Was Howard Dean our last, best hope?

[Fridays Child]

I will vote for the Democratic nominee but will that person have the character and the will to oppose this:

"And advanced forms of biological warfare that can “target” specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool."
-p.72, Rebuilding America's Defenses" at http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

I guarantee you that the genotypes which will be considered the most politically useful to target will not have white skin. Nor will they be straight, if a way can be found to identify a homosexual genotype.

[wyldwolf]

1. No, Howard Dean was not our last best hope...

Howard Dean was no better or worse than any of the other dems running.

[BL_Zebub]

10. Like HELL he isn't

ANYONE, be it Dean, Kucinich, or whomever, who is opposed to the sickening DLC sellout of the Demoncratic party to the likes of PNAC/PPI and shitbags like From and Marshall (throw McUseless in as well) is an automatic 666% improvement over those fully complicit in their sellout such as Kerry. And you can tell your bosses at DLC headquarters I said so.

[wyldwolf]

17. Howard Dean was no better or worse than any of the other dems running.

Sorry. Cold hard reality.

He, or those supporting him, fooled people into thinking he was something that he is not.

[Maddy McCall]

28. I agree...

If he had been the party's best hope, he would have received the nomination. Sad that his supporters couldn't translate their segmented support to the whole electorate.

[BL_Zebub]

33. Sad that some can't see past personal (unexplainable) hatred of Dean

to see what we as a party, and as a country have lost :evilfrown:

[wyldwolf]

54. sad that some people see criticism of Dean as "personal hatred..."

... I don't know the man, so it can't be personal.

[Darth_Kitten]

40. How did he supposedly fool people?

Telling it like it is? Actually holding the president accountable when the others WOULD NOT?????

[wyldwolf]

55. how about this...

People said he was anti-Iraq war, until they found out he wasn't.

People said he was anti-corporate influence, until they found out he wasn't.

People said he was strong on the environment, until they found out he wasn't.

[lurk_no_more]

48. Deflating to see dean was just a man

nothing more, nothing less isn't it?


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Nicholas_J]

53. Dean has been a political insider all his career

You don't think his campaigns as govenror were run on money from grassroots efforts. No Dean got 65 percent of his money for every run as Governor from either speical interests outside of Vermont or from the DNC with DLC authorization:

The influence of out-of-state donations: "Outside money is one of Howard Dean's specialties. Of the $ 312,290 the governor raised for his 1996 election, 65 percent came from out-of-state contributors: labor unions, Washington lawyer-lobbyists, the health care industry, to name a few of the special interests." n13 For the 1994 election "Dean, for example, received more money from major pharmaceutical manufacturers during the reporting period ($ 11,000) thin he did from people and companies located in Burlington ($ 10,460)." n14 One editorial said, "it's no mystery why out-of-state contributors pumped hundreds of thousands of dollars into Vermont campaigns. ... They're trying to buy influence. But the cost is public trust." n15

http://www.brookingsinstitution.org/dybdocroot/gs/cf/headlines/cases/LandellvSorrell.DOC

The real tale of a Vermont Politician who cnanot be bougt is the story of Anthony Pollina, who without accepting a dime from special interests, corners 25 percent in every Vermont Election he runs in and in fact, many Vermonters abandoned Deans conservative, political insider run government in order to back Pollina, resulting in Pollina Pulling 10 percnt of the vote from Dean in 2000, and 25 percent of the vote in the 2002 run for Lt Governor. Pollina is the future of the third party movement in American.

Trippi and Grossman set up a very clever campaign of attarcting the disaffected, but they had to create a Dean that did not exist in history. THis more than anything caused Deans downfall, the real Dena just could not help from popping out from behind the persona created for him by Trippi. When Trippi left, there was no one to restrain Dean, and his campaign collapsed.

[Darth_Kitten]

57. Oh, and the great american electorate.......

saw through Dean's facade, eh? A people who apparently still give this president a free pass?

What did Dean do DIFFERENTLY suddenly that made people "turn" on him? :shrug:

[The Magistrate]

2. No, Ma'am, Not Even Close To That

He is a professional politician who trimmed his sails to a tack he thought would waft him towards a position of greater power than he heretofore enjoyed....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[THUNDER HANDS]

3. i hope not

I'd like to think Kerry is. Because if Kerry, being a war hero liberal, can't get elected president than I doubt we'll ever see a real liberal get elected ever again in our lifetime.

[BL_Zebub]

12. If Kerry has voted like a "real liberal" since the Bush coup

Then I'm still an O8)

[LuminousX]

4. Howard Dean has given us hope

He has opened doors we didn't even know existed. Not the last, not the best, just hope.

[arcos]

5. last? no... best? yes n/t

[demnan]

6. Maybe our best hope but not our last hope

[MercutioATC]

7. Maybe, but not our "only" hope.

Kerry can beat Bush. Unfortunately, what we'll end up with is another "business as usual" Democrat in the oval office who will do nothing but further weaken the Party. Decisions like these are bringing about our slow death.

[FreeperSlayer]

Uh, Howard Dean wasn't close to our best chance

Chin up and all that.

[BL_Zebub]

14. He was our ONLY chance.

Kucininch had a HELL of a message, but no chance against the Bush induced fear culture. The pro war DLC candidates voted for most of Bush's agenda, so if they support Bush, what reason is there to vote for them.

Dean represented real change in a candidate credible under current conditions. And that's why the corporatists had to stop him.

Enjoy the results of a legitimately elected lame duck Bush term. By the end of it, HELL might be more tolerable for most of you than the country once known as America :evilfrown:

[wyldwolf]

18. Dean was/is a pro-war "corporatist"

He proposed a brief wait before the Iraq invasion and wanted to make Vermont a corporate tax haven rivaling Bermuda.

The best route to a legitimately elected lame duck Bush second term was a Dean nomination.

Cold hard reality.

[edzontar]

20. If so, what does that make Kerry?

As SUPER, EVEN MORE pro-war "corporatist"?

You betcha!!!!

[wyldwolf]

21. We're not talking about Kerry... we're discussing Dean...

..and, specifically, to BL_Zebub who believes Dean was something he wasn't.

We can discuss Kerry all day long, but this thread is specifically about Howard Dean and whether or not he is/was some liberal superhero.

[Casablanca]

32. Dean wasn't supported as a liberal superhero ...

He was supported as a progressive with a solid fiscal conservative track record.

Kerry is promoted as the uber-liberal insider, and it's precisely that that makes him unelectable.

[wyldwolf]

50. unfortunately for you, the voters disagree...

[Darth_Kitten]

42. Thought Kerry was the liberal superhero.........

:shrug: see that's where I'm confused, I don't know where Kerry stand s NOW.

[BL_Zebub]

26. The cold hard reality is

There is nothing remotely "Democratic" about the DLC. Why don't you guys go join the 'Pukes if you want to be them so badly?

Simple answer: The entire purpose of the DLC is to destroy the Democratic party from within.

The voting records of DLC candidates since the 2000 coup confirm this, as does the complete LACK of leadership from McAwful, Daschle. Hillary, Pelosi, Biden, Kerry, Bayh, Breaux and the rest of the fucking sellouts.

[wyldwolf]

51. the cold hard reality is...

..some people are sore losers.

[Sushi-Lover]

27. Not that I love a corporate tax haven, but

isn't there a large difference between rewarding companies for being in a state in our country and them being rewarded for leaving the country? To tell you the truth if I was the Gov of a rather small state that needed more jobs and business I would do exactly the same thing. So sue me. Your post sounds a bit like slightly twisted to fit my preconceived prejudices reality, much like the rest of us fallible humans.

[eric_schafer]

65. Thank you

for sharing your reality with us. I agree that it is cold and hard.

[saltpoint]

8. Not at all.

I predict a wave of meaningful reform in public institutions across the country.

Look how many cities have already passed resolutions in defiance of the U.S. Patriot Act.

When that many towns tell the Attorney General to go to hell, there's good tidings afoot.

Not easy, maybe. But real good.

[_Wayne_]

9. He was the least electable among Clark, Edwards, Kerry

America isn't ready for a president like Howard Dean (to our misfortune). Ditto for Sharpton, Kucinich, and Braun-all would have suffered an embarassing defeat to Bush in November. The Dems are voting smart this time around. He wasn't our best hope-not by far.

[Guaranteed]

38. Can you actually tell us why he was unelectable?

Or are you just taking CNN's word for it?

[John_H]

64. I can

With 200 million bucks and a willing media Chimp and Karl are going to succeed in making this election about fear. Howard Dean would have been destroyed on that issue. Period.

Dean Supporters can't have it both ways. If the "Osama" ad worked, as many Dean supporters say it did, it worked because it exploited Dean's most obvious weakness. Can you imagine the ad Chimp would have run if Dean was the nominee?

Whoever ran that ad could never have run it against Kerry or Clark.

[MissMarple]

11. I think Dean is a sign of things to come. This has just started.

And things may get VERY INTERESTING before democratic goals are realized. If you believe in the political pendulum, Dean has just given it a big articulated kick toward government protecting the rights of the individual and promoting everyone's general welfare.

Crony corporatism is moribund and on its way out. For a while, at least. :evilgrin:

[Darth_Kitten]

43. You GO, girl.

:) :thumbsup: :bounce:

[saltpoint]

59. Very nice post, MissMarple.

Thanks.

[Justitia]

13. Do you hear that giant sucking sound?

It's the sound of all the air going out of Election '04.

Dean's leaving has created a vacuum so intense, it will cause the Dem party to implode, yet again.

This party deserves whatever it gets in Nov., yet THE PEOPLE deserve so much more.

[MrBenchley]

15. The sound I hear

seems to be Democrats cheering that we have an electable candidate who stands for liberal values, and Republicans muttering in fear as their unelected drunk wobbles around the country telling people worried about losing their houses and savings how much better off the country is with richer billionaires and jobs going overseas.

[Justitia]

16. sounds like whistling thru the graveyard to me - eom

[Maddy McCall]

30. Just because a sect of Democratic voters wish the implosion of the party

will not make it happen. Sorry. :eyes:

[Justitia]

34. oh, so now we're a sect?

How baronial of you. Sorry, I'm an "Old Democrat" and I consider my party hijacked by the hapless, do-nothings like your candidate.

All I want is for my party to be the strong, meaningful party it once was, that protected, fostered and fought for the principles that defined it. You know, those ones you might have read about in history books???

The implosion, should it come, is the direct result of the current appeasers in Congress. It is their responsibility, no one else's.

After all, only they had the voting power to make it different - and they chose not to.

[Darth_Kitten]

47. If the Democratic party can't TRULY appeal to progressives......

liberals, and moderates, it's BASE, then it deserves to implode (ouch) :( :nuke:

[Maddy McCall]

29. beautiful retort, Mr. Benchley.

:thumbsup:

[BL_Zebub]

31. And exactly which "liberal values" has Kerry stood for since 12/12/00?

He's voted in lock step with the agenda of the Bush Criminal Empire. How can you define that as "liberal"?

[eyeswideopened]

39. Well Said

[edzontar]

19. Dean held the promise of real change--it almost hurts to have to

Even look at the race now, which is back to the old same old--the lesser of two evils, and no hope for real change.

[Justitia]

22. Dean should put his feet up, go fishing, whatever

Take a freakin' vacation. I know I am, after working my butt off for the last year.

Who good blame the Good Doctor if he decided to unplug forever?
He could easily say "screw it", let this party continue to destroy itself on it's path to martyrdom - I wouldn't blame him a bit.

For me, I'm gonna try to go back to real life. I just don't see that the hard slog effort is worth it to end up with candidates like the ones left over now.

We had a small window of opportunity, and we got it slammed shut in our faces.

[PlanetBev]

25. I was an early Dean supporter

I liked him and still do because he and Kucinich were the first to speak out and challenge the Chimp and the media. What alarmed me was that I have four friends who told me that there was something about Dean that they "just didn't like", but couldn't put their finger on exactly what it was. Since these friends are loyal Democrats, it worried me. If loyal Dems didn't like him, how would he play with moderate Repubs and Independents? I wish to hell this wasn't a popularity contest. At this point, I don't even care if I like the candidate personally. I just want those maniacs out of The White House.

[Casablanca]

35. What it was about Dean that they "just didn't like" ...

That big red "A" that was painted on him for two straight months. Social aversion training takes care of the rest. With these type of people, it's not the man, it's the "A".

Oh, and some people are uncomfortable with passion, and people who draw outside the lines, too.

With social aversion training and threat-based programming, a fascist doesn't need to hack election systems to overthrow the core of real democracy. The people do it all for them.

[DebJ]

44. Honesty. Americans have an aversion to honesty in politics.

[diamondsoul]

61. Hmm. Well for me,

it was that he reminded me a lot of Bill Clinton. Still does sometimes, but once I was able to identify that, I managed to put it aside as an irrational criteria to judge him with.

[Crunchy Frog]

63. I know my sister had such a strong aversion

to him, that she wasn't even going to vote if he was the nominee. To her, he came off as almost a mirror image of Bush.

I liked him at first, in fact, he was my first choice until Clark entered, but as time went on, his liabilities became more apparent to me, and I found myself liking him less and less.

That's just a couple of peoples opinions, for whatever they're worth.

[goodhue]

23. nope

[AP]

24. Was Obi Wan the resistance's last, best hope? Nope.

[Guaranteed]

36. Hopefully not our last hope.

And hopefully he can still be effective. My guess is that he will be.

[bhunt70]

37. No, every election has people like him.

[DebJ]

45. based on the 30 years I've been voting, I have to strongly disagree

[DebJ]

41. and wait until they find the 'dem' gene!

[Guava Jelly]

46. The Future is our last best Hope

The past is just that ..the past.
Hope is what you make it.
"Hope is the thing with feathers"...(from the book. Without Feathers..Woody Allen)
"Hope is all we have" ..Lorien Babylon 5 4th season
"But hope also requires work"..GoPsUx
I hope we can all work together and shape a real un-orwellian future where everyone is at the table equal and unseperate.
As long as the vision, the thought ,the faint shadow or a glimpse of something better exist Their is hope..

[MurikanDemocrat]

49. No. And don't be so quick to wite his obit

Dean has indicated he will still be a force for change in the Democratic Party and keeping his issues alive. I assume that means he will continue his work after the election.

[MICHAEL_LAPERE]

52. You can't be a maverick & win

I don't think Howard Dean was any great hope. I respect his unconventional campaign, he was able to bring in voters previously under represented. He was popular early on as a maverick, someone to take a look at.

In times when our national security is still a concern, I just don't believe people can stomach dramatic change. Kerry is gaining appeal, not because he is a fresh face- but because he is a safe choice. Whether or not this is good for our country is another debate. Our agenda has no chance of becoming policy until we get back the White House.

[no name no slogan]

56. Not our last, certainly not our best

His corporatist, centrist past in VT is part of the reason I could not support him. I agreed with his rhetoric, but didn't find him to be a credible messenger of the progressive cause, especially since we had a true progressive in the race.

These things seem to go in cycles: once every dozen years or so, after the centrists/conservatives have dominated the party (and sent us down the road to defeat again and again), somebody from the disenfranchised left comes into prominence. It happened in 1968 with McCarthy, in 1980 with Jerry Brown, and in 1988 with Jesse Jackson.

And eventually it will happen again, when the Democrats get sick of the Repub-lite direction that the centrists and DLC are taking this party.

[littlejoe]

58. Howard Dean is not our last best hope, but Kerry is.

[diamondsoul]

60. One of them maybe, but why are you

talking as if you're writing him off completely right now? I don't support him and I'm not writing him off completely yet!

I hope he's considering speaking to Kucinich, mending their differences and contemplating an alliance to keep the progressive voice and movement alive in this election. I disliked his apparent dismissal of Kucinich from the outset, but man, I love Dean for what he's done in his own right.

[Crunchy Frog]

62. No, Clark was our last, best hope.

But I really don't think that any of the Dem candidates embrace the PNAC agenda.

Clark, by the way, was the only one to even talk about PNAC.

[no name no slogan]

67. DK was talking about PNAC

Not to slam Clark in any way, but I just wanted to point out that DK has talked about PNAC too.

Of course, since the media has been practicing a virtual DK blackout, I can completely understand how you may not have heard about it ;)

[Crunchy Frog]

68. I'm sorry for the omission

I didn't realize it, thank you for bringing it to my attention.:)

[dawn]

66. I think we did lose a great candidate...

He was one of the reasons I got back into politics late last year. I really do think the media took him down, long before the scream.

He could have easily beat Bush*. That's why I think they took him down. And he would have changed things..and people in power don't want their boat rocked.