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[Name removed]

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[Feanorcurufinwe]

1. Forgive me if I don't find this surprising.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

2. Hi you fellow Kerry supporter! I'm glad to see that there are some...

Kerry defenders here. For a LLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOONG time, I defended
Howard Dean against the most horrific assaults but after seeing many, not all but many of his supporters are going to Edwards, this
offically ends more defense of Dean. I will let Dean's supporters
defend him. I will allocate all my resources to defending one man,
Senator John F. Kerry!

It's nice to here from a fellow Kerry supporter.

[EXE619K]

3. No need to worry.

I, for one, will not support anybody out of the "Revenge" factor and I would like to implore other Dean supporters to do the same.

That being said, John Kerry sucks!

[BL_Zebub]

4. Don't take this personally, Pete

Because you're a decent enough guy, but some of us just can't use the words "Kerry" and "principle" in the same sentence. Because if the man ever had any, he sure hasn't used them in the last three years.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

7. Who do you support?

.

[BL_Zebub]

42. I support my Most Unholy self.

Look at the signature :evilgrin:

[GodHelpUsAll2]

13. Interesting

Wee need to get some cheese to go with all the whine that is about to comence.

[BurtWorm]

5. I won't switch to Edwards.

During primary season, I'm voting for Dean. I'll see what happens at the convention before deciding what to do during the general election.

PS: I won't switch to Kerry either, by the way. And I think it's sad that after all the blood that spilled between Kerry and Dean, Kerry people are angry that Dean supporters don't just forgive and forget.

[Walt Starr]

6. If Dean does drop out, Edwards has my vote on March 16th

Edwards is the only anti-Kerry left if Dean drops out.

[maddezmom]

8. what's strange to me is:

When Clark backed Kerry, a few Dean supporters were outraged that Clark would endorse now and not wait to back the nominee. But now that Dean may back Edwards, it's acceptable to the same few. :eyes:

[HuskerDem]

12. Flip flopping on positions

was part of basic training.

[progressivebydesign]

14. No.. it wasn't that he wouldn't wait..

.. it was that it rang false.. the whole endorsement stank of backroom politics. Clark endorsing Kerry was just plain bizzarre.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

19. Just think of the hypocracy?

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[GodHelpUsAll2]

20. I have heard nothing

Other than the media hacks suggesting Dean backing anoyone. Wouldn't it be better to actually wait to see what happenes before the blood letting begins?

[maddezmom]

23. sure, but ya might want to check out a few threads here @ DU

on the topic. :)

[GodHelpUsAll2]

35. No thanks

The scurry for Dean support is embarassing at best. I'll pass

[Kahuna]

50. I know. It was like....so surreal.... I couldn't grasp the...

reality of what of what I was seeing. I decided to just take it with a grain of salt. :eyes:

[ibegurpard]

56. Wrong

We were outraged that he would back KERRY.

[AP]

9. Are they not supposed to vote, or to care deeply about the outcome?

[KC21304]

10. I agree, especially if you consider that Edwards had

no reservations about IWR and actively participated in drafting the Patriot Act. He may have been trying to improve it but Kerry also tried to hold Bush's feet to the fire on IWR. The bottom line is they both voted for both IWR and Patriot Act.

[bearfartinthewoods]

43. and what if that participation was the inclusion of the sunset

provision into a bill that everyone knew was going to pass?

this whole "he wrote the pat act is starting to ring hollow because there is no proof that he wanted anything other than the info sharing provisons and to make sure it had to be re voted on when cooler heads prevailed.

[progressivebydesign]

11. Maybe we just don't like Kerry...

It's not hypocrisy to choose a candidate other than Kerry. I've never liked Kerry, I tried.. I really did. His health plan is useless to people without money. Edwards is more authentic to me. He has always been my second choice. By pre-emptively threatening Dean supporters this way, you can find a new way to attack Dean supporters, long after he's left the race. Now we're hypocrites if we don't like Kerry. If we liked Kerry, then what are we? Bandwagon jumpers? I say.. why don't the Kerry people leave the Dean people alone for five minutes? The body isn't even cold yet.

p.s. What is with this John F. Kerry, JFK, thing lately all over DU. It's oh so unsubtle. He's no JFK.

