Biden and Dodd attend debate in Waterloo, Iowa - Kucinich a no show

[Debi]

People attended the forum specifically to see Dennis Kucinich and his campaign was offered a spot to have a supporter gathering at no cost...and he pulls out of an Iowa event at the last minute. Thanks Dennis :eyes:

http://www.wcfcourier.com/articles/2007/10/13/news/metro/b22fb818cebdd3c38625737300145b0d.txt

Biden and Dodd debate at West High

<snip>

With only two candidates present, the stage was sparsely populated. Rep. Dennis Kucinich of Ohio deprived the Cedar Valley of its first personal encounter with the candidate by withdrawing at the last moment , and the leading candidates declined invitations to the Black Hawk County Democrats event.

Dodd and Biden, who have developed a friendship while serving in the Senate, kept most of their criticisms on the Democratic front-runners and President Bush for their handling of the Iraq war.

As he has in recent days, Dodd criticized Hillary Clinton, John Edwards and Barack Obama for not promising to withdraw all U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of their first term in office at a recent Democratic presidential debate. Biden also leveled a shot at the leading three candidates on the same issue.

"The leading candidates said they will keep the troops there (in Iraq) through their first term, but have voted not to fund the troops," he said.

<snip>

Biden attacked the administration for creating more terrorists than it has killed by mistreating prisoners in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. He also said the administration has refused to try to remove hundreds of tons of highly enriched uranium in Russia.

"President Bush has been criminally irresponsible in the way he has handled national security," he said.

<snip>

[MADem]

1. He must have no organization in the state, and figures "Eh, fuck it"

He probably figures the event won't get much play outside the state, either. He knows he's not going to do anything of consequence in the state, so he's blowing it off.

Well, it IS a symbolic campaign he is running, so I suppose one shouldn't expect much from him anyway, but he's not even pretending he's serious when he does that sort of thing. Especially when they laid out the red carpet for him...it might have been an opportunity for him to at least be heard above the fray. Maybe he doesn't want that--who knows?

[ccpup]

3. I think you might have a point

If he's always running as the "Outsider", the one who the Establishment doesn't want in Office, he'll have somewhat of a forum for his views and those eager to hear what he has to say (usually people who are inclined to promote those not accepted as being "top tier" candidates anyway). But if he were to begin gaining traction -- something that could happen with a state-by-state grassroots effort and offices in Primary States --, he'd lose that "Outside" status which I suspect he eagerly identifies with. And then what would he do, what would he say, if he weren't railing against the "Establishment"?

Just my opinion.

[Debi]

5. He could have been like Clinton, Edwards, Gravel, Obama and Richardson

and said "No". Instead he confirmed (On Monday we were told he was coming) and then bailed. :eyes: That's just rude.

[sabbat hunter]

67. what was the reason for no-showing

[Debi]

68. I am not aware that a reason was given. n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

83. Wasn't this the guy who was bellyaching because he wasn't invited to a debate in Iowa and

Senator Harkin's steak fry?

[monmouth]

2. Biden/Dodd, Dodd/Biden....Either way works for me...Cool team. n/t

[Debi]

6. It was an enjoyable evening - and great to actually hear the two of them talk

rather than getting 5 minutes behind "The Big Three"s 15 20 minutes in other debates. We got 90 minutes of their back and forth. And they are not that far apart AND like each other.

[SharonAnn]

72. You were there? That's my hometown! I haven't been back since last H.S. reunion.

What memories of growing up there in the 1950s and 1960s.

Great towns, Waterloo and Cedar Falls.

[slick8790]

11. I like them both too, but honestly, as horrible as it sounds...

The absolute last thing we need on our ticket again is another old white new england liberal. So many people had problems with kerry just because of their perception of him, before he even talked about any issues, and i could see the same problem with dodd.

[ginchinchili]

20. Perhaps we shouldn't choose our candidates by the color of their skin

[slick8790]

21. Perhaps we should look at some of the reasons we lost last time

and not nominate someone who can be painted as an out of touch, elitist, new england liberal again.

[Debi]

28. Yeah b/c we know we can't elect those damn New Englanders to the Presidency

:eyes:

[slick8790]

42. Do you dispute that there was a fair amount of people who didn't even give Kerry a chance

because of his supposed new england liberal elitism? Dodd's a mediocre candidate anyway, this is just one of the reasons why I think he'd be a bad nominee. And funny you should mention kennedy, he was the last democratic president not from the south...

[Debi]

51. I think it's silly to exclude a person as a presidential choice because of

where they live.

Bill Richardson is the Democratic candidate from the furtherst southern state. Is he going to be our next president?

[ginchinchili]

36. So, are there any other skin colors or areas on the map we should use to disqualify?

Here's an idea: let's base our choices on one's individual merits rather than some arbitrary superficial reason. Do you really think those who rejected John Kerry because of where he's from will be any more receptive to an African American, a woman married to Bill Clinton, or a small, outspoken liberal from Cleveland, or perhaps a Democratic Hispanic governor from New Mexico? Please. I personally think that Joe Biden is more personable and has a more compelling life story than any of the other candidates. But don't use such superficial litmus tests on any Democratic candidate. You just have to keep in mind that Republicans will make up anything to attack a Democratic candidate. Don't buy into their small-minded attacks. In 2004 I supported Wes Clark in the primary. He didn't win. Should I avoid supporting Democratic candidates who served in the military?

[slick8790]

43. Yes, I do think some of those people will.

I know some of those people, who, unfortunately, didn't even give kerry a chance. These same people are, in fact, more receptive to the african american and the hispanic governor. It's much easier for the media to paint someone as an outright elitist than imply things based on race. The other two (Clinton, Kucinich) have different problems. I wasn't even really referring to Biden, who I actually like. I was mostly referring to Dodd. Biden has enough to define him otherwise with his work on his Iraq plan and his foreign policy experience, Dodd really doesn't.

[ginchinchili]

46. "these same people"....frankly, I don't think you know what the hell you're talking about

Just look at everyone as an individual and weigh their pros and cons. If Dodd or anyone else can't get elected, it won't be because of the state they're from. Otherwise, you start eliminating real potential leaders for the wrong reason. BTW, did you know our present two term president was born in Connecticut? You might want to check to see where that is on the map. Now if you can make a connection between him and the region he is from you might have something there.

[Debi]

53. Because the Family Mecial Leave Act was just fluff?

Dodd has an impressive resume.

[PatSeg]

29. Dodd is from New England, but Biden isn't

Delaware doesn't really resemble New England and Biden is very different personality-wise than Kerry. Though I supported Kerry in '04, he really didn't connect well with most people, whereas Biden does.

Also, they may be "older", but I don't see either one of them as OLD.

[slick8790]

44. Yeah, I was too vague in my post. I really just meant Dodd.

I actually like Biden.

[PatSeg]

47. Yeah, Dodd isn't too appealing

even though he seems like a great guy.

[gateley]

41. I think part of the slam against Kerry was "rich:". Biden isn't rich by a long

shot, don't know about Dodd but I haven't heard that "accusation" applied to either of them.

[PatSeg]

48. Also his speaking style came across as aloof to some

I liked him, but I have to admit, it took a while. With Biden, it was instantaneous. He wasn't an acquired taste.

[Mass]

57. Opposite here - Tastes come in all types!

Biden is starting to look good, but he is too long-winded and self-centered for my taste. Kerry convinced me immediately.

[PatSeg]

63. This is true

and it also depends on what your first exposure to a candidate is. That first impression goes a long way. Then it is either reinforced or unlearned.

[HereSince1628]

4. Chasing caucus bodies in Iowa so necessary and yet just so

incredibly unlike what most of the rest of us will see.

For me the primary season is rapidly passing from carnival-like extravaganza of attention given to otherwise unknown and insignificant places and people (hey, I know everyone is human and deserves dignity) and moved from the strangely Twilight Zone-ike affect of Iowa into the Outer Limits, where the media and pundits now have complete control over the vertical and horizontal of my existance.

[Debi]

7. Manners matter anywhere

Kucinich (and his supporters) was just complaining that he wasn't invited to attend Iowa events.

He was invited, confirmed his attendance and then blew us off.

He could have said no and then we would not have expected him.

[HereSince1628]

8. Vomitting on another person's leg is considered bad form...

Missing a vote on which you chastise someone else is considered bad form.

Missing a family event can be bad form.

Shit, I mean really, taking a crap or farting can be bad form...

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see a reason given for Kucinich's absence.

Perhaps something happened that is excusable, perhaps not?

I don't know.

I do know that the campaign managers are working the reporters and the pundits hard to spin their version of reality into our consciousness.

Hence my comment regarding the Outer Limits.

We have entered that time when our choice of experience has taken us to a place well beyond our control.

[Debi]

18. What are you talking about? n/t

[MADem]

9. I agree, It was disrespectful to his supporters. If he had a good reason, there's been plenty

of time for someone from his campaign to explain that to his supporters, and beg pardon.

Manners DO matter. Some think they're out of fashion, I guess.

[HereSince1628]

10. Some haven't a clue what happened and will suspend judgement

until the evidence is in.

[MADem]

14. Well, gee, if you know, tell us.

We're a bit past the Pony Express era, these days.

It's not like we're waiting for the carrier pidgeon to arrive.

Evidence? How about a simple, basic, notification to those who expected him? That's rocket science?

They have these things called telephones, and if someone from his staff has no idea how to use one, then that campaign has MAJOR problems beyond his ability to gain traction in other regards.

Rudeness is rudeness. Apparently, his supporters in Iowa don't deserve common courtesy. And that's ok with you...?

[HereSince1628]

54. Your apparently are allowed you to see inside people's minds

That's a real interesting condition.

I'll wait until an explanation is forthcoming.

[MADem]

59. Are you drinking? Your subject line makes no sense.

Tick, tick, tick...how long must we wait?

Surely, he can come up with SOME lame excuse? It's not like he has to write WAR AND PEACE, simply tell his supporters why he didn't show up after making a promise to them.

It ain't rocket science, and you don't need to "see inside people's minds" to require that they explain themselves.

[Debi]

16. When the space to hold an event was offered a return call was promised

by his campaign. No call :shrug:

[bluedog]

17. they say he did it also in Ohio debates.........

..................in Cleveland, Denny has become almost famous for his unimaginative ways of bailing on debates. Sometimes he just doesn't show. Sometimes he calls at the final hour with scheduling conflicts. And sometimes his opponents, fed up with Kucinich hiding from his constituents, take the debate directly to Denny, whether he wants it or not


http://blogs.clevescene.com/cnotes/2007/09/dennis_kucinich_get_some_of_hi.php

[Debi]

19. Odd behavior since he just complained about NOT being invited to events

[youthere]

80. I seem to remember there was quite a bit of Iowa bashing about that...

if memory serves...;-)

[MADem]

23. That's just wrong. It's as though he, or his "people" are treating the whole exercise as a joke.

You can't crap on folks like that. It's hurtful to them, and to the party's political process in general. You're quite right to be annoyed.

[slipslidingaway]

25. Where can one verify this information? I do not remember

seeing this event on his calendar and it was not listed in the Iowa forum on his website, that does not mean that the article is incorrect, but some names would be nice.

Who spoke to whom at his campaign office?


Not much on the google, although I did find this posted on the Biden site FWIW. Followed the link and found the Black Hawk Dems site, but no information there as well??? TIA.

http://blackhawkdemocrats.com/


http://blog.joebiden.com/?p=1199

"October 12th, 2007 by Erin Medlicott

Oct. 12: Tonight Iowa’s Black Hawk County Democrats hold a Presidential Forum in Waterloo, featuring Democratic presidential candidate U.S. Sen. Joe Biden and Sen. Chris Dodd. As of press time. Sen. Hillary Clinton and Rep. Dennis Kucinich had not yet confirmed their participation.


Each candidate will be given time to answer prepared questions and meet individually with attendees. The event will be moderated by Iowa television newsman and Wartburg College professor emeritus, Grant Price. The event will raise money for the Black Hawk County Democrats’ precinct caucus fund.

This event is open to the public. Reservations are required and the ticket price is $5 each: call the Black Hawk Democrats"

[Debi]

27. Only the word of the folks that organized the event and said Kucinich had confirmed

Not that you have to believe them. As for who offered the space? That was me and NO the campaign never called me back.

[slipslidingaway]

71. Appreciate the reply and just wondering if anyone knows the

name of the person in his campaign who said Dennis would definitely be at the event? Thank you for offering the space, do you plan on following up with the person you spoke with at his campaign office or not?

[Debi]

73. You actually want me to call the campaign back and ask them why they didn't call me back?

I talked with them twice offering the space. They're not following up was sufficient enough answer for me.
:hi: I don't think anyone here can complain that I didn't offer to help. It's not my fault if the Congressman or his campaign doesn't want it.

[slipslidingaway]

74. I would be willing to call, especially if someone from the

campaign confirmed that he would be there, but without the proper information it would most likely not be very productive. Hope you understand why I asked the question, if someone is not doing their job or making promises that can not be met the campaign needs to know. Thanks again.

:hi:

[Debi]

75. I don't quite understand why you asked, it almost seems like you don't believe me

but if you PM me your email address I'll email you the information I emailed the campaign contact here in Iowa.

[slipslidingaway]

76. It's hard to call a campaign office and say that someone, having

something to do with the campaign confirmed to the Black Hawk Dems ??? that Dennis would attend an event on Friday night and then never showed up and never cancelled. That is the information that I would be more interested in having so that I could follow up.

As for your calls, I wish they had called you back and took you up on your generous offer :(

Not sure if you have the information re the confirmation to attend, but if you have any ideas on which office to call tomorrow then I'll make the call.

Does that make sense?

Thanks for the replies.

[Debi]

77. Please PM me your email address

I'm not going to post my contact information on the general board of DU. I'll forward you the email I sent the Iowa representative as well as the information I received from the Black Hawk County Democrats.

[slipslidingaway]

79. Sent you a PM...thanks n/t

[PatSeg]

30. Especially in Iowa

I'm not sure (Debi can clarify it), but I don't think Iowans take too kindly to people blowing them off without an explanation and an apology. These people take politics very seriously and they really listen.

[Debi]

34. I can only speak for myself

:grr: sums it up!

[PatSeg]

40. I kinda figured as much

I also get the feeling that Iowans can spot a phony a mile away as well. They've seen their fair share up close and personal!

[Debi]

52. The Kucinich is just bizarre this time around.

He really worked in Iowa in 2004 - and his staff/volunteers did as well. Now it just seems to be made up of chaos and shoulder shrugging out here. It know it's frustrating to people who do want to see him and talk w/him here in Waterloo.

[MADem]

37. It's very personal, those caucuses. Not like other states where it's all about big venues and tv

spots.

I suppose he figured he had insufficient organization in Iowa...but that kind of cavalier attitude can transcend a single state and hurt his reputation as the pure, high minded, 'little people count' lefty. Not that he's gonna win, or even show very well, but it does make one question both his sincerity and his integrity.

It could be the fault of a shitty aide, with pisspoor organizational skills. But even if that's the case, he's gotta step up and take responsibility, because he IS the principal in this evolution.

Ya can't blame the help when the gaffe is this big.

[PatSeg]

39. I wish more states had caucuses like Iowa

It is more personal and real.

[MADem]

50. We'd need election cycles lasting five years, in that case.

It's an AWFUL lot of work for the candidates--those who choose to participate, anyway. You've got to get out, talk to folks, develop a base, motivate that base, get that base into the caucuses to tout for you, and your success depends on how good your base is at swinging the argument.

The media covers Iowa because it's unique in that sense. That's why the candidates bother--because the media attention that is historically garnered in Iowa and New Hampshire far exceeds the value of those states in terms of electoral votes. It appeals to that "The Little Guy Counts" sense that Americans have.

If all states did that caucus thing, we'd be on the campaign trail forever, and the media would stick to coverage in the Mega-States, like California and NY, and skip Iowa entirely, because they don't have the critical mass that the others do. And hell, reporters would rather "do" California than Iowa, all things being equal....

It's a nice concept to get a sense of how the candidates do in small, personal venues, though. That's why it's persisted for so long. I just don't think it would translate well as a default methodology.

[PatSeg]

64. You are right

The candidates are already spread pretty thin as it is, but I'm glad that the Iowa Caucuses are a tradition that has survived. The media coverage gives the rest of us an opportunity to see the choices in a more informal setting, a setting that can make or break some. What sells in a 30 second commercial, often does not cut it when a candidate actually has to face voters directly and answer questions spontaneously.

[Think82]

24. Biden's plan gets a Shiite Iraqi leader's support from NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Iraq.html

[cali]

12. Too bad.

This just supports the theory that's out there that he's only running a vanity campaign- unless he had a good reason for cancelling.

[Debi]

15. I'd like to hear it. n/t

[bluedog]

13. did Dennis congratulate Al Gore yet? n/t

[ginchinchili]

22. Point is, Biden and Dodd are two classy guys with whom integrity still matters

How much longer can we remain a great nation when our leaders are determined by money and soundbites? I'm more interested in qualifications and ideas.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. Mr. Kucinich Marches To The Beat Of His Own Drummer

eom

[PatSeg]

31. That's for sure

Evidently his "drummer" is running his campaign.

[Froward69]

32. Is There any Video of the event?

Idd like to see...

[Debi]

33. Don't know....

I'll ask around.

[PatSeg]

35. That would really be cool!

[Debi]

56. See post #55 n/t

[Froward69]

38. T/Y

:pals:

[Debi]

55. Seek and ye shall find!

Here's a link to the website Essential Estrogen. Several videos of the Forum! :hi:

http://www.essentialestrogen.com/

[dugggy]

45. Biden = most knowlegeable on foreign policy matters

of all presidential contemders, democratic AND republican.
I like his idea of 3 autonomous provinces in one country
of Iraq. It is the only solution which has a chance to work.

[PatSeg]

49. He's been working on it for a long time

and has made eight trips to Iraq, which weren't photo-ops. He admits that it might not work, but so far no one else has come up with an alternative.

[Mass]

58. Good from Biden and Dodd. Bad move from Kucinich if he did not have an excuse.

I'll go for Biden or Dodd anyday now. Too bad some of their supporters cannot simply push their positive without denigrating somebody else.

[mrigirl]

60. We Biden supporters do not belittle or attack anyone's character who is running!

Haven't you noticed that most of us Biden supporters are nice? WE get attacked more often then not for supporting the underdog in this race. People don't get why we support Biden sometimes.

[Debi]

61. Do you think my post was an attack on Kucinich?

:shrug:

I wanted to see Kucinich and am bummed that he blew us off like that - I would have reacted the same had Biden/Dodd behaved in the same manner.

[Mass]

62. Sorry. No, I did not want to be more specific, but I think the attack on Dodd as

being a bad candidate because from NE got on my nerves. Actually, you post was fairly good.

[PatSeg]

66. Actually most of us really like Chris Dodd

I think the reference was to a perception of Dodd by some Midwest voters, not a reflection of our personal opinions. The whole Northeast elite image is a rightwing fabrication anyway. Where a candidate is from shouldn't be an important consideration in making a decision about which candidate is most qualified to be president.

[Debi]

69. Thanks for the clarification

I don't know that the poster who posted negative things about Dodd is actually a Biden supporter - at least I haven't seen them on other Biden supporter threads...yet :shrug:

[jillan]

70. You won't hear any criticism of Dodd from this Bidenite.

I would love to see Dodd move up. If Biden wasn't running, I would probably be supporting Dodd.

[PatSeg]

65. Sadly, he could have saved face on this

with a simple statement explaining why he could not attend. I really think the fault may be with his campaign organizers who may not be too "organized".

[youthere]

82. I haven't seen any of that from the Biden/Dodd people...

or the Richardson supporters either.I think the majority of those supporters have been exemplary here. In fact, I wish some of the Clinton/Obama folks would learn a thing or two from them.

[murbley40]

78. Biden and Dodd ,...

the class of the field.:patriot:

[kad7777]

81. I agree

Class of the field and smarter than every other candidate running. Dem or Rup.