To The Clinton Triumphalists

[DemocratSinceBirth]

A bit more humility might win folks to your cause...

I realize the animus toward Ms. Clinton by some here motivates you to do it but it's still counterproductive...

[Taverner]

1. Like I said earlier, ANYTHING can happen at this point

I think people on all sides are failing to think critically here.

Until the primary, we simply don't know who will be the nominee.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. She Is In An Enviable Position

eom

[Joe the Revelator]

3. History has shown that a lot of people in enviable postions in October...

are sitting at home by March.

[cobalt1999]

4. The public is fickle

Anyone can go from favorite to pariah in a few weeks time. This far out, it's still an open field.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. She's Doing Great Now...

We have a saying in sales...It's a long way from the lip to the cup...

She does have a lot of advantages-endorsements, money, organization, brand name, "mad political skills"...

My point was that some people here treat it more like a sport than a campaign...

[Ken Burch]

44. Just ask President Muskie

n/t.

[BootinUp]

6. Triumphalists, lol. good one

You might have a point. On the other hand, I could argue that none we are arguing with will ever be won over anyways. Heres an example from a DU thread today: Hillary who stands up for our party platform every fucking day is a "an evil triangulator". But Ron Paul who triangulates from the gates of hell to the steps of heaven is just an honest guy who would be a better choice for President. Thats some amazing mental gymnastics there.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. I'm Not Voting For Ron Paul...

eom

[BootinUp]

9. Heck, I knew that already

You thought I was being rude or something?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. Nah

I knew you weren't...

Here's the problem... There are quite a few DUers who don't like Hillary Clinton...They are quite vocal and in some cases, just mean... The DUers who like Clinton are using the polls that show her ahead as a cudgel to hit those who don't like Hillary over the head with... This just hardens their positions...

[BootinUp]

13. I follow you.

a little more tact would be a better approach.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. I Admire Her Discipline, Toughness, And Focus

Over a lifetime... Those are admirable and imho necessary qualities for anyone who wants to be an achiever...

[Lerkfish]

12. what is the party platform?

and where is it in regards to HIllary's platform?

are there similarities, are there differences?

here is the Democratic National Committee platform:

http://www.democrats.org/a/2005/09/the_2004_democr.php

an excerpt:

Real Security

We will protect Americans at home and lead the world by telling the truth to our troops, our citizens and our allies. We believe in a strong national defense that is both tough and smart, recognizing that homeland security begins with hometown security.

Democrats have a plan that is comprehensive-- from repairing our military, to winning the war on terror, to protecting our homeland security, to ensuring success in Iraq and freeing America of its dependence on foreign oil--and it will finally prepare America for the security needs of the 21st Century. And we honor the sacrifices our troops, their families and veterans by making sure we take care of them when they come home.

Democrats are unwavering in our commitment to keep our nation safe. For Democrats, homeland security begins with hometown security. That's why we led the fight to create the Department of Homeland Security and continue to fight to ensure that our ports, nuclear and chemical plants, and other sensitive facilities are secured against attack and support increased funding for our first responders and programs like the COPS program so we keep our communities safe. We want to close the remaining gaps in our security by enacting the 9/11 Commission recommendations.

and here is Hillary's platform (sorry, it looks like you have to click a lot of individual links to get the whole thing):
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

one excerpt:

As First Lady and U.S. senator, Hillary visited more than 80 countries and met countless world leaders as America's representative. In the Senate, Hillary has continued to promote America's interests through her work on international affairs.
Senator Clinton takes very seriously the threats we face from terrorism. She believes President Bush's singular focus on Iraq has distracted him from waging the war on terror effectively and emboldened our enemies. As president, she will be tough and smart in combating terrorism.
Hillary has steadfastly fought for Israel's right to exist peacefully and to defend its people against terrorism. She has condemned Hamas's rise to power. She has spoken out against the problem of anti-Semitism in Palestinian textbooks and condemned Iran's conference on the Holocaust. She also successfully helped Magen David Adom join the International Red Cross and Red Crescent movement.
She has continued to advance peace in Northern Ireland by maintaining close ties with Irish leaders and promoting business partnerships between Northern Ireland and the United States.
Hillary has been a forceful and consistent advocate for a more robust response to the violence in Darfur since May 2004. She has raised the issue with the Bush administration and pushed for more resources for peacekeeping efforts.

[mmonk]

42. The whole wording "war on terror" should be dropped in the DNC

platform. It's become a cover for agressive expansive policy backed by conflict. They could change it to "fight terrorism". I will always distrust that wording and question politicians who use it.

[liberal N proud]

7. The whole Clinton leading thing is being driven by the Media

Who owns the media?
Remember that, they are making her the top candidate and we are all suckers for playing along.

We all need to support our candidate while realizing it is still early in this race and anyone could be the nominee. Who ever that is, we need to support them 100%

I know I intend to.

[illinoisprogressive]

10. the inevitability thing is a dangerous game

it would work with republicans but, democrats are very independent and don't like being told they have no choices and they have to do or accept something. it makes them cranky and they will go out of their way to prove the opposite.
Because the Clintons and supporters are very arrogant many democrats are adverse to them
And democrats like nothing better than to knock someone off their high horse and destroy frontrunners.

[Carrieyazel]

40. Very true. Only one Dem "non-incumbent" frontrunner has secured the nomination since Kennedy.

Mondale in 1984. And he nearly lost it to Gary Hart. And that wasn't one of our best elections. Hillary is far from inevitable.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

15. Agreed. The provocation is intense, but they should recognize that

Hillary's front-runner status requires that Hillary supporters turn the other cheek.

Size matters. The same behavior that is "scrappy" in a David is bullying in a Goliath.

If Hillary has already won, as some say, then the entire message should be one of cautious reconciliation.

[SaveElmer]

16. You admit the provocation...

Yet admonish those on the receiving end...

Perhaps your criticism should be directed at the instigators...

[robcon]

17. The vast majority of HRC triumphalists are strawman posts.

The anti-Clinton DUers rail against Clinton supporters for things that were never said (for the most part.) Clinton supporters, like me, celebrate when the polls support their candidate, or when she gets additional endorsements from people or organizations, but I have never seen a post from a Clinton supporter that says what the anti-Clinton people say they do, such as:

"let's cancel the primaries and anoint her"
"supporters think the nom is a lock"
"her opponents should just quit"
"the primaries are just a series of foregone conclusions"

etc., etc.

All these statements are strawmen, IMO.

[ShortnFiery]

18. "celebrate when the polls support their candidate" No, they LORD it over the rest of us - a decree

that HRC will be Queen.

I, for one, do not want the former Bill Clinton DLC crones in position of power.

If you will admit that the DLC has shoved our Democratic Party to the right, you ain't seen nothing yet. Wait and see how far RIGHT the boys and girls running the Country from the DLC will take the Democratic Party? :scared:

The DLC Clintonian Machine will RULE the Country for 8 years straight? Yes, but not in a good way. :(

[robcon]

19. Gotta link for you claim?

You wrote: "No, they LORD it over the rest of us - a decree that HRC will be Queen."

That's a classic strawman argument, ShortnFiery - and it's not the first strawman you've posted on DU. Here's another strawman from you...

"I guess Dear Leader will call a Press Conference - and with a "signing statement"
make HRC our Democratic Nominee.

After all, no need to waste OUR DLC RULERS' time allowing us "little people" to actually vote when our glorious corporate polls DICTATE that she already has been anointed."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3014940#3015190

You can't find these "anointed" and "Queen" posts from Hillary supporters because they don't exist. That doesn't seem to stop you from posting about these strawmen, though.

[LeftCoast]

20. Show an example

Otherwise this is simply another strawman.

[truebrit71]

21. Of what? HRC-istas' claiming inevitable victory? You must be joking...

..they're all OVER the place...

[LeftCoast]

22. Then it should be easy for you to post a link

No?

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftCoast]

24. I would simply like an example

which nobody has been able to provide. Yet everyone claims they're 'all over'.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftCoast]

26. Insulting me is not a very good debate strategy

Obnoxious, but not a good debate strategy.

[truebrit71]

27. Neither is being deliberately obtuse but it seems to work for some...

...

[LeftCoast]

28. Still waiting for a link

:hi:

[truebrit71]

29. Still waiting for you to go to the forums and open your eyes...

...very simple really...

[LeftCoast]

30. So easy you can't provide a single little link

C'mon. They're 'everywhere'. How hard can it be?

[truebrit71]

31. You are saying that you haven't seen ONE thread anywhere talking about the inevitablility of HRC

..getting the nom?

I just want to make sure before I show you...

You SURE you want to stick to that story...that you haven't seen ANY?

[LeftCoast]

32. I would like you to show me an example of the OP's Clinton Triumphalism

That's all.

[truebrit71]

33. Check ANY thread by poster wyldwolf.

Anyone of them...

[LeftCoast]

34. Here's the very first link that my search found

Huff Po: Clinton Has Shattered "The Prism of The Right."

Could you point out the Triumphalism? I don't see it.

[truebrit71]

35. Here you go...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3577025

Or this one from SaveElmer...another HRC Triumphalist..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3577608

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3573937
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3572731

There are plenty more...but you already knew that, didn't you?

[LeftCoast]

36. Posting independent polling numbers showing your candidate doing well is triumphalism?

I think our perceptions of things may be a little different.

[truebrit71]

37. Nice spin...

...Whatever...

[robcon]

38. You listed 4 links, truebrit...

and not one of them has even a single word of triumphalism (or even a simple comment by the poster) on it.

The OP in each case is a simple cut and paste from publications.

You've proved my point, truebrit. Clinton supporters celebrate positive polls or endorsements, but there is not a whiff of triumphalism on DU, except as a strawman by anti-Clinton posters.

No Clinton supporter is saying the nom is a lock, no Clinton supporter says we should cancel the primaries, no Clinton supporter says she should be crowned or anointed. All those posts are by anti-Clinton posters. QED.

[truebrit71]

43. Yawn.

Dude, this thread is SOOOOO yesterday...the triumphalists have started a brand new day...now run along and pretend not to see those new posts either!!!

[robcon]

47. Which ones?????

You still haven't linked to one triumphalist post, except to those by the anti-Clinton crowd!

[wyldwolf]

39. here's a quick and dirty translation

I realize everyone is beating you up, but don't hit back. Defending yourself is counterproductive.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

41. Actually, it probably is.

Being "beaten up" isn't a good metaphor for political debate, because unlike a blow, the effect of an insult is purely dependent on the person reading it.

From a thread I posted a while ago, it seems that in general Hillary's critics are doing quite a lot to drum up support for her, while her advocates tend to alienate people.

So just standing back and letting people insult you is probably your best strategy, and I suspect that all but the politest defence really is counterproductive.

I suspect that most of the posters expressing their views on candidates most firmly (in all directions) are doing so more to blow off steam than out of serious thought about whether doing so will achieve their goals or not.

[Forkboy]

45. I just thought they were already like that before the attacks on Clinton started.

:shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. It's A Chicken And Egg Problem But I See My Role Here As A Traffic Cop

DSB