nicholas_J]

36. It seems that the polls

simply do not agree with this prediction.
Polls taken over a broad spectrum of the American Public, including Democrats, Republicans, and Independents.

In fact, the two candidates who did not oppose the War in Iraq, and voted on the issue seem to have knocked everyone else out of the way. A string indiction that the public supported doing something about Saddam Hussein, just not the way George Bush handled it.

None of the Anti War candidates have done particularly well in any of the primaries, and at this point we are looking at a third of the states having voted at this point. Certainly, if opposition to the war, or even supposed opposition to the war were a major factor, one of the candidates who voted against the Iraq Resolution, or claimed they would have would have fared far better in the 17 states which have already made their choices. It is apparant that the electorate wanted a solution to Iraq, but again, not George Bush's solution.

This given the known choicesof the democratic electorate, a cnadidate who opposed the war totally would have given Bush a landslide, rather than giviing the fighting chance that the Democrats now have with either of the two candidates who did authorize some degree of force.

[AmyStrange]

38. We shall see in November Nicholas_J my friend...

which of us is right. That's what I like about elections. They decide things... well if you don't count 2000...




and don't forget to check out the best "uNoFficIaL" Democratic Underground slang Dictionary on the web today:
http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/



Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[JCMach1]

41. I will vote for the Dem. nominee regardless of who it is...

Remember Clinton would more than likely have voted for the IWR as well...

I am making my statement in the Primaries. I am currently supporting Kucinich.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. Hey Dave! Good to see ya!

I disagree with everything you said, but it's still good to see ya! :hi:

[AmyStrange]

43. Thanx Shocks...

us disagreeable types gotta stick together don'tcha think?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. I'll flame you anyday!

Do something about congress, fella...someone's gotta do it ;-)

[buddhamama]

45. @#$%^&*@

hey You ! i guess my begging and pleading for your return has finally paid off, or you were just bored... either way go to see ya'.
agree with you on the local involvement.
we cannot neglect the House or Senate.
rant away, my friend. :loveya: :hug: :loveya:

[AmyStrange]

58. ((((HUGz))))

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

47. I have to say that I agree

with your assessment that Kerry won't win if nominated. I don't think it will have anything to do with policy or his positions or anything that actually matters --- I just can't see the red states being particularly jazzed about him.

I'm fully aware of his credentials and his qualifications, but I'm becoming more and more convinced as the years pass that most of the people out there don't vote based on the issues, but rather on intangible personality attributes, such as "likeability".

I'm not trying to say that Kerry is unable to project human warmth or anything like that. It's just that while Bush's job approval rating is sinking in the polls, those same polls seem to me to indicate that people still like him personally, which to my thinking is a harder factor to beat.

[michaelwb]

53. Worrys about Kerry

I'm not a Dean Supporter or Kerry (or heck pretty much any of the candidates.) But I worry about Kerry on several counts.

First, some basic history. Gore in 2000. Gore was associated with a very popular President. He was already Vice-President (a fairly sweet place to be running from.) We were still within an 8 year period of peace and prosperity. He looked excellent on paper. In terms of domestic & foreign policy experience he was in a strong position. He should have handed Bush his ass.

Instead it was such a close race, that the irregularities (FRAUD!) in Florida and a biased SCOTUS were able to hand the election to Bush.
I think in large part what hurt Gore was his perceived stiffness and being apparently too in his head. He didn't come across as likeable, while Bush did.

If you look at the television era Presidential elections whoever comes across as more likeable, personable wins. Period.

Most people don't seek deeper understanding of the issues. Most candidates race toward the center trying to appear moderate, which makes distinguishing the policy differences harder. And the press focuses inordinately on appearance and style (read personable) issues and avoids policy discussions.

And I think that the press blatantly picks who they like and dislike based on high schoolish bias and then treats the candidates accordingly. This was incredibly obvious in the 2000 election.
Given that I question what makes Kerry supporters think that someone who resembles Gore with the same good on paper, but bad on style characteristics would beat Bush. Especially since Bush is the incumbent which is a very strong position to be, despite the state of the war & the economy. You just need a little upturn in the economy or good news abroad to drastically change the polls. Heck, it doesn't even have to be true, just close enough to the election.

Second, I have to wonder if the Democrats are being misguided in the veteran angle with Kerry versus Bush's potentially AWOL status. Frankly I think Dems are running in the past.

In the 50s, 60s & early 70s, being a vet was an excellent selling point because thanks to World War II & Korea, a significant portion of the population was either veterans or had close relatives who were. But in the 90s on that has shifted dramatically.

When you look at our recent elections you see the eroding of that vet-centric voting pattern. Clinton didn't serve, Bush was just National Guard (most of our current White House folks are distinctly not veterans), Cheney didn't serve, and Gore was just the press service.

Being a decorated war hero didn't help McCain survive against Bush. Then look at the Cleland race. A decorated war hero with missing limbs from combat, incumbent loses to a non-veteran who challenged Cleland's Patriotism!

