The "Sensible Center"

[polichick]

Evan Bayh said on MSNBC today that Senator Clinton is seeking out the "sensible center" ~ but is it really so sensible to keep hugging that center line???

[wyldwolf]

1. very sensible

[polichick]

2. Maybe it seems safe for the GE...

But we need to reclaim this country in a meaningful way.

[wyldwolf]

3. many think centrism is meaningful.

Sorta why Centrists keep getting elected.

[polichick]

4. I don't consider Bush a centrist. nt

[wyldwolf]

5. neither do I

:shrug:

Are you only concerned with the Presidential level?

[polichick]

6. No, I'm sick of the Blue Dog Dems too...

It's pretty obvious that we're getting nowhere with so many Republican Lite Dems in place ~ I'd like to see a much more significant change.

[wyldwolf]

7. well, there seems to be a big difference in what you're sick of and who keeps getting elected.

[polichick]

8. Perhaps now that voters can see what Dem caution has amounted to...

They'll be smarter in 2008 ~ either that or vote Rep. We need a real choice between a real Rep and a real Dem.

[wyldwolf]

9. you forgot to add "IMHO" to your reply

Because that's what it is -- your humble opinion.

Looks like if a Dem wins in 2008, it will be a centrist.

[polichick]

11. Lol...where's your IMHO? nt

[wyldwolf]

15. for what?

Do you believe anyone other than Clinton or Obama will get the Dem nom in '08?

[depakid]

119. Centricism is just a code name for cowards and far right enablers

It's essentially people who don't stand up for traditional Democratic values- and would sell out their constituents on pretty much any issue, no matter how much harm it causes to individuals or to the environment or the economy.

[groovedaddy]

10. How well is the center informed on issues?

Are they victims of mainstream media?

[wyldwolf]

12. very

Which is why they're centrists.

They're not victims of ravings from the left and right.

[groovedaddy]

35. Disagree.

I canvass. I make it a point to talk with people. I find that many are ill informed across a broad range of issues. Now, are they the "center?" How do you define center? The people who keep electing "blue dogs?"

[wyldwolf]

61. uh... ok

I canvass, too. :shrug: I have since '88. I find most people willing to open their doors and talk have a far reaching knowledge of the issues.

[groovedaddy]

70. Statistics have shown that the percentage of people

who READ either newspapers or books is in about the 20% range. Are you saying that the middle/center is this 20%?
I doubt it. It's also been shown that Liberal/progressive voters are BETTER EDUCATED and do read, meaning that they probably make up most of that 20%.
Where do the rest get their information? TV/Radio, which lacks substantive analysis, for the most part, and is now slanted more toward opinion than fact.
I don't think most people are stupid, just lacking in the relevant information to make an informed choice.

[polichick]

71. And those who get their info from the msm...

...don't seem to be aware of the spin they're getting. It's only those who travel abroad a lot or do serious research online who have figured out that what's widely reported in the U.S. isn't close to the whole story.

[wyldwolf]

72. Where are these statisitics and where has what you assert been shown?

[groovedaddy]

91. Here are a few

1/3 of high school graduates never read another book for the rest of their lives.

42 percent of college graduates never read another book after college.

80 percent of U.S. families did not buy or read a book last year.

70 percent of U.S. adults have not been in a bookstore in the last five years.
http://www.jenkinsgroupinc.com/

______________

More Americans choose local television news as one of their top three sources for news than any
other form of traditional or new media, according to The Future of News Survey conducted for the
Radio and Television News Directors Foundation. A total of 65.5 percent named local television news,
compared with 28.4 percent who named local newspapers and 28.3 percent who named national network
television news. The Internet was one of the top three choices for 11.2 percent of those surveyed.
The study, conducted by Prof. Bob Papper at Ball State University, included a sample of 1,000 adults --
half under the age of 25. Only 3% said they read a blog daily; only 5% have watched news on a small
screen. Papper said 40% of the TV news directors thought small screen gizmo-viewing was common.
Source: Marketwatch

__________________________

Ball State University Middletown Media Studies 2 (Sept.26. 2005)

Here are the overall amounts of media minutes spent per user per day
according to the 5,000 hours of observations recorded by the project researchers:

Television: 240.9 minutes
Any computer use: 135.8 minutes
All Internet: 93.4 minutes
Radio: 80.0 minutes
Music : 65.1 minutes
Phone, includes cell: 42.2 minutes
All print media: 32.8 minutes
All video : 32.6 minutes
Newspapers: 12.2 minutes
Game console: 11.6 minutes
(Source: http://www.poynter.org/content/content_view.asp?id=89510)
_________________________

TV's Still The 'Greatest,' But Digital Technology Is Altering Media Preferences
By Joe Mandese
Editor, MediaPost http://www.mediapost.com/dtls_dsp_news.cfm?newsID=277407
Preferred Over All Others

TV 39%
Magazines 2%
Newspapers 8%
Internet 40%
Radio 4%
All Are Equal 12%
Source: InsightExpress. Base = 500 people surveyed online on Sept. 17, 2004.
The findings show that all other media - including magazines, newspapers and radio - pale in comparison with TV and the Internet.

[wyldwolf]

115. how does that show liberals and "progressives" are better educated?

Further, this has WHAT to do with Centrists?

[groovedaddy]

118. What or who is a "Centrist"?

Really - I haven't seen a definition yet.

[polichick]

13. Good point...

I think that's a huge problem!

[wyldwolf]

14. what point? He asked a question.

[polichick]

16. Don't be a dolt...

The question of where people are getting their information IS the point. :)

[wyldwolf]

17. Stay on topic, dear. The point is politicians, not the electorate

Politicians like Clinton and Bayh get their info from many sources, as do centrist voters.

(We don't rely on conspiracy theories, unnamed sources, and truthiness that seeps from the blogosphere.) :)

[polichick]

22. No offense, but you seem too desperate to get one candidate elected...

...to be very engaging in a discussion. You can't seem to see anything without looking through your specially prescribed Hillary glasses.


(The electorate is ALWAYS more important than the politicians ~ especially on my threads.)

[wyldwolf]

24. no offense, but you seem offended I won't follow you through your twists and turns

[polichick]

27. No twists and turns...

Just sensibility.

No soup for you!

[wyldwolf]

28. all throughout your replies. You can't seem to stay on one subject.

:shrug:

Sorry.

[polichick]

30. Hate to shock you, but the "sensible center" isn't just about...

...one candidate. Try to remember that not EVERY thread has to be about your girl!

[wyldwolf]

33. but your thread was about candidates. So why did you want to divert from that direction?

[polichick]

36. "But is it really so sensible to keep hugging that center line???"

Here's the question I asked to launched the discussion ~ pretty open-ended.

[wyldwolf]

37. you're reference was "Evan Bayh said on MSNBC today that Senator Clinton is seeking out the..."

[polichick]

39. Yes, that was the intro...

But not the CRITICAL QUESTION ~ as a consummate thread derailer like you well knows.

Make yourself useful and go kiss Hillary's ass. Oh wait ~ that's what you're already doing! hardy har har

[wyldwolf]

41. Intros do typically set up the thread.

Make yourself useful and go fuck yourself. Oh wait ~ that's what you're already doing, seeing that's about all you can get. hardy har har

[polichick]

42. Oooooh, touchy!

You do your candidate no favors.

[wyldwolf]

43. That would be you.

[polichick]

46. Not so...

And you should know that I loved Hillary before joining DU, but her rude champions here have had an impact ~ you can't contribute to a thread without trying to derail it.

Now, back to whether or not it's sensible to hug that center line...

[wyldwolf]

49. totally so. You chose to toss two invectives my way before I responded. It usually only takes one

I didn't have to derail this thread. You did that yourself.

Now, back to whether or not it's sensible to hug that center line...

Which I answered in Post 2

[THUNDER HANDS]

18. hey, if people want more liberal candidates

the first step is to make more liberal babies.

Get the number of liberals in this country equal to the number of conservatives, and then we might start out on better footing.

[redqueen]

45. Seems like most liberals have given up entirely.

I have heard FAR too many young liberal thinkers telling me that both parties are corrupt with corpoarate money, it's a rigged game, so fuck it.

Oh well... guess the Dems will just have to move even FURTHER to the right to WIN!