[HuskerDem]

17. Oh but they are his initials................ And if you just plain don't

like Kerry that's fine, the posters point was quit pretending you were standing on principle. (not you personally)

It was personal, not principle. Heart, not head.

[EXE619K]

21. Principles?

Principles and John Kerry?

Kinda like fire and ice eh?

[HuskerDem]

53. Did you read my post or just skim over it before you hit reply?

I was speaking to the lack of principle in certain Dean SUPPORTERS.

Not Dean, not Kerry.

Your reply makes no sense.

[last1standing]

15. It is a very principled decision in that Kerry has none.

Kerry's a weathervane who supports whatever his audience of the moment wants him to. At least Edwards stands up for his principles regardless of the audience.

[mr715]

18. What!?

Kerry and Edwards have a near identical voting record in the last 6 years in the Senate.

There is no substantive difference between them in policy.

The only difference is that Kerry's record is longer than Edward's.

Sheeeeesh

[paulk]

59. instead of just gratuitously smearing Kerry

with your weather vane comment, why don't you back it up?

Kerry has been very consistent in his support of liberal causes throughout his entire political career. If you have something to back your "no principles" assertion, by all means, spit it out.

[californiahippie]

16. What I don't get...

is why candidates like Dean are pressured to drop out of the race. Aren't we entitled to have a number of candidates to vote for? I fell like by the time they get to California, i'll be able to choose between Kerry, Kerry, and Kerry. I understand financial concerns, but if a candidate wants to stay in the race, why the pressure to drop out? Maybe someone can explain this to me.

[Castilleja]

31. Exactly, californiahippie,

EXACTLY, what the hell is the point, when only one person is still running????

[Armstead]

22. Not quite, Pete

At least not for me. If Kerry is the nominee I'll support him out of ABB.

But I won't like it, because I do not feel on issues Kerry is very strong. And, from a pragmatic standpoint, I think he'll be a bad candidate.

Kerry is part of the problem, but now he's pretending to be part of the solution. His position on trade is basically wrong (in my opinion, of course). His position on Iraq was wrong. But, unlike Lieberman and Gephardt he did not even defend his position on principle. Instead he tried to have it both ways. Kerry seems that way on everything.

Even though I disagree with Edwards on the war, Edwards does not back away from his position, just to sound good to everyone. And, assuming he his being honest about it, Edwards at least recognizes that corporate "free trade" is fundamentally flawed...Unlike Kerry who still buys into it.

I also think that Edwards at least acknowledges Kucinich -- who is the real truth teller in this race. Kerry seems to view Kucinich with condescention.

And pragmatically as a candidate, I think Kerry is the worst of both alternatives. He'll be tarred as a liberal by the GOP, but he won't really be a liberal or progressive. Just more DLC pablum.

You gots to go with the choices you're given. And of a choice between Kerry and Edwards, it's easier to accept Edwards, both on priniciple and out of a belief that he is probably more "electable."

[PROGRESSIVE1]

25. Edwards still supports Bush's illegal war in Iraq and...

still defends the Patriot Act. John Kerry has come around on
both issues. Kerry wants to revise the Patriot Act.

[Armstead]

28. Kerry and Edwatds both want to revise the Patriot Act

I actually don't think the Patriot Act has to be a bad thing if it is only targeted very narrowly to actual terrorism, and is very closely limited in what it allows and is monitored closely.

[jpgray]

30. You call yourself a leftist? (nt)

[Pab Sungenis]

71. Revise?

If he wants to REVISE it, then I AM going to abandon him.

If he wants to REPEAL it, I'll join behind him.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. And this postition amazes me

Given that Kerry gets higher marks than Edwards from Human Rights Campaign, voted against DOMA, got the backing of the ALF-CIO (hardly an anti-progressive policy org.) gets higher marks on environmental issues than ANY other candidate and has used his vote more times than not to vote against policies that were anti-progressive.

He took a beating here for his interference on behalf of the funding of the "Big Dig" but I think all those jobs were UNION jobs that were in jeopardy of being lost.

