Kerry is speaking to the Senate now on C-Span 2 regardingi the BBB amentment. nt

[gateley]

[jillan]

1. Boxer was AMAZING!!!

Bear with me - I am catching up here from being gone.

I ff thru Hutchinson to get to Kerry.

[gateley]

2. I missed her -- but I have no doubt she was!! nt

[jillan]

3. no way -

She stated the case for the Biden amendment in her own no-nonsense way.

She explained how someone gave her a book to read before the IWR vote that explained that the only reason Iraq was held together was due to Saddam's mighty hand. that they were always a nation divided, and that is why Biden's plan is right.

And she said something like - Iraq is the country it is, not the country you want it to be :toast:

[gateley]

4. I can't believe after I've been sitting here ALL DAY waiting I missed the beginning -

And to top it off, I didn't even bring up CSpan 2 because it was billed as a Labour Party Speech or something.

[jillan]

7. You only missed one speech - silly.

The best is yet to come.

[gateley]

11. I'm hoping to hear Boxer on DU or YouTube later.

And I'd like those who are hesitant about this to hear their (Boxer, Hutchinson, Kerry) take on it because between the three of them, it seems all the questions and arguments I've heard expressed have been addressed. And of course Joe!

[jillan]

14. It's refreshing actually to hear someone other than Biden

support this.

[Think82]

5. give Hutchinson credit too

Hutchinson also spoke very well on the bill. I am encouraged that Joe said that JOHN WARNER got involved in the bill over the weekend and they amended it to make it BETTER.

[jillan]

6. If Warner signs on - that is huge.

Kerry too - he said he was against this for the longest time.
Now his name is on the bill.

[gateley]

9. Yes and yes. When I first heard Kerry I was kind of sweating it not sure where

he was going.

And Warner said he was most likely to support it even after it was learned that they couldn't amend it at this time.

[gateley]

8. Agree! Hutchinson was EXCELLENT! nt

[jillan]

10. Kerry is laying it out - how can anyone argue with what he is saying?

Plus he said 'idear' I love it when he says that. :)

[gateley]

13. That's how my mom talked -- Bostonian! Hearing Kennedy and Kerry speak always

makes me think of her with a smile.

My dad was from Boston, too, but totally lost his accent and sounded like a Seattle native.

[jillan]

12. Warner - "I am inclined to support this amendment"

:bounce: :toast:

[jillan]

15. Levin - wtf?

that's the second time he has interrupted Biden from getting it done.

[gateley]

17. Warner never seems to let the fact that someone else is speaking stop him

from jumping right in at any old time -- I actually think it's kind of endearing, the old geezer.

[jillan]

19. He just pretty much told Levin to stfu

[jillan]

16. Biden now giving Kerry the respect Kerry deserves.

Biden - Kerry - Boxer

My favs all working together, all respecting each other!

The real leaders in the Senate.

[gateley]

18. It truly seems as though they SINCERELY like and respect one another. And

here's Levin again.

[gateley]

20. Who just objected? Is Lieberman there??? :-)

[jillan]

21. Kyl- my a-hole Senator - may sign onto this?

Biden is doing a great job of incorporating other people's suggestions.

Now that is a leader!

[gateley]

26. What makes you think Kyl will sign on? nt

[jillan]

40. maybe I was wrong - I heard Biden say he was going to allow something

that Kyl wanted put in to the amendment, then Kyl got up and said it wasn't him that asked.

I didn't think so. Kyl is a jerk - a total bushbot.

[gateley]

44. All I know about him is that he's linked to Lieberman in that horrific Iraq plan --

don't need to know anymore. You have my sympathy. Do you think he's worse than mine -- LIBBY Dole?

[beachmom]

34. Thanks for the play by play, Pirhana. I missed this, and look

forward to reading what was said in the Congressional record tomorrow.

[jillan]

38. It made my day to see Biden and Kerry giving each other

so much respect and praise in the area of foreign relations.

[Inuca]

43. That was indeed nice to hear n/t

[jillan]

22. Biden made it clear that we are not going to IMPOSE this on the Iraqi

people!

I hope certain people around here are listening.

[gateley]

24. Joe! No! It was supposed to be 10:00 THIS morning! My heart can't take it! nt

[TwilightGardener]

25. So what is it then--a non-binding suggestion to split up into three parts?

[jillan]

27. Watch.

I'm not going to explain it right now.

He never said he was going to impose this,

[TwilightGardener]

31. Yep--it's a non-binding resolution.

[jillan]

36. Non binding meaning that we are not going to force the Iraqis into anything

Binding - if it passes - that we will take this to the UN.

btw- Biden has already gone to the UN and talked to them about this, and got their approval.

[TwilightGardener]

39. Here's my ultimate question--if the Iraqis want this, why don't they just do it

themselves? Why does it involve American lawmakers, considering that our military and our state department can't really enforce this?

[jillan]

47. It is starting. that's what the success in Anbar province is all about.

The Iraqi's wrote this in their Constitution.
It was from the constitution that Biden/Gelb wrote this plan.

I wish I could remember how someone explained it as to why we need to help the Iraqi gov't get things started.
I can't find the right words right now. Bottom line is they need help. They are like a little kid that needs to be shown the way.

But if this amendment passes, the UN is going to have a greater role in Iraq. And Biden believes that would be the first step of our leaving Iraq - for good. His argument has always been that if we leave Iraq without them getting their 'house in order' that genocide would break out, and we would have to intervene at a later date. That's why for the last 4 years, he has been pushing for a political solution. Let the Iraqis take control of their own gov't so we can get the f-outta there.

[TwilightGardener]

50. I'm sorry, I still don't see how this gets us out of Iraq--what are we going to

do, sit and wait for them all to pack up and segregate themselves on their own? If they're already doing it, as you say, then why do we need this resolution? I apologize for sounding so skeptical, but this sounds like a meaningless vehicle for Presidential ambitions and for a "bipartisan" dog-and-pony show to make it look like the Congress is doing something about Iraq.

[gateley]

52. I'm strongly recommending you read or watch (if possible) Kerry's take on this.

But he basically said that when we went to Baghdad, it was 60-some percent Shia or Sunni (god help me, I keep getting the two confused); now it's 70-some percent of the other faction. The 'other' faction wants to control the entire country and that warring has gone on for thousands of years. The probably DO need a mediator to help work out an acceptable plan for all. Again, see if you can find what Kerry or Boxer said -- THEY understand what they're talking about.

This question you voice comes up a lot....

[TwilightGardener]

55. I have no problem with UN mediation--the Levin Reed amendment called for it.

All I'm asking is, what will a nonbinding "Sense of the Senate" resolution *DO* to end the war? I imagine all it can accomplish is to tell Chimpy that we, the Senate, think the Iraqis should come up with a political solution. I think everybody knows that by now. If we can't (and shouldn't) enforce a particular system over there, then...why spend this much time on it? To me, it sounds like the Senate is desperately grasping for something, anything, to say "hey, we're getting something done here, stop nagging us."

[TwilightGardener]

32. self-delete

[gateley]

33. I don't think that's an accurate assessment. The best answers may lie in the

presentations to the Senate -- Boxer, Hutchinson, Kerry, Biden. I found they addressed questions I had and areas I didn't understand.

[beachmom]

37. Good. That was my main objection to the plan when I first heard

about it. If the Iraqis agree to it on their own, then I am all for it!

[jillan]

41. See how you are - that was Kerry's main objection too.

[karynnj]

65. That was my main objection as well

For the same reasons Kerry always gave. I am glad that both Biden and Kerry gave a little here. Kerry has always mentioned this as a possible solution, but stressed it had to come out of a process including the Iraqis. He was speaking of a summit including teh neighbor and the UN since at least 2004.

[gateley]

I agree so wholeheartedly. It's truly a diplomatic approach -- and as I see it,

I think they're taking pains to ensure it's NOT another case of the big bad U.S. telling them what to do. We need to make amends and work with them to give them back their country.

[wisteria]

23. Ok, can someone explain the BBB amendment? I've been at work all day.

Thank you!

[jillan]

28. The Federalism of Iraq, as written from the Iraqi constitution.

The was Iraq was before Saddam took over.

Brought to the Iraqi gov't by the UN.

In a nutshell!!!

[gateley]

29. I'm going to refer you to Biden's Plan for Iraq site -- it's really a short explanation

and he can certainly explain it better than I.

www.planforiraq.com

BBB stands for Biden-Brownback-Boxer (if that's what you were asking)

If you want more info, I'd really suggest watching videos of the presentations to the Senate -- VERY well and easily explained.

[ProSense]

42. That plan has changed a lot over time, it was even being change on the floor. Here is

a more current version.

It gained support as it was made clear that this is a sense of the Senate resolution encouraging support for the Iraqis to decide on the best political solution for themselves.

The thing, as Kerry points out, is that it is separate from binding legislation to withdraw American troops from Iraq.

[gateley]

45. Thanks for this! nt

[TwilightGardener]

48. In other words, it's a "duh" amendment that achieves nothing? "Gee, Iraqis, we

encourage you to break up into three parts. But you don't have to. We just want you to get along. Thanks, sincerely, the U.S. Senate." How does this solve anything?

[jillan]

51. Why don't you read up on this instead of injecting your ridiculous

comments in this discussion.

[TwilightGardener]

53. Why are my comments ridiculous? I'm asking fair questions--I have had

my eye on this amendment for some time now, and in a nutshell, it sounds like a non-binding resolution that Iraq should probably split up into three parts, with the UN's blessing, and Iraqis can take it or leave it. Do I have it wrong? I don't want to hear all the floor speeches as to why it's a great idea--I want to know what this resolution will ultimately DO for our military and for the people of Iraq. It just seems like a waste of time--which is why asshats like Hutchinson, Warner, and Brownback are involved--Lord knows these idiots have NO intention of ending the war. Smells like meaningless political cover. If it DID something to get our military out of there, they'd be fighting it. That's my take on it. I would expect Biden supporters to be able to explain why this resolution is so meaningful and vital.

[gateley]

54. Well THIS Biden supporter is not articulate or politically savvy enough to

accurately explain why this 'resolution is so meaningful and vital' which is why I sincerely refer you to those who can explain it correctly.

Look, -- if you're seriously interested in understanding this, then go read up on it. Your questions appear 'fair' at first, and valid -- but regardless of our responses, it's not good enough for you and you use the opportunity to flaunt your belief that Hutchinson, Warner and Brownback have NO intention of ending the war and instead of trying to understand, come to the conclusion that it's a joke.

What will you be saying if we continue to do NOTHING?

[TwilightGardener]

56. LOL! I "flaunt my belief" that Warner, Brownie and Hutchinson don't

want to end the war based on their consistent votes against Webb/Hagel, Levin Reed, etc. If the Biden amendment was truly a threat to Chimpster's plan to keep us in Iraq FOREVAH, then they wouldn't be out there cheerleading for it. That's just common sense. I'm not saying I don't support this--I just question the need for it.

[gateley]

58. Well I DO see your point and I'm kind of laughing at myself for that statement

now. I do understand your questions and concerns, and have heard the same ones voiced frequently. But again, I'm obviously not the Biden supporter who is best qualified to respond to you.

I really hope someone can give you the answer you want -- whether you agree with it or not.

[TwilightGardener]

61. Thanks--

:)

[karynnj]

66. Here is why it is important:

Everyone says there is no military solution, you need to solve it politically. What this is is an amendment that pulls in the UN and puts the US behind the Iraqis defining a weak federation - rather than a strong federal government, which is the direction tried since 2004 that hasn't worked.

The Biden/Gelb plan is the root of it, but it is made clear that it won't be imposed by the US - This covers what was Keryr's objection that the US can not impose it.

If this could cause the UN and others to initiate a diplomatic summit, we could move ahead and start pulling back. (Diplomacy was the first step in every plan - including Kerry/Feingold)

It looks like what they are doing is pulling that piece apart from the troop withdrawal piece because it is the necessary first step and because any proposal with withdrawal will fail. This is an attempt to try to get something right that could pass.

[jillan]

57. I feel like I have explained this to you already.

Iraq originally was a country divided up along secretarian lines.
In comes Saddam Hussein, a brutal dictator that put himself in charge of the country.
Along comes the Bsh/cheney regime that thinks Iraq should be a democracy.
All hell breaks loose.

Biden, as head of the SFRC keeps going over there, sees what is going on.
Biden starts arguing 4 years ago that Iraq is never going to be a democracy, they are never going to be ruled by a central gov't.
But yet, bsh insists on sticking with his plan.

If this amendment passes - the Senate is saying to bsh that we are done trying to get Iraq into a unified country.
It wasn't before, and it won't be now. It is time to change the strategy in Iraq. We are not getting anywhere with military force.
The Iraqi constitution has called for a Federal gov't. The BBB amendment offers just that. Biden wrote his plan straight from their constitution. But most of all it is a change in our strategy in Iraq.
And to top it off, Iraq is beginning to do this on its own. Thousands of Iraqis are fleeing their homes to go into areas where their people are for safety reasons. The Kurds did this a long time ago. And Anbar Province has now as well.

It is a change in strategy. A change from trying to get Iraq to be the country bsh wants it to be, to the country that it always was. The UN will be helpful because they will be with us sitting down with the leaders of Iraq to work this out. It is not binding because we are not going to force the Iraqi gov't to do this. We are offering a change in strategy - a change that just may work to their benefit. But in the end, it is their country - their decision.

Does that help? I hope so, because I have tried to make this as simple as if I was explaining it to my kids who know nothing about foreign affairs.
You many also want to read this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1867658&mesg_id=1867658

[gateley]

59. Well done! Well done! WDoggie -- see if this is what you were looking for. nt

[TwilightGardener]

60. I don't really require the condescension, thanks. I know enough about

Iraq and foreign policy to ask relevant questions, and I understood the points you raised, because I heard a lot about the plan over the months. My main questions about the necessity and benefit of this plan are still going unanswered, but that's OK. The Senate will pass it and pat themselves on the back, and then...back to the drawing board.

[jillan]

62. I'm not trying to be condescending - just trying to explain it-

alot of people have a preconceived notion on the plan, and it's hard to break through sometimes.

The necessity is the Senate telling bsh that we are done trying to make Iraq a democracy.
He keeps sending more troops over there - for what? We are spinning our wheels, we are not getting anywhere.


The fact that repugs have acknowledged that bsh's plan is not working -is huge.

The benefit is a change in strategy in Iraq to get things settled down, and this amendment could put them in that direction.
Especially with UN support. If Iraq calms down, there is no reason why we can't get out of there.

[Inuca]

63. In a sense you are right,, but not quite

The way I see it, and I confess I did not study it in any detail, just what I gleaned from hearing Biden talk about it, Kerry this afternoon, with a splintering of others, including Brownback (who has brains, too bad he does not use it too often, and when he does it's mostly for the wrong things, but I digress :-), he gave a pretty good presentation on Friday though). So, the main points, the way I see them (anybody, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong):
- an intense an long-term diplomatic effort involving the Iraqis, the US, the UN security council, and I think neighboring countries
- the US should try to work toward a federal agreement, the details to be worked out, in principle at least, by the Iraqis
- for the people of Iraq: if it works out, it may lead to less bloodshed, and hopefully sometime in the unpredictable future, some form of real reconciliation which seems impossible to achieve at this point
- for our military: in the short and more or less predictable future, not much. Unless of course, as Kerry hs again spelled out very clearly today, this diplomatic effort will be coupled with a deadline.
- as you said, it is a non-binding resolution, so I guess the practical impact may be exactly zero, I do not know. But on the other hand, as Warner pointed out today, and I agree with him on this, it may be the first time some attempt at a political solution may garner a true bipartisan support, which in and by itself may be a step in the right direction. Not a very bog step, I agree, but still.

I could probably go on a bit longer, but I have to go and watch Keith O :-).

[wisteria]

64. Thanks! n/t

[Think82]

35. CSPAN2

you can watch it online as well.

[jillan]

30. Levin - this is the way to end the violence in Iraq.

I take back my rude comments a few posts earlier :P

[gateley]

46. What happened? What's GOING to happen and when? nt

[jillan]

49. C'mon Gateley - the Senate worked for a whole hour - they need a break.

I don't know. Working on amendments or something.

Biden said if they don't vote on it today, that he wanted them to vote on it tomorrow at 10 cuz he has to go to this pesky little
debate tomorrow nite:rofl: He's so funny. You know as well as I, he loves those debates.