[polichick]

50. I've heard the same thing from liberal college students...

That's partly why I think we'd have a better chance with a candidate who is very clearly different from the Republican corporate right ~ and that would not be a centrist.

[madfloridian]

19. Is the "sensible center" going to bomb Iran?

and stay in Iraq as an occupying force. I think they are.

[wyldwolf]

20. before you switch off your crystal ball, get those winning lottery numbers for me, ok?

[polichick]

53. Typical Republican put-down response. nt

[wyldwolf]

54. typical "progressive" 'avoid the subject' reaction

[polichick]

55. The subject was Iran...

Seemed to me you were trying to change the subject ~ and, considering how hawkish your candidate is on that front, it's not hard to see why. But it would be nice if you'd let people discuss without your desperate diversions.

[wyldwolf]

56. of which Madfloridian made a "prediction." Hence, the Crystal Ball

See, when someone states something definitively that they cannot possibly prove, they're either nuts or have some sixth sense.

[polichick]

60. Like when you insist that Hillary will get the nomination??

Give me a break.

[wyldwolf]

64. Care to quote me ever insisting that. You give ME a break (snicker!)

[polichick]

25. It sure does look like that's the plan...

Very sensible indeed!

[madfloridian]

26. Yes, it does.

It is amazing, but I think they will.

[polichick]

69. Supposedly Bush and Cheney are determined to bomb Iran...

...and, with the Israel lobby as strong as it is in Congress, it's very likely ~ and stupid beyond words!

[Elidor]

21. The Senseless Center

Those who believe it's okay to leave open the possibility of leaving 100,000+ troops in Iraq for the foreseeable future.

Those who believe military strikes on yet another country which has not attacked us should not be taken off the table.

Those who believe that health care plans written in close consultation with insurance lobbyists are the best we can do so we'd better shut up and take what we can get.

Those who believe that candidates who stand with the corporate class against the economic and social interests of the middle class are good democrats, and if they aren't - well, they're better than Bush so just shut up.

Those who believe that anyone who is passionate about gay rights, safe food and water, clean air, workplace safety, and ending the war NOW is a loony leftie and needs to shut up before they cost us the next election.

I haven't seen anything sensible about these so-called centrists. They'd still be shoving Holy Joe down our throats if he hadn't created his own political party. I think they're a bunch of fucking idiots.

[GreenPartyVoter]

23. So true

[polichick]

31. Exactly!

I don't think most people are centrists at all ~ it's a snow job by those invested in the status quo!

[riqster]

48. You do not understand Centrists, that is plain.

You have a cartoon-level, two-dimensional grasp of the concept. (To be fair, many Centrists have the same grasp of folks at the wings. America has really turned into an asshole contest in terms of political discourse.)

NEWS FLASH- the MAJORITY of Americans are in the Center. Sneering at them, misrepresenting their positions will not get a liberal elected. Because, your biggest error is: assuming that Centrists are any happier with their elected representatives than those at the political poles. You think Zack Space is liberal enough for me? Hell, no. But the alternative was Joy Padgett, who's even dumber and more corrupt than Bob Ney. We all eat at the same two-item buffet, and it's the only place in town to eat.

Most of the voters in the Center do not agree with the statements above; I would categorize them as right-wing, not Centrist. I suggest you gain a more nuanced understanding of what you write about.

[redqueen]

95. What makes you think the majority of Americans are in the center?

:shrug:

I think it's BULLSHIT 'conventional wisdom', a manufactured myth, used to keep us moving to the right, as we have been moving for decades.

[riqster]

101. Labels can be moved without their objects following suit

My opinions haven't moved rightwards since at least 1980-in fact, they have been going leftwards at an accelerating rate, especially since 2001 showed the Right's bestial nature more clearly than ever before. Among the Centrists of my personal acquaintance, that is a common trait. (Please note-these are thoughtful, informed voters of whom I speak, not couch-potato, uninformed sheep.)

Politicos have been moving rightwards and calling themselves 'Centrists', but they do not represent me or any other Centrist I know.

As to quantity, it depends on where you draw the lines, doesn't it? Poll questions are rather vague on the topic, so asking people whether they are Left, Right or Center is of questionable value. It's better to see who gets elected.