He drafted the legislation that was to monitor offshore banking.

While I don't dislike Edwards, you are going to tell me that a person who believes in this war is more principled than a person who feels he was lied to about key issues concerning that vote?

Again, I don't dislike Edwards but this is a man that literally began campaigning for President from the moment he got to the senate...but somehow Kerry is framed as the opportunist?

[ibegurpard]

24. It seems ludicrous to me

that some Kerry supporters, many of whom were the biggest proponents of "Anybody but Dean" would be outraged that many Dean supporters would not be willing to support Kerry. All other things being equal, of course we will consider the way other candidates and campaigns have treated us.

[Cuban_Liberal]

26. Why should they 'admit' anything of the sort?

There are MANY issues that distinguish Sen. Edwards from Sen. Kerry, and it is the height of presumptuosness to assume to 'know' why Dean supporters may now choose to support Sen. Edwards.

[Name removed]

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[Cuban_Liberal]

75. Monster A vs. Monster B.

Whichever one is less monstrous, perhaps? :shrug:

[CWebster]

27. Really?

Thought you drifted into Dean's camp when Kerry hit the rails and then when Kerry got promoted suddenly you are defending Kerry from the Dean onslaught?

We have stood our ground through it all and we witnessed Kerry's rise at the expense of Dean through universal media slams and dirty tricks, after Kerry focused on attacking Dean for months using Right-wing talking points. We know that Kerry was being bank-rolled by the media and Dean had more negative coverage.

I don't like the cut of Kerry's jib, and I don't like the way he has to play to "win". I don't like that in order to rally any support for him as the only "electable" chance is by dangling ABB. It is calculated based on sheer unelectibility, ironically enough, since this is the only winning strategy employed--that and the alpha male shtick. Spare me.

We have a choice.

[Name removed]

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[GumboYaYa]

29. I already voted for Dean in my primary so I have no dog in the

fight, but I disagree that it is somehow hypocrisy to vote for Edwards now.

Edwards and Kerry both have their flees having voted for IWR and the Patriot Act, but to say the differences between the two are purely personal is not correct. Edwards is clearly more populist when it comes to trade protection. That is a giant difference. Moreover, Kerry made "electability" the major issue in the campaign. There are lots of good arguments as to why Edwards is in fact more electable than Kerry. Don't blame others if Kerry gets hoisted on his own petard over electability.

If you are looking for a mea culpa from Dean supporters now, don't hold your breath. I feel sorry for my brethren that have not had the chance to vote for Dean yet. I don't envy the ones who feel they have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

Personally, if I still had a vote to give and Dean was not on the ballot my vote would go to Dennis Kucinich.

[lurk_no_more]

32. I've always been amazed at the hypocrisy

To get behind Edwards or Kerry at this point rings hollow the claims of the IWR vote meaning anything to some (not all) dean supporters.

I doubt dean will officially endorse Edwards just yet, if he does it will be when he sees a clear winner and climbs on board a winning ticket.

The amusement of watching some (not all) dean supporters flock to and defend Edwards, one of the Democrat cockroaches dean felt needed to go, is justification in my assessment that dean was/is just a bandwagon candidate.

That being said: I'm glad dean dropped out now rather than prolong the agony for himself and most (not all) of his supporters.

Good luck mr. dean!


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Nazgul35]

34. Perhaps life would be a little less stressful

for everyone if they would first learn what types of voters there are....

For those of you who are willing to differentiate in the type of support for candidates, here is a break down:

1) Dem activists: these are the people who send, money, canvass, people the phones, etc. They are the most informed about the candidates and their policies.

2) Primary voters: these are people who's activity consists of simply voting. They are less informed and active than those in the first group, but way more informed than those in group #3.

3) General election voters: these are people who only turn up for the general election. They are the least informed of these three groups. They are more susceptible to media influence, appearances, and appeals to symbolic rather than substantive discussions.

Of the three groups, group #1 is a small portion of the party voters.

So my question is....which of these three groups are the ones who have supposedly engaged in hypocrisy? I have seen nothing to suggest that group #1 voters left Dean. Group #2 may have, but not for the reasons that you state....those voters did not have the same bond that group #1 voters had....

