Was Obama naive for not showing up to vote on Kyl-Lieberman?

[Clintonista2]

Inspired by this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3646516

[MethuenProgressive]

1. The story is that he didn't know there'd be a vote.

An amazingly important vote, and all those other Senators stayed to vote on it, but Obama "didn't know"? So, where'd he go that was more important to him?

[msongs]

2. on a gospel tour? nt

[jenmito]

7. He put out a statement saying he's against it. If it was going to be a close vote he'd have

gone back...just like he did when he was supposed to be on The View.

[cobalt1999]

14. Sorry, if you don't vote, then you have no right to bitch.

[jenmito]

76. Says you. He made his position clear.

[cobalt1999]

97. Says you?

Says you? I haven't heard such a brilliant argument since elementary school!

What next? An "I'm rubber, you're glue" post? LOL

[Basileus Basileon]

8. Not the best excuse.

Obama, 2012: "There was an international trade summit? Nobody told me about that! I was campaigning for my re-election!"

[Hippo_Tron]

98. It's completely different when you're an incumbent

Read up on how efficient travel on Air Force One is.

[Tellurian]

119. Wow- The majority has spoken..

[Bitwit1234]

3. He wanted to be able to jump on which ever side got the story

[jefferson_dem]

5. He released a statement the day of the vote.

There was never any question about which side would prevail. So given that, how would he benefit from not voting?

[Basileus Basileon]

9. Because if public opinion on Iran shifts, nobody can do a hit piece saying,

"Obama voted to protect Iran's military from being called a terrorist organization."

[Clintonista2]

10. Bingo!

The poster above you forgot to mention that he released the statement AFTER the vote.

[jenmito]

12. That's more Hillary's MO. But instead of not voting, she votes both ways

on everything. One foot in the hawk camp, another in the dove camp.

[Basileus Basileon]

13. What a strange response.

"What does he have to gain?"
"Here Obama is being disingenuous by covering his ass while still attacking Hillary for voting on it."
"HILLARY DOES IT WORSE!"

If you can't defend Obama's nonvote, don't change the argument to Hillary. One candidate at a time.

[jenmito]

22. No defense of his non-vote. He put out a statement right away.

Hillary, on the other hand, did her usual triangulation.

[Basileus Basileon]

26. His non-vote was an act of political cowardice.

I agree with Hillary's vote, by the way. But it's a hell of a lot easier to put out a statement saying "I disagree" than it is to actually vote no. The latter makes an effective attack ad. The former does not.

[jenmito]

38. No it wasn't. He wasn't there and made it very clear of his position. And the fact that you agree

with her vote tells me you'd never support Obama anyway. Are you kidding that her vote for the LIEBERMAN bill won't make for an effective attack ad? It shows she has ZERO judgement.

[Basileus Basileon]

41. What makes you say that?

Policy-wise, Obama and Clinton are about as close as two candidates have ever been. They have cast identical votes on Iraq. Clinton votes party-line 97.0% of the time; Obama 96.3%. I'm confident that their closeness is a reason why this campaign has been focused on cackles and singers--there's realistically very little between them.

I highly doubt the Republicans will run an ad criticizing her for being too tough on Iran.

[jenmito]

73. She votes strategically, not morally. She voted FOR the war when it was popular

so she would look strong on foreign policy while Obama spoke out against it. She didn't even read all the intel. herself and she also voted against the Levin/Reid amendment to give added diplomacy. When it became popular to be against the war she turned against it. Yet she's still triangulating to look tough for the general yet dovish for the primary. She voted for the Kyl/Lieberman bill then voted for the Webb bill to keep the Dem. base happy. Triangulation as usual.

Do you really think it was OBAMA who was focused on cackles and singers?

Of course the Repubs. won't criticize her for being too tough on Iran. Our base will. And she has to win the nomination before running in the general. But she seems to believe she's already won the nomination.

[Basileus Basileon]

78. And yet you haven't come across a single policy difference between the two.

It's just that, despite having practically identical voting records, when Obama does it it's because he's principled, and when Clinton does it it's because she's triangulating. Rrrrright.

Of course it isn't Obama who focused on cackles and singers. It's Hillary and Obama supporters, because they're desperate to find something--anything--that actually separates the two candidates.

