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Hagel: The GOP "has won two elections on fear and terrorism. It's going to try again."

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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:06 AM
Original message
Hagel: The GOP "has won two elections on fear and terrorism. It's going to try again."
LAT: Closing Guantanamo lockup looks increasingly unlikely
As the 2008 elections approach, many in the GOP are seizing on the detention unit as a get-tough issue.
By Noam N. Levey, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 24, 2007

WASHINGTON — A lightning rod for international criticism, the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, not long ago appeared headed for closure. President Bush and his top advisors said they wanted to shutter the controversial lockup. But the latest attempt to shut it down is facing collapse: The detention facility has been embraced by many Republicans as a potent political symbol in their quest to seize the terrorism issue ahead of next year's elections.

GOP presidential candidates have jockeyed to demonstrate their support for the prison. One candidate has called for doubling its use. Another praised the menu and health plan offered to detainees.

The Senate Republican leader has accused Democrats of wanting to move terrorists "into American communities." And the president, who last year told German television that he "would like to end Guantanamo," is now threatening to veto any move to "micromanage the detention of enemy combatants."

"It's a Republican litmus test this year," complained Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel, one of the few GOP lawmakers calling for the swift closure of Guantanamo. "The Republican Party has won two elections on the issue of fear and terrorism," Hagel said. "(It's) going to try again."...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gitmo24sep24,0,3276008.story?coll=la-home-center
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'll give Hagel one thing -- he knows how to piss off the Republican old guard.
Edited on Mon Sep-24-07 09:08 AM by Old Crusoe
Just the same, I sure would like his seat to go blue in 08.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. What's he got to lose?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yep. Hagel must have looked around and saw a rout coming, with his
party going down for the count in its present form.

It's going to be interesting to see what he's up to next.
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. Yep
I hope he does not go back to make some more money or that I will not see him as a commentator on Fox (or anywhere else for that matter). It would be disappointing.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Nothing anymore. But that's partially because he's been saying stuff like this
for years and thereby made himself unwelcome in the power centers of the Republican Party. Hagel makes more sense on foreign policy than almost anyone else in his party, which is why he is no longer very welcome in it. I have other issues with Hagel but I do recognize that he was never one who stood in line to curry favor with Karl Rove.
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Hagel makes more sense on foreign policy
than ALMOST anyone in EITHER party
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. unfortunately you are right about that one
I realize that he is a staunch conservative and actually quite right-wing in the over all picture. But he does indeed make more sense than most of his colleagues in either party.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. He pisses off the new Republican old guard
I bet the old Republican old guard agrees with him a lot more than some of them are willing to say out loud. I'll give Hagel this, he's not afraid to speak his mind, at least compared to most elected officials in the Republican party who all marched over the cliff following Bush and Rove.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Hi, Tom. Yes. Your version is better.
Also really like "...who all marched over the cliff following Bush and Rove."

A perfect synopsis.
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Actually
I think that Hagel himself said that the R party has been driven right off the cliff in the recent Maher interview. If I remember correctly it was in the context of incompetence, but still...
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. I think it's CYA time; they want Mukasey confirmed:
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Oh, boy -- "signals support for torture." Thanks for that link. nt
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. What does CYA stand for? n/t
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Cover your ass, meaning theirs. nt
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Thanks :-)
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
9. Idiots will believe this: Republican leader has accused Democrats of wanting to move terrorists "int
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
13. I don't get Lame-Duck Chuck. He obviously has very strong convictions, and
he knows his party is pretty much wrong and evil, but he won't run for re-election or President, and he won't leave the GOP--he's just getting out of politics. What good does that do? He'll make a great pundit for CNN or MSNBC, I guess.
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Funny...
I just finished typing a post saying that I hope NOT to see him as a news pundit anywhere, when the page refreshed I see your message :-).

