Remember Dean's desire to attract the Confederate flag decal guys?

[beaconess]

When he said he wanted to be the candidate of the guys with the Confederate flag decals on their pickup trucks?

Black folks - and some others - were deeply offended and called Dean on this. And we were immediately and harshly set upon by many Dean supporters on DU who told us that: 1) Dean's efforts to reach out to bigots was not a reflection of his personal views or an indication that he was insensitive to racism and how DARE we even SUGGEST such a thing; 2) if we wanted to win, we had to broaden our tent; and 3) oh, stop whining and shut up already.

I hope that any of those Dean supporters who took that view and now are furious with Barack Obama for sharing the stage with a certain gospel singer might now better understand how we felt then.

[ecstatic]

1. black folks weren't offended... it was the other candidate's supporters

who generated a faux outrage over the issue (and began crashing his events in Confederate gear, which was pretty desperate, btw).

[beaconess]

7. Thank you for speaking for all black people, but some of us can speak for ourselves.

I am a black folk and I was EXTREMELY offended. And so were many others whom I know.

Your post demonstrates exactly the kind of attitude we were treated to then and is the subject of my post.

[ecstatic]

14. Maybe I'm just a realist

KKK guys often vote against their best interests because they think somehow repugs can put a "stop" to blacks. Hell, I can't stand KKK types but if they're poor, living in a 1 room shack, they probably should switch their vote to Dems, because Dems are more likely to set up policies that can help them rise to the next rung in the economic ladder.

Dean's comments were taken completely out of context to divide and conquer. I wasn't offended at all, but you're right---I can only speak for myself. The bottom line is, everyone is not going to get along all the time--it's human nature. But we have to all figure out a way to work together to make this place better for everyone.

[beaconess]

18. I don't think you're a realist - I think you aren't getting it!

KKK guys {homophobes} often vote against their best interests because they think somehow repugs can put a "stop" to blacks {homosexuals}. Hell, I can't stand KKK types {homophobes} but if they're poor, living in a 1 room shack, they probably should switch their vote to Dems, because Dems are more likely to set up policies that can help them rise to the next rung in the economic ladder.

Dean's comments {Obama's participation in this event} were taken completely out of context to divide and conquer. I wasn't offended at all, but you're right---I can only speak for myself. The bottom line is, everyone is not going to get along all the time--it's human nature. But we have to all figure out a way to work together to make this place better for everyone.

See the parallels? And if it is wrong for Obama to include a homophobe in a campaign event, it was wrong for Dean to try to attract bigots into the party. And if it was ok for Dean to do what he did, then folks need to let Obama off the hook.

Bottom line - many blacks were as grossly offended by Dean's efforts to reach out to bigots as gays are about Obama's attempts to include a homophobe in a campaign event. It's extremely troubling that so many people on DU are so quick to empathize with the feelings of our gay DUers (and rightly so) while turning a deaf ear to the very similar, and just as deeply-felt feelings of black DUers.

And even more troubling is that this is not an isolated incident. I often find that many folks on DU are extremely insensitive and sometimes outright hostile on issues of race. It's very sad.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

2. I think you would find only a tiny overlap of people who were cool with one and not the other

[madfloridian]

4. Consider me one of them. They are not the same.

The context was different, there is no comparison.

[beaconess]

8. No - the situations are quite comparable.

It's unfortunate that you apparently can't see the similarities.

[jefferson_dem]

10. Major Dean supporter.

SSIA.

[madfloridian]

23. Now this is the first time I have gotten in on this issue.

And Damn what an arrogant way to treat people.

Dean wanted to represent them because they were voting against their best interest. He made a lot of good points.

I am really stunned at the way i am being attacked for posting that th two situaions are different.

[beaconess]

28. I haven't seen anyone attack you for saying the situations are different (even though they're not)

We've questioned the fact that you offered the views of ONE black person as apparent proof that the views of OTHER black people are meritless.

[madfloridian]

29. In a nasty and sarcastic way which I did not deserve.

I think things are getting overheated here since you are having to reach back to 2003.

[iverglas]

102. well, you attacked me; will that do?

In your post 96. Not only did you write an entire screed that had nothing to do with what I had said (I did none of the things you alleged I had done), you made allegations about me and what I think that are false.

Saying that one thing is an apple and another is an orange is not the same as offering a wholehearted endorsement of the orange.

