Dean folks here's a message from Kucinich...

[mac2]

I want to congratulate Gov. Dean on his campaign, his energy, his integrity, and his courage.

I am proud that Gov. Dean stands with me on so many issues: the urgency of bringing our troops home from Iraq, the critical need to provide health care to all our citizens, jobs, education, and hope for a better future. Together, we stand beneath that progressive banner, and, whatever role he chooses to play in the continuing dialogue, I intend to keep those dreams alive in my campaign.

To his supporters, I would say this: "If you love Howard Dean, you'll love Dennis Kucinich, too." If you are in touch with Dean supporters, please share this message with them.

We embrace and echo Gov. Dean's challenge to continue working for change in the Democratic Party and to take back the government of this nation so that it works for the benefit of its citizens, not its self-serving special interests and entrenched political power structure.

His grassroots supporters, like ours, represent a remarkable diversity of ages, races, and creeds - all united in the belief that government must change, and CAN change, if we commit ourselves, heart and soul, to that effort.

We must not abandon that vision, but rather, take it to the streets, to the meeting places, to the ballot boxes, and then on to the convention this summer where our vision can become the rebirth and renewal of the Democratic Party. I look forward to talking with Gov. Dean about the future of our Party.

Dennis Kucinich
February 18, 2004

[ibegurpard]

1. I truly don't have too much beef with Kucinich

but this sticks in my craw:
"To his supporters, I would say this: "If you love Howard Dean, you'll love Dennis Kucinich, too." If you are in touch with Dean supporters, please share this message with them."

Once again, many of us were not supporting Dean as a "compromise" when Kucinich was our ideal candidate. To many of us, Kucinich was NOT our ideal candidate. I found his attacks on someone who was, although different on a number of policy issues, advocating for reform of the political process to be very disheartening.

[KissMyAsscroft]

2. I agree....I am a Dean supporter...

and I think Kucinich is living in a fantasy world.

[diamondsoul]

9. snarkiness.

Why are you so angry with us?

Maybe he is and maybe he isn't but nobody will ever know until he's given a chance.

What I find really sad is that with one exception, Kucinich supporters have tried to be considerate, sympathetic and just plain kind about all this. I don't understand the need you and some other have to beat us about the head and neck with just plain mean-spirited posts.:shrug:

BTW, I had come to conclude that if there was a problem with my state ballot and I couldn't vote Kucinich I was voting Dean. It's stuff like this in the face of people just trying to be thoughtful that makes me wonder what kind of candidate attracts people who enjoy saying deliberately mean and hurtful things and second-guess my own decision.

[OhioStateProgressive]

34. You don't have to justify yourself

We are Kucinich supporters, we are right, we are just, we are correct.

It is not our fault the rest of the party chooses to be wrong.

[Desertrose]

3. I don't see that inferred here....

I really don't think it was intended that way.

I think DK is simply offering another choice...an antiwar choice... to Dean supporters.

Y'all make up your own mind about who you want to support if you are ready to change from Dean.....

Its hard to see candidates you've supported for months & months drop out...it really sucks!

Peace
DR

[OhioStateProgressive]

4. Dean was pushing for reforms

Dennis is pushing for correctness.

Reforms don't mean anything if they aren't 100% correct.

[Kanary]

17. Well, Ohio, if you're open to hearing a response

I would like to mention to you that sometimes there is a lot more involved with "reform" than meets the eye.

The word "radical" is bandied about often as a perjorative, when actually the true meaning of the word "radical" is "root". To be a radical means to get to the root of the issue.

So, if a system is totally rotten, trying to softly and slowly make amendments to said system isn't going to take care of the problem. It has nothing to do with "correctness" (which has a lot of baggage from the right... I don't know if you were intending that or not.)

Dennis is one of those rare people who wants to actually have the guts to look deeply at the root of the problems, and fix them at their source. That's a far cry from some surface "correctness".

As for me, I most definitely want someone with the courage to take the bull by the horns and deal with the source of the rottenness, rather than putting on bandaids which will keep requiring more and more efforts just to keep it from disintegrating.

When surgery is required to heal, bandaids are useless, and even dangerous. NOTHING to do with "correctness".

Kanary

[OhioStateProgressive]

23. I agree with you

and I think Deans reforms are a shell

Dennis's reforms are about bringing what is correct.

[Cassandra]

20. There's no such thing as 100% correct in politics

and some reform is better than none at all. The director of the NY Dean campaign has sent out an email freeing his supporters; however, I'm not sure I want to be freed up. If Edwards is polling very close to Kerry, I will vote for Edwards. Otherwise, I will vote for Dean and if he wins delegates who wish to support Edwards, that is fine with me. I am so sad, I can hardly believe it (and I've been a registered, voting Democrat for 30 years). The notion that Dean was taking votes from ANYONE is insulting. My vote for Dean will be for Dean. Come November, I'll be ABB.

edit: I'm so upset, I made myself older.:-(

[diamondsoul]

31. I'm so sorry.

:(

I think I missed something, though- where was the suggestion that Dean was "taking votes from" anyone??

I really am sorry, and I hope however you cast your vote you get some measure of satisfaction from it. I'm going to miss him!

[ibegurpard]

33. Try post #29

Right here in this thread. The attitude that somehow Dean was "robbing" Kucinich of his rightful support is not uncommon. Again, many of us wouldn't have been supporting Kucinich anyway.

[OhioStateProgressive]

35. well

If you want America to succeed, vote Kucinich.

If you don't care about America, support someone else.

[Cassandra]

40. If you put Bush in that sentence instead of Kucinich...

You would have a remarkably Republican-sounding statement there. I don't admire the absolutism of either the far right or the far left. I would say that you are not one of Kucinich's more compelling supporters. Your need to insult everyone who doesn't agree with you leaves a sour taste.

[OhioStateProgressive]

41. One doesn't need admiration for the truth to remain true(nt)

[Cassandra]

42. Edwards also said that on CBS this evening

that Dean had taken votes from him. He may get some of Howard's votes, but they were never originally his.

[diamondsoul]

6. Hmm. I'm sorry if that was the message

conveyed to you by that statement. I honestly don't think that was the intended meaning. Instead I think he was trying to say that he and Dean both have stood for desperately needed changes on a lot of the same issues. The degree of change might have been different but they both seem to see the same problems at play, don't you think?

Elections reform is my biggie right now, and I think Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich have been the two strongest voices against what we're seeing happen now. Money interests selecting our candidates, whether it's voting machine manufacturers, the corporate media or PACs- Governor Dean came out with a strong message of opposition for it even if there might have been times I thought he should stand up that he opted not to. (Dennis has occasionally failed to speak up when I thought he should too.)

Anyway, just some thoughts from someone who wasn't very enamored of Governor Dean but has put old resentments aside to focus on the good he's done and can still do. BTW, I hope you're handling the situation ok. I think if it were me I'd be hard-pressed to keep discussing the race for at least a day or two, from sheer frustration.

8. can't really blame him for trying though

[Cocoa]

5. seems like a natural

I wonder if Dennis will get most of the Dean supporters' votes. The media would HATE that, they want Dennis gone.

[diamondsoul]

11. No, we won't.

Kucinich is unelectable no matter how many people like him best or second-best because none of them will ever vote for him.

Time for a break. I'm getting snarky again.*sigh*

[Debi]

7. As an Iowa

Precinct Captain for Dean in the Caucuses I cannot have totally good feelings towards Kucinich.

It's true that the campaigns had some of the same messages...BUT

Dean supporters didn't go to Kucinich events and pass around lit.

Dean supporters didn't go to Kucinich events and hold up signs.

Dean supporters didn't encourage each other to caucus for anybody
but Kucinich if they didn't reach their minimum for one delegate

Dean didn't broker a DEAL with John Edwards to throw support to each other if they didn't reach their minimum for one delegate.

Dean didn't attack Kucinich during the debates.

I think I'll stay right where I am - oh, I'll vote ABB in November - but I'm Dean all the way!

[Lisa0825]

13. Thank you!

I was really leaning toward Kucinich as a next choice after Clark dropped out (Clark was my second), until all the things you mentioned. I was in Iowa working for Dean the weekend of the caucus, and it really surprised me when I heard DK's supporters were sent to Edwards. Then, at my local Democrat Club meeting, prior to our endorsement vote, a Kucinich rep stood up and gave a speech for Kucinich, and after every statement he said something about "if you want a more populist candidate, you could vote for Edwards." That annoyed me.

[Debi]

21. It really made no sense

Except for DK's bitterness and not being the only anti-war candidate.