Did you see Hagel on CNN yesterday? Not a very inspiring interview overall... I got the feeling that he hopes that the political landscape will change significantly in the next few years and that he's thinking 2012. He is young enough to do that. If that's the case, I guess he realizes that as an independent he does not stand a chance in hell, and I doubt he will go D (if he does, he still does not stand a chance). Also, if he indeed thinks this way, being out of the Senate may be a good thing, depending of what he will do in the meantime of course. Anyway... idle speculations :-)
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. I saw most of that interview--on one hand, he seems honest, so
I take him at face value when he says he is getting out of politics, but on the other hand, he talks up Michael Bloomberg, and I can't help but suspect that there is a plot between the two of them to run next winter--he has a book coming out in January (Hagel, that is). Supposedly it is not an autobiography, but lays out his vision on foreign policy, trade, the economy, etc. Now, why do that, if you aren't running for anything? Hmmm. I thought it was a really good interview, though--I liked that he said that Iraq can't be framed as a win-lose issue, and that it's not a prize for us (I'm guessing he means the oil). He's trying to get the GOP (and McCain) to stop talking in terms of victory and defeat. Important points, but they'd carry more weight if he didn't take himself out of the fight--he's truly the last sane Republican (and no, I don't consider Ron Paul to be especially sane).
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. He was good (as usual) on Iraq
he got on my nerves when he said that all R candidates are his friends or something like that... maybe there was a subtle sarcasm there that I did not get or I am just too picky :-). Did he say he is "getting out of politics" or just that he does not intend to run for anything next year? Not the same thing. And I definitely agree with your last point, by setting himself as a lame duck, the impact of what he says and his ability to make a difference with some of his less esteemed of his colleagues has decreased significantly, a fact that I am sure he is fully aware of. Unless of course they think that there may be something else of importance possibly looming in his future... speculation again.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Yeah--I don't believe for a second that he is buddies with Rudy or Romney--
maybe he's just trying to be polite, I don't know. Every time we see him on TV, though, my husband and I always agree that he would have run away with the general election, if he was the R nominee. Aside from the fact that he is well-spoken, I don't know if it's his voice, or looks, or mannerisms, or what--but for whatever reason, he always comes off as very impressive and presidential. He makes you want to listen to what he has to say. That's why I wonder if he's being considered for a political-analyst or pundit job after next year, like Wes Clark is doing for MSNBC (who is another one who comes off very well on TV).
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. I agree at least to the extent that...
he would have had much better chances than any in the current (pathetic) field. But given the amazing craziness that seems to still keep the Rs engulfed in some bizarro world, his chances of winning the nomination seem to have been close to zero. It defies common sense, but...
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
39. He also knows who butters his bread, whatever his personal beliefs
Now he's going to declare victory and leave the senate, soon to return as a well-paid lobbyist and/or rightwing think-tank VIP.

Barring some unforeseen mishap, we will not have seen the last of Chucky in 2009.
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satya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
16. His voting machine co. "won" it for them, is he trying to tell us they're going to steal another?
If You Want To Win An Election, Just Control The Voting Machines,Thom Hartmann, January 31, 2003

<snip>

Back when Hagel first ran there for the U.S. Senate in 1996, his company's computer-controlled voting machines showed he'd won stunning upsets in both the primaries and the general election. The Washington Post (1/13/1997) said Hagel's "Senate victory against an incumbent Democratic governor was the major Republican upset in the November election."

<snip>
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
17. . We must not discount the possibility that the Republicans could win the White House in 2008
Edited on Mon Sep-24-07 09:48 AM by Douglas Carpenter
using exactly these same old Orwellian tactics.

We must not discount the possibility that Rudolph Giuliani could win --someone far, far more extreme on exactly these issues than Bush/Cheney and far, far, far more dangerous than Bush/Cheney. And many people could likely vote for him not realizing that they are voting for an extremist nut. Many might actually believe they are voting for a moderate or even liberal Republican.

Fear is a great motivator.

It would be a tragic mistake for the Democrats to fantasize for one single second that they can win by out neoconing the neocons. That will not and cannot work. That strategy is doomed to failure from the start. For one thing the public will NOT buy it. And for another thing -- the vast majority of Democrats do NOT believe it.

ONLY an alternative vision of an America with justice and prosperity at home and at peace with the world has any chance of prevailing against the same old tired and tedious message of terrorist under the bed and the necessity for curtailed civil liberties and endless and intractable forever war.

"Oceania is at war with Asia. Oceania has always been at war with Asia."
-- George Orwell

.
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Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
23. Correction:GOP "has (stolen) two elections (thru Diebold & ES&S.) It's going to try again."
And unless we pass federal legislation (like Holt, though amended) to mandate a voter-verified paper ballot AND mandatory random audits in ALL federal elections, it will be easier for them to steal another election than it was the last two times.

Paper ballots -- not vapor ballots.

Vote free or Diebold.

Give me librium or give me meth. (Oops -- wrong forum).
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
25. The Republican Party has NOT "won two elections." Hagel should know this--
since his baby, ES&S (Diebold's evil twin)has been 'counting' our votes with "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY programming code, and virtually no audit/recount controls.

In fact, that's how Hagel himself "won" his first (s)election.

The GOP doesn't "win" elections. It writes plausible narratives for STOLEN elections, which are then spun across America by the war profiteering corporate news monopolies.

We have been so shuckin jived. Really, friends. Trust NO ONE!
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. No, it's not how Hagel won his first election. Ask most Nebraskans--
as far as Nebraska is concerned, he won it fair and square.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. "as far as Nebraska is concerned"
Um...Most people don't know about rigged voting machines. People here on DU are not like the regular population. Most Americans still naively assume that their vote will be counted correctly, or counted at all, and that problems with voting are limited to those stupid people in Florida who don't know how to vote...
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Um...are you saying Nebraskans are stupid or misinformed?
The only people who believe Hagel stole his election (or elections, he's been accused of fraud in both) are internet-rumor conspiracy theorists and their followers, from OUTSIDE Nebraska. Ben Nelson, who is a mortal enemy of Hagel, was the Governor of Nebraska when he lost to Hagel--who better to demand a recount or investigation into a suspicious election result? Well, no one here really believed Hagel's win was suspicious, despite his connections to ES&S. How would Oregonians feel about constant rumors, pushed from OUTSIDE the state, challenging the validity of Wyden's election? You'd think, this is a matter for the people of Oregon to worry about, wouldn't you? Well, the people of Nebraska have obviously decided not to worry about it. In fact, they re-elected Chuck. So, what we have is no proof of wrongdoing, and no real issue, other than internet suspicions.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. I'm not saying Nebraskans specifically are misinformed ...
I'm saying the U.S. public in general -- Nebraska included -- has no idea of the scope of the vote rigging, etc.

"In 1996, Hagel became the first elected Republican Nebraska senator in 24 years when he did surprisingly well in an election where the votes were verified by the company he served as chairman and maintained a financial investment. In both the 1996 and 2002 elections, Hagel’s ES&S counted an estimated 80% of his winning votes. Due to the contracting out of services, confidentiality agreements between the State of Nebraska and the company kept this matter out of the public eye. Hagel’s first election victory was described as a 'stunning upset' by one Nebraska newspaper."

What makes you so confident his getting elected WASN'T a result of direct intervention by ES&S?
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. There's absolutely no suspiscion in Nebraska about either of his elections--none. He was
reprimanded by the Senate Ethics committee after his first election for not disclosing the ties to ES&S, but there was no charge that he "stole" anything, until 2002, when Hagel's fringey-goofball opponent, Charlie Matulka, raised the ES&S connection again, which is when the rumors started in earnest. Nothing ever came of it, and that was that, but it's still being circulated around the internet, even though the guy's Senate career is almost over after 11 years. One would think that if an election was valid enough for Nebraska, then it's good enough for the rest of the country, but I guess not.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Omaha is the HEADQUARTERS of ES&S. You don't think they have that
disinformation venue covered?
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. LOL! Yeah, we Nebraskans are SOOOO stupid and gullible. Please take
Edited on Mon Sep-24-07 12:13 PM by wienerdoggie
your conspiracy tripe somehwere else. Worry about Dianne Feinstien and her defense-contractor misdeeds, why don't you? We're fine with Hagel.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. A major problems caused by conspiracy theory is demonstrated on this thread
Conspiracy theory defects from rational, factually based and intelligent discussion and analysis.

The subject of the OP is how fear is used to manipulate the public into voting a certain way. This is a serious subject that requires serious thought and serious discussion. That would be rational analysis. Unfortunately some people find it easier to fly away into fantasy land.

Another harmful effect of conspiracy theory is that when real shenanigans do really occur - credible attempts to raise the issue have already been marginalized as conspiracy theory. There is no doubt that real monkey business did occur in Florida in 2000. There were certainly improprieties in Ohio in 2004. But these credible reports of genuine occurrences are marginalized all the easier because of the "boy crying wolf" effect of conspiracy theory.

In the past conspiracy theory was almost always the domain of the right-wing fringe. Sadly some on the left have taken up this nonsense. Some even mistakenly believe that there is something "left-wing" about supporting a conspiracy theory worldview. When in actuality there could be nothing more right-wing than conspiracy theory thinking. The whole idea of seeing the world divided between absolute good versus absolute evil with secret cabals of evil men consciously conspiring their sinister agenda is a distinctly right-wing worldview. The whole premise of a "left" analysis is to examine social forces, economic interest and class structures to determine their influence on how power is administered. This is institutional analysis and a lot more complex than secret cabals of evil men.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Agree--you raise valid points. When we cry wolf for improbable or
disproven theories and rumors, we risk losing focus and credibility on REAL issues.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Any election run by private corporations using "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY programming
code, with virtually no audit/recount controls, is not an election. It is tyranny.

Add the rightwing political connections of ES&S, Diebold and Sequoia, and you'd be a fool to trust their results.

And that's even BEFORE you look at the evidence that specific elections were stolen.

This is not a "conspiracy theory." This is common sense.

And I would have to say that anybody who ACCEPTS the results of elections, under these conditions, has been very successfully propagandized.

When a political establishment acts to hide the manner in which votes are counted, and fast-tracks a fraudulent election SYSTEM all over the country (along with prosecuting an unjust, heinous war), they are setting up a situation in which anyone who cries foul cannot obtain slamdunk evidence that the election was stolen, because the "evidence"--the votes and how they were "counted"--is hidden away and unobtainable. The "votes" have become manipulable electrons. The "counting" is done with "trade secret" code--code so secret that not even our secretaries of state are permitted to review it. That's no. 1: the system is fraudulent on its face. It was furthermore achieved by filthy, unregulated lobbying of federal, state and local officials, eager to have that $3.9 electronic voting boondoggle from the Anthrax Congress run through their fingers. Money is power. Greed itself kills accountability and transparency, and does not care if our democracy is fucked into the bargain.

THEN--if you have any sense--you look at inferential evidence concerning elections conducted under these conditions, for instance, the fact that grass roots Democrats blew the Bushites away in new voter registration, nearly 60/40, in 2004 (where did all those votes go?), combined with the lame Rove/Cheney "explanation" of how they "won" (their GOTV "in the churches"--there is no evidence of the success of any such an effort); or, the exit polls and how and why the consortium of war profiteering corporate news monopolies who conducted the exit polls, using one exit pollster, CHANGED the polls (Kerry won), late on election day, 11/2/04, to force them to FIT the results of Diebold/ES&S secret formulae (Bush won)--an extremely suspicious circumstance; or the fact that Bush's numbers were falling at the time of the election (and Kerry's were rising)--Bush/Cheney did NOT have the oomph to overcome Democratic registration numbers combined with declining numbers which hit 49% on the very day of their second inauguration (unprecedented!) and have been sinking like the Titanic ever since.