Perhaps you should put away the conspiracy theories and focus on the fact that you now have a horse race on your hands....if the plan of Kerry supporters is to scream republican or (and this is a new one) Dean supporters are subverting your candidate's corination....I don't think your success probability is going to be very high....

Your argument is specious...pure and simple...

[Name removed]

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[Nazgul35]

44. where?

where are these voters you claim to have talked to?

Wisconsin? Because if they are not in Wisconsin, your point is specious...

But let's just assume that every Dean supporter you have attributed this behavior too was from Wisconsin (a big assumption)...How many people are you talking about? Edwards received 283,326 votes last night.....how many of those were Dean switchers?

Let us assume that you have a representative sample (now we have an assumption on an assumption)....what percentage of those Dean supports (who, remember are all from Wisconsin) went Edwards?

Better yet, having completely ignored my point about the different types of voters involved in elections.....what percentage of those voters were Dean group #1 and Dean group #2? Specious yet again.....

It sn't just yourself, many of the other posters are suggesting that Dean supporters switched their votes in Wisconsin last night just to spite Kerry.....that whole argument is based upon a very weak argument......

As I said above, the most likely voters to switch toKerry last night were from group #2....and their reasons for changing do not involve any kind of conflict.....

You must also realize that different people have different preference ordering...you assume that people supported Howard Dean because of the Iraq War....but they may have had other reasons that were more important, and that to them, if Dean was unviable, than Edwards was a better alternative.....what that issue was, no one knows.....

This argument is weak.....that is all I am saying. A little more honest assessment of our candidates and a little less of the grand conspiracies will make us better prepared going into Nov.

[Name removed]

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[GodHelpUsAll2]

51. I can say

From this Dean supporters view, when Kerry sputtered around almost endlessly in Sunday's debate and did EVERYTHING BUT answer the simple question about taking some responsibility for the IRW only to have the wind taken out of his sails by Edwards who simply said "Of course" when asked the same question. For me, that said that one of of a couple of possible things had occurred.

1. Edwards truely does regret and sees his vote for the IRW was wrong
or
2. Edwards has at least woke up and realized that this is an issue and he better, in the very least, sound like he can take some responsibility for his actions and correct them going forward because the "it's not my fault blame it on everyone else" theme is being used non stop by the current administration and you need to be able to show there is a difference between you and them to have a snowballs chance in hell.

I was absolutely againts the Iraq war. And am now left with only 2 choices in the GE. If I have to pick the lesser of 2 evils I will take the one who at least makes some effort to make the things I strongly disagree with right.

After saying that, would it be preferred if I just voted green or not at all? After all, it's been common knowledge of late that it's the Dean supporters who will hand the election to Bush in 2004. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

[edzontar]

37. I am presently supporting DEAN....and will vote for

Whoever the last candidate is who REALLLY opposed the war.

[LuminousX]

38. Edward's has been straight with his votes

and has never tried to cut it both ways.

[eileen_d]

40. "He's wrong, but at least he never wavers"

Never mind that he's a pro-war Washington Insider... at least he's honest about it?

It makes no sense. I agree with Pete - part of the explanation is a negative bias against Kerry. Of course this negative bias has roots in reality, since Dean and Kerry have both attacked each other in various ways. But it's gotten to the point where people can only see what's WRONG with Kerry and no longer even bother to investigate what's RIGHT.

[Name removed]

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[BL_Zebub]

49. Actually, yes.

I'd rather have someone tell me to my face that he supported a detestable policy and still believes in it than have someone excuse such a vote and say he "didn't mean it" or whine about being lied to.

Did Junior lie? of course he did. But Kerry should have known Junior was a liar, because his lips were moving. Surrendering the constitutional authority to declare war was something that should not have been done without concrete proof that Iraq was a threat to the United States. And we all know such proof would have never existed. Both Kerry and Edwards (along with far too many others) are guilty of this sellout. Kerry looks worse though, because he changes his spin on the vote depending on which way the political wind blows.

Now having said that, I must also add that at this time, I endorse no candidate other than myself.

[LuminousX]

69. You don't get it

MANY of us didn't like all of Dean's positions. But Dean never pretended we should. There is a lot to be admired about a person who stands up and says "I am going to do something that you may not like, but I have to do it because it is what I truly believe" instead of being a weasel.

Our issues with Kerry are deep. Kerry has been my second choice all along, so I'm not crying too many tears, but I am not so deluded as to think Kerry is a different animal than the Washington cretins who have brought us to this point in history. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[Nicholas_J]

45. Of course it was personal

There is little difference between Edwards and Kerry's voting record. Fortunately it took all of Edwards financial resourtces and most of his time to come up on Kerry in Wisconsin, He cant do the same thing in ten states over the next two weeks. He has neither the money or ability to be in those ten states simultneously, and it was his heavy persence in Wisconsin that brought him up so quickly in that state.

[enki23]

46. the personal character of a candidate has *always* been a factor

you can't really separate the two so easily.

[nonconformist]

48. Maybe, and this is just a guess

Since not only have I not read those threads but I'm not jumping on anyone's bandwagon until after the convention now, people see Edwards as more electable of the two. Ironic, yes, since the electablity factor has served Kerry so well - but tides change.

Speaking for myself, I don't like Kerry or Edwards stance on the Iraq war. Both are fine men; however, I do disagree with them on some key issues. It's become evident, however, that we're not going to get someone who was against the Iraq war from the beginning. I like Edwards' stance on NAFTA, and let's face it - Edwards has a lot more charisma than Kerry has. Should this matter? No. Does it? Yes - it translates into electability. When your ideal candidate(s) are out of the running, sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils and stop hoping for the candidate that you mesh with well ideologically - it becomes all about who can beat Bush.

So to sum it up - my objections to Kerry are principled. When faced with only TWO CHOICES, I pick Edwards because of NAFTA and character issues - since neither candidate is ideal IMO. Again, it's moot because I'm merely an observer now until after the convention.

[Kahuna]

52. Really. They're only mad at Kerry because he beat Dean..

like a red-headed step child.

I mean c'mon. He beat Dean fair and square.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

55. They just can't admit that Kerry is a tough candidate who....

knows what he is talking about.

https://contribute.johnkerry.com/

[RetroLounge]

54. It's threads like this that make me want to support

Edwards.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

67. Me too

And I find it amusing that the excuses for loss are already being set in motion. Ya think some are skeered????

[littlejoe]

58. As a former Dean supporter, I now back Kerry all the way

to the white house.

[eileen from OH]

60. Well, except for one teeny thing

Most Dean supporters said they were ultimately ABB which means that they had ALREADY accepted that they might have to vote for someone who supported IWR, etc.

That being said, it ain't personal for me - Edwards has long been my second choice.

And it's principled because I happen to think Edwards is a much more personable, attractive, and YES, ELECTABLE, candidate than Kerry. He is absolutely more likely to attract crossover votes, he's got a super message (the "Two Americas" theme), he articulates his message a billion times better than Kerry, and he's a crackerjack debater.

eileen from OH

[Name removed]

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[ibegurpard]

65. name recognition, front-runner syndrome and bandwagon jumping

IMHO

[seventhson]

61. My opposition to Kerry is ENTIRELY Principled and NOT personal

I oppose Kerry because I believe he is a total elitist with very few principles whatsoever.

I am skeptical of his military record. I am skeptical of his antiwar record. I am skeptical of his alleged ribbons/medals toss story.

I am skeptical of his honesty.

I am doubtful about his ability to win against Bush.

But my opposition to Kerry is BECAUSE of his principles and lack IMHO thereof.

Personally the guy might be just fine. I doubt it. But I have no real idea. He has a record, though, with respect to his principles - and I find it a pretty poor one overall.

[Name removed]

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[West Coast Democrat]

63. Dean supporters seem to still be very bitter against Kerry

That's very apparent

[in_cog_ni_to]

66. Dean DID

build his campaign and draw in supporters by his anti-war/anti-patriot act stance. My feelings are in line with Dean's and THAT is why I cannot jump on the Kerry bandwagon unless Wes Clark is on the ticket. For me, it is principled. I honestly thought the Dean supporters were anti-war/anti-patriot act too. :shrug:

on edit.

Edwards now knows that the Bush cabal LIED about the WMD and he STILL believes the war was the RIGHT thing to do. He STILL believes that it was right to illegally and pre-emptively attack another country on a LIE.

[ecstatic]

68. Yeah, they both voted for war, but Edwards is way more likeable

and has a way bigger chance against Pres. Bush. If war heroes are crucial to ousting Bush, then Edwards can choose Kerry or Clark to be his VP.

[Fleshdancer]

70. Is it NOT allowed to give Dean supporters one damn day?

1. The candidate we busted our asses for over a year just dropped today. If 24 hours is too long to give us before screeching "hypocricy" and making sweeping ridiculous accusations about us, then how about 12 hours? 8? 4???

2. Name ONE Dean supporter who said they were okay with Edward's vote on IWR or the Patriot Act. One.

3. If I choose not to back YOUR candidate...then in the famous words of YOUR candidate: Get over it!

4. I'm not a "Deanie" I'm a Dean supporter. Sure it takes a few more seconds to type out, but it's not difficult.

5. If you think IWR and the Patriot Act are the only things people have against Kerry, then you're not seeing the big picture.

6. Name ONE Dean supporter who is "blindly" throwing their support behind Edwards now. Throughout this entire ordeal, I have NEVER met one single Dean supporter that went into ANYTHING blindly.

[feistydem]

72. If the Democratic nominee loses to Bush, this could be the reason

Because we Dems are so busy chewing off our own arms.

There is one goal in my mind: Get Bush out of the White House.

I owe it to my children
I owe it to less privileged people
I owe it to the seniors
I owe it to the unemployed
I owe it to the troops
I owe it to integrity, fairness and the rule of law
I owe it to the environment
I owe it to myself

John Kerry will beat Bush. John Edwards will be swallowed up because he lacks experience in government --which may appeal to some people, but in times of war and terrorist acts, will not appeal to the majority of Dems and Independents, and maybe even a few reluctant Republicans.

It seems pretty clear to me what we need to do. This is not a "Nader" year. This is not an election we can afford to throw away over ideology. This is a MUST WIN situation!

[Malikshah]

73. Unabashed arrogance

That is the reason I would back Edwards over Kerry.

The thread title and message go to the core of why I am against Kerry, but will vote for him should he be given the nomination.

I have never seen more arrogance, and sense of entitlement than among some of Kerry's supporters.

You are doing the process a great disservice.

BTW-- I am against Kerry for practical reasons.

He does not provide an adequate alternative to *. Many voters will see that and opt for no change over change.

I am praying now that Edwards can pull it out of this rush to coronation. Otherwise I fear for the union.

[stopbush]

74. So now that Dean is out and it's down to two candidates who

supported IWR, your recommendation is what? That Dean supporters drop out and, on principle, support neither Edwards or Kerry in the primaries? Support only Kucinich or Sharpton? Refuse to vote for either Kerry or Edwards in the GE if they get the nomination? Support bush because he never actually had to vote for IWR?

You're usually good, Pete, but this post is simplistic in thought and sort of insulting as well.

[Name removed]

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[Moderator]

77. Locking.....

5. When discussing any Democratic presidential primary candidate, please refer to that person by their real name; do not use any rude, condescending, or otherwise inappropriate alternate names for any Democratic presidential primary candidate. When discussing a broad group of supporters or opponents of any Democratic presidential primary candidate, do not use any rude, condescending, or otherwise inappropriate alternate names for them. Forbidden nicknames include, but are not limited to, the following: "Deaniacs," "Clarkies," "Kerry Haters," etc.


1. If you start a thread in this forum, you must present your opinion in a manner that is not inflammatory, which respects differences in opinion, and which is likely to lead to respectful discussion rather than flaming. The moderators have the sole authority to decide whether a thread topic is inflammatory. Extremely inflammatory or inappropriate topics will be deleted rather than locked, and the thread's author will receive a warning.


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