But it will come to bite him in the behind because too many Dean supporters felt betrayed by a campaign that we thought would join DFA if DK didn't do well. Edwards doesn't make alot of sense for the DK transition with IWR/Patriot Act but who knows.

Glad you made it to Iowa...no matter how it worked out, we made history.

[OhioStateProgressive]

26. the truth

is that Kucinich supporters were never going to go for Dean, because Dean lied, and said he was the only candidate against the war

The fact that Dean ws a fake leftist had a lot to do as well

[Debi]

27. So instead

You go with a pro-war/pro-partriot act candidate?

To what? Teach Dean a lesson?

That reeks of ego.

Read my post above - we were nice to the DK supporters in our town - we let them use our office (heck we let all the campaigns use our office) even after we declared our support for Dean - we had Marty Schram out for dinner and invited DK supporters to join us.

And BAMM!! smacked right in the back of the head...THANKS DENNIS!!!:mad:

[OhioStateProgressive]

29. umm

The fact is that you (generic for Dean supporters) should have been Kucinich supporters and voters, and the fact that so many weren't means that the 'ideals' Dean spoke of aren't really there, because it is Dennis who truly represents them.

[Debi]

30. Wait one second

Are you telling me that Howard Dean was an empty vessel and just used Dennis Kucinich's platform to run on?

So all the time Dean was in office he was just laying in wait for Dennis to run for President so he could co-opt his message?

Wow...now THAT's a conspiracy theory!:smoke:

[OhioStateProgressive]

32. No conspiracy

Dean just campaigned as a Populist liberal, when he was actually a Corporate Centrist.
He was also a fake, with ideas that were about 35% of what this nation needs.

I will support 100% reform, I don't support half assed anything.

[diamondsoul]

37. *sigh* If it means anything, I'm now

officially embarrassed and slightly peeved.

Attacking Governor Dean's character now is pointless and cruel.

I'd also like to say something as a semi-insider of the Kucinich campaign- I have to suspect a lot of miscommunication between Kucinich and Dean supporters. Have you looked around DU at some of the posts supposedly made by Dean supporters to Kucinich people?

That sort of thing leaves an impression, you know? I think both sides believed the other was so ticked at the candidate or supporters that no exchange of support would ever work. How very sad. Isn't it just typical of the division we're seeing now, though?

Now I remember why I hate politics.:-(

[diamondsoul]

36. I hope you wont mind

a genuine and hopefully non-offensive response to this.

Precinct Captain for Dean in the Caucuses I cannot have totally good feelings towards Kucinich.

It's true that the campaigns had some of the same messages...BUT

Dean supporters didn't go to Kucinich events and pass around lit.

Whoah! I'm sorry our supporters did that if yours weren't. I can say it has happened where I am, on both sides and that neither seemed to take offense. Some people committed to Kucinich or Dean as a second because of it and some friendships have been forged between the two groups. One of our regional coordinators was actually invited to a Dean Meetup to get signatures for Kucinich's ballot placement petitions. Also we were never rude enough to offer literature and not take the Dean lit in return and we tried very hard not to be typical "recruiters" about it.

Dean supporters didn't encourage each other to caucus for anybody
but Kucinich if they didn't reach their minimum for one delegate

:wow: Really?? Honest question here because that isn't what we've heard from all over Iowa. Not accusing you of being dishonest, just suggesting that the events in your local area might not quite be the same as in other places, you know? I honestly don't doubt it based on the local Dean supporters where I am.

Dean didn't broker a DEAL with John Edwards to throw support to each other if they didn't reach their minimum for one delegate.

Ok, I'm going to make a comparison here, and it isn't meant as a slam. Were you as offended when Governor Dean opted out of public financing? If not why not? Isn't it the same politics as usual type of choice?

Dean wasn't polling in the single digits prior to Iowa, Kucinich and Edwards, among others, were. I suspect Governor Dean might well have made a similar Deal had the situations been reversed and it would have been self-defeating to make that deal with a front-runner.

Let me just say, I did have a bad reaction to Governor Dean opting out of public funding at first. The more I thought about it, the more I knew I had to drop that as an issue. There are times when you have to play the system you want to change in order to have any chance at all of succeeding, and I think both of these situations are examples of that.

Dean didn't attack Kucinich during the debates.

Errr, no he just had a terrible habit of ignoring him completely both in and out of the debates. All Kucinich and his supporters expected was the respect he was due. Dean supporters mostly gave that, but the Governor himself didn't do very well in that area. I didn't see Kucinich "attack" Dean ever. I did see him challenge the Governor about policy positions, and that's what happens in debates. I did see him challenge Governor Dean on what appeared to be deliberately misleading statements about the IWR, and while I can understand that might not have been pleasant for you, I can honestly say I'd have expected Governor Dean to do the same had Kucinich ever behaved that way.

You and every other supporter of candidates who have chosen to drop back from the race have every right to do whatever you feel is right with your votes. I would just ask you to read some of our posts with an open mind and be willing to consider mending the breach between Kucinich and Dean supporters. Regardless of the who the Nominee winds up being, I think we'll probably need to be able to work together to make sure the next administration isn't allowed to stagnate on our issues.

[Endangered Specie]

10. Kucinich needs a reality check

That was what was great about Dean, he admitted he couldnt fix all the problems.

DK on the other hand, must think he is running in Europe or something, far beyond our times.

[Mairead]

12. DK's whole life has been a reality check. He and Sharpton are a

hell of a lot more grounded and in touch with ordinary reality than the other two, who grew up highly privileged. Please don't kid yourself, you'll be the worse for it.

[Endangered Specie]

15. Hardly, at least everyone else drops out when they realize...

they dont stand a chance in hell of winning.

[Mairead]

24. At least some people know the difference between 25% and a majority

[Slice]

22. No

Sharpton is a racist prick.

[OhioStateProgressive]

25. I agree(nt)

[Debi]

28. Kick!

:kick:

[bigwillq]

14. To me, DK's message was alot more heartfelt than

Kerry's. At least DK knows what us grassroots folks believe in.

[EXE619K]

16. I certainly have no qualms with the Kooch!

I think Kucinich is great!

After attending numberous Dean "Meet-ups" and campaign events, I have yet to find any animosity toward the Kooch from other Deaners.

But, even though Howard Dean will not get to Boston and win the nomination...it doesn't mean that WE are not going to have our voices heard in Boston.

Dean(in name only) is still on the ballot.

[revcarol]

18. I would rather bury the hatchet than us bury the hatchets in each other.

I have some hard feeling towards Dean too: his repeated "I am the only..." for example.

We are the only groups left who are truly grass roots, made up of ordinary every day supporters who contributed small amounts of money when we could. And I feel that is VERY important to change the party, to get back to dealing with ordinary people as the party's backbone, and not just special interests.

And we agreed on the NECESSITY to deal with a lot of issues: health care for all, anti-war, jobs, anti-NAFTA,...the list is so long. Mostly things the other candidates were just mouthing platitudes about...both Dean and Kucinich had REAL PLANS.But while the other candidates were just saying empty words, these two candidates were addressing the PROBLEMS of the ordinary people.

So we have much more in common than we sometimes think when we are angry.

I can understand if you are still upset. I am too.This has been a wrenching experience for everyone who isn't part of the DLC establishment same-o, same-o clique: to see fine candidates just destroyed by their own party.

So, please visit DK's site and see if your conscience will allow you to vote for him or contribute some $$.If you feel you can vote for him, that would be great.

Keep in mind that Dean's name will still be introduced in nomination for the Presidency at the convention and he will still receive all of his pledged delegates to vote for him!!

If you cannot vote for him, but would like to help out, check things out at his site.

And we Kucitizens are ALREADY APPRECIATING the work the Dean organization will do for the Democrats in the GE. But we also NEED TO CHANGE THE PARTY TO BE GRASS ROOTS. So we NEED each other to accomplish this..

[ibegurpard]

19. Agreed with you on the necessity of anyone who wants more of a voice

for grassroorts in the party to get involved in the organizations that have sprung up in the wake of both the Dean and Kucinich campaigns.

[NNadir]

38. Why would I support Kucinich? Just because he has no sense of reality?

I am disappointed we lost Dean, but not so much that I've been driven insane.

I have yet to see one sign that Kucinich has an iota of realism. If Dean is gone and he is not, well, it's either sad and pathetic or it's a matter of grandiose delusion. Neither appeal to me.

[eridani]

39. According to the Pew Foundation

51% of Republicans and 86% of Democrats support universal health care over tax cuts. What is so damned unrealistic about demanding that? Maybe you don't get it right away, but why start out with your wussiest compromise?