I think I figured out why there is so much anger in this forum

[WilliamPitt]

A lot of us have been here for a long time, and have watched the Bush administration unspool all of the nonsense and bloodshed we've seen. We've gotten the details in specific in a way that few have been able to do in history without being in the White House communications office, or without an AP wire machine on their desk. Thank you, Al Gore.

I think the reason there is so much anger here is that a lot of people here now just hate politics.

Maybe some always did, but now almost everyone does. Why shouldn't we? Politics in the last three years has been Hobbsian: Nasty, brutal, and let's not forget cowardly. There hasn't been a lot of conviction and honor in politics for the last 30 years, but these guys are setting a new standard.

Me, I'm a cynical bastard, and so I still love politics. I even love the Bush administration for their ability to convey pure son-of-a-bitchery in the raw. For a long time, the enemies of progressivism got subtle. They're right there in the open now, and I can see them to tag them.

I'm not exactly sure what I'm driving at. It's just a sense that a lot of the reason we claw at each other here so much is that we have come to hate politics in general. I'm looking forward to November so we can begin the process of changing that.

[liberalnurse]

1. I know exactly why I am angry.

You didn't even come close.

[bearfartinthewoods]

17. same here...

[Snivi Yllom]

31. exactly

but in a way WP's post is an example of the source of anger.

You know what I mean.

[ibegurpard]

34. Betrayal for political expediency tends to make me angry

Righteous indignation at my expressions of anger tends to make me even angrier.

[homelandpunk]

130. Agreed. Will, you didn't even come close.

Try again.

[NoPasaran]

2. But I Loooooove Politics

It's people I can't stand

[liberalnurse]

4. The behavior of the DLC/DNC is shameful.

They all should be replaced for neglect of duty to the party. The freely chose to abandon Dean in lieu of self preservation of position and power. They are miserable failures. Look at how they barely attacked *bush over the past 3 years. The language of spineless dem's ran rampant here......If not for Dean, the party would remain complacent.

[King Coal]

89. What would you expect of the Kerry supporters had Dean won?

This is what unity is about. This is a big tent. But it is one tent.

[LuminousX]

97. I would have expected them to be bitter and undermine Dean

every step of the way to November. I'm not advocating that behavior, I'm just saying that is what I would have expected.

[SaddenedDem]

3. Wrong - some of us hate what the Democratic party has become

It's just that simple.

[littlejoe]

5. Although we continue to do so, we get tired of yelling at the t.v.

This forum is one of the few outlets that people with little or no individual clout have to go and scream our indignations. We tend to step on each other's toes. but most of us are of like mind when it comes to wanting our country back.

[MuseRider]

22. Boy that is the

absolute truth. My family has begun to cringe if I even look like I am getting ready to talk and the damed TV will NOT change it's opinion. Gotta blow somewhere.

[moosedog]

36. Do they let the people vent now?

I thought it was a rule that you have to play nice and be careful what you say about our annointed polititians. They insult us by manipulating us constantly as if we are dumb. I decided not to post here anymore because I need to be able to vent and at one time we could do just that on here. Things are different now and I regret it. What a loss. I hope they will ease up on people and unless it gets too ugly and childish, we should be allowed to vent our frustrations with the polititians. Mrs. Moose ( who is very sad & dissappointed)

[MuseRider]

50. Of course

you can vent but it has to be civil. Occasionally I think I might have gone too far and wait for my message to be deleted but so far it has not happened, well once but that was before things really got out of hand. I feel pretty free here I just have to remind myself that nobody likes to be insulted and a difference of opinion is really no reason to insult someone although it is tempting sometimes. Come on back just remember civilty, I hate to confess how many times I have written and deleted my response before posting it.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

61. LOL

Mine too. My sisters ask me all the time, "When's this political season done, November?" I'll call ya back then. I can hear them all gasping and see the look of terror when they think they may have mentioned something that might prompt me to talk politics.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

7. Actually I don't understand any of what you have written here.

And I am, indeed, not sure what you are driving at.

The one thing I CAN state, withour qualificatiuon, is that there is NOTHING that I "love" about the Bush administration, who are a gang of murderers and war-criminals.

[frankly_fedup2]

87. I am so confused????

I'm new here (basically, since the money drive). I joined as a monthly contributor. However, since that time, all I have seen is I can't do this, you can't say that, you will be deleted, etc.

I have had no actual debate on this board since I joined because I don't know what I am allowed to post and what I am not.

I lurked for a while, but never really did get into the BBs.

The one rule that gets me is not being able to compare Bush to (you know who). Plus, I have never done that and never would. BUT and that's a BIG BUT, this man is not MY president. He was not elected, and he has all but ruined this country. Why can I not give my totally honest opinion about him without the worry of getting booted off after 3 or 4 warnings (Whichever! I haven't even had time to READ all the rules, much less post on the BBs).

I came to DU thinking, maybe by getting involved with some of the other members, we could share ideas, thoughts, rants and raves, and debates (which get heated at times . . . anybody heard of Carville?), and maybe even change things and make a difference.

I'm not so sure now. I may just take my butt and my monthly contribution with me somewhere else . . . where debate includes "Freedom of speech."

[wryter2000]

8. I didn't start out angry

The ridiculous attacks against my candidate made me angry. Luckily, I managed to avoid lots of them, so I have little anger to get over. I'm behind our nominee 100% and will back him with some of my hard-earned $$$. But as far as Kerry goes, if he had anything to do with that Osama commercial, he deserves whatever anger he encounters here, imho.

[nomaco-10]

9. See post 24 in the Wise Men "Let's be Clear" thread....

That might give you a clue.

[CalProf]

10. Yeah, I think this is part of it

but, at least according to Malcolm Gladwell in The Tipping Point, people tend to be nastier online than they are in person. Gladwell's view matches my experience, that's for sure.

I think if you add this online nastiness to the disgust for politics you've noted, you get DU GD Primary 2004.

[Duder]

11. Or it could be like Sam Smith said:

...

'In the wake of Wisconsin, however, those who have been prattling about Kerry's electability might wish to pause for a reassessment. According to the exit poll, Edwards received more than twice as much support from Republicans as did Kerry and 40% more support from independents. The Kerry electability argument has been dubious from the start; now thanks to Wisconsin we have the proof.

Further, familiarity in the case of Kerry does not breed fondness. We have found those knowledgeable of his career to be at best apologetic or forgiving of a man who is clearly boring, arrogant, shifting, and narcissistic. On the other hand, the adjectives for Edwards by those who know him fall into the likable, pleasant, nice guy genre. With the months we still have to go, the difference is not insignificant.

As for those who share our political distaste for the narrowed choice, there is still plenty of time to hide in the weeds. The Anyone But Bush crowd, the Katrina vanden Heuvels and the like are playing the same dumb game they played when Clinton arrived, stretching themselves out on the bed and saying to candidates largely indifferent to their cause, 'Do what you want with me.'
Clinton did just that and it was the end of any decent progressive politics in this country.

Liberals, unique among political groups, seem to think that appeasement is the key to political power and never seem to notice those in power laughing at them. Even if one eventually decides to vote for Kerry or Edwards, now is no time to let them know it. Learn a lesson from Howard Dean and at least make them change their politics a bit.'