[beaconess]

41. I wish you were right - but I don't think so.

[madfloridian]

3. From Condi Rice's cousin....a request to Dean NOT to back down.

I am really surprised you would compare the two. They are two different situations entirely.

http://www.alternet.org/story/17138/
Confederate Flap: Stand Firm, Howard Dean

By Constance L. Rice, LA Times. Posted November 7, 2003.

"Howard Dean wants to represent angry white Confederate flag-wavers. He even quotes Martin Luther King Jr. in doing so. And in a televised debate Tuesday he refused to say he was sorry for starting this tempest.

Well, Dr. Dean, you may have clumsily launched this issue, but keep at it and keep quoting, because you're right.

No, this is not a missive from a Southern rebel driving a Confederate flag-festooned F-150 half-ton to a Civil War reenactment. It's from the great-granddaughter of slaves -- and slave owners. A civil rights lawyer, no less, who knows full well the toxic pain and pride tangled in all symbols of the slavocracy known as Dixie.

Dean is right for three reasons.

First, he's right politically. Without a vision big enough to embrace Southern white men -- angry or not -- this country cannot be diverted from its current path toward corporation-focused, downwardly mobile plutocracy and turned back toward people-focused, upwardly mobile democracy.

Second, one of Martin Luther King's most profound insights came in his warning that to avoid elimination as the irrelevant unskilled, poor whites and poor blacks had to band together in a "grand alliance" and demand from politicians jobs, justice and opportunity for everyone."

[beaconess]

9. Well shut my mouth - Condi Rice's cousin thinks Dean was right and since she apparently speaks for

all black people, the rest of us just need to "SHUT UP AND GET OVER IT!"

Like I said . . .

[madfloridian]

20. You are really being ugly toward me, I posted an article well known at the time.

If you think I am racist or a bigot then just come out and say so.

Go ahead.

Dean's remarks were defended by many intelligent people of all colors, white, black yellow, orange, whatever.

This is becoming the ugliest place I have ever seen in my life.

[beaconess]

25. I don't think you're either a racist or a bigot. I DO think it's extremely bizarre for you

to offer a quote from ONE black person as proof that Dean's comments weren't offensive to BLACK PEOPLE.

Yes, Dean's comments were defended by many intelligent people of all colors. That does not mean that OTHER intelligent people were not offended by them - or that their offense was unwarranted.

A whole lot of white people LOVE George W. Bush, support his war and think Dick Cheney is a great man. But it would be ridiculous for me to offer a quote from Bill Kristol as proof that YOUR opposition to the Bush, Cheney and their war is without merit because some other white guy saw it differently.

[madfloridian]

27. I think it is bizarre that you are reacting so violently

to a very sensible statement.

I think it odd you had to reach back to 2003 to defend Obama.

[beaconess]

32. You have now accused me of reacting "violently," calling you a "bigot" and "defending" Obama

none of which I have done.

I think thou dost protest too much.

[madfloridian]

34. Well, you are getting attention.

A whole lot of it.

Constance Rice is a well-respected progressive person, and you really put her down.

[noiretextatique]

87. disagreeing with constance rice is not putting her down

and disagreeing with you is not being mean, violent, etc.

[independentpiney]

13. We're using Condis cousin as an appeal to authority?

can i say hypocritical?

[madfloridian]

21. Her cousin is well known and respected person. That is rude.

.

[Mass]

37. MadF did a disfavour to Connie Rice by presenting her as Condi's cousin and nothing else.

Here is her resume, and I have heard her many times on TV. She is a well known civil right activists and cares about people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constance_L._Rice

She is Condi Rice's second cousin. I do not know if you know your second cousins very well, but I hardly know most of them.

[madfloridian]

39. No, I just ASSUMED people knew about her.

But I betcha I won't assume anything here again.

:wow:

[beaconess]

40. I have a great deal of respect for Constance Rice - I think she's great

but she doesn't speak for all black people (nor has she ever claimed to). The fact that she wasn't offended by Dean's comments and thought his approach was reasonable is fine. But it's ridiculous to offer her up as proof that Dean's comments weren't - or shouldn't have been - offensive to many other blacks. Pointing that out in no way insults or diminishes Ms. Rice. It simply reminds those who need reminding that black people are just as diverse as everyone else and don't need to be told that our point of view is meaningless because some other black person feels differently.

[madfloridian]

42. Wow oh wow, I must be very ignorant.

If you are getting all that from what I posted, perhaps you need to do some examining of your sensitivity.