As I said before, few of us get to vote for the candidate we want-we pick the one we hate the least. I will be voting Kucinich in the Primary, and will actually enjoy casting the vote: but it's a rare experience, that. I would say that the MSM pushes rabid right-wingers, and there are a fair few in Dizzy City, but not that many. Not even that many rabid left-wingers are in office, because they are not treated fairly by the media: and in Ohio, at least, they are a rare bird indeed.

The point is this: most elected officials tend to hang out in the middle (leftish or rightish, but still not at the poles) because they get the most votes that way. And the only way they get the most votes is by getting the most voters (election fraud beneficiaries tend to be hard-right, so we may eliminate them from this point) and that tells you that most Americans are Centrists. If we were a nation of radicals, you'd see more radicals in office.

[redqueen]

103. It's not better to see who gets elected, IMO, because there are

hardly any true liberals willing to even bother, what with the state of things in our pay-to-play political system.

IMO it's better to look at stances on issues. Issues like gay marriage would tend to indicate that you're right, that most americans are centrists... however on issues like getting out of iraq, ending the drug war, getting out of NAFTA and the WTO... it becomes clear that many (most?) of Kucinich's positions are really in line with the mainstream.

That's why I'm sick and tired of being all this centrist BS. IMO is pure propaganda, and not the kind that is designed to influence anyone to drift leftward.

[riqster]

105. Look at the entire name: "Sensible Center"

To me, DK is a very sensible man. So am I, most of the time. So are most Centrists, in fact all of the ones I know.

Rabid Right- and Left-wingers want to trash our system and build a new one, heedless of all the trauma that would result, especially to society's most vulnerable members: they are full of aphorisms about breaking eggs to make omelets and such. Revolutions always injure the poor, helpless, young and infirm, and sensible people see that and advocate a more measured approach.

Which pisses off the peeps at both extremes something awful. I have come to take their foaming mouths as a sign that I am on the right track. :-)

[redqueen]

108. Hahaha... okay, I get ya...

:hi:

[riqster]

106. Doh! Duplicate.

[riqster]

107. As to who gets elected

You make a fair point-it isn't just the MSM that rigs the game against those on the left.

[SaveElmer]

29. It's where most voters are...

And where most solutions lie...

[polichick]

32. It's where we're told most voters are...

See #21

[wyldwolf]

34. it's where most voters are

[tulip]

68. yep!

[redqueen]

96. What makes you think so?

[Elidor]

65. A nice feel-good, fact-free assertion with nothing to back it up

You do talking points very well, Elmer.

[nealmhughes]

38. Might the "Sensible Center" be cognate with the "Motionless Middle?"

One might well argue the same . . .

[polichick]

40. Yep...

Or maintain the status quo.

[redqueen]

44. IMO the "sensible center" is a MYTH.

BOTH of these parties have been pushing us further and further towards corporatocracy.

[polichick]

47. "corporatocracy"

Good word for the new center ~ I'm thinking more and more that we need somebody who can really shake it up!

[WCGreen]

51. All I know is that sensible shoes are a lot more comfortable than

come fuck me pumps....

[polichick]

52. Right now I'd say that Republican Lite Dems are the ones wearing the pumps...

Hell, they'll even line up to get fucked for free ~ voting with the Reps with no legislative cooperation in return!

[redqueen]

97. Who gives a shit about legislative cooperation, when you can get $$$$?

[slackmaster]

57. Staking a claim on sensibility implies that those who disagree with you are not sensible

It really doesn't advance the dialogue.

[polichick]

62. Someone needs to tell that to Evan Bayh...

He did sound sincere in claiming that Clinton was seeking the "sensible center" on MSNBC today ~ and then he was asked if he was aiming for veep.

[Carrieyazel]

58. Sorry Evan, Hillary will end up just like your Dad, an early frontrunner who flamed out.

I know you thought that Birch was going to be the nominee back in 1976, right??? Didn't happen. Putting your lot behind Hillary is a bad move on your part. And a big problem here is that most Repukes and many Independents don't consider Hillary as part of the "sensible" anything. And many Dems consider her a "betray us", for standing with Shrub on foreign policy.

[wyldwolf]

59. want to make a bet on that?

[Carrieyazel]

63. History isn't on Hillary's side, though. Early frontrunners on the Dem side who are not incumbents

don't have a clear path to the nomination. You may believe Hillary is a foregone conclusion, but that would mean she gets a clear path. I can't see that happening. Hasn't happened since JFK, and he almost didn't take office.

[wyldwolf]

66. well, as Obama's people are fond of saying...

Hillary is a quasi-incumbent. And there are a lot of other things that don't fit historically in this campaign.

Now, to my question: Would you care to make a bet? How about $25. to the charity of yours or my choice for the winner?

[Carrieyazel]

67. Not right now, but I may want to make a bet in the coming weeks

I want to see how the race plays out in this crucial period.

[antigop]

73. Debunking "Centrism" -- read, learn, understand

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050103/sirota
>.
Is this really true? Is a corporate agenda really "centrism"? Or is it only "centrist" among Washington's media elite, influence peddlers and out-of-touch political class?
>>

[polichick]

74. Perhaps it should be called the "Sell-Out Center" nt

[antigop]

76. Yep. n/t

[wyldwolf]

75. Debunking "Debunking Centrism" - Read, Learn, Understand

It seems to me that David Sirota's latest attack on the DLC and other "centrists" is in need of a response... the problem is that he's gone off and created a straw man here, attacking the nefarious DLC for positions it doesn't hold.

Sirota's attacks are growing increasingly vitriolic and wind up having increasingly little to do with the actually existing DLC and its real merits and flaws.

http://yglesias.typepad.com/matthew/2004/12/debunking_debun.html

I can think of a million better things for Democrats to engage in this political off-season, but allow me to highlight what a complete horses-ass David Sirota is. Since he wishes to engage in not a mere crank on the DLC, I think it's incumbent upon me to inflict as much damage as possible...

http://www.gregsopinion.com/archives/005332.html

[antigop]

77. HA! "latest attack?" HA! HA! It's from December, 2004! N/T

[wyldwolf]

78. HA! So was the article you posted!!

[antigop]

79. EXACTLY! That's what I was referring to! Sorry you didn't get it. n/t

[wyldwolf]

80. I did get it. You posted a 3 year old article and found it funny I posted a 3 year old rebuttal.

[antigop]

82. NOPE. Nice try. You still don't get it. n/t

[wyldwolf]

84. no, sorry. That's exactly it. You posted 3 year old lie-infested typical Sirota piece...

..and you somehow thought it was funny I posted two pieces from the same time period that debunked it.

[antigop]

85. HA! HA! You are too funny! n/t

[wyldwolf]

86. I'm also completely correct.

[antigop]

116. No, you still don't get it -- that's what's so funny! n/t

[redqueen]

98. Yup, Yglesias was another who backed war with Iraq.

Them centrists is so smrt!

[wyldwolf]

111. which doesn't alter the fact he debunked Sirota's lies in the "Centrism" article

[redqueen]

112. True enough... just pointing out that he's a bit of an idiot.

;)

:hi:

[wyldwolf]

113. But at least he's an honest one.

[riqster]

117. The article says what I and others have said:

These allegedly 'centrist' politicos are nothing of the sort. They are to the right of center.

But then, that's not unusual in these times. 'Conservatism' as practiced now is antithetical to its definition: a unelected fraud is called 'President'; 'Fundamentalists' of all stripes are nothing of the sort. More people should re-read Orwell's 1984 and see again how allowing the redefining (or perverting) of key words and phrases can have disastrous consequences for a free society.

To address the DLC-"I am a Centrist, I work with Centrists, and you, sirs, are NOT Centrists"!

[Armstead]

81. Was Iraq sensible? Shipping the economy overseas? Etc.

Get a fricking clue Evan.

Better yet, go back over your father's record when he was in the Senate.

[antigop]

83. Be sure to see post #73.... n/t

[antigop]

87. Behind the DLC Takeover --Democratic Leadership Council

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1295/is_10_64/ai_65952690

>>
This is not some fantastic political thriller starring Harrison Ford or Sharon Stone. This is the real-life version of Invasion of the Party Snatchers--with the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) burrowing into the pod that is the Democratic Party.
>>

[wyldwolf]

88. the very first paragraph of that piece states Al Gore infiltrated the Democratic party

:rofl:

At the national convention of a major political party, an ideologically rigid sectarian clique secures the ultimate triumph. It inserts two of its own as nominees for the Presidency and the Vice Presidency.

No. Al Gore WON the Democratic nomination by way of getting the most votes. He wasn't "inserted." :rofl:

Founded in the mid-1980s with essentially the same purpose as the Christian Coalition--to pull a broad political party dramatically to the right-

ANOTHER :rofl: The DLC was founded to pull the party back towards the center from the far left perch it had inhabited since George McGovern lost an electoral landslide.

And they found willing corporate allies, in corporate America, who provided the money needed to make a theory appear to be a movement.

No, they borrowed the DNC's list of corporate backers (via the Democratic Business Council), a list Howard Dean still works today.

John Nichols - what a clown!

[antigop]

89. Too bad-- so sad. Many on DU know about the DLC. n/t

[wyldwolf]

90. too bad so sad for them, then, that they get such distorted information. Hey...

... go to any Democratic party meeting and spout this trash. THEN rattle off the list of those in the DLC they're supposed to deplore.

Start with Bill and Hillary Clinton. Move on to John Kerry. Mention former senators Max Cleland, John Edwards, and Sam Nunn.

By now, the crowd at the meeting will be staring at you like you have a few screws loose.

You rattle off all 16 new House members just elected. All new DLC members. All the enemy.

And you'll suddenly realize the room is laughing at you hysterically. So you'll do something goofy like thrust your fist in the air and say something revolutionary. They'll laugh harder. You'll be confused. After all, the netroots told you Democrats hate the DLC!

So you do something else goofy like unzip your jacket and reveal your black Che shirt, as though that will bolster your “progressive” credentials. By now the party chair is approaching to usher you off the stage, all the while explaining to the crowd that he did not mean to hire a comedian as a speaker.

So off you go, back to Democratic Underground, where you immediately declare the Democrats at that meeting the enemy, also.

[antigop]

92. Your slip is showing...and do you need to check your blood pressure? n/t

[wyldwolf]

94. Hey, tell us how Al Gore infiltrated the Democratic party... (snicker)

[antigop]

93. Hey folks, I gotta go...I'm not paid to post on DU all day..got work to do n/t

[OHdem10]

99. Since Biden and many other Democrats have voted

CenterRIGHT--Is he willing to move left in order to get to
the Center.

The last 6 years the GOP while in charge ran a CENTERRIGT
Government and the Democrats affirmed it daily.

Does he mean it when he says HRC will move to the Center.
They can only move left in order to get there??

[Sparkly]

100. I heard that and cringed.

Mark Warner used that phrase a lot, and I never could stand it.

If they mean "center," fine -- just say "center." (The labels don't mean much anyway!)

But "sensible" implies that there are others who are not as "sensible," or maybe even that some other centrists aren't as sensible, or whatever. I just think that it creates division from a stance that's probably intended to bring more people in.

Or, I'm hypersensitive! :yoiks:

[wyldwolf]

102. Remember - Warner and Kaine were running in a Red state...

..by saying "sensible center," the implication was the GOP powers in VA were not sensible. You know as well as I do anyone to the left of Warner/Kaine were non-players in VA during that time. I'm sure their reference was a message to swing voters who are suspect of both the left and right.

[Sparkly]

104. That's a point.

:hi:

[ProudDad]

109. "sensible center" is an Oxymoron

"The only thing in the center of the road is yellow lines and dead armadillos" Jim Hightower...

[IndianaJones]

110. thats where most of us are. nt.

[Hippo_Tron]

114. Depends on the issue...

For example, agriculture subsidies going to giant farm corporations is not sensible in the least bit but all of our politicians will support it.

Locking people up for possession of marijuana is also not sensible.

IMO, sensible positions are all over the political spectrum yet we have a tendency to elect politicians that do things that are not sensible.

[PDittie]

120. "There's nothing in the middle of the road but

yellow lines and dead armadillos." -- Jim Hightower