[eileen_d]

12. My take on the anger in this forum

People can't figure out anything better to do with their energy.

I'm not saying the anger or the reasons behind it aren't valid, but spewing it all over an Internet message board is pretty pointless after a while.

I don't exclude myself from these conclusions either.

EDIT: I think littlejoe said it even better in post #5:
This forum is one of the few outlets that people with little or no individual clout have to go and scream our indignations. We tend to step on each other's toes. but most of us are of like mind when it comes to wanting our country back.

[indigo32]

I think you hit the nail on the head

eom

[Zomby Woof]

16. the question is...

Why is Lucy angry? ;-) (love the avatar!)

[deutsey]

20. We should change our name to FU

Fussbudget Underground, that is.

:evilgrin:

[eileen_d]

25. Thanks! That made me smile

I guess I'll keep my Lucy avatar ;)

[eileen_d]

24. LOL - the Lucy avatar is symbolic of my crabby posts on this forum

- sound and fury from a cartoon version of myself. In real life I'm more like a Marcie in search of a Peppermint Patty. ;)

[rucky]

135. I thought you were going to charge us a nickel...

for all the good psychiatric help :)

[liberalnurse]

28. This board is a processing tool.......

It typically functions as a feedback/discussion forum. Discusssion and sharing openly and honestly; blemishes and all; is what America is all about ......Well, it use to before 2000.

[deutsey]

13. I think the anger emerges more from our stubborn unwillingness

to realize that true politics involves identifying our common ground regardless of our differences, and building together something mutually beneficial on it.

Before the primaries began, when I saw the early signs of venom spitting going on here between different camps, I warned people that one day we're all going to have to come together around the nominee. Let's not bury so many landmines between us that they will make that difficult or impossible for us to unite on that common ground.

Whatever common ground there once was is now so full of those mines, and so many of us here have been blinded by the venom spat at each other, I'm not very hopeful that we'll be able to unite in the way we need to beat Bush.

[lovedems]

14. It's a love/hate relationship for me.

Either I love to hate or I hate loving it. I don't know yet. I don't want my hatred of the chimp to count as hating politics all together though.

While the system may not be perfect, not the participants, I still find it a fascinating process love it? hate it? I guess it just depends on the day and the news for the day.

[Sly Kal]

15. nevermind

not worth it

[Walt Starr]

18. I would answer your post with my opinion

but then I would be banned.

[John_H]

19. The anger is because most want the Dems to win. It's just that

we disagree about the best way to do it. We want to beat chimp so badly that we feel doubly passionate about "our" path to victory, and tend to see the method embraced by others as a path to sure defeat.

This is healthy, IMHO. Aside from voters engaged in a temper tantrum because their guy wasn't the choice of everyone else, every Dem deserves an open minded hearing at the very least.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

21. I still love politics too.

You have to realize this is part of the whole thing, this is what politics is. There's always that debate, that bitching, that clawing at your opponent. To see the way everyone does this appeals to the part of me that loves to fight for something. I think most of us are that way, here. Some of us have a certain disdain for politics after all these years- but I think for the most part we all love the fight.

I've been here close to two and a half years, I love politics more now than ever.

[seaglass]

23. Well, my take on it is this.

I came to DU during the summer of 2001 and found a refuge. While many other issues have been discussed and debated on this site and lots of infighting has gone on the underlying and unifying theme was getting Bush out of the White House.

Now when it comes down to it there are a number of people, not a majority, who have lost track or do not care enough about getting Bush out.

The people who express the intent to vote for someone other than the nominee do not share my goal, a goal that I thought all DUers shared. Nor are they on my side. I'm not black and white on many issues - but on this one I am.

[krkaufman]

65. I've begun to follow a simple rule...

... to not reply to any of the unproductive "going third party", "anybody but Kerry", "anybody but Edwards", "anybody but Dean", etc. posts. A quick click of my mouse-button, and the thread is ignored.

Reading such threads just raises my blood pressure, and replying is pointless because those starting the threads are already entrenched in their faith and are immune to my kind of logic.

[VelmaD]

26. Sometimes this place turns into a vicious circle

I can remember being just this angry at the Reagan administration but I didn't have this kind of forum where I could yell about it with like-minded individuals. I think sometimes our collective anger feeds off itself til the sum is greater than the individual parts - we get this kind of meta-anger that permeates the whole board some days (hell it was even seeping into the Lounge the last few days).

We have all this outrage - at the current administration, over the state of the world, over the primaries, etc and we take it out on each other because we're the only ones listening.

[edzontar]

27. I still don't understand you---

Honestly--could you clarify exactly WHY you think there is so much anger here?

I think it is because the remaining "top tier" candidates are so very boring, and all the excitement has been sucked out of the race.

It is very hard to 1. to allow yourself become filled with hope after years of despair... 2. then experience three to four months of relentless bashing of your hopes....and 3. be left with a pair of nothings to choose from.

[Walt Starr]

29. That's why I took a different strategy

I sat back and figured out which of the two candidates was the suckiest and decided to get behind the other.

It's great preaparation for the mindset required this fall!

[Anwen]

45. Exactly.

"It is very hard to 1. to allow yourself become filled with hope after years of despair... 2. then experience three to four months of relentless bashing of your hopes....and 3. be left with a pair of nothings to choose from."


That is most definitely the source of my anger.

[HFishbine]

30. Same premise, different conculsion

Yes, we saw the lies revealed, but the result is not some general anger towards politics in general. The anger springs from an unwillingness to let mendacity stand wherever it may surface.

[West Coast Democrat]

32. DUers follow politics more closely than the average voter

...and we tend to become more fanatical about whom we support. Therefore, it's harder for many of us to move forward after our candidate has not succeeded as hoped, or has dropped out. DUers are also more likely to sling mud, and absolutely abhor those candidates who have been rough on our chosen candidate.

Fortunately, I don't think most of the general electorate thinks this way, nor will they remain bitter by the time November rolls, even if the candidate they voted for is not in contention.

[chiburb]

33. Can't speak for anyone but me...

But I disagree. I was "between gigs" from Nov 2000-Feb 2001 and was glued to CNN 24/7 during the Florida fiasco. It was the 1st time I had immersed myself in politics since 1968, and I realized how interesting the whole process was and how much I missed it.

I think the anger here is because so many folks are going through this selection process for the 1st time, or maybe for the 2nd but with a lot more interest and passion than the 1st (thx BushCo!). When SO much is at stake, and SO much time, money, and heart have been invested in a particular favorite, there's going to be acrimony and dissension as that favorite falls by the wayside in this process of the primaries.

I guess it helps to be a baseball fan: yeah, a loss is hard to take. Yeah, I HATE the Yankees (they're bad for the game/more of the same!), we need restructuring and salary caps, where's the voice of the small-market teams. etc. BUT: hope springs eternal, there's another game today, let's play 2 ! The only difference is that we don't have a NEXT Spring to look forward to after this season, so we better keep our eyes on the prize NOW (or soon enough).

Does this make any sense?

[Toby109]

98. I think I get it.

To further the baseball analogy there are 162 games in a season. To expect to maintain the same amount of enthusiasm over that time is unrealistic. Therefore, you have to take one game at a time(trite but true)and not get too pissed over a loss or too thrilled with a victory. Successful players and managers understand this and act accordingly.

[chiburb]

101. Thank You!!!

I feel better now...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. My anger goes a bit deeper than that

I don't deny some Dems have abandoned some very serious policy issues concerning poverty. I also see much of the impetus for them doing so being due to very volatile groups that strategize under our umbrella.

The recent recall in California underscores my frustration both from conversations had on DU and conversations with the general public, specifically UNION members.

Once the recall was organized, rather than rally against recalling Davis who gave MORE seats to minorities, gays and other groups that volley under the Dem umbrella at the POLICY table than any of the four admins before him, he was abandoned for NOT BEING LEFT enough or not accomodating enough to the various interest groups in favor of Bustamante who actually helped to create a division when we needed to be unified to be forceful and persuasive.

Davis fulfilled the mandate he had been given when first elected five years prior by hiring MORE teachers than the admins before him and improving availability for health care for those most destitue and for rank and file workers.
He set aside more lands for conservations than both of the admins before him but was not pure enough for the environmentalists.

He delivered more benefits for gays including state insurance for LWS partners of gay state employees.

He held OFF developer interests and pursued the ENRON corporate criminals.

He signed a very unpopular bill to provide licenses to immigrants that even the MOST LIBERAL members of the Dem party backed off of once it was their OWN jobs on the line.

Davis was just NOT LEFT ENOUGH for liberal's tastes and it was reflected in his approval ratings at approximately 20%.

Now Arnold is in office and the very POOR PEOPLE that liberals claim to have a bleeding heart for are seeing their desperately needed services on the CHOPPING block because Davis who championed those services simply was NOT PURE enough for liberals who really DON'T understand the vast umbrella of policies involved.

AS one who has worked my ass off for two decades dealing with the sometimes conflicting agendas of environmentalists, the poor, the labor force and union workers along with health care concerns (and that is a lot of infighting)...I'm pretty disgusted not just with politicians but with people who claim to share my liberal ideology but can't see the fucking forest for the fucking trees!

[MrBenchley]

39. Great post!! (n/t)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. Thanks MR B nice to know ONE person read it!

[chiburb]

60. Hey NSMA!

I read it too, and liked it. I wondered (before I read it) if you'd mention the Ca. recall and the attitudes here that caused your brief "timeout". I'm glad you did...

Did you read MINE?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. Yes. I concur

[nolabels]

90. Not only did I read your post, I got to live in the place as it happened

For anybody that missed it, this was a great study of how the people who own the media will choose the people that they want voted for.

Just like they installed *, they did Arnie. Gave us the war on communism, socialism, the war on drugs, the war on terrorism, them fake wars on so many things, the things that they were more guilty of or giving support to than anything they ever stopped, cured or mitigated, more than bigots, they are living and making a delusional world that won't last.

[jonnyblitz]

108. I always read your posts.

especially lately.

[BruinAlum]

47. can't see the fucking forest for the fucking trees

excellent analogy

[Nimble_Idea]

63. I didn't know trees were so sexual

oh well

[Zomby Woof]

49. a-freakin'men!!!!

*ZombyHighFive* :donut:

[MuseRider]

58. Damn, you are good!

Very fine post NSMA.

[littlejoe]

I think that this is a prime example of what is happening in

this country, and most of us here in DU feel a sense of urgency to right all of these wrongs.

[littlejoe]

73. I think that this is a prime example of what is happening in

this country, and most of us here in DU feel a sense of urgency to right all of these wrongs.

[NightNurse]

102. Here! Here! (Pounding Walking stick on Cyber Wooden floor)

Well put indeed! My brother in law (teachers and profs must run in my husbands family!)teaches in the L.A. Unified District. Everyone with UNDER 7 years experience is getting MASS Pink Slipped by AHnold in June!

Cute huh?

Suppose they gave a Coup D' Etat in Cali and nobody cared?
:kick:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

109. Yes...the CTLA was pissed over 600 job losses under Davis' cuts

and ponied up to Arnold..now look at them...and I BLAME THEIR LEADERSHIP! They got screwed. There will be MORE cuts that will be mandated if the bond issue passes (sort of like an in country austerity progam) and their lack of support and recognizing on which side their bread is buttered sealed their own fate.

[CalProf]

105. Totally agree, NSMA. n/t

[David Zephyr]

111. The Left Did Not Bring Davis Down, The Right Did.

Your anger at the Left is morphing into the Davis Recall.

There is no more solid left wing voting area in the state of California than the City of San Francisco, which by the way, almost elected a Green Candidate to the Mayor's Office over a Democrat...and yet, Davis' motherlode of anti-recall votes came out of San Francisco, NSMA. Check out the election returns from the City by the Bay and compare it with all other California metro areas. The Left came through for Davis, moderate Democrats didn't.

Leftwingers did not pay for the Recall, Congressman Issa did.

It was the middle of the road, lukewarm to moderate Democrats that flocked to the polls after being stupid enough to buy into the Right's continous assault on Davis.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

112. Not so. The SF and Bay Area votes is just as indicative of the fact that

black people as a demographic voted 90% against the recall than the other factions of the left. His approval ratings were in place LONG before the recall indicating that even if people voted differently, the sinking ship effect was already in place.

Bustamante's own plan (and I DO include Bustamante in the left) was to get people who were more liberal or latino to vote YES RECALL and YES Bustamante...some did.

I am familiar with the dynamics on this...I spoke to thousands of people. I KNOW what I heard coming back at me on the phone and in person.

on edit: And let's not forget Camejo actively encouraged the recall petitions being signed. Even with the money Issa dumped into it, Costa had a big job to do to get the petitions signed. Camejo supported this and that likely turned into recal petitions being enabled by the deadline...it would be interesting to see how many had Santa Cruz and similar addresses in close proximity to college campuses.

[David Zephyr]

124. You Are Completely Correct.

Davis was recalled from office by a vast conspiracy of ultra-leftists, socialists and greens.

It had nothing to do whatsoever with the right-wing, the Republican Party, Arnold's celebrity and the Corporate Media's fascination with him, and an army of protestant fundamentalists and religious fanatics fixated on Gray Davis.

It was left-wingers -- you know, NSMA, like me -- who conspired in our bohemian opium dens to bring Gray Davis down by voting against the recall and urging others to do the same.

You are absolutely correct in your saying so.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

126. Quite hyperbolic David

My point was that rather than make a unified front, the Democratic party has to get boxed between the ears from both sides. The momentum anyone left of center could have is short-circuited by the infighting for the podium. The Democratic party was fairly well united in California in Nov 02 even though the state was a mess..then the infighting began and the message became muddled due to competing interests.

Did MODERATE Dems force Davis to sign the bill for immigrant licenses? One of the most divisive issues in the recall....or was that conservatives that put the gun to Davis' head and then backed off with their fucking tails between their legs once it was clear THEIR jobs would suffer as well if they stuck to their principles?

[arwalden]

116. Bravo! (I Keep Saying That... I Need A New Word For Your Posts.)

They are very naive and selfish.

-- Allen

[Carolina]

37. We don't hate politics

We hate the ascendancy of certain politicians on both sides of the aisle.

We hate that the GOP wins elections through deception and pandering while Democrats (with few exceptions for the last 3 years) rollover and wimp out

We hate * with an unmitigated passion

We hate the media

So, we turn to DU to vent our hate, disgust and frustration; and sometimes, especially now, it gets a little ugly even here. But it's like a bad job or a bad day on the job and then you go home and rant to the family. We don't hate politics, though. In fact, I think we're among the few who follow it so closely because we LOVE it and realize its life or death importance to everyone.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

57. Well I am not so angry or insane as to suggest POISONING people...

THAT seems to be going a little too far, even in jest....

[deutsey]

84. Well, I'm not suggesting that either

:shrug:

First of all, how would one distribute donuts, poisoned or otherwise, on an Internet discussion board? :silly:

Second of all, my comment was in response to ZW's rather snippy assessment of why people here are angry.

After making such an assessment, I imagined that ZW would be passing out arsenic-glazed donuts.

[edzontar]

91. HMMMMM

Well I for one am against poisoning people, and did not find the exchange funny in the context of today's exchanges.

[VelmaD]

43. DAMN Zomby!

Leave it to you to neatly and succinctly sum it all up. :yourock:

Now gimme a donut. :-)

[Zomby Woof]

46. here ya go!

:donut: With fresh ZombyCoffee!

[littlejoe]

74. Why discriminate, woof? Stupidity is everywhere.

DUers don't have the market cornered.

[Options Remain]

40. Its actually a hard concept to grasp in our current culture

People have a hard time understanding why good people of sound mind can disagree with good people of sound mind.

For example the civil marriage debate. On one side we have good people who think they are doing the right thing passionately. And on the other side we have good people who think they are doing the right thing passionately. (mix in a few hateful individuals) and we get anger. When really these people sit side by side at work at church, face the same challenges, have the same friends, live in the same neighborhood, and share common principles. Yet both are angry with the other as they cannot understand how both sides can be right. The problem is both sides need to address the same issue from the same direction to reach accord rather than conflict.

The looking glass determines accord or conflict. (how you look at an issue) All media seems to shade conflict rather than accord. The internet with its lack of decorum and the news media with it-bleeds-it-leads sensationalism of conflict.

Does that help your thought process Will?

TearForger

p.s. please refrain from hijacking this thread on the civil marriage issue. I will gladly discuss it elsewhere.

[libview]

44. Then of course there are some people on this board

who think there smarter than everyone else.

[Walt Starr]

48. Not to mention the ones

that consider themselves above all us rabble!

[Screaming Lord Byron]

78. Canadians, Walt. We have a name you know!

;)

[WilliamPitt]

51. I know what you mean

[ibegurpard]

55. apparently not

eom

[chiburb]

62. Or at least know how to use spellcheck.... n/t

.

[krkaufman]

67. they are = they're, not there

> who think there smarter than everyone else.

FYI... The contraction for "they are" is "they're", and not "there."


p.s. I opehay ouyay owknay I'may iddingkay.

[libview]

137. I get all warm inside when you correct my english.

oooohhhh........

[chiburb]

77. Like those that post...

Things like this:

"Dean, Clark, or Edwards would have been much better. Kerry is going to get creamed in the south, he flip flops on issues, and says whatever you want to hear.
He comes off like a cross between Lurch and Thurston Howell the 3rd.
He has no real accomplishments in his 30 some odd years in the senate.
He does not vote his conscience, he votes to be popular, and frankly he is just an opportunist (marries only very rich woman), wants to be called JFK (gimmi a fuckin break), what an embarrassment
We are dead with this guy, god I wish Clark stayed in and the intern story was true. we, and this country would be allot better off.
Other than that I have no strong feelings on the matter."

Or this:
Re Dean:

"(shaking my head)
he needs to go back to Vermont and do some rectal exams"

Yep, thank God for those smarter people that add so much to the intelligent discourse here!

[libview]

136. hey, I'm quite proud of those particular posts.

thanks for the compliment.

[littlejoe]

92. I don't know about you,

but I don't go around thinking I'm dumber than anyone else.

[Nederland]

52. DU is angry because DU is the Minority

People here are angry because people hate to lose.

The bottom line is that people here at DU hold minority opinions on practically every issue, and, in a Democracy, that means you lose. Now don't give me this Al Gore won the election crap. You know perfectly well that 1) Al Gore is no where near as liberal as people here would like him to be, and 2) most of the 48% of the electorate that voted for Al Gore don't share your ideals either.

Face it. The vast majority of people in this country do not share the positions that people here at DU share. The result of this fact is that political parties, which are trying to win elections, are not going to nominate people that share your views. Like it or not, until you get more people in this country to hold the type of far left views pushed by people here, DU will continue to see people it likes lose primaries and elections. And DU will continue to be angry.

If you want to stop losing, you have to change what people in this country believe. The mistake is to believe that the best place to accomplish this is in an election. Its not. People don't change their mind on an issue when they hear a politician talk. By the point election time comes around people already know where they stand and they go shopping for a candidate that shares those views.

If you want to change the way this country thinks about issues you have to work long before an election begins and you have to work outside the political process. This is the thing that the far right grasps that the far left does not. The far right locks up its people through the activities of think tanks and churches that ostensibly have nothing to do with politics. The ideals of the far right are nurtured in these places long before election time. That's how elections are won, that's why we keep losing.

Maybe I'm missing it, but I'm thinking that if we win a few elections all this anger will go away.

[WilliamPitt]

56. Actually

I think a lot of people here revel in losing. I think a lot of people here find it righteous to be pure in defeat than victorious in compromise. I think losing is street cred around here.

[Nederland]

59. Wow

Scary how much truth I see in that.

[VelmaD]

68. Winning isn't everything, but losing SUCKS!

:-)

[edzontar]

71. I think that is rather off base and uncalled for.

No one WANTED their candidate to "LOSE...."

There are disappointed feelings around here this days.

It is not so hard to understand THAT.

[WilliamPitt]

72. I'm not talking about any specific candidate

but more of a meta-attitude.

[VelmaD]

75. We totally agree on this one...

unsurprising I know. :-) It's that attitude as displayed in the various "I'm gonna go 3rd party" or "I'm just not gonna vote in the General Election" threads that makes me nuts. Fine - stay at home and enjoy your moral purity instead of taking the best candidate option available, getting them elected, and then working to make them do the right thing.

This attitude is part of what drove me away from politics the first time back in college. I got tired of the people I was involved in various far-left causes with who didn't have the word compromise in their vocabulary. I got really tired of losing all the time because we couldn't start with small victories and build - we always had to go for everything and lose. I also got really tired of being told I wasn't pure enough or left enough or whatever enough because I was willing to take what I could get when I could get it.

[littlejoe]

80. In a rare moment, you and I agree on something.

Many of the DUers whose threads or replies I read, most definitely love wallowing in their own self-ritousness.

[BruinAlum]

86. Exactly

Righteous and pure and principled. As in go 3rd Party or stay home and martyr themselves in defeat.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

96. My responses...I kinda sorta agree but not totally

People here are angry because people hate to lose.

Far too many people have so much of their identity rooted in the underdog syndrome, that I think they love to lose more than they will admit and unless a win is a win on all fronts rather than a reasonable compromise will frame the win as a loss (see my post above on Gray Davis)

The bottom line is that people here at DU hold minority opinions on practically every issue, and, in a Democracy, that means you lose. Now don't give me this Al Gore won the election crap. You know perfectly well that 1) Al Gore is no where near as liberal as people here would like him to be, and 2) most of the 48% of the electorate that voted for Al Gore don't share your ideals either.

Many positions here are indeed reasonable but end up being framed in a manner where only the minority can completely support them. I think most people can see the problem and injustice with a CEO of a losing company making 500 times the worker's pay but when you start talking about pulling corporate charters to spite those CEO's to the detriment of those workers, people aren't going to get on board...nobody wants to be complicit in their own demise but for the people cited in my first point to you above.


If you want to stop losing, you have to change what people in this country believe. The mistake is to believe that the best place to accomplish this is in an election. Its not. People don't change their mind on an issue when they hear a politician talk. By the point election time comes around people already know where they stand and they go shopping for a candidate that shares those views.

Part of that has to do with a poor grasp of multifactorial issues i.e. trade..bilateral agreements etc....but also it is quite difficult to generate short cut language to combat the right. They say "welfare queen" or "lucky ducky" we are forced to respond with actual negative consequences of policy requiring more thought than the average attention span.


If you want to change the way this country thinks about issues you have to work long before an election begins and you have to work outside the political process. This is the thing that the far right grasps that the far left does not. The far right locks up its people through the activities of think tanks and churches that ostensibly have nothing to do with politics. The ideals of the far right are nurtured in these places long before election time. That's how elections are won, that's why we keep losing.

The right accomplished this over a period of 30 years. We live in an age of instant gratification where any ground not gained equals a complete "sell-out"

[Nederland]

104. I like what you said about Corporations

Many positions here are indeed reasonable but end up being framed in a manner where only the minority can completely support them. I think most people can see the problem and injustice with a CEO of a losing company making 500 times the worker's pay but when you start talking about pulling corporate charters to spite those CEO's to the detriment of those workers, people aren't going to get on board...nobody wants to be complicit in their own demise but for the people cited in my first point to you above.

I agree with this completely. I recognize that on economic issues I hold views that are well to the right of many people here. However, I'd like to think that those views are far more typical of the average voter. Like most people, I'm disgusted by the ridiculous salaries that many CEO's pull in. However, I'm opposed to pulling corporate charters or even government mandated salary caps. Would I be in favor of preventing state and union pension plans from investing in companies that pay their CEO's more than 50 times what their average work makes? Sure. That's the difference between a belief that the system is broken versus the belief that the system is fundamentally flawed. The later view, while rare among the general population, is common here.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

110. That's one possible solution..the other is to tie subsidies and tax breaks

to labor rights.

Funny..I used to almost always vehemently disagree with your positions and think I still do on some issues, but I can at least work with someone open to negotiation.

I see just as much totalitarian thought being professed on DU by the left as I see on the right lately, and that polarization leaves me very concerned for our future as a society.

[bobthedrummer]

53. You used to have a sigline that read "Anger is a gift", I liked that one

A gift that can be used against fear of what another 4 years of BFEE "leadership" could mean.

I channeled the anger I felt when Wisconsin failed to deliver any delegates to Dennis Kucinich. I encourage all DUers and visitors that live in States that haven't voted to vote for Dennis Kucinich and his vision of the future.

Send a message to the Democratic Party.

Most of all save the anger to get rid of George W. Bush this November.
ABB even if you have to hold back the bile when voting.

But as for the immediate future you have the power to vote for Dennis Kucinich in your State. It will do your troubled soul good to do that.

[krkaufman]

54. I'm angry about people telling me why I'm ANGRY!!!

Ok, kidding. Did ya think you'd elicit such negativity, WP?

Thanks for trying, though.

Everybody views their candidate as the one, best hope for the future, and willingness to compromise for a common goal and how to achieve that goal doesn't seem to be a universal trait.

[TheDonkey]

66. Some people would rather stay mad then try to move on.

but that is just for DU.

In America in general Democrats are uniting unlike anything pundints and rethugs have seen before... they are terrified.

[demnan]

69. I think the anger over the Iraq war

was mobilized into the campaign. That's what many of the Dean people were, opponents of the war.

If I can speak for myself (and perhaps for others) I'll just say many of us are sick about the Iraq war and the tax cuts for the rich and the willingness of front runners to go along with the war.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

70. I think it's a case of idealists and cynics.

Dean's campaign brought a lot of idealists into the fold. They geniunely can't believe Howard Dean won't be President. I have deep respect for that, but I'm a cynic. I'll take what can be won, not what should be. Our challenge is to use the idealism for change. It won't be easy.

On edit - For me, Politics is like sports. I appreciate how awful that sounds, but this is my truth, tell me yours.

[Desertrose]

76. if people didn't care...they wouldn't be so angry....

We're angry because on whatever level...we ultimately give a shit...whether its only about our values, the issues, the country,the people,even if only for our candidate.

If we weren't somehow attached to the outcome we wouldn't be angry...but hell, we're human and we have just witnessed the unbelievable arrogance of an administration that cares only for its own agenda...and in the process of grabbing and taking what it wants, tramples over every damn thing we care about....and we are left feeling helpless and at times even hopeless -which in my book is even worse.

We hope everyone will see things our way...or at least "get it" and when they don't....it can only add to the frustration and feed the anger-if we let it.

For me the attraction to DU is beyond politics...never been particularly political...certainly has been interesting and educational though...I am hoping that ultimately, we can all come together-well OK a lot of us can come together.....but understanding human nature...I am trying not to become toooo attached to that.
:evilgrin:

Peace
...I wish...
DR

[DeepModem Mom]

79. I think we're in an area here beyond politics, and probably...

have been since DU's founding, which I understand came out of the need to communicate after a stolen election. A stolen election has little to do with politics. But unless we intend to mount an armed revolution, we have little but politics, and understanding of history, to restore legitimate government to this country. The danger to our system from the "nasty, brutal, cowardly" cabal now in power, and the fact that they are enabled by a media not fulfilling its role as envisioned in the Constitution, cannot be dismissed or even underestimated. Nor can we afford to forget that during the tenuous days in which our system was created, political compromise was not only necessary, but part of the reason the system worked and has endured.

Compromise can become cowardice, however, and it took Dr. Dean to give us our courage back. He will now work for his ideals, but he will compromise and support a chosen candidate if it means ridding us of George W. Bush. Some here, however, are so angry that they vow never to compromise again. They would risk throwing it all away, rather than compromise. They would risk a consolidation of power so unprecedented, and truly brutal, that they may have lost their last chance to reform any party, or elect any candidate. And that's why I'm angry.

[IrateCitizen]

81. Not. Even. Close.

What I feel more often that not in reference to "politics" is more frustration and disappointment than anger anymore.

I'm disappointed that a significant number of people in the Democratic Party are such proponents of democratic process that they advocate eliminating people from the debates who have not ended their candidacy.

I'm frustrated that points of view like my own, although I do not delude myself that they are majority opinions, are not even given the time of day in the mainstream "news".

I'm frustrated that my favored candidate has not even been mentioned in the NYT for about the past 3 weeks outside of listing his campaign stops, despite two third-place finishes.

I'm disappointed by what passes for serious debate in this country -- and how derelict our media has become in performing its essential duty to democracy.

To be quite honest, I could go on and on with this list. But this is a start. I can honestly understand how Howard Beal felt in "Network" when he said, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

[THUNDER HANDS]

82. there's an obvious reason you've overlooked Will

There's no sex threads in this forum. :D

Too much bottled up emotion. We all need a release every now and then.

[fishnfla]

83. I think you're half wrong

People are angry at the chimp and the way the last election went BUT now he is very vunerable. People here feel responsible for helping to beat up and tear down the * admin. There is blood in the water and the sharks are circling so to speak.

With the chimp on the ropes, there is a power struggle to replace him. As you would say, WRP, even a ham sandwich could replace and out perform the chimp.

With the prize easily within reach for just about any other candidate, there is going to be alot of pushing,shoving,shouting and yelling to take charge.

[nolabels]

85. The acrimony is stifling, ha ha

The best thing is finding out there is that place. So if you felt bad now, just how bad would you feel if * got four more years. I wouldn't care if Micky Mouse really did take the reigns from the fella. It all don't matter to me, my vote was stolen and anything that happened after that, was not of matter either. They can spin it any and all the ways they want, I don't really care, for in the end the fraud has to go.

I feel good knowing people would vote for others knowing the number one reason for their vote is to get * our of office. No amount of sweet talking will probably change such people, they have become like us, politicized.

I might have a hard time pumping for the people are left to support, but that is because I am not easily led around, but I do trust others and know that they also have some of them same similar singular problems.

It is a shame there is so much time that has to spent to unplug this single guy, but many know it must be done

If you are knowing a lot of things that others don't want you or other people to know, then you have had a burden placed upon you.

Do you believe others have gotten the best of you, are you getting resentful, or showing yourself to be weak, have they beaten you down to a point where you can't go on. Or have you just began to take back them things that belong to you.

Frauds always want you to feel dirty, stupid or not worthwhile after they have done a deed against you. If that stolen vote was a thousand dollars instead of your vote how would you feel? If you knew the fraud to be that criminal felon how would it feel?

If ten, twenty,a hundred, a thousand, tens of hundreds of, millions, even billions had the same thing happen to them, would you feel bad? Feel bad for yourself, feel bad for everybody else? Or would be thinking something has to be done about it? Well that did happen, so are you going to be mad at them other people because they let happen to you, or even because they let happen to anybody else. Or do you think maybe it would be better to if something was done about that fraud.

I am going to be working against that fraud

[goodhue]

88. I love politics

And I am very hopeful so long as Dennis John Kucinich is in the race.

[Crewleader]

93. We have to process the change once the nominee is chosen!

We all have a hell alot of anger, some more then others depends what as happened on a personal note but overall the Bush administration has struck such levels of hate towards himself and his administration from all of us.

The issues are not for us as Americans to decide but what Bush wants in his policies which favor corporations, no doubt there and that enrages us the bolt nerve of doing things he has done.
Pre-emptive, better wording (A Invasion of Iraq to take down Saddam)with the expense of the taxpayers and the loved ones from families who's sons and daughters fought because of choice not necessity.

Most of us can't stand to look at him when he smirks, he's just not connected or cares about the struggles for working families. Out sourcing jobs and wanting cheap labor here with the three year work program he suggested. Killing over-time for those who need it most, that one he should be ashamed of, but doesn't hit a nerve only to cater to his corporate buddies. This administration is squeezing out middle-class as we know it.

We all felt the anger after the shock when the votes stopped being counted in Florida, and then when Bush was being sworn in, fear came over me what will he do to this country.The DU banner was shown on MSNBC that rainy depressing day, it gives us all a home to meet. Where we can discuss what just happened and to come together in unity to make sure this doesn't happen again. To put a Democrat back in the oval office, at the time I thought it would be Gore,then Clark captured my spirit and still does. It saddened me he dropped out and angered me too. But I see the big picture and in that frame I would hope all candidates are involved with the one candidate who is nominated.Everyone of them has given so much to the Democratic Party and we as supporters' love them for it.Our fight is their fight and their enemy is our enemy, George W. Bush!
He has taken us all down a path we didn't want to go.

The Media has alot of us angered as we were in 2000, they don't care for truth, just push their agenda and destroy who they don't like.
They made alot of us disgusted but they won't stop us with the majority votes for the nominee in Nov.and it's a win for the people!

Any candidate we had in this primary would be better then Bush and whoever is the nominee we will take that anger and vote for Bush To Go and let us as Americans start to heal from the shit we have had in the last four years with Bush and the ones who wanted Clinton impeached. The Republican Party has nothing in their agenda for the people and history keeps repeating itself with their actions.

With anger brings hope that we as Americans stay on the path that takes care of our families and one another with peace on earth!
We need each other here and throughout our country so everyone is in the big picture! :-)

[BootinUp]

103. very nice, can I borrow that?

[Crewleader]

106. Anytime friend!

:hi:

[BootinUp]

107. merci beaucoup!

:hi:

[Dhalgren]

94. I think that the real source of anger is found in your first

paragraph. We have this marvelous crucible called DU where everyday we get the relavant news squeezed out from the husks and distilled for us. We get the news from all over the world, almost as soon as it is released. And we get some pretty damned good commentary and debate on each and every item. By the end of the day we are not only well informed, but have heard discussions of the issues from every side. We know what is going on and we have given it thought. Then we turn to our neighbors or our co-workers - even like-minded ones - and they haven't a clue! You try to break it down for them, to share you resource and they just don't seem to "get it". This can cause a huge amount of frustration and anger - it may be price you pay for wanting all this access and information.

[BootinUp]

95. I am so angry, that

I can't even talk about it. :grr:

(I tried too)

[MadHound]

99. My take

Many people here(myself included), and many who don't even know that DU exists are angry for one reason. They see that no matter who is in the White House, or DC in general doesn't really give a damn about them or their concerns. They see that it doesn't matter if it is a Dem or 'Pug, the politics of corporate cronyism is going to continue. It doesn't matter whether or not they have a D or R behind their name, the one group that politicians look out for first, foremost and always are their corporate masters. It doesn't matter if they are Dem or 'Pug, the first(and sometimes only) thing that matters is money, money for re-election, money for the next campaign, money for paying off election debt, money for individual gain. Voters' wishes, constituents' wishes, even if these wishes are the right and moral thing to do, all come in a distant second(at best) to the overarching concern of money.

Money, and the corporations who twist our government around their finger using it, has become the primary purpose of our government. No longer are the concerns of the people heard, much less met, unless monetary gain is involved. The governmental(and by extension corporate) pursuit of monetary gain has sent us into immoral and illegal wars, it has ripped large holes in our Constitution, it has needlessly polluted our country and the world at large, it has divided our society, and set one against the other in scrambling for the scraps from the corporate/governmental table.

This process has been ongoing and subtle. Signs have been there for fifty years or more, if one knew where to look. But the boom of the post war years, along with the Cold War secrecy kept many many details from the public view. But now as resources start becoming scarce, as the Baby Boomers and their children realize that they cannot have the prosperity or oppurtunity their parents and grandparents had, a questioning attitude and abiding cynicism have developed amongst the population at large. And with the advent of the Information Age, and the disappearnce of the Cold War, unprecedented amounts of information on how the we the people have been, are, and will be screwed is becoming instantly available.

Combine this with the open and out front abandonment of core Democratic constituents and positions, especially during the Clinton years, and you have a societal mixture that is ready to either ignite a civil war, or a revolution to take our government back from the hands of the corporatists. Having a Democrat willing to pander to corporate profit ala Clinton and NAFTA, and then adding injury to injury by ripping away our societal safety net via welfare "reform" is not an easy pill to take by anyone. Having Democrats further blur the lines by voting for an illegal war(and flying in the face of their constituents by doing so), voting to do away with large chunks of our constitution via the Patriot Act, these among other recent matters have all but cemented the deal in many many peoples' heads; both parties have now sole out to big business.

You see the expression of this anger expressed in many ways. The '02 election should have been a wake up slap for the New Dems, continue to walk down the corporate whore path, and loyal Dems will stay home in droves. Apparently that didn't work, since in looks like the new Dems are all set for the corporate coranation of their boy Kerry. Perhaps by resolutely voting third party the population will get their dissatisfaction across. But that didn't work in '00, and it will take years before we know if it is being effective. Some are have hunkered down, merely wishing to survive. Others are loudly taking to the streets. And a few are working on one of the few hopeful solutions to this dillema, publicly financed election campaigns.

But no matter what happens, a solution needs to be found soon. Otherwise we explode into the anarchy and agony of a second civil war, or quietly whimper under the heel of a corporate totalitarianism. These are the futures we face if we don't take our government back. Working within the party to effect change has been tried and proven ineffective. If we wish to prevent the train wreck coming down the tracks, we the people have to take matters into our own hands while we still can. The rise of a third party unattached by monetary strings to corporations is one good way to effect real change. The other is to start working on publicly financed election campaigns.

The time to start is now. Effective change can be achieved but only by working outside of the corporately corrupted two party system. If we don't start soon, then it will be too late for all of us, and our country.

[scarletwoman]

138. Dead on, MadHound!

And, in reference to your sig line, we of the "small axes" must strike at the ROOTS.

I'm not angry, just very sad. The deep changes that are needed in this country will never come from the top, they must come from within the consciousness of the citizenry. Politics as usual means studious avoidance of bringing up anything that might stir that consciousness to a fully awakened perpception of the truth of the power structures to which "our" government is beholden.

sw

[incapsulated]

100. You're angry, I'm angry, we're all angry!!

*does best Magenta laugh*

Actually, what I was angry about had less to do with politics in the general sense, and a lot more to do with the DNC, the media and rush to choose a candidate, as if that where some guarantee of sucess.

Kerry was always my number 2 choice, so I should be happy, right? Wrong. I'm resigned. I'm not steaming with anger anymore, but I'm disgusted with the process and I want to see it changed.

Right now, I'm still licking my wounds and watching from the sidelines.

[hedda_foil]

113. No Will, I don't think you have figured it out at all.

But ambition (which is neither a positive nor a negative trait) can, like strong drink, be blinding. It's saddening that your passion for the rough and tumble of take-no-prisoners politics has, at least temporarily, interfered with your normally superb powers of analysis.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

114. It's my fault

because I was such a jerk to Dean when he was the frontrunner.

[kaitykaity]

115. We agree with each other about this big stuff, but

we're all so mad at the Bush crime family that we take that anger out on each other.

My mother is a McGovern liberal. I'm a Dean Democrat, okay so you'd think we would agree on almost everything.

Okay, when the election was stolen in 2000, we could not talk about it. We both so angry about what happened, that we would end up yelling at each other, even though we were agreeing with each other.

I think that's what DU is, only on a very grand scale.

[Shanty Oilish]

117. ROFL!!

"Politics in the last three years has been Hobbesian...There hasn't been a lot of conviction and honor in politics for the last 30 years...
"Me, I'm a cynical bastard..."

Left out a couple of zeroes in there, didn't you? What happens when someone sprinkles a few flakes of conviction and honor in a shark tank? It just sinks to the bottom, eventually.

[nomatrix]

118. Please audition for speech writer

for one of these candidates Will. They need what you have.

Not being a writer myself, the emotion is best described in the movie Poltergeist.

"Now hold onto yourselves. There is one more thing, A terrible presence is in there with her, so much rage, so much betrayal. I never sensed anything like it. I don’t know what hovers over this house, but it was strong enough to punch a hole into this world and take your daughter away from you. It keeps Carol Ann close to it and away from the spectral light.
It lies to her. It says things to her only a child can understand. He’s been using her to restrain the others. To her it is simple another child. To us, it is the Beast."

"Now let’s go get your daughter."

[maxanne]

119. sorry

I don't think this begins to touch on why a lot of us are angry. Many of us hoped for a change in the Democratic party and what we're being given is business as usual. More empty promises and empty suits.

We may hate politics, but the politics we've come to hate are related directly to the DNC and the corrupt upper echelon of the party.

The good news is that if the religious right could take over the Republican party, perhaps the left wing of the Democratic party can launch a coup.

[Snivi Yllom]

120. hindsight can be interesting

WilliamPitt (10856 posts) Oct-07-02, 07:34 PM (ET)
The Democratic Party has finally lost me
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=9613&forum=DCForumID60

With a few notable exceptions, Democrats in the Senate appear prepared to give George W. Bush everything he wants regarding war with Iraq. No matter that a vast majority of Americans do not want this war, no matter that the case for war has not been made, no matter that the international community repudiates such action, and no matter that this push for war has been put forth by the White House in a cynical attempt to deflect public attention from gross mismanagement of the government, and away from the catastrophes within the business community. Democratic House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt surrendered last week, and Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle is preparing to lead GOP mouthpieces like Joe Lieberman in a total capitulation to Bush's plans.

For one, brief, shining moment two weeks ago, it appeared the Democrats would stand up to the incredibly dangerous program put forth by the Bush administration. Al Gore spoke publicly and caustically about Bush's ham-fisted handling of the economy, and the variety of ways war with Iraq will make the world a more dangerous place for America. Senators Byrd and Kennedy likewise excoriated the administration. Daschle stood in the well of the Senate and demanded an apology from Bush, after Bush flatly stated that Democrats did not care about the security of the United States. Byrd and Kennedy have since been hung out to dry, and Daschle has proven himself to be unworthy of the title of leader. His little temper tantrum at the podium is bitter dust in the mouths of every American who hoped that, finally, finally, the Democrats would make a stand.

Because these jellyfish cannot find within themselves the courage to be moral, because the truth is not in them, because they have decided to accept the spoon-fed poison of Karl Rove's Machiavellian disinformation campaign, it might serve any American who reads this to be reminded of the truth, and the stakes, in this matter.

[LosinIt]

134. Funny how passions can change so.

"Democrats in the Senate appear prepared to give George W. Bush everything he wants regarding war with Iraq" Let review, just who were these Democrats that had Mr. Pitt so fired up???? I guess the passion died when he saw something in it for him.

[wyldwolf]

121. Just a comment or two - ignore it if you'd like...

Seems to me that it is human nature to want to fix things that are perceived as being broken. The drive to do this becomes even more strong when one has a passion for the entity that is perceived to need repairing.

When I worked in radio, there was often power struggles at the various stations over the direction of the programming. The station was perceived as needing to be repaired when the ratings were down and there was no shortage of people wanting to weigh in on what the solution was. Sales people. Administratives. Disc Jockeys. Owners. All had the perfect plan to elevate the ratings and and rescue the station.

But sometimes it got more personal - like when the ratings were great and, demographically speaking, they couldn't be any better. At these moments, people would still bicker about the music being played, the timing of the news, and other essential programming elements.

See. The ultimate goal had been achieved (good ratings) but they were not achieved in the way some wanted them to be achieved so the way they were achieved was "flawed."

I remember once, while music director at the #1 station in a deep south southern market I worked in, I was told by a salesmen that the station would never be be better because we played too many songs by young artists. One consultant angrily told me that ONE song was the reason we could not improve our ratings (Good Stuff by the B-52s) We were #1 for pete's sake!

Such is politics.

We believe the "system" was severely broken in 2000 and we all want to fix it. In fact, before the primary season, we were all essentially unified in what we believed was the solution to fixing the system - replacing Bush with one of our own guys.

Well, now, if the polls hold, we will achieve our main objective - replacing Bush with one of our guys.

But now, like in the radio example above, it has gotten personal. Everyone thinks the goal will not truly be met unless their guy is the one who replaces Bush.

Anyone else and the system will still be flawed. It won't be enough to be #1 because we could have been MORE #1 if only Dean/Kucinich/Clark/Edward/Kerry/Graham/Sharpton/Braun/Gephardt had been the guy instead of Dean/Kucinich/Clark/Edward/Kerry/Graham/Sharpton/Braun/Gephardt.

We'll be #1, but because we didn't attain it in the way some feel it should have been attained, some will not be satisfied.

So, why is there so much anger in this forum? It has dawned on some that THEIR way won't be the route back to #1. It's personal and it is sad.

[flaminbats]

122. That's why different forums on some nights is good for the nerves.

Instead of always posting at DU on my free nights, I have gone to other forums to express my opinions. This has allowed me to keep two things in mind, first it is a mistake for us Democrats to routinely beat each other up senselessly over the same damned issues. And also, it has taught me that most Republicans are cowards...unwilling and unable to engage coherent policy debates!

To put it another way..when a Democrat moves into a forum full of Republicans, the majority of them run around in a panic like a bunch of beheaded chickens. The one thing that still gives me hope is that there are more intelligent Republicans in these forums who are beginning to turn against Bush, and that nearly all independents hate him as much..if not more than many Democrats!

[DemCam]

123. Revoltingly...I'm not angry.

I was when I started out...before I "fell in love" with Wes Clark and devoted six weeks of my life to nothing but his campaign...put it all on hold, closed my business, and went to the barricades.

Quit cleaning my house...quit cooking...quit seeing my friends...quit DU, except for an occasional read.

And a funny thing has happened.

I don't think our country is in as bad a shape as I thought it was. I think our system works better than I thought it did. I even believe we can survive four more years of Bush...as unpleasant as that prospect is.

I, for now, am a changed woman. There are things I can change...but I can't change the events that ride mankind right now. And I feel terribly calm about it.

I'm sad for my loss...but, as Kris would say..."the going up was worth the coming down."

I love politics more than ever.

This is all a bit sickening, I know...but it's true. At least today.

[BootinUp]

125. At least today

You hit on my problem. How much longer till I hit the calm phase is the question. :)

[RummyTheDummy]

127. I think it's b/c half of DU members.....

Are really big ass holes. Just my two cents, but there's a lot of hatred here. If you don't vote for Dean, you're a Repug. If you vote for Kerry, you're a repug. If you vote for Edwards, you're a repug, Edwards only gets votes b/c repugs can vote in Wisconsin, Kucinich is the only dem, Wes Clark isn't a democrat but a repug plant and on and on and on.

The anger toward Bush is a secondary which is pretty sad.

[flaminbats]

128. This "hatred" runs both ways....

Bitterness during this stage of the campaign is normal. I still remember how much anger there was between the Tsongas camp and the Clinton camp in 1992, after Tsongas had to suspend his campaign. These feelings were even stronger between the Brown supporters and the Clinton backers during the 1992 convention. In fact, many view that bitterness left over from 1992 as the genesis of support for the Green Party.

I have observed many people like you criticizing the Kucinich and Dean backers for their attacks on the more moderate candidates. But I seldom see moderate or conservative Democrats slamming those who equate a vote for Ralph Nader as a vote for George W. Bush. I seldom read postings that provide positive reasons to liberals and Greens..for picking Kerry over Nader. And it is rare to see someone on DU who will welcome and encourage Greens to post their views at DU. Instead what they usually get is a hard kick in the ass, reasons why Nader voters are to blame for the 2000 election, and why they are only screwballs or rats that hurt the party.

If we truly wish to have peace within this party, then we must reach out and welcome new opinions and voters...not blame them or drive them away with anger generated by the Republicans.

[eridani]

129. Because there is no public sphere anymore

If there were, we would be having these arguments there and actually seeing a connection between them and public policy.

http://www.counterpunch.org/smith05052003.html

'Customer' and 'consumer' were not the only words being used to change the nature of citizenship. David Kemmis, the mayor of Missoula, MT, pointed out that the word 'taxpayer' now "regularly holds the place which in a true democracy would be occupied by 'citizen.' Taxpayers bear a dual relationship to government, neither half of which has anything at all to do with democracy. Taxpayers pay tribute to the government and they receive services from it. So does every subject of a totalitarian regime. What taxpayers do not do, and what people who call themselves taxpayers have long since stopped even imagining themselves doing, is governing."

Then there was growing use of the term "stakeholder" that covertly diminished the citizens' role to that of a minor participant. Ironically, 'stakeholder' literally means a person who holds the money while two other people bet. Whoever wins, the stakeholder gets nothing.

Another phrase that started cropping up was 'civil society,' a patronizing description of people who, in a democracy, are meant to be running the place. The term has come to used in elite circles with roughly the same condescension of a bishop talking about a church altar guild.

[ulysses]

131. that

and the superior attitudes of the politically mutable.

[boobooday]

132. We shall all party down together

We shall party down together when W goes home!

Then we need to channel our anger into repairing the damage.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

:-) Peace.

[MoonRiver]

133. If Dems can seize the White House, and, hopefully, at least the Senate,

I'm ready to let it all go. Poof! IMO, Democrats just need to take this government away from the rightwing forces of absolute evil. And, contrary to popular (DU) opinion, I do not believe Dems are the same as Repugs. In fact, when push comes to shove, I call the two almost polar opposites. Flame me naive. I can take it. I'm a DEMOCRATIC PATRIOT!
:kick: