Interesting data regarding the black church and gays (BET)

[sampsonblk]

From July 27, 2007

(BET's) Meet the Faith ran a poll to ask viewers to express their personal opinions on the subject. The results are as follow:

The Poll

We asked you, "Should the Black church stop condemning and start accepting Black gays and lesbians?" And here's how you voted:

About 64 percent of you said, "No. Most Christians believe it's wrong, and if you see people going down the wrong path, you should try to save them."

About 29 percent of you said, "Yes. Religion should be about love and tolerance."

About 7 percent of you said, "I don't know."

We also asked you, "Is homosexuality a choice or natural preference?"

About 61 percent of you said, "It's a choice."

About 24 percent of you said, "It's a natural preference. You're born that way."

(Writer's analysis is also at the link below.)

http://thejusticeofmh.blogspot.com/2007/07/bet-poll-black-church-and-homosexuality.html
---/-/---

I am assuming this is a religious broadcast with a black religious viewership. The poll is obviously not scientific. But its all I could find. Hard numbers are better than our opinions (including my own) about the views of church-going blacks.

Another interesting response to this program and poll:

The Mad Professah Lectures
http://buckmire.blogspot.com/2007/06/washington-post-pits-black-voters-vs.html

Which includes a bombshell:

In 2004, aides to Sen. John F. Kerry (Mass.), the Democratic presidential nominee, were so worried about black voters' feelings about same-sex marriage that they put Bill Clinton on a conference call with 3,000 black pastors so the former president could reassure the pastors that Kerry truly did oppose same-sex marriage.

He got that from the Washington Post, here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/23/AR2007062301348_2.html

[IndianaJones]

1. troubling. nt.

[Solon]

2. That's just disturbing. n/t

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

3. unsettling nt

[JI7]

4. i think it was when Kerry made the comparison to civil rights

when he compared gay rights to civil rights.

but is this much different from the white churches who thought Kerry wanted to ban the bible and other non sense ?

[PurityOfEssence]

5. News Flash: religion is about certainty; certainty is conservatism

Why is this surprising?

There's a reason why the religious tend to be conservative and the conservative tend to be religious.

[shenmue]

8. Wrong

The religious do not inherently tend to be conservative. Conservatives tend to be religious because they love themselves so much, they think they are the favorites of God as well.

Millions upon millions of religious people are socially progressive, however. This includes not only gay people, but many who fully accept gays. I'm tired of this notion that only right-wing people are authentically religious and they get to define who is allowed in. It's not theirs to say.

[DURHAM D]

6. I am surprised than only 61% think it is not a choice.

I think the number is actually higher than that.

I have had many friends die from AIDS. On two occasions I (along with many others) helped provide long term care for two friends, two black men who died from complications related to AIDS. Both of these men spent their final few days surrounded by biological family members as us gays (and in one case a life partner) were sent away as family members arrived. In both cases the men told their families that they had cancer.

At the funerals I sat in the back of the church with the unacknowledged "real" family members. We didn't go to the grave site and we didn't go to the wake - we knew we were not welcome as we would put a face on the lie they were all living. We were protecting our friends, as was their wish, from the hatred of their families even past death.

Just writing about it fills me with rage.

[Solon]

10. Oh Gods, that must have been terrible...

I cannot imagine the pain those men went through, the palpable hatred that family members can inflict on each other are the types of wounds that cut deepest. I don't have anymore words, its horrifying.

[DURHAM D]

28. Yes. n/t

[shenmue]

7. The underside of the 'church' that no one wants to talk about

I love how evangelical are always going on about the love of god, the power of god, etc., but secretly, they are really creeped out by gay people!

Which implies a lot of skeletons in the closet...

Donnie McClurkin is an "ex-gay," which means he took shelter in the movement after they got to him about being gay, and he can't be the only one.

It's such b.s. All that love talk, and then there's one group they really want to turn away. Hypocrites.

[sandnsea]

9. Bill Clinton wanted Kerry to support the gay marriage amendments

and yet everybody around here is supporting Hillary, when they've proven to be willing to throw gays way under the bus.

But the guy confronting all this religious idiocy, nah, we don't want him.

Stupid stupid stupid.

[Solon]

12. Your first sentence is false, stop lying. n/t

[sandnsea]

23. Bill Clinton didn't advise Kerry to support the amendments?

Is that what you're saying?

[Solon]

41. Sorry, the END of your first sentence, should have clarified...

I don't support Hillary Clinton, and have eviscerated Bill Clinton over the DOMA issue before.

[sampsonblk]

42. Looks to me like Clinton and Kerry both agreed on it

Political expediency. The report does not shed a positive light on John Kerry.

[sandnsea]

74. Kerry opposed the gay marriage amendments n/t

[sampsonblk]

79. ...publicly.

But apparently in private, he was seeking to assure the preachers that he really didn't mean it.

[sandnsea]

81. No. That was Bill Clinton

He is the one that was unhappy with Kerry's refusal to bash gays. This all came from him because that's what they do to all minorities, the poor, the gays, everybody. They only care about themselves and their power. Bill through gays under the bus and Hillary will do the same when she needs to.

[JackBeck]

13. Start a Hillary thread. Most of us can multi-task.

I'm happy to see that you support Kucinich, though.

[Bluebear]

14. Who am I ignoring now?

[IndianaJones]

17. me. nt.

[JackBeck]

21. Geez, your, umm, "list" must be huge!

[DURHAM D]

25. The usual -

sandnsea again.

[Bluebear]

27. Somebody's a busy bee lol!

[sandnsea]

24. Kucinich is fine by me n/t

[Bluebear]

11. More disgusting than interesting.

[incapsulated]

15. I would like to see a similar study of *white churches*

I hope people realize the only reason the focus is on black churches is because they will still vote for democrats?

[IndianaJones]

16. it will be a high percentage. not as shocking as african american attitudes....

considering the civil rights implications.

[incapsulated]

19. Well, I guess I was well aware of this

It may be more shocking to white folks, I dunno. I just see this turning into a meme.

But. They will still vote for democrats and those democrats will still be a million times better, overall, for gay rights than any republican.

Just to be fair about this.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

18. Absolutely.

[Solon]

20. I would imagine, among the regular church goers, regardless of race...

the numbers would be similar. Of course, it will vary widely when broken down by denomination. The fact is that working towards acceptance for GBLT people is still an uphill battle.

[incapsulated]

22. What saddens me about all this, honestly

Is Obama is right in this much. The black churches really need to come up to speed with the rest of the party on this and get their general consciousness raised.

But instead, he is pandering to them, now and alienating another group. Part of it is probably because he is fighting for their votes with Hillary.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

29. There have to be ways to reach out other than slyly endorsing bigotry

That's what keeps confusing me about this "out reach" meme... are they saying it is impossible to reach out to a black religious community within embracing republican psychos? I don't believe that. Am I naive?

[incapsulated]

36. I think when you reach out to a general "group"

And that group has an "issue", the likelihood of finding yourself aligned with people who's ideas about that issue would be offensive to a lot of dems rises considerably.

You kind of need to proceed with caution if you are going to be "out" about that kind of outreach.

As was pointed out, Kerry and other politicians do it behind the scenes and out of the public eye so they aren't held accountable to that sort of pandering.

Mainly, politicians just want VOTES. They will go anywhere people will vote for them and make statements like "I don't share their beliefs on this but I support the community", yadda, yadda. So nothing changes.

[sandnsea]

31. He is not pandering to them

He has confronted this issue repeatedly. But you have to go talk to them, with respect, to confront these issues.

[incapsulated]

38. He is defacto pandering, though

He may not have *intentionally* chosen singers who would be offensive to the gay community but he isn't getting rid of them either, because that would piss off the Christians.

[sandnsea]

48. Mary Mary has a gay fan base

Maybe he's pandering to them.

[incapsulated]

Well that is interesting but they aren't really the source of the controversy

When you sing at the republican convention and declare a war on homosexuality at exactly the time that gay marriage is an issue, you kinda become more than just another gospel singer uncomfortable with gays.

[Solon]

61. That's a weak argument...

and you know it, as far as I can tell, Mary Mary didn't reveal their views on Homosexuality or Homosexuals until just recently, after they already built up a GBLT fan base. I wonder how big that base is now? I would imagine it shrank, drastically.

[sandnsea]

63. It was a flippant dismissive

not an argument. The idea that Obama is seeking homophobic voters is one of the most hateful things I've ever seen posted at DU. Not deserving of a response, really.

[incapsulated]

65. I think he is seeking voters...

Among a community that has issues with gay rights. And he should have been far more careful about how he went about it.

A lot of these people will vote for the democratic nominee, period. Many are democrats. However, so are gays and lesbians. So, you tell me, do you offend one group to appeal to another or try to walk a careful line?

[sandnsea]

66. I don't think gays are surprised by this

I think they know black homophobes have appeared at Democratic events. I don't think black and gay votes were ever up for grabs before, and it was never politically beneficial for somebody to pit them against each other before. That's the kind of person Hillary Clinton is.

[incapsulated]

69. Are you saying Hillary Clinton is behind this?

Because you have reached a new low in desperation if you have.

Bleh, it's late and I'm done with this now.

[sandnsea]

72. Oh puhleeze, it's obvious

Nobody cared about her and her homophobic senators. Nobody has ever made an issue over the homosexual views of black religious leaders. None of this would be an issue if this guy had sang for any other candidate. This stuff just does not bubble up by itself. It has to be force fed. How can people watch the media for all these years and not know that by now.

[incapsulated]

75. They didn't?

No one every made an issue over homophobic black religious leaders?

Actually, they did. There was this controversy over this pastor who was also a singer, and he sang at the last republican convention and had declared a "war on homosexuality". And LGBT groups demanded he be removed from the convention line-up.

Donnie.... something.

[sandnsea]

83. Who supported Democrats

But you knew that.

[incapsulated]

84. The fact that he was supporting republicans

Makes it even worse.

But you knew that.

[sandnsea]

86. Not worse than concocting a controversy

while ignoring other Democrats who have likely done the exact same thing.

[Solon]

40. Its something that I think, similar to racism, is going to be handed off to future generations...

to solve. I think the argument could be made that this is comparable to how interracial marriages have been perceived since legalized in the late 1960s, oddly enough in the courtroom. It wasn't until the 1990s that a majority of this country actually thought interracial marriages were OK, that's a 30 year gap, and who lead the charge for this change in attitude? GenXers and their kids. If interracial marriage was put up to a vote, it wouldn't have been legalized until after 1990, that's something to think about.

However, there seems to be a key difference that is occurring now in relation to, for example, Gay Marriage. The attitudes seem to be changing much faster than when the issue was interracial marriages.

It seems to me that the attitudes towards GBLT people seem to be changing within generations, rather than just passed off onto future ones. I think, part of it, is that, as our culture slowly becomes more accepting, people who may not have supported gay rights find out that a brother, sister, best friend, parent, son or daughter, cousin, etc. are gay, and some are mature enough to actually learn to accept their own family for who they are.

Too many GBLT people aren't nearly as fortunate, but things ARE better today than in the past. We have had Gay Marriage legalized only a few short years ago, even if in only one state, and while other states haven't ratified it yet, and in fact, due to reactionary elements, outright outlawed it, the fact is that since then, the anti-gay marriage elements of society is weakening. Its going to slow for me, but its happening.

[IndianaJones]

43. it will take generations, sadly. nt.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

55. Maybe one generation. The average under-30 today is about with Kucinich on these issues

(If polling is to be believed)

I guess the question is whether that generation will get all conservative later on...

[IndianaJones]

60. I hope you are right my friend. nt.

[incapsulated]

44. It is getting better on some fronts

On others, it's probably going to get worse before it gets better. Because there will be backlash. Women went through a similar backlash against feminism exactly at the time when it became the most "threatening" because it was no longer academic, women were now in the workplace and making all sorts of demands for equality. Same thing with the gay marriage issue, it became the issue that was the focus of the backlash among more conservative religious people even within the party. Forget the fundies, they want to drag everyone back into the previous century.

[sandnsea]

49. Some black people oppose(d) interracial marriage

Did we throw every one of them off a Democratic candidate's campaign? Did we even know what every individual thought about interracial marriage for the last 100 years?

[incapsulated]

51. You are desperately trying to equivocate everything

Under the sun to justify this. It won't work.

It's a good thing the opposition to interracial couples from both sides didn't stop my parents or I wouldn't be here, lol.

[sandnsea]

54. It's a phony concocted "controversy"

to destroy Obama. Just one more in a long line of manufactured controversies, they're pretty easy to recognize.

[incapsulated]

58. K.

Have it your way.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

50. The generational division is so sharp today that the whole

situation will fix itself over 20-30 years just through birth and mortality.

Things have gotten much better, which makes certain other things appear more and more unjust. The last few vestiges of any discriminatory system are probably always the most galling... that period when the logic of segregation has collapsed, but arbitrary vestiges remain.

[incapsulated]

56. Honestly...

I've been surprised at how rapid it has been for the LGBT movement generally, I would have thought the resistance to be much greater. In the sickest way, had it not been for the AIDS crisis, it wouldn't have happened. For all the initial hysteria over AIDS it both emboldened gays to become political and demand their rights and oddly enough, perhaps because they were finally seen as human and victims, people started to question their own attitudes.

[sandnsea]

26. What about Catholic churches?

How come we haven't vetted every Catholic that associated themself with a candidate?

[IndianaJones]

30. rampant homophobia exists there as well. nt.

[sandnsea]

33. So name names

Which candidates have appeared with the Catholic homophobes?

[IndianaJones]

34. I could take a guess and say all of them. nt.

[sandnsea]

35. Why don't we have names?

I would make the same guess. I want to know why only Obama has to confront the homophobes in black churches, while all the primarily white religions (in the US) get a pass.

[IndianaJones]

37. white people in the U.S. always get a pass. its natures way. nt.

[JackBeck]

39. If Falwell were still alive

and any of the Dems sponsored a concert featuring Pat Robertson, this place would explode.

As far as Catholicism, most Catholics are a lot more progressive than THEY even realize.

[sandnsea]

46. Nobody ever asks about the Catholics

To even know whether a candidate has a homophobe singing in a choir or not. And this guy is not Falwell or Robertson, most people will forget his name within two weeks.

[cboy4]

45. I don't frankly expect/demand/require Obama to

"confront the homophobes" in black churches any more than I require John Edwards to "confront" the homophobes in his North Carolina church.

But what I to expect/demand/require of Obama, when it comes to homophobia, is to not welcome a homophobe to perform for his campaign.

[sandnsea]

47. Who has performed for Catholic events?

Do you know? Why not?

[cboy4]

52. I'm not aware of any other homophobes raising money

for the other candidates.

Are you?

[IndianaJones]

53. you are supposed to be....what the heck are you doing? get on it. nt.

[sandnsea]

57. Why not? This is earth shattering stuff n/t

[cboy4]

59. Well wait a minute sandnsea. Are you familiar with this

basic rule of logic: It's impossible to prove a negative.

Therefore, if you're implying that other homophobes are performing for other candidates, you need to tell me.

Then I will respond.

See how it works?

[sandnsea]

62. Why hasn't anyone investigated?

If this is such a serious ordeal with gays, why aren't you investigating every religious person any candidate meets with?

Why should I do the investigating? I think it's a given that a majority of religious people think homosexuality is a sin, so I'm not surprised when they say so. I think that's why we need to get engaged in the religious communities and stop alienating them, to change minds.

If you think the solution is to cleanse the religious supporters of Democrats from any who have ever said anything stupid about gays, well then you need to provide the names so we can get to it.

[IndianaJones]

64. from the looks of things, lots of GLBT'ers are too busy getting grilled by their "friends". nt.

[sandnsea]

67. What about 2000, 2004???

Didn't homophobe Democrats matter to gay activists then? Why weren't they vetting every religious attendee at every event then?

[cboy4]

68. Well sandnsea, how do you know that the major

gay organizations like Human Rights Campaign, the Nat'l Gay & Lesbian Task Force and others aren't investigating????

You're throwing around accusations and inferences left and right, without knowing any of the facts of which you're talking about.

The bottom line is Obama is allowing a homophobe to perform for his presidential campaign, and there is no evidence, allegations or suspicions that any of the other candidates are.

Period. Right?

[sandnsea]

73. Because it's not statistically possible

For there to have not been a homophobic Catholic at one candidate's event, that's why.

[cboy4]

77. Sandnsea, I don't disagree with you that there is plenty

of homophobia within the Catholic Church.

But there's a difference between being a passive homophobe and a vocal homophobe.

I don't excuse either.

But the difference between some ordinary Catholic who believes homosexuality is wrong because of religious reasons, and the person Obama is allowing to perform is this:

He stressed that homosexuality can be cured. Do you know how damaging that is? It sends a message to all of the people who oppose gay rights that homosexuality is a choice and it can be cured -- therefore, there is no need to protect gays people from discrimination in the work place, in housing, in allowing equal marriage and the list goes on.

This person performing for Obama is far more dangerous than the passive homophobic Catholic diocese member who may donate money or speak for one of the other candidates.

You need to understand the difference.

[sandnsea]

80. "intrinsically disordered"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=catholic+homosexual+retreat

Nobody is going to go after Catholics because we can't afford to alienate this constituency any further.

This "controversy" isn't about homophobia.

It's about junkyard dog campaign politics.

You need to understand the difference.

[cboy4]

82. Okay Sandnsea. You think the way you want, even

though you couldn't be more incorrect.

Stomping your feet and throwing dishes all over your house because you're furious you aren't getting your way doesn't change the facts.

A dangerous homophobe is helping to raise money for the senator from Illinois' campaign.

This will hurt him more than it helps him. You watch what follows.

[sandnsea]

85. I'm not furious

I'm just disgusted with Clintonian politics and how easily so many people are duped by them. People who said they were against the war and cared about the poor and global economic justice, follow the people who helped bring all this grief down on us. Makes no sense. So we're either going to get Giuliani or Clinton mudslinging for 8 years. That's all I care about and it's disgusting.

[JackBeck]

32. Because Kennedy was assassinated. n/t

[sampsonblk]

70. Answer: 85% of evangelicals say its a choice

This data is from Barna Research, and is from Fall 2007, I believe.

"Barna Research also determined that 85% of Evangelicals, 61% of born-again adults, and 65% of those who attend conservative Protestant churches believe that a person chooses to be a homosexual."
Link: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_poll2.htm

I would assume from that: the percentage among white evangelicals is close to 85%. Maybe even higher.

Index of related polling: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_poll.htm

[incapsulated]

71. Doesn't surprise me

Given so many fundamentalists are evangelicals, even though not all evangelicals are fundies.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

78. Funny to note that the whole "it's a choice" issue would mean nothing if

people were not persecuted for making that "choice."

If some group of people thought I chose to be left-handed I wouldn't be upset, as long as their theory had no real-world implications, like training and aversion therapy to force right-handedness

They would just be some people who don't know much about neurology.

In the abstract, the choice belief is a probability marker for other attitudes, not in and of itself wicked... just ignorant.

I certainly wouldn't pitch a fit if Obama had Bill Richardson at a fundraiser, for instance. And if a politician said, "people should be free to chose to be gay and get married if they want to" I might well vote for him, despite his confusion.

That's why I was disturbed to see the AP story (an many DUers) try to boil the McClurkin problem down to him *thinking* gay is a choice, rather than that he *states* that gays are trying to kill our children.

Actions matter.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

76. Little do they know of their own.....

Their own great Congresswoman Barbara Jordan, was in the closet.

Good Hope Baptist Church of Houston, Texas, and the Reverend Derrick Z. Cofield would never in a million years admit it.