I am not usually that totally misunderstood.

[beaconess]

43. Why did you post Constance Rice's comments?

[madfloridian]

45. Because they were typical of many who defended him.

Why does it bother you so much?

I don't know nor do I care if you are black or white or whatever. I do care that you are really nitpicking about a very good article I posted.

You jumped me, you judged her.

Oh, you don't know me either. If you think I had ulterior motives read some of my journal posts.

I am backing off because you are really being unfair.

[beaconess]

51. But what did Rice's comments have to do with my point that many of us were offended?

Unless you believe that the fact that some black people defended Dean in any way diminishes the sense of offense that many other black people felt about it, Rice's comments were irrelevant to the discussion.

Would you think it appropriate to respond to a gay person who is up in arms about Barack Obama's gospel event by posting a comment from a gay person who defends Obama? Do you believe that fact that there may be some gay people out there who aren't offended by what Obama is doing means that other gay people are offended are somehow out of line?

It's really a shame that you feel that you're being picked on - since, of course, you are not. But you posted something on a discussion board and were challenged about it. Your only response since has been to accuse people of calling you names, claim we insulted Constance Rice, and insist that you have somehow been horribly victimized. That's unfortunate - what's even more unfortunate is that you haven't seemed to learn anything at all about why you were challenged in the first place.

[madfloridian]

53. Actually I have stood up against all kinds of bigotry on this board.

Sorry you never noticed.

[beaconess]

55. What does THAT have to do with this discussion?

"standing up to bigotry" is not a get-out-of-jail-free card that means you can't be challenged when someone thinks you're out of line. And you still have yet to offer a rational explanation for why you thought that Rice's comments were an appropriate response to a discussion about the fact that many blacks were offended by Dean's statement.

[madfloridian]

56. Oh, good lord.

You are acting prejudiced toward me now.

[AtomicKitten]

5. Holy sh*t, I had forgotten about that.

Excellent recall, mam.

[Capn Sunshine]

6. well I remember Dean saying guys with the flag decals might be open to reason

and that we shouldn't automatically put 'em in a box without trying to reach out and help them see the light.

But apparently all that got through to you was the Fox News version of that sentiment.
Hey, who owns Fox News?

[beaconess]

12. Yes - that's what he said. And those who defend Obama by making a similar argument

have been trashed on DU in the past few days.

Bottom line - even if you're not black, it would be nice if DUers tried to understand why Dean's approach was so offensive to many blacks, just as it would be nice if non-gay DUers tried to understand why Obama's approach may be offensive to many gay people.

For some reason, however, there seems to be an overwhelming sense that anyone who tries to defend Obama is an insensitive homophobe - or at least an insensitive misguided person who doesn't seem able to understand they are tolerating homophobia. Yet, when it comes to something that Dean said that was deeply offensive to many blacks, folks come out in droves to defend him, quote something that some black person said as proof that Dean's comments shouldn't be offensive to ANY black person, and suggest that we are just race-baiting whiners.

This is one of the reasons I'm becoming more and more disillusioned with DU - for all of folks' claims to liberalism, there seems to be serious strain of racial insensitivity running through the ranks.

[Capn Sunshine]

16. I think you're just seeing America

racism is so ingrained in everything that many don't realize it when they are.

[intheflow]

64. Agreed.

We don't teach multi-culturalism very well in the schools, most of our school curricula are decidedly slanted toward a white world-view. If your family doesn't understand racism and white privilege to teach you about it, and they're not teaching it in schools, it's not surprising people are still putting confederate flags on everything from trucks to bikinis. Doesn't mean it's ok--just another example of how FUBAR our country is.

[cuke]

66. I think it's bigger than that

I think there are more and more reactionaries and IMO it's the result of all the propoganda we've been fed. With all the conflicting info out there, it's hard to know what's accurate and what's not and when you can't make decisions based info, you end up relying on your gut feelings, which leads to more reactionary behavior

On DU, we have lots of info, but we have a range of opinions on how to interpret that data, and in the discussions, people use the same facts to support opposite conclusions. If facts don't convince people (who have used the facts for other conclusions) then that leaves you with feelings. And seeing the same facts used to justify opposite conclusions produces some cognitive disssonance, which also can lead to reactionary behavior

[EffieBlack]

69. I'm finding this entire discussion very interesting

and I agree with you completely. What's amazing to me is that these people don't seem to even realize the mindset they're revealing.

[madfloridian]

26. Meet Constance Rice, whom you just insulted as well as insulting me.

http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/001251.html

She did not deserve that insult, and neither did I.

You do not know how I feel about the Obama issue, I just said they were different.

You are embarrassing yourself by inferring Constance Rice and I are bigots.

[beaconess]

35. And now you're accusing me of "insulting" Constance Rice and called HER a bigot?

You really need to take a breath. You're losing it.

[madfloridian]

36. You did insult her.

I have a right to disagree with you.

[noiretextatique]

88. you are being RIDICULOUS

no one "insulted" ms. rice...or you.

[EffieBlack]

71. I share your feelings completely

And I think there are plenty of us here who do.

[madfloridian]

24. Good point. Now I am a bigot, too.

Hot damn...me, the bigot.

[beaconess]

30. Oh, please - no one has called you a bigot.

For someone who is having as much trouble as you seem to be having understanding how anyone could be offended by Dean's comments, you seem to be awfully quick to take offense yourself - not to mention wrongly accuse others of slandering you.

Interesting.

[madfloridian]

33. Actually it was mostly white bigots who were offended by what Dean said.

They figured he had their number.

I have not weighed in on the Obama thing.

[Mass]

44. And you know that for a fact, of course.

Or are you bothered because she criticizes Dean?

BTW, I need to figure out how she insulted Constance Rice. And I am still trying to figure out why her relationship with Condi Rice is relevant to this thread? I may be dumb, but I cannot figure out the point.

[madfloridian]

46. I am not defending myself in this thread anymore.

This is just over board and nitpicking.

Go ahead and think whatever you wish to think.

This was a stretch to post this thread to begin with .

Are people so sensitive that I can not post anything about a black person without being one myself?

Gee, I must be a bigot. you are all implying it.

[Mass]

47. Sorry if you are so sensitive that asking for explanations on your previous posts

is offensive. I do not think you are a bigot. I am trying to understand what you are trying to say. I asked to simple questions and you became all irritated.

And, even if I am not sure why it should be relevant, I am not black either. I am just asking explanations about what you posted.

[madfloridian]

50. Simple LOADED questions. Questions that have no answer.

No matter what I say, you two will accuse me of something.

Think about your attitude. I am no bigot, yet I am the one you jumped on.

WHY is that? Ask yourselves.

[Mass]

52. I did not jump on you. I answered to a comment that was offensive for Connie Rice.

I have no clue why you presented her this way. fwiw, I disagree both with you and beaconess. I think that Dean was wrong and Obama was wrong and two wrongs do not make a right.

[madfloridian]

54. I think Dean was right, and Obama was using party strategy.

In fact, here it is.

http://www.third-way.com/issues/show/23

Talking points and all.

There is one on abortion, one on national security. All of our Democrats repeat these policies.

[beaconess]

58. Just for the record, I have not defended Obama in this matter.

I have just simply pointed out that it's a shame that there does not seem to be similar empathy for black DUers who were offended by Dean's comments. I have not commented on Obama's situation - but I do have a great deal of empathy for those - especially gay people - who are offended by it since I don't think it's up to me to tell other people what should and should not offend them. People are obviously upset and angry and have every right to be - and I believe it's cruel and insensitive for anyone else to try to diminish that pain and anger just because they may not feel the same way.

When Dean made his comments, I was furious and deeply offended, as were many other blacks. Sadly, we were treated on DU like we were a bunch of race-baiting crybabies who just weren't sophisitcated enough to understand the brilliant strategy that Dr. Dean was trying to implement. The reaction was insulting and revealed an insensitivity among many DUers that I found to be extremely troubling. And it obviously is still prevalent. For some reason, many DUers who are so quick to find offense in just about anything (as evidenced right here in this thread) are just as quick to dismiss similar feelings in other people just because THEIR ox isn't being gored at the moment.

Very sad.

[madfloridian]

61. For two years here, my hubby and I defended the gay community

when the Southern Baptists, Catholics, and YES..the black churches here tried to get laws passed to lessen their rights.

We went to protests in front of a Baptist megachurch, we did what we could to stop them. We called the pastor of the SBC whom we knew and asked them to stop this discrimination, and we were told we needed to pray more. Then he made homophobic comments.

But I am learning one thing at DU....it doesn't matter. Our actions don't matter.

[noiretextatique]

89. i hope you are learning that people can and do disagree with you

and it doesn't mean they are accusing you of anything.

[madfloridian]

93. No, I don't see that in this thread. I see accusations.

Sorry but that is how it is.

[incapsulated]

65. What you remember is true

I remember all this. The attitude was similar.

Whether you disagree is one thing. It's a matter of respect, really.

[incapsulated]

11. Actually, this reminded me of all that

However, Dean never had people actually waving confederate flags on stage at his campaign event.

The idea was the same but all he did was speak about the need to reach out to those voters.

(I wasn't a Deanie btw, heh)

[beaconess]

15. He didn't have confederate flags at an event -he just invited the guys who wave them into my party!

A much worse thing, in my book.

Yes - he spoke about the need to reach out to those voters. But a whole lot of black people don't want the Democratic party to reach out to those voters - any more than gay people want Obama to reach out to homophobes.

[incapsulated]

17. Well I was on record at that time I believe

As saying I despise the confederate flag and everything it stands for, I'm half black.

I understand what you are trying to say.

The thing is, I also understand what both Dean and Obama were trying to do.

It's HOW you do it. It's one thing to reach out to people and open their minds, it's another to just want their votes.

The thing is black churches that have prejudice against gays already are in that tent, they will and do vote for democrats. And those rebel flag decal guys voted for Clinton, too.

You can't love everyone in your party. But you don't necessarily accept them without question, either.

[beaconess]

19. Actually a lot of folks in those anti-gay black churches DON'T vote Democratic

They vote Republican - as do many of their ministers. A big part of the reason is the anti-gay agenda. Another factor was the bribes - I mean Faith-Based Initiative funding - that many of these churches and pastors received from the Bush Administration.

[incapsulated]

22. But they do

You can't make generalizations, there are PLENTY of black churches that vote for democrats and if you scratched the surface you would find similar attitudes.

What did someone say about canvassing those neighborhoods and they had NO on gay marriage amendment and Kerry signs right in the same yard.

[beaconess]

38. I hear you

It was absolutely unbelievable to see so many people - white and black - who fell into the gay marriage trap the Republicans set!

[madfloridian]

31. Reaching back to 2003 to defend a candidate in 2007

Rather odd.

[western mass]

48. So Obama + bigotry is OK, is it?

No matter how you dance around the subject, that's what you're saying.

Obama shows yet again his judgment can't be trusted.

Anybody remember Obama & Joe Lieberman?

[beaconess]

59. What in the hell are you talking about?

[FredScuttle]

49. For. Christ's. Sake.

What's next? The Clenis overpowered a Jewish girl in the Oval Office, so Obama should get a pass?

Face it....your guy fucked up, royally. Reaching back in the annals of time will not diminsh how bad he looks to those of us that were willing to give him a serious look.

[beaconess]

60. Wow - why don't you first READ my OP before you try to weigh in on it?

[FredScuttle]

62. I did and your post is ridiculous

equating the Dean Confederate flag "controversy" with Obama refusing to cut loose a homophobe from his event is not even an apples-to-oranges comparison....it's apples to fucking coconuts.

[EffieBlack]

67. You can't see the parallel between willingness to tolerate racists for political gain

and a willingness to tolerate homophobes for political gain?

I sure see the similarity. It's really sad, but very instructive, that you and some others here are blind to it.

[FredScuttle]

73. "tolerate racists for political gain"

Never happened. Nice attempt at revising history, but our memories are a little better than that.

Nice to see that you admit that Obama is courting homophobes to score political points.

[EffieBlack]

76. The fact that you don't see that wanting to be "the candidate of the guys with

Confederate flag decals on their pickup trucks" is not reaching out to racists for political gain is very interesting.

[FredScuttle]

78. Remind me again where Dean appeared at a concert with Charlie Daniels

I'll be waiting over here.

[EffieBlack]

83. He didn't appear with Charlie Daniels - he just wanted all of Charlie Daniels' fans to vote for him

[FredScuttle]

92. No....he said that Charlie Daniels' fans had been voting against their self-interests for years

but thanks for confirming that this analogy is weak horseshit.

[madfloridian]

57. This is a very sad post, I wish I had stayed out of it.

I would say this post is filled with all kinds of prejudice, reverse and otherwise.