I think in the long run the AWOL issue won't hurt Bush as much as people think. It may be partly because many are tired of who served and who didn't in Vietnam discussion. But if you want the vet-centrism. Focus instead on how Bush is slashing services to vet and service people right now. How underserved and supported the troops in Iraq are right now. Remind folks of how we are losing ground in Afghanistan, etc.

Finally, there's one other thing that concerns me about Kerry. And frankly, I've been thinking about this for a while, but I've not been posting because it's one of those thing you don't talk about. It's the thing Dems have a blind spot about. Why is it we can talk about discrimination and racism as being strong forces in society, but pretend that such problems don't exist at the voting booth?

I strongly suspect that Rove will do to Kerry what was done to McCain in South Carolina. For folks who don't recall, McCain was ahead in the polls in South Carolina. Until the Bush machine went full force there.

One of the elements that could never be directly traced to Bush, but has all the earmarking of Rove, was the whisper campaign about McCain having a "non-white" child. There were massive calling campaign pretending to be polls talking about it. I won't claim that is the only factor but it was I suspect a strong one.

Remember even in a national campaign you don't need a majority of the people to be closet racists. You don't even need a majority in any one state. You just need a strong enough faction in borderline states to shift the election.

Remember Kennedy was the ONLY non-Protestant President or Vice-President in US history. And I still know folks in parts of the country that have problems with that. Remember that the majority of the US House & Senate is Christian, and Protestant Christian at that.
I suspect that Rove will attack Kerry secretly through a whisper campaign about him being half Jewish. I worry that there is still enough anti-Semitism in key areas for that to be a factor.
Within the past year the Boston Globe (one of the more liberal US papers) ran a whole series on Kerry being half Jewish. There were columns saying he was pretending to be Irish when he was really Jewish. How can we trust him when he isn't who he appears to be, etc. It was pretty offensive.

Recently I saw a column in a New York paper (I'll see if I can find a link) where it mentioned in the first paragraph about Kerry being half Jewish. Then later in the article talked about his charitable donations (when do you ever see the press talk about a candidate's charitable donations) and commented repeatedly on how "stingy" they were. I almost put my fist through my computer screen.

Now, I'm not saying this is any reason for Kerry not to be the candidate (frankly I worry about the personable thing a whole lot more.) But I think that folks shouldn't be surprised if this starts bubbling below the surface more and becomes a factor. I think that there should be some awareness of how to undercut this before Rove really gets moving.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

54. That's it in a nutshell for me.

That's pretty much how I feel about it. On paper, Kerry has everything going for him, but if the last few years have taught me anything it's the following:

1. People don't vote based on policies or issues
2. People vote based on extremely superficial bullshit
3. People vote based on effective smear campaigns
4. People would rather vote for a dumb guy than a smart guy (the "egghead" factor")

I have to constantly remind myself not to give the average American voter too much credit for intelligence, and I also have to remind myself that the discussions we have here on DU bear no resemblance to the discussions regular people have. If anyone reading this is skeptical, I remind you of the three words on everyone's mind when David Kay's report came out: Janet Jackson's tit.

[AmyStrange]

57. Thanx for putting it in a nutshell...

it's basicly what I see happening also,


Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

63. Yep.

No big deal, no hatred of the man or anything like that. I just can't imagine he'll appeal to enough independents and moderate Republicans to tip the scales in our favor.

[AmyStrange]

56. All excellent points...

and I agree with most of everything of what you said.

The problem is most of the people voting in the nomination process don't understand this and are voting for "perceived" electability. In my opinion, a vote for Kerry now is a vote for Bush in November.

In November, y'all will see I was right and since Washington State will go for Kerry no matter what I do, don't bother blaming or making me feel guilty when Bush wins,


Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/

[Walt Starr]

48. I can't agree more

but I would add I believe that will happen regardless of the VP choice.

I'll still hold my nose and vote for the Dem, but I am preparing myself for another four years of the CIC(Chimp in chief).

[vet_against_Bush]

50. Edwards is the best option, n/t

[fob]

52. Since you will withold your vote for the Dem Nominee if it's

Kerry or Edwards, I call for a DUer boycott of visiting the websites you list.

This election is too important to take your vote and go home because of one vote by the nominee. I am not thrilled by a YES vote on IWR, but I'm even less excited about a LAME DUCK bush*!

It's also a little bit disingenuous to grade on the IWR vote because not ALL the candidates were in a position to actually VOTE on it. I believe those that said they would have voted NO, if they were in the position(congress), but it's really an open question if they would. The only ones running that DID vote NO were Kucinich and Graham, Graham's out and Kucinich polls at 1-3%(sadly).

Vote for the Democratic Nominee, period. That is the minimum committment expected(by me of fellow DUers), call it ABB if you want, but do it.

Disclosure: FOB will vote Sharpton in primaries,but WILL vote for the Dem Nominee!

[AmyStrange]

55. What I do won't matter...

because Washington State won't go to Bush. You can trust me on that, and anyone who knows anything about Washinton State knows I am correct here.

You can boycott my website all you want. No skin off my nose, because you won't be hurting me at all... all you will be hurting are the parents and loved ones of all the missing persons in the world.


Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/