I won't go into all the evidence here. I think it is an overwhelming case for fraud--and WRONG results in several elections--starting in 2002 in GA--the first all-Diebold state--where a 15 point lead for Cleland was reversed on election day, amidst a Rovian narrative that the TV ads questioning this paraplegic vet's patriotism were successful. That was nonsense. What was successful was Diebold's "trade secret" code in an all-electronic voting system that didn't even have the possibility of a recount (no paper trail whatsoever). And consider who was in charge--yet another corrupt state elections head, Cathy Cox, who did sales brochures for Diebold! How vigilant is that?

GA/Cleland was a test of the system, for foolproof election theft. The thing then spread like a cancer (via the $3.9 million boondoggle) all over the country, in two years time, so that, in 2004, EIGHTY PERCENT of the nation's votes were "counted" by private, rightwing Bushite corporations, using "trade secret" code, with ZERO audits in many cases, and very inadequate 1% audits in others.

I've gone back and forth about whether the voter purges and blatant vote suppression against black voters in Ohio (and some other places) was a distraction--a deliberate Rove tactic to distract from the fraudulent vote counting system all over the country--or was necessary to defeat an overwhelming nationwide vote to oust Bush/Cheney, in which the voters were outvoting the machines (which likely have to be pre-programmed to certain percentages of vote theft). I tend toward the latter theory--that Kerry won by a landslide, and that the highly corrupt Republican political machine that had been put in place in Ohio (Kenneth Blackwell et al) had to be utilized, in COMBINATION with stealing--disappearing or switching--votes all over the country, to produce a Bush/Cheney "win." Another possibility is that the old "dirty tricks" pols like Rove simply didn't trust the promises of the new fascist techies that the "trade secret" code with no audit would be sufficient--and created the Ohio vote suppression machine just in case, and triggered it just before and during the election, as a failsafe plan, or (another possibility) that Rove simply enjoyed stomping on black voters, and did it gratuitously, because he COULD.

Ohio was a clever business (for all its bludgeon appearances), because it in fact did become the focus of the few Democratic politicians who bothered about the blatant fraud in 2004 (Conyers, Boxer and a few others). And the "trade secret" code just rode under the radar of most Americans, where it still remains.

It is hella convenient now for Democratic leaders who won't challenge this privatized vote counting system, out of fear or collusion, to lament Ohio and pity those poor black voters who were disenfranchised, while ignoring--nay, actively helping to cover up--the disenfranchisement of the whole country. Suppression of black voters, of course, violates EXISTING law--the Voting Rights Act of 1965--and that there has been no accountability for THAT is a symptom of who's still in charge in the White House (and in Congress). But to disenfranchise EVERYBODY took a new act of Congress--the so-called "Help America Vote Act" of 2002--which failed to require ANY controls over this new voting system, run by rightwing Bushite corporations, and innumerable state laws permitting "trade secret" software with the public LOSING the right to review it, and any right to SEE their votes being counted.

The magnitude of this fascist coup--"trade secret" vote counting--needs to sink into our heads. It was enacted in the same month as the Iraq War Resolution, October 2002--at a time when 56% of the American people opposed the Iraq War. 56% is a significant majority. It would be a landslide in a presidential election (and believe me, it was). The IWR guaranteed unjust war; HAVA provided the means to shove that unjust war down the throats of the American people. You may not have noticed that 56% against the war, back then. But our political establishment surely noted it, and took measures to deal with it. It was to defeat that great, peace-minded, justice-minded American anti-war MAJORITY--which has now grown to an overwhelming, epoch-making SEVENTY PERCENT--that the "Help America Vote Act" was passed. It was, in truth, the "Help America Vote for War" Act!

And every Democrat in the U.S. Senate (save two*) voted FOR it (HAVA). Talk about arm-twisting. Talk about fear. Talk about dirty politics and corruption. Talk about the "military-industrial" octopus and its need for oil, and its need for war. They betrayed the American people in that vote. