"Hillary Can't Win"

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Everyday the same posters come here and write, ad infinitum and ad nauseum, that Hillary Clinton can not win a general election. When it is pointed out that when you look at all the state and national polls , and not a few cherry picked ones, she is doing as well or better than John Edwards and Barack Obama.

The "Hillary Can't Win" crowd then usually contend that polls this far out have limited predictive value... Fine, limited isn't a synonym for none, but if they have limited value for Hillary Clinton, they have limited value for their candidate as well...

We are also told that only Hillary Clinton is susceptible to right wing attacks as if the right wing won't attack John Edwards or Barack Obama... Anybody who has spent one minute listening to right wing talk radio or perusing right wing web sites knows this isn't true...

Hillary Clinton, is a smart, able, tenacious campaigner backed by the most competent political machine in the Democratic party. She will beat any of her Rethuglican opponents like a drum...

[Clark2008]

1. Is it OK to think that none of the Dem candidates can win the GE?

Because, I happen to remember the media treatment of Gore and Kerry, I happen to live in a purple state and know what the swing-vote Bubba's think (note I said SWING VOTE, not conservative Bubbas who wouldn't piss on a Dem candidate if (s)he was on fire) and because of the voting machines.

I don't have high hopes.

[Earth_First]

4. Gordon Ramsey for President!

Maybe we need a foul-mouthed chef in the WH?

[Tellurian]

11. Are you suggesting..

DU should be renamed, Hell's Kitchen?

I like Ramsey too, in the kitchen.

[aquart]

37. Vote anyway.

[mainegreen]

2. It's because they all have done research an analysis showing she can't win.

Oh, wait, no they haven't.
So it must be because the other candidates have done studies showing she can't win and have let us see these studies.
Oh, wait, no they haven't.

Shit. I guess then for all we know there is a chance she might win.



(read with snark)

[Burma Jones]

3. There are a lot of Lobbyists, with a lot of money and expertise

That figure Hillary will win. While it may upset a lot of folks here, Corporate America is backing Hillary, and they do generally get their picks right.

The people posting these dire predictions are engaging in negative campaigning 'cause it's desperation time. Me, I'll vote for the D in the General Election and I'll be voting for Richardson in Maryland's meaningless primary.

[Lasher]

5. It's close but here's one survey that says Edwards would do best in the general:

The most recent Rasmussen Reports data show that all of the most likely Democratic nominees lead their strongest prospective opponents. At this point John Edwards appears to be strongest in individual match-ups leading Giuliani by 9%, Thompson by 10%, and Romney by 11%.

Hillary Clinton holds almost as big a lead, but falls just short of Edwards' margin. She leads Giuliani by 5%, Thompson by 8%, and Romney by 9%.

Barack Obama holds a more narrow 5% lead over Giuliani, a 6% lead over Thompson, and a 3% lead over Romney.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/behind_the_horse_race_numbers_edwards_strongest_democrat_in_general_election_match_ups

[bluetrain]

14. Edwards missed his window. He should have run against Bush the first go

round. Gore turned a lot of people like me off by running with Lieberman and lost our votes because of it. Not to say that race anything resembling fairly counted or a legal election, but I think he missed his moment. He comes off like The Past to people who see these fascinating new options of a female president or a partially black president -- details which should have no determination over a vote, but which do. He's a rich, white man regardless of his politics and people are ready for change.

[Gman]

21. So you helped elect Bush when you voted for Nader?

And you're saying you'll do the same thing again?

Why are you here at DU?

[bluetrain]

32. I did vote for Nader. There's no way in hell I would have voted for any ticket with

Lieberman on it. Nor will I ever. Lieberman having fully taken his cloak off at this point, maybe some of you can see what drove so many of us away from Gore that year. Regardless, we all know that Gore won. And as an NYS resident, no, I don't feel any responsibility for his "loss."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. "He's a rich, white man regardless of his politics "

So was John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, and Franklin Roosevelt...

[bluetrain]

26. Zeitgeist

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. Cryptic

DSB

[bluetrain]

33. Not really. There's a time and a place for everything. There's a communal quest. Whatever.

[bluetrain]

6. She's a fascist hack and she's not getting my vote. I'd vote for the dead before

I'd vote for her.

[liberal renegade]

9. What makes you think she's a fascist hack?

Esplain yourself! I really need to know.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. It's Really Irrelevant To This Discussion, Bro

I confined myself to her electoral prospects, nothing more, nothing less...

[bluetrain]

19. The opinions of the constituency regarding the candidates are irrelevant? In Karl Rove's America, I

guess so...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. It's A Post About Her Electoral Prospects Not Her Positions

It would be as if we were in a Engineering class and I asked the professor if we were going to dissect a frog...

If you don't like her positions start a new thread... I wouldn't go to a Kanye West concert and start hollering "Free Bird"...

[bluetrain]

24. Actually, it's not like that at all. I'm the reason "HIllary Can't Win". We don't

trust her and, in accordance, we won't vote for her. And I've explained to you why. She doesn't represent us and shows no inclination of doing so in the future.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. She Won't Win Because You And Your Friends Won't Vote For Her

mmmmkay...

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Are You Always Patronizing Or Did Someone Take A Dump In Your Oatmeal This Morning?

You must be beyond ignorant not to expect a comeback like that...

Game

Set

Match

[bluetrain]

34. LOL. Come on, really, what do you not get about what I'm saying? Her voting record, let's just start

there. Where do you see a progressive in those votes? Where do you see a peacemaker? And for that matter a peacekeeper? And going back to my posts on projection, tell me you don't fall into any of those slots regarding your feelings toward her...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. Because, Respectfully, That's Not The Topic Of This Discussion

The topic of this discussion is her electoral prospects... You are suggesting she will lose because there will be mass defections from folks that are to the left of the Democrats... I don't see any evidence of that...In fact I don't see any evidence of that in American history...

I will support any Democrat that can beat the Republicans...Right now, she appears to have a good a chance as any of her Democratic opponents , if not a better one, and we are now back at square one; the reason I started this thread...

[bluetrain]

41. See whatever the hell you want to see, vote for whomever you want to vote for, I, personally, along

with many other people on the left side of the aisle, don't trust her as far as we could throw her and that ain't far and she will split the dem vote just as Gore did by stupidly agreeing to have Lieberman on his ticket. If there actually is a legit election this time around, she will not be the winner for the sole reason that she does not stand for the people. Knowing how our "elections" go, it's a useless argument. You know what I'd love? To see Hilary Clinton stand up for some fucking legislation against election fraud. That would put me in her corner.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Nad(i)r Got 2.75% Of The Vote In 00

Gore got 90% or so of the Democratic vote in 00...Bush* got more of the Democratic vote in 00 than Nad(i)r did...

If Hillary loses it will be because the Rethuglicans did a better job of mobilizing their base and persuading Indys than the Dems...

Look at all the great third party movements of the last fifty years... They have either been racist (Wallace in 68), goo goo good government (Anderson in 80) or pseudo-populist (Perot in 92 and 96)...
There is not a scintilla of evidence to suggest that that the left can even mount such serious losing campaigns...

It is what it is...

[bluetrain]

49. .

Not getting your angle.

Someone ACCUSED me of being a god forbid Nader vote and I proudly revealed that I had never voted for Lieberman in my life.

I mean, that's great if you want your children to continue eating lead paint and your brothers and sisters to continue dying on the sidewalks and you want a real hardcore draft and a feudal state, that's awesome that you, via your projections, believe HC will be the next LORD and make sure that all of that happens. It's a fucking genie lamp for you! Go for it. I mean, it'd take an actual LEADER not beholden to corporate interests to get us decent universal healthcare, clean up the air and water, restructure the public education system so kids actually learn something more than how to memorize the answers for a multiple choice test, negotiate not just a gentle withdrawal from Iraq but a PR plan to give us some kind of face worth photographing without a catty byline in the world press., take genuine care of our very mangled soldiers, create jobs that people can live on, etc. You think HC is the person for that! I am only asking you review her voting record! No more projections, no ore who you want her to be, no more who she says she is, no more who her husband was and did, but just her. What has she done? How has she voted?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. It's Basic

There will be two people on the ballot in 2008 who will have a realistic chance of becoming president, a Democrat and a Republican. This has how it has been since Lincoln beat Douglas...The Democrat will always be closer to me , ideologically, than the Republican, always... By voting for a third party candidate I am depriving the candidate closest to me with the only realistic chance of winning (the Democrat) a vote and rewarding the candidate furthest away from me (the Rethuglican), because the Democrat has one less vote...

I can not empower Rethuglicans, directly or idirectly...It's goes against my nature...

[Tesha]

50. It's okay; some days they really really want our vote and other days...

> Are you being intentionally obtuse or is it a natural
> failing (to be expected of HC supporters)?

It's okay; some days they really really want our vote and
other days, sometimes even the same days, they want us to
piss off as dirty liberals.

Come Election Day 2008, it'll all get sorted out.

Tesha

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

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[William769]

48. I bet you have never been accused of being vain.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[icnorth]

22. Rupert Murdoch Loves Hillary Clinton

"(CBS) To call them a political odd couple would be a rash understatement.

Conservative media mogul Rupert Murdoch will host a fundraiser for liberal New York Sen. Hillary Clinton, the Financial Times reports.

The mating ritual of the unlikely allies has been under way for months. Clinton set political tongues to wagging last month by attending a Washington party celebrating the 10th anniversary of Fox News, the cable news channel owned by Murdoch."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/09/politics/main1600694.shtml

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Newscorp Also Contributed To Al Gore's Campaign

eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. That's Fine...I Respect Your Opinion

But it has as much to do with the topic as the fact that both the Patrriots and Colts are 4-0 this far...

[bluetrain]

18. I voted for her for Senator. AND SHE DID NOTHING BUT KOWTOW to we know who.

Her votes stand for themselves. The HC thing is really weird to me. I realize she's being propped up because of her obvious connections, but I feel like very few of the people who are either for or against her are making their decisions based on anything even remotely having to do with her actual politics as shown by her voting record. She seems to exist in a fog of projection. Those in the pro corner are either nostalgic for the prosperity of the BILL Clinton era, excited by the idea of a female president, are sheep who see that she's supposedly polling the best so want to bet on the winner or are hanging on to the health care plan she proposed so long ago and would no longer even vote for herself. Those in the anti corner seem for the most part to hate her in relation to her husband whom they hate because someone else told them to for other inane reasons. I see so few people responding to her for her actual self. Tell me what she's done since she's been a Senator that I should be proud of, support, endorse? Before that? Outside of that? She's in pocket and if we actually have a clean election (ha!) this go round there's no way she's going to get the upper vote of all the misogynists (many of whom are women) in this country. I don't give a flying fuck what she's said. Show me what she's actually done that supports anything resembling progressive ideals. And, then, let's compare that to everything else she's done which supports regressive ideology.

I'd vote for Elizabeth Edwards in a heartbeat. With Wes Clark as her VP.

[aquart]

38. So you're not a Democrat. Got it.

You have zero respect for the majority vote of Democratic Party members. It's your way or the highway.

Buh bye.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ixion]

7. And everyday I see the same group of people louding proclaiming that she can

I guess that we'll have to wait A YEAR and see.

Personally, I don't think she has a chance. I think she's the candidate the GOP want to run against.

Oh, and I don't much care for here politics. So my opinion has nothing to do with the whole "cleavage and cackle" hogwash that has been spewed by the MSM.

[wyldwolf]

8. to them, the anecdotal evidence they gather from their limited social circle means more than...

..scientifically administered polls.

Ya know, I don't know anyone who likes onions on their burgers...

[aquart]

40. I do. Batter-dipped with cole slaw. Yummy.

But not a soul I know agrees with that.

[wyldwolf]

54. Only because the M$M told you to like them.

[MADem]

12. It's silly to gripe about who can and cannot win. It's not very productive, either. NT

[Rydz777]

13. I think she can win, and absent the unexpected, will win. What

worries me is what comes after inauguration day. If this awful war is still on-going (and who's stopping it?) that will be dumped in her lap. The economy is shaky and could fall into recession, and there are mountains of other problems that Bush is leaving behind. We will need aggressive and radical changes and I hope the new admnistration will be both unified and visionary.

Meantime, I'm still holding out for Al Gore - who I think would have the best chance of unifying the country around needed changes.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Ha

I have actually read that the GOP wouldn't mind losing because things are so messed up , that nobody can fix them in one term, and that person will be blamed...

But adversity can make someone into a hero or a chump; it depends how that person reacts...

[journalist3072]

17. Outstanding post, and so on point. eom

[Diclotican]

25. Hm?

So long it is NOT a member of the Bush familily, I am happy who win the white house in 2008... USA can not live tru 4 more year with a Presidency witht the name of "Bush".. And the rest of the world wil stop holding its breath, as they are doing it now...

But, it had been interested to see how a Female President was doing it in the White house.. My wield guess is that Hillary Clinton vil doing it great in the White House.. She maybee be a popular president - not in the right wing then, but for the most part, a popular president... And maybee we even get Bill Clinton as "first mister" too;)..

Maybee a new president wil make it to get more really coalisation troops to Irak to, not this "alliance" of the treathend and cohorsed....

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native langugage

[tkmorris]

36. I see your point but I don't care..........

To me, the issue is not whether she CAN win but rather whether she SHOULD win.

Several Democrats could win in 2008. The Repubs are reeling, and rightfully so. Biden could win. Dodd could win. Richardson could win. That's not the point, not for me.

The point is rather whether Clinton is a good candidate, who will advance Democratic ideals. And for me, the answer to that is a resounding no. She is owned by big business, and while she may be an improvement over Bush that really isn't saying much is it? To be honest if the campaign were hypothetically between Clinton and Olympia Snowe I'd have a hard time choosing, even though one is presumably a Dem and the other is a Repub. They are two faces of the same coin.

I don't belong to a team. I have voted straight Democratic tickets for as long as I can remember, but that isn't because I think that anyone who carries a 'D' after their name is automatically superior. It's rather that it has always been the case, at least until now. Hillary Clinton is no friend of Progressives, this much I know. If she is nominated I will likely vote for her, but I will not be happy with it. It will be like wanting a steak when the only two items on the menu are Spaghetti-o's and fried Spam.

Edited because the voices in my head told me to.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. I'm Trying To Confine The Debate To Her Electoral Prospects

And I do think she is a potentially stronger candidate than Richardson or Biden who are prone to gaffs that can cripple a campaign...

[bluetrain]

42. She certainly has a larger budget thanks to friends like Murdoch and such/ eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. "By Any Means Necessary"

DSB

[bluetrain]

55. If you really think cuddling up to Murdoch

is within the moral bounds of a PROGGRESSIVE candidate.......I don't want you on my team. Period. Seriously. End of Story. And I worked in the corporate world for a while and know what it takes to sell a product with no value. Not much. Other than a lot of charm and a promise of residuals.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. FDR Cuddled Up To Stalin

In war it is prudent to co-opt your enemies...It reduces the battlefield...

Like brother Malcom said " by any means necessary."

[tkmorris]

52. I know you are trying to confine the debate

That's my point really. When deciding who to vote for in a primary you should NOT confine the debate to strict, simple matters. Given your parameters, yes, she can win. But so what? Does that mean we should vote for her?

If you are advocating for Hillary, than say so. That's cool, but it reveals your argument to be too restrictive to be of use. If you are not then of what value is your point except philosophical?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. My Point Was A Small One...

I am constantly bombarded with the meme that "Hillary Can't Win"...I was merely trying to disabuse people of that notion...

As to who I am advocating for, I will advocate for the Democrat who has the best chance of beating the shit out of the Rethuglicans; especially if its Rudy G(h)ouliani...

[Apollo11]

43. Strongly agree

:applause:

GORE-OBAMA 2008 :patriot:

:kick:

[mmonk]

44. What's her support among independents?

What about moderate republicans who they target?

[Dawgs]

58. I'm sorry, but I don't see anything in your post that proves those people, like me, wrong.

First of all, national general election polls before the primaries are very inaccurate. That's a fact that many Hillary supporters conveniently ignore.

Second, your point about Hillary's susceptibility to right wing attacks is not the argument. It's the hatred and dislike by the right that will unite the Republicans, not their attacks on the Democratic candidate. Many Republicans have admitted that they don't dislike Obama or Edwards, just their policies. On the other hand, they think Hillary is a "murderer", or "criminal", or "evil". And because of their hatred for Hillary, they will work twice as hard to defeat her.

"Anybody who has spent one minute listening to right wing talk radio or perusing right wing web sites knows this isn't true..."

I disagree 100% with the above statement. Yes, occasionally you do hear comments about Obama and Edwards. That is true. But, Hillary gets mentioned 10 times as much as all of the other candidates combined. Outside of proof, there is no way convince me I am wrong. I listen to more right-wing radio than I want, and all I hear is Hillary, Hillary, Hillary.

[William769]

60. First of all prove this wrong.

"national general election polls before the primaries are very inaccurate".

After you have done that, then we will talk about the other inaccuracies in your post.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. I Don't Think He Will Answer You...

eom

[William769]

63. I know he won't.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. I Can't Believe He Believes Pugs Will Only Go After Edwards And Obama On Their Policies

Like it will be some high school or college debate...

[William769]

66. Now lets be fair.

with some, it only middle school debate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. I Always Used To Post In GD

I then started looking at the threads here and all the Hillary bashing made me more sympathetic to her candidacy...Prior to the primary season I had donated to Obama and Edwards ....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. Wow-Disingenuous Much

"Many Republicans have admitted that they don't dislike Obama or Edwards, just their policies."

Then why does Ann Coulter call John Edwards a "fag" and Oxyrush play "I Am Woman" and "I Feel Pretty" when discussing John Edwards...It seems that's a bit more than an attack on his positions...And why do right wingers maliciously refer to Barack Obama as Barack "Hussein" Obama or Osama Obama and falsely contend he's a Muslim and attended a madrassa, charges that will sink any national candidate...

During the 1960 election my folks get letters in the mail saying Joe Kennedy was a Nazi sympathizer... They will destroy any of their targets...

You are entitled to your opinion that Hillary Clinton can't win but you are not entitled to present your opinion as fact..

[L0oniX]

64. She is going to abuse the constitution just like Bush

<snip>Illinois Senator Barack Obama has finally signed the American Freedom Pledge, joining his fellow Democratic presidential candidates in encouraging the restoration of basic Constitutional principles after the battering they have taken during the Bush-Cheney era.

All the Democrats, that is, except New York Senator Hillary Clinton.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?bid=45&pid=239574