[jenmito]

88. He was against the IWR when it was popular to be FOR it...

No. Obama's consistent in his votes/positions on issues and Hillary isn't. The Kyl/Lieberman vote was a BIG one. Not to mention HIS consistency and her inconsistency on the subject of taking nukes off the table re: Iran. She was against using them, then FOR using them and accusing him of being naive for taking them off the table, then saying she'd take them off the table. Then she said she wouldn't campaign in MI but kept her name on the ballot. She's a flip-flop-flipper.

Did you think or say her "cackle" was sincere as many of her supporters claimed? If so, how did you feel when she suddenly stopped it? And I don't know which singers you think Obama focused on re: Hillary. :shrug:

[Basileus Basileon]

92. Pretty damn easy to be "against" it

when you don't have a single camera on you and nobody gives a damn about you. Once he actually got to the Senate, his voting record on Iraq, Iran, and terrorism has been vote-for-vote identical to Clinton's. You can't very well say "he's consistent" and "she's not" when they have the exact same record. I don't care about what they say, talk is cheap. Tell me about what they do.

Her "cackle" was a stupid-ass non-issue. Obama's support of a homophobic gospel singer is a stupid-ass non-issue. And that's all their supporters can talk about, because when the chips are down and the AYEs and NAYs are being counted, they're the same person.

[jenmito]

121. Um, he was an IL state senator at the time and DID have cameras on him

and he spoke out publicly against it and people sure DID give a damn about him. :eyes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXzmXy226po Unless you think he wasn't planning on going any farther in politics, he most certainly took a DIFFICULT position.

You say talk is cheap? No wonder you like Hillary. She's talked out of both sides of her mouth on many issues.

[BootinUp]

15. Thats silly

I am too tired to search for the examples of Obama's hawkish statements and votes. I'll leave it to someone else while I do some work.

[Mass]

18. This is silly. He has been on record again and again saying he was opposed to the amendment and

would have voted NO. I think any idiot can find the statement and doubt people on Hillary's campaign are idiots.

[BootinUp]

20. I guess we'll just have to believe him then?

pardon me while I cough.

[Basileus Basileon]

21. Perhaps he just didn't want to break his streak

of voting identically to Clinton on foreign policy.

[BootinUp]

24. You should win something

for that. ;)

[Mass]

27. Sure. Which is why he said he opposed the vote the same day Clinton voted YES.

There is something to say about Clinton's supporters. They certainly do not want to win other supporters. If I was going to quit Obama for this vote, obviously, I would not support the only candidate who voted YES on such an amendment!

[BootinUp]

29. It was after the vote. Convenient no? n/t

[jenmito]

30. At which time he did NOT copy her vote. BTW, most other votes Hillary voted AFTER Obama.

She's the follower.

[Basileus Basileon]

33. So which is it?

Is Clinton a focus-tested triangulating poll-driven political animal? Or is she simply following Obama's lead? If she's the former, and if she always votes the same as Obama...what does that say about him? If she's the latter, how do you reconcile that with the fact that she always makes it very clear what she's going to do for weeks beforehand?

And wouldn't it be easier to just admit that both are Democratic candidates for President, nothing more, and nothing less?

[Basileus Basileon]

32. I'm no Clinton supporter. nt

[Mass]

34. Does that mean that you disagree with your candidate or that you are a freeper?

Not sure as every other Democratic candidate said they opposed the amendment or voted against it?

[Basileus Basileon]

36. That means I disagree with Mr. Edwards on this particular vote, but

that I realistically don't know how he would have voted if he were still in the Senate. I accept that he's a politician; I just think that, for this race at least, he happens to be the most liberal of the Big Three.

[BootinUp]

37. I consider that out of line.

perhaps he is undecided or decided not support a candidate in the primary, doesn't make him a freeper.

[Basileus Basileon]

39. Well, I'm leaning Edwards, but not committed.

Though Richardson is the most conservative of the lot, I initially supported him, simply because I believe his diplomatic prowess would allow him to get more progressive legislation through than any other candidate. However, he's been atrocious on the campaign trail so far, and so I've decided to hop over to Edwards. While I think Clinton's got it locked up, I think an Edwards vote is the best way of saying "I wish the party would be more populist."

But I'm certainly open to change.

[BootinUp]

42. Hope you stick around. n/t

[Mass]

53. So you disagree with them on this issue. It was exactly my question.

[Basileus Basileon]

55. See post #36.

[Mass]

23. That he was in ME the day before? He was. Why do you want to reinvent history.

And he stated immediately after the vote he would have voted NO. Every idiot with a computer can find the statement. So, why I am supposed not to believe him on this one.

More plausible than Hillary voting for Kyl-Lieberman to preserve peace. This one is hard to swallow.

[rinsd]

52. Candidate events for Septemebr 25th

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/tracker/dates/2007/sep/25/

Hillary Rodham Clinton

* 10 a.m., Ceremony in Little Rock, AR.
* Time N/A, Appearance in Chicago, IL.

John Edwards

* 3 p.m., Meeting in Chicago, IL.
* Time N/A, Appearance in Chicago, IL.

Mike Huckabee

* 10 a.m., Ceremony in Little Rock, AR.
* 3:30 p.m., Speech in Arkadelphia, AR.

John McCain

* 5:30 p.m., Fundraiser in Houston, TX.
* Time N/A, Fundraiser in San Antonio, TX.

Barack Obama

* 10 a.m., Ceremony in Little Rock, AR.
* 5 p.m., Fundraiser in Portland, ME.
* Time N/A, Appearance in Chicago, IL.

Bill Richardson

* Time N/A, Fundraiser in New York, NY.

Mitt Romney

* 12:30 p.m., Fundraiser in Bakersfield, CA.
* 5:45 p.m., Fundraiser in Los Angeles, CA.

Info on that Chicago event which I think happened earlier than his flying to ME.

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., and former Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C. will participate in an "American Dream Dialogue"

[Mass]

59. What are you trying to prove with this schedule.

You are making my point. Hillary did not have any even outside of DC in the afternoon of the 25th and the morning of the 26th. Obama had already previous engagements. All I was saying. They are the two only senators present on your list. (the appareance in Chicago was by video conference).

[rinsd]

63. So you're saying that if the vote happened the evening of the 25th Obama would have been in Maine?

:shrug:

Thanks for the info about the Chicago event, I did not know it was a video conference.

[BootinUp]

4. If you included "and then attacked Hillary for her vote"

I could have gladly voted yes.

[bigwillq]

6. He should've been there

even though some are saying he didn't know there would be a vote. I am not sure if that is true or not. I don't think it's naivety but I do believe he should have been there. McCain too. I don't think he was there either.

[Mass]

17. So, was he supposed to fly from ME (or NH) to DC and back to NH?

Thanks for global warming.

[bigwillq]

19. I would like to know

if he knew about the vote or not before hand. If he did, then he should've been there. If he didn't, then I think it would be impossible to rearrange his sked.

[Mass]

25. No. This has been said again and again. Read the Senate's records.

They show Reid stating there would be no votes on Biden and Kyl-Lieberman the day he left for ME. Then the vote was rearranged the next day. It happens. The debate and the two rallyes had been planned for a very long time.

[bigwillq]

35. Thanks for bringing that to my attention (nt)

[rinsd]

46. Yes read the actual Senate records not the edited ones proffered by Obama supporters

And not some half baked conspiracy

The evening of Sept 25th

Sen. Harry Reid : Mr. Chairman, there will be no more votes tonight. We have tried to work something out on the Kyl-Lieberman amendment and the Biden amendment. We have been unable to do that.

We have been very close a few times, but we have just been informed that Senator Biden will not have a vote anytime in the near future. There will not be a vote on the other one anytime in the near future. We hope tonight will bring more clearness on the issue.

Here's where you cut it off? Why? Could it be this line gives the rest context?

But right now, I think it is fair to say there will be no votes tonight.

Does the Senator from South Dakota have any comments?


Sen. John Thune : No, I do not. I would say to the leader, that is good for our Members to know. We have Members who have been inquiring whether they will be able to vote.


Sen. Harry Reid : Let me say this: One thing I have done is, anytime I know there is going to be no votes, Senator McConnell is the first to know. If there is a Monday we are not going to have votes, I let everybody know; nighttime vote. I think that has worked pretty well. There are no surprises.

Now, sometimes things just do not work out. But anytime we decide, on this side, the majority, there are not going to be votes, Senator McConnell knows. That is an arrangement I made with him. I have stuck to that for the last 8 months.

Mr. President, I suggest the absence of a quorum.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/record.xpd?id=110-s20070925-35

The very next day in the morning....

Sen. Harry Reid : Mr. President, this morning the Senate will conduct morning business, with the time equally divided and controlled between the two sides, with the majority controlling the first half hour.

We are working hard to come up with an agreement on how we can dispose of the Biden and Kyl amendments. We were very close to being there several times yesterday, but we are still not there. Once we reach an agreement, Members will be notified of when the votes will occur.

The Senate has received, it is my understanding, the children's health legislation. We are going to begin the process of getting to a point where this matter will be considered and disposed of in the Senate and sent to the President.

Other matters which need to be considered this week are a continuing resolution and debt limit. I have been in contact with my distinguished colleague, the senior Senator from Kentucky, to see how we are going to work our way through this. Members will be apprised of schedule issues throughout the day.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/record.xpd?id=110-s20070926-4

The vote took place at 12:45, so Obama had plenty of time to return from NH.

"The debate and the two rallyes had been planned for a very long time"

And yet every other Dem Senator that is a candidate was able to make both the vote and the debate even when some had rough travel days on the 25th.

[Mass]

51. When were they notified there would be a vote that day. And did you expect Obama to flight from NH

and back the same day? See my comment in previous posts.

No other candidates who were there had a rallye that day. Is that simple enough. In fact, Obama was in DC the day the vote was supposed to happen. He was not there the next day. Facts are stubborn.

[Basileus Basileon]

79. If he believed that this vote might lead to war,

I would expect that, yes.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mass]

16. He did not even sell him out. The vote was not even close and each presidential campaign

has candidates missing votes when their vote is not critical.

In fact, Obama had a campaign meeting in ME the day before the vote. He left and did not intend to go back to DC the next day as the vote was not planned and he was to be in NH the next day. Then, it turned out that Hillary did not vote the right way and was called out. This is when the story about Obama missing the vote started, as if missing a vote was worse than voting the wrong way (which she late justified as saying that it was a vote for diplomacy).

I do not think Reid was unreasonnable, just that some Hillary's supporters are using that, hoping that we will forget how SHE voted.

[DemFemme]

28. One. More. Time. Top Hillary staffer Rory Reid's dad Harry pulled a bait-and-switch on Obama.

"The reason Obama did not vote is not because he didn't show up. He did show up for the scheduled vote. Harry Reid
canceled it below quote]. When he rescheduled it for the next morning, Reid (whose son works for Clinton campaign)
let Obama know only 1 hour in advance. Obama was in New Hampshire at the time and it was impossible to make it
back to Washington. Obama did, however issue out a statement that same day on how he would have voted if he had
the opportunity."

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/clinton/clintonorgnv.html

Coincidentally, did I mention that Harry Reid's son is a paid staff member for Hillary Clinton in Denver. He's the Clark
County Commission Chairman and his name is Rory Reid.

*********

"Mr. REID: Mr. Chairman, there will be no more votes tonight. We have tried to work something out on the Kyl-Lieberman amendment
and the Biden amendment. We have been unable to do that. We have been very close a few times, but we have just been informed
that Senator Biden will not have a vote anytime in the near future. There will not be a vote on the other one anytime in the near future.
We hope tonight will bring more clearness on the issue."

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r110:S25SE7-0035

[Mass]

31. Do not bother. They will not read. They do not need the truth.

They need to change the subject because of their candidate's vote.

[DemFemme]

40. LOL I know. I am hoping non-Hillarians are interested in the truth (plus links).

Did I tell you I love your style? :hi:

Peace.

[rinsd]

45. The truth? You do know the other poster cut the quote and left out info, right?

The evening of Sept 25th

Sen. Harry Reid : Mr. Chairman, there will be no more votes tonight. We have tried to work something out on the Kyl-Lieberman amendment and the Biden amendment. We have been unable to do that.

We have been very close a few times, but we have just been informed that Senator Biden will not have a vote anytime in the near future. There will not be a vote on the other one anytime in the near future. We hope tonight will bring more clearness on the issue.

Here's where you cut it off? Why? Could it be this line gives the rest context?

But right now, I think it is fair to say there will be no votes tonight.

Does the Senator from South Dakota have any comments?


Sen. John Thune : No, I do not. I would say to the leader, that is good for our Members to know. We have Members who have been inquiring whether they will be able to vote.


Sen. Harry Reid : Let me say this: One thing I have done is, anytime I know there is going to be no votes, Senator McConnell is the first to know. If there is a Monday we are not going to have votes, I let everybody know; nighttime vote. I think that has worked pretty well. There are no surprises.

Now, sometimes things just do not work out. But anytime we decide, on this side, the majority, there are not going to be votes, Senator McConnell knows. That is an arrangement I made with him. I have stuck to that for the last 8 months.

Mr. President, I suggest the absence of a quorum.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/record.xpd?id=110-s20070925-35

The very next day in the morning....

Sen. Harry Reid : Mr. President, this morning the Senate will conduct morning business, with the time equally divided and controlled between the two sides, with the majority controlling the first half hour.

We are working hard to come up with an agreement on how we can dispose of the Biden and Kyl amendments. We were very close to being there several times yesterday, but we are still not there. Once we reach an agreement, Members will be notified of when the votes will occur.

The Senate has received, it is my understanding, the children's health legislation. We are going to begin the process of getting to a point where this matter will be considered and disposed of in the Senate and sent to the President.

Other matters which need to be considered this week are a continuing resolution and debt limit. I have been in contact with my distinguished colleague, the senior Senator from Kentucky, to see how we are going to work our way through this. Members will be apprised of schedule issues throughout the day.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/record.xpd?id=110-s20070926-4

The vote took place at 12:45, so Obama had plenty of time to return from NH.

[DemFemme]

49. You wouldn't know the truth if I posted it. Try again, Hillarian BS artist #10. n/t

[rinsd]

54. So why did you cut off the quote?

[Mass]

64. Your quote actually makes my point. Reid decided the date and time of the vote at the last minute.

Thanks for playing.

[rinsd]

67. Last minute? It was a continuation of the previous evening.

Which brings me to another point if Obama was in ME at a previous engagement, how was he going to vote on this issue?

Or is it more likely he wasn't going to bother to vote on this issue because its outcome was not in doubt. He just didn't expect Hillary with the heat on her from anti-war Dems to vote for it giving him ammo.

[DemFemme]

93. Wrong. It was the same evening. n/t

[cuke]

117. So Obama doesn't know that votes can come up all of a sudden?

How long has he been in the Senate?

[Mass]

50. And fly back to NH immediately after. Thanks for global warming.

The vote took place at 12:45. When were they notified? Between 9:30 and 10, Reid still did not know whether there would be a vote or not and when it would take place. Listen, we know you do not care of the truth on this issue, sadly, because it would bring the light on the real issue, why did Hillary voted for this bill (that all her opponents who voted opposed).

[rinsd]

58. If it was as an important vote as he claims it was he would have been available.

All the other candidates were and all the other candidates had to go to NH too for the debate that evening.

So now your excuse is Obama would have been contributing to global warming?

:rofl:

You do know he flew down to AR, to Chi and then to ME the previous day don't you?

So is contributing to global warming excusable when done for one's campaign as opposed to doing one's duty as a Senator?

[Mass]

61. No, I am just trying to place my arguments to the level of yours.

This is a loss of time because there is no issue here except your candidate voted for Kyl-Lieberman.

[DemFemme]

60. Excellent points.

:thumbsup:

[DemFemme]

56. Speaking of truth, why did Hillary vote for another blank check for war AGAIN? n/t

[Basileus Basileon]

85. Same reason Obama did.

Nobody wants an immediate defunding, and timetables get vetoed.

[DemFemme]

94. I was speaking of the Kyl-Lieberman vote. n/t

[Basileus Basileon]

95. Ah, that's the problem then. Kyl-Lieberman does not authorize war. nt

[DemFemme]

96. Yeah, yeah, neither did IWR according to Hillary. Twice fooled....

Tell it to Senator Jim Webb, whose judgment I trust far more than Billary & Co.

[Basileus Basileon]

99. Senator Jim Webb is a politician.

He stretches the truth to increase his personal political capital and fundraising ability. So does Hillary. You can't trust any of them. That's why you would do best to actually read the wording of the amendment and come to your own decisions on what it means.

[DemFemme]

101. Sen. Jim Webb doesn't bullsh*t or triangulate about war, imo.

Hillary famously has and does, although I agree with your statement about politicians in general with notable exceptions.

Anyone who was against the war from the beginning has my undying respect.

[rinsd]

43. No matter how many times you repeat that smear does not make it true.

And yet again you purposefully cut off the quote giving it different context since Reid is obviously referring to that evening as the there would be no vote soon.

Sen. Harry Reid : Mr. Chairman, there will be no more votes tonight. We have tried to work something out on the Kyl-Lieberman amendment and the Biden amendment. We have been unable to do that.

We have been very close a few times, but we have just been informed that Senator Biden will not have a vote anytime in the near future. There will not be a vote on the other one anytime in the near future. We hope tonight will bring more clearness on the issue.

Here's where you cut it off? Why? Could it be this line gives the rest context?

But right now, I think it is fair to say there will be no votes tonight.

Does the Senator from South Dakota have any comments?


Sen. John Thune : No, I do not. I would say to the leader, that is good for our Members to know. We have Members who have been inquiring whether they will be able to vote.


Sen. Harry Reid : Let me say this: One thing I have done is, anytime I know there is going to be no votes, Senator McConnell is the first to know. If there is a Monday we are not going to have votes, I let everybody know; nighttime vote. I think that has worked pretty well. There are no surprises.

Now, sometimes things just do not work out. But anytime we decide, on this side, the majority, there are not going to be votes, Senator McConnell knows. That is an arrangement I made with him. I have stuck to that for the last 8 months.

Mr. President, I suggest the absence of a quorum.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/record.xpd?id=110-s20070925-35

The very next day in the morning....

Sen. Harry Reid : Mr. President, this morning the Senate will conduct morning business, with the time equally divided and controlled between the two sides, with the majority controlling the first half hour.

We are working hard to come up with an agreement on how we can dispose of the Biden and Kyl amendments. We were very close to being there several times yesterday, but we are still not there. Once we reach an agreement, Members will be notified of when the votes will occur.

The Senate has received, it is my understanding, the children's health legislation. We are going to begin the process of getting to a point where this matter will be considered and disposed of in the Senate and sent to the President.

Other matters which need to be considered this week are a continuing resolution and debt limit. I have been in contact with my distinguished colleague, the senior Senator from Kentucky, to see how we are going to work our way through this. Members will be apprised of schedule issues throughout the day.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/record.xpd?id=110-s20070926-4

The vote took place at 12:45, so Obama had plenty of time to return from NH.

[Basileus Basileon]

44. I have no issues with Obama not voting on this bill.

I do have an issue with him not voting on it and then attacking Clinton for her vote. If he believed it important enough that Clinton's vote was deserving of criticism, he ought have voted on it himself. If he believed it to be so inconsequential that a campaign event was more important, then why bash Clinton's vote?

[rinsd]

47. Actually I don't have aproblem with his attacking CLinton on the vote.

Just don't call it a free pass for the Bush admin to wage war when he couldn't be bothered to vote on it.

[BootinUp]

57. Its both together

that expose it as Presidential campaign politics though.

[Cameron27]

48. That's exactly what I've been saying.

[DemFemme]

62. Hearing the word "smear" from you is truly amusing. Repeat: Obama had no time to get back.

See Mass above:

"The vote took place at 12:45. When were they notified? Between 9:30 and 10, Reid still did not know whether there would be a vote or
not and when it would take place. Listen, we know you do not care of the truth on this issue, sadly, because it would bring the light on
the real issue, why did Hillary voted for this bill (that all her opponents who voted opposed)."

[rinsd]

65. He had no intention of bothering to vote on this.

That he had an event scheduled in Maine that evening when the vote was supposed to take place shows as much.

The only reason he brings it up is because Hillary served up a fat pitch with her vote and he jumped on it.

[DemFemme]

69. So now you're Obama's Brain?

Obama sided with Senators Jim Webb, Tester, and a whole bunch of other Democrats who have a conscience.

[rinsd]

72. Obama sat on the sidelines.

[DemFemme]

74. Obama got sidelined by top Hillary staffer Rory Reid's daddy Harry.

Billary politics as usual. Same here on DU. :eyes:

[rinsd]

86. LOL now you're reduced to tinfoil!!!!!!

Yeah Harry Reid engineered a vote so Hillary could anger the Democratic base by voting yes.

:rofl:

[DemFemme]

91. Not at all. Reid removed an advantage from Obama with which to question Hillary's vote

Just another father looking out for his son's future. Rory Reid must be happy.

Politics as usual for the Billary Dynasty. :puke:

[rinsd]

100. Ohhh how far down does the rabbit hole go.....

So if Reid was doing this for Hillary's political, why schedule the vote the afternoon before a key debate in New Hampshire where Hillary would get hit by her opponents for her vote?

Does that make sense?

Well I am sure you will come up with something to rationalize that away.

[DemFemme]

103. The rabbit hole Hillary is taking us down is paved with dead bodies.

Is "rationalize" the new word you learned on Sesame Street today? My answer to to all your repetitive questions
regarding Reid's motives are the same (see above).

Lather, rinsd, repeat.

[rinsd]

104. So Reid gives her political cover by having her thrown to the wolves that evening at the debate?

Yeah that makes total sense....:eyes:

[DemFemme]

105. Reread my above answer. Lather, rinsd, repeat. n/t

[rinsd]

106. Here's your above point

"Reid removed an advantage from Obama with which to question Hillary's vote"

OK but he does so while exposing her to sharp criticism by the rest of the Dem field (including Obama himself) that night at the debate? You do realize how little sense that makes don't you.

[DemFemme]

107. Reid and Hillary obviously didn't anticipate the firestorm her vote would cause.

That's the only logical conclusion.

There is no such thing as a flawless campaign.

[rinsd]

108. "Reid and Hillary obviously didn't anticipate the firestorm her vote would cause."

But they go to the trouble of making sure Obama doesn't vote on it?

I think you just proved your point is wrong.

[DemFemme]

109. You didn't get high marks in Logic 101, did you? Again: Lather, rinsd, repeat. n/t

[rinsd]

110. Logic?

You mean like Reid and Clinton didn't anticipate that her vote would be controversial yet they went to the trouble to make sure Obama missed the vote which was rescheduled for the day of the big NH debate when all those who voted against it would get a chance to pummel her?

That logic?

:rofl:

[DemFemme]

112. Logical deduction from K-L bill: Hillary voted for another black check for war AGAIN

That is okay by you, of course.

One. More. Time.

1) Top Hillary staffer Rory Reid's daddy and Hillary knew Obama would vote no and cement his anti-war creds so they
prevented him from doing that by pulling a bait-and-switch in order to prevent him from attacking Hillary's
vote from a position of total strength. Billary & Co. arranged for media via friends like Drudge and Rupert Murdoch
to play up the "but, but, but Obama missed his vote" angle to distract from her bloody vote.

and

2) Hillary's general election strategy vote backfired bigtime. It's a big miscalculation that will haunt her into Iowa.

These two conclusions are exclusive of each other because one was intended and the other was unintended. Your
illogic seeks to combine them which is the source of your confusion.

Peace (or should I say War -- Hillarians don't seem to care what happens as a result of her triangulated general
election strategery votes, I've noticed).

[Basileus Basileon]

113. That is simply incorrect.

1) There is nothing--nothing--in that bill that grants any form of war powers to anyone, nor does it when combined with IWR, and Bush's post-9/11 powers don't require Congress to declare anything to be anything.

2) I'll wait before I see a poll that shows her losing support before I'll say "backfired bigtime." Just like the Obama/McClurkin "controversy," the only people who think this means anything at all are on the Internets.

[DemFemme]

114. Jimmy Carter, Mario Cuomo, Sens. Webb, Tester, Cantwell et al, John Dean, etc. disagree with you

I trust them.

"The Kyl-Lieberman amendment contains language that sets forth an entirely new rationale for keeping US troops in Iraq and, if need
be, for attacking Iranian forces. The problematic language in the resolution says that it is a "critical national interest of the United
States" to counter Iran's influence among the Shia population of Iraq. Without a doubt, President Bush can cite that language as
authorizing him to maintain and use US troops in Iraq for the purpose of containing Iran, curtailing Iran's influence in Iraq, and, if
need be, to expand our troops' activities beyond Iraq's borders to pursue and attack Iranian forces."

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/10/25/431792.aspx

[Basileus Basileon]

115. K-L may be a moral justification for war, of sorts,

but it is far from a legal one, and it is certainly not a "blank check" as you put it. The bill finds it to be in the interest of the US to counter Iranian influence. That does not grant any war powers to anyone; it's simply a declaration of symbolic intent. Worrisome, but not the "blank check" you're shitting your pants over.

The problem with not reading the legislation you comment on is that you can easily misinterpret what people you trust are saying.

[DemFemme]

118. More than that or else Carter, Cuomo, Webb et al wouldn't have bothered speaking out against it

The shit is out of Hillary's camp. I'll bet you didn't think IWR was a blank check, either. :eyes:

[illinoisprogressive]

66. if Hillary was so certain it was for diplomacy why did she run for cover with Webb;'s bill.

That is another piece of the Why did Hillary vote for this bill? she knew what she was voting for just like with her Iraq vote.

[rinsd]

70. Speaking of which, why hasn't he signed on to Webb's bill?

Ya know use all his powers at bipartisanship and his self professed ability to bring people together to get some juice behind the Webb bill?

[DemFemme]

80. Because there's no way in hell Webb's bill will pass. He's not into window dressing like Hillary.

Obama's tired of triangulation and so are the grassroots donors (not "lobbyists are people") who support him.

BTW, Webb likes Obama and thinks his foreign policy ideas are "refreshing" as per his last interview on Meet The Press.
As for Hillary, in response to a question whether he thought Hillary would be better than Bush, Webb said, "I hope so."

Note the contrast. ;-)

[rinsd]

82. So instead of triangulation he is going for no stand at all...interesting.

Yes those grassroots donors.

Goldman Sachs  	$360,328
Lehman Brothers 	$237,900
JP Morgan Chase & Co 	$218,377
National Amusements Inc 	$211,710
Sidley Austin LLP 	$196,137
Exelon Corp 	$194,150
Citigroup Inc 	$179,421
Citadel Investment Group 	$173,700
Jones Day 	$156,780
Skadden, Arps Et Al 	$151,290
UBS AG 	$146,475
Harvard University 	$144,915
Time Warner 	$124,846
Jenner & Block 	$122,569
University of California 	$117,477
Kirkland & Ellis 	$111,201
Morgan Stanley 	$104,935
UBS Americas 	$104,640
WilmerHale 	$102,687
Mayer, Brown et al 	$94,638

[DemFemme]

87. Has Hillary returned the Chinese sweatshop money yet? n/t

[BootinUp]

71. Apparently

Wes Clark called her after the vote. Some theorize that he counseled her to support the Web Amendment. Besides that since she is under attack from the left its not bad politically either, just as it makes sense for Biden Dodd and Edwards to attack her.

Consider this, there is no republican using this resolution to call for attacks, and I predict there never will be.

[SaveElmer]

75. So explain then...

Why Obama made no speeches on the floor regarding the resolution. Made no attempt to amend or kill it either in committee or on the floor, and didn't even bother to comment on it until 9 hours after it had passed...

Not only did he not vote, he took no role at all on the issue...until he decided he could use it as a campaign issue against Hillary...

[rinsd]

83. Bingo. He thought it would pass, he did not know Hillary would vote for it.

When she did, his campaign was caught flatfooted.

That is why it took him so long to put out a statement.

[Cameron27]

125. That's one of the problems.

There are no speeches and no attempts to kill the bill prior to the vote that he can point to. The other is that Reid tabled the bill for the night, so if he felt it was a crucial vote, why leave without questioning when the bill would be brought to the floor.

[AtomicKitten]

68. Doesn't matter either way cuz HE DIDN'T VOTE YES ON IT.

woo-hoo

[Capn Sunshine]

77. speaking of Naive

Hillary's people hoping they can deflect her "YES" vote with a big kerfluffle trumped up over Obama's lack of.....what?

Hillary voted yes. So all you pro raptor Dems get your wish for war with Iran. Isn't that good enough? I guess not; you want to take all of us down with you.

You are despicable.

[BootinUp]

81. I guess they'll wait to attack

until these sanctions have played out then. :think:

[Capn Sunshine]

84. War without end, Amen

:nuke:
Im convinced. You believe what you want.
Me, I've seen enough.

[martymar64]

89. Another bullshit push poll?

:argh:

[Tellurian]

90. Ewwh... Just saw Obama's new campaign ad on tv.

It sucked bIG Time! He covered 5 topics in 10 seconds. Sorta like his drive-by Senate appearances

[Clintonista2]

102. LOL!

[FlaxieB]

120. Bullshit. Hillary Supporter smear as always

Several people has already commented about the Ad. It is being well received.

[Lucinda]

111. I wish it were naivety

I don't think it was.
He has a history of not going on the record with his vote. I don't consider it naive, but I am not sure exactly how to classify it.

I still don't know why he, or someone who advised him, decided to jump on this. It was very ill advised.

[fujiyama]

116. I like Obama

but he's missed a few important votes.

It's kinda frustrating and makes it tough to attack Hillary on this issue.

[phen43]

122. HEY it wasn't his fault!!!

:patriot: http://www.barackobama.com/index.php

[Think82]

123. at least he didn't vote "yes" like Hillary

[Clintonista2]

126. At least he didn't care enough to vote

[Catchawave]

124. Unfortunately, Yes.

He has no right to criticize any OTHER candidate's vote, if he didn't bother to show up.