[FredScuttle]

63. I will grant you one thing re: Dean-Obama comparison

It really sucks to watch your chosen candidate's campaign implode

[EffieBlack]

68. She never said that Obama is her candidate. In fact she said she doesn't have a candidate

It's incredible to see how many people here have gotten so angry, hostile and defensive and are making all kinds of outrageous accusations just because she pointed out what should be obvious to any clear-thinking person.

This all says an awful lot about the mindsets of some of the people who are supposedly "liberal."

[FredScuttle]

77. Like I need you to judge my "liberal" bona fides?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I did not mean that the OP was an Obama supporter, although I can see how one can interpret that from my post. I was trying to say that I understand, somewhat, the panic, denial and frenzy Obama supporters are going through because their golden boy is screwing the pooch in a very public way.

[terrya]

70. I'm white and I was offended by that.

We all know what the Confederate flag represents. You'd have to be incredibly, record making stupid not to know the significance of that flag.

Howard Dean was wrong in trying to do that.

[lojasmo]

72. If people were offended by Dean's comments.....

They were unaware of the context of the statements, or faking outrage because they were schilling for a different candidate.

The two situations are also not comparable. Obama is using a known hatemongering bigot to forward his campaign.

Dean said that southern guys with C.F. on their pickup trucks are BETTER SERVED by the Democratic party because THEY NEED HEALTHCARE TOO.

Congratulations on one of the most disingenuous posts of the year! I think you're tied with Wyldwolf.

[EffieBlack]

74. You can't possibly be serious!

Or maybe you are - which is very sad.

Your eagerness to excuse Dean's misguided attempt to become the candidate of "hatemongering bigots" by attacking those of us who were offended with your amazingly arrogant observation that every one of us must have either been ignorant or "schilling for a different candidate" (and then accusing the OP of being disingenuous and in cahoots with another DUer) makes her point almost as eloquently as she did.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noiretextatique]

90. agreed eom

[madfloridian]

85. Thank you for posting that.

This is one of the ugliest threads ever at DU and everyone is just letting here get away with it.

[Apollo11]

75. Did Dean share a stage with a racist singer?

Because if he did then you might have a point.

I like Obama a lot, from his foreign policy speech in Chicago to his appearance on Jay Leno.

But you don't share a stage with someone who preaches hate and denies equality.

"I'm reaching out to evangelicals" is not a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.

[EffieBlack]

82. I don't know - since I don't know the personal views of every person that Dean ever stood next to

I do know, however, that he said he wanted to invite a whole pack of bigots into the Democratic Party - bigots who do not vote Democratic BECAUSE they don't like the Democrats' views on the social order and are willing to vote against their economic interests in order to align themselves with a party that shares their views on race.


"I'm reaching out to evangelicals" is not a "get out of jail free card." Neither is "I'm reaching out to bigots."

[sampsonblk]

79. Not me! That whole thing was a sham.

Dean was absolutely right about this. His words were misconstrued, much the same as were Clinton's comments about Republicans appearing stronger on national security.

Dean's efforts were not to reach out to bigots, although I support that 100%. His efforts were to broaden the appeal of this party, and to not throw anyone away. Every single person in this world has value, every person can learn, improve and contribute. Everyone. Its an extension of Dr King's dream.

On edit: this current flap is a bit overplayed, but its not a total sham, in my opinion. In this case, there is a specific person who has made specific comments that are derogatory, to put it mildly. So there's a difference.

[janx]

81. Dean's organization was one of the first to back Obama for his Senate run..

This is a pathetic attempt to revise history and create division. Partisanship knows no bounds, I guess...:shrug:

[PATRICK]

84. Make your

analogies less contemporary I guess is the lesson here. I think the mojo of a major campaign makes this kind of action inevitable. They are too TIRED to critically think of what they are doing. One might even hope the pressure reveals the TRUE candidate and then we are dismayed at the odd results. As one who has shot both barrels into my kindly mouth on more than one critical occasion I think you first might sepnd more time on the deliberate trash talking of the GOP which is receiving no critical media attention or seen as anything significant in their campaigning. it is amazing what depths they have to sink to to actually lose votes because of it. The fall of McCain is awesome and he is STILL in the race despite a series of political horrors that no Democrat would have lasted ten minutes after committing.

You HAVE to be cool with this stuff or you risk getting had becuase your superman is not a shining knight on a horse of diverse color- so the bad guy "honestly" wins the rulership over Amerika. if this were a fair election it would have to matter these samll flaws because it would be more prone to critical judgment and not desperate, inane, trap beset circus.

ALL our Dems have to be protected from this and criticized in house for doing sommething objectionable or plain dumb. Descending into a shark frenzy does what exactly for any decent goal? And yes, besides our particular perfect candidates surely we are all perfectly non-homophobic and non-racist. Could we get a little real. Our real enemies want to toast us all, in defeat and physically after. Their determination IS perfect.

[EffieBlack]

94. It's very interesting that when it comes to this issue involving race

so many people seem completely unwilling to recognize that, even if they don't agree with them, some people were genuinely offended by Dean's comments. Instead, they directly, and in some instances, viciously, attack the people who were offended.

The irony is that some of these same people who are attacking people for having the nerve to be offended by Dean's comment are themselves deeply offended - in fact they are hopping mad - that some people interpret Dean's comments differently than they do. Apparently they have every right to be offended by what WE say, but WE have no right to be offended by what DEAN says.

This is not unusual. Black people are used to being told that our feelings are unwarranted, especialy if our opinion differs from that of white people (whose opinions are treated as the norm, with anything that diverges from it treated with suspicion and often outright derision).

The posts in this thread only highlight that attitude in stark relief.

[RubyDuby in GA]

86. As a former Dean supporter and married to a man who could belong

to the Sons of the Confederacy, but chooses not to, I am offended not by Obama's sharing a stage with a self-loathing closet case, I am offended by your thinly veiled accusation that all people who can be traced back to that flag are racists who keep their Klan robes pressed and ready to go in the back of their closets.

[noiretextatique]

91. that is what the flag means to most black people

who believe it is a symbol of racism and white supremacy.
i understand that it may not mean that to white southerners, but that is how most black people tend to view it.

[iverglas]

95. did he fly a Confederate flag at his campaign appearances?

I think I've just found the perfect answer to this extremely flawed analogy.

[beaconess]

96. No - that's an extremely poor answer to my post - but a very telling one

Why is it that you - and several others - are twisting yourself into knots trying to prove that those of us who were deeply offended by what Dean said have no right to feel the way we do? It's almost as if you and others think that pointing out that someone has been insensitive about a racial issue is a personal attack on you. Certainly, the whining and moaning and accusations of "you called me a bigot! You insulted Constance Rice!" "You attacked me!" from some other posters simply because I said that Dean's comments offended many blacks, gives that impression.

You have every right to believe that Dean's comments - and his outreach strategy - were not insensitive or offensive. But your refusal to even try to understand that other people were offended and that our impressions about what he said are just as valid as yours is very interesting.

The lack of empathy for what people, many of whom have different experiences, impressions and perspectives than you do, feel about a situation is pretty amazing. DU is filled with posts from people expressing offense and outrage about all manner of things. But for some reason, when a black poster expresses offense about something related to race, all hell breaks loose.

Apparently, black folk on DU aren't supposed to be offended by anything unless white people are offended, too. Go figure.

[iverglas]

98. you seem to have missed at least half my point

and all of my other posts.

I think that Obama's choice to share a platform with McClurkin and the other questionable performers in this tour thing is absolutely unacceptable. And I have said so at considerable length. (I'm Canadian, and thus not involved, but I can tell you that if the right-wing party up here did this -- it being the only party that would even think of doing it -- a lot of people would be disgusted.)

I see an important distinction between Obama's carefully planned and publicized choice and Dean's less orchestrated words: Dean did not invite people who had publicly and repeatedly incited hatred of African-Americans to be the face of his campaign.

I also see an important distinction between the people whose votes Dean wanted to attract and the people whose face Obama is putting on his campaign: Dean was not talking about people who had publicly and repeatedly incited hatred of African-Americans.

I can certainly understand that some people in the African-American community would have felt rejected by Dean when he said that (especially to a virtually all-white audience; it might have been wiser to say it to a largely black audience, by way of asking them directly to reach out to people whose true interests lie on the same side of the fence as theirs -- it being in everyone's interests to get them to see that).

I expect that some people in the GLBT community would feel the same way if Obama, speaking to an audience of straight people probably including a good number of homophobes, said that he wanted to get homophobic bigots to vote for him. (How about if he said it to a largely GLBT audience?)

But that isn't what Obama is doing. He's putting the face of bigotry on his campaign, he's giving a platform to bigots, not just asking for their votes; and it really is just different from what Dean did. If Dean had flown the Confederate flag to draw in racist voters, that would have been analogous.

That's why I call the analogy false. It's possible to criticize what Dean did, and to criticize what Obama is doing. They just aren't the same.

And now it's my turn to be offended:

The lack of empathy for what people, many of whom have different experiences, impressions and perspectives than you do, feel about a situation is pretty amazing.

I don't believe we've met, and I don't believe you have any basis for your gratuitous characterization of me, which is in reality quite the opposite of reality. If you have a star, give it a workout. If not, try google.

Here: on hate crimes.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1686463&mesg_id=1687089
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=146742

That might help.

[janx]

103. "Black folk"

right...

:rofl:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

97. There's are two big differences between the two.

1: Dean said "vote for me", i.e. he called on them to endorse *his* views; Obama appeared on stage with McClurkin; I don't think he *is* meaning to endorse McClurkin's views, but I worry that's the way it will be taken.

2: "Guys with confederate flags on their pickup trucks" are not in the same category as McClurkin. If Dean had said "members of the KKK", that would be comparable.

[Karenina]

99. Donald

1: The concert hasn't OCCURED yet so your use of the past tense is incorrect. It is still unclear to me whether Obama will be at the venue or not.

[beaconess]

100. Now it is you who is stretching it

One does not need to be in the KKK to be a bigot. There are plenty of racists and bigots running around with confederate flag decals on their pickup trucks who don't belong to the KKK. And there are plenty of bigots who wouldn't dream of displaying the confederate flag.

Also, as troubling as his views may be, McClurklin is not the equivalent of a KKK member. The Klan is a terrorist group based on racial hatred, violence and massive resistance. While McClurklin has a bigoted view of homosexuality, he has not condoned violence or hatred against gay people or anyone else. His view that homosexuality is a curse is much more in line with those well-meaning bigots who don't hate black people, but just think that we're not as intelligent or not as well-socialized as or more violent than white people. Sort of like James Watson, the Nobel Prize-winning evolutionist who recently made a fool of himself and lost his job after he revealed that he thinks Africans are less intelligent that white people. Not a violent man, not an outwardly hateful person, not someone who is running around burning crosses, hanging nooses or drooling vitriol toward blacks and not someone who would ever advocate physical violence against anyone. Not a Klansman. Just your everyday, run of the mill bigot.

[Karenina]

104. Entertain these thoughts with me, Beaconess

"McClurklin is not the equivalent of a KKK member."

The "ex-gay" thing REALLY set me off. :nuke: It is vile, vicious and well-recognized. What also annoys me is that O's campaign could have EASILY employed a Take 6 or Fred Hammond, treated the community to some STELLAR MUSIC, grabbed the Gospel vote and been off to the next stop smelling like a rose. HOW THE FUCK DID THIS HAPPEN? :freak: It's a MULTI demographic offense. Oh, to be a fly on the wall of the office a week ago and buzzing around backstage tonight!!! :rofl: NOT!!!!! :rofl:

Smell... hmmm... Homophobia, demonization and violence, (psychic if not physical) plus a thin biblical justification fomenting a massive political attack against those seeking equal protection under the law.

Donnie's "Reverend Ex-Gay (Who is Clay?)" moniker is a symbol for the "exorcism" these groups promulgate to the demise of too many.
It is EMBLEMATIC of RW behaviour and hypocrisy. Indeed, Donnie's resume includes singing his praises to *dauphin.

My question is, HOW MANY DU READERS KNOW that one mustn't mix ammonia and bleach, or products containing them? Or that potatoes with a tinge of green on the skin have not been properly handled?

James Watson promulgated an idea that the scientific community and WE, WHO GET IT found offensive enough to push the old coot into retirement. Gott sei Dank!

Let's see what happens with Donnie. His booking has hurt Obama in ways that cannot be calculated. Obama HAS been the most open to jumping over the "marriage" word "at some future date." He's aware of the legal details. Neither he, nor his staff were apparently aware of how RADIOACTIVE the "ex-gay thingie is over a VERY LARGE DEMOGRAPHIC. :wtf:

[iverglas]

101. I just got the vapours

We agree. In fact, if you read the third and fourth paragraphs of my post 98, you'll probably think I was copying from your paper.

(Overlooking your incorrect tense, of course -- but keeping in mind that if McClurkin isn't in the show, it won't be because he got struck down by appendicitis, and that he would have been in the show had it not become more politically expedient to evict him than it was to embrace him.)

[Karenina]

105. Check out the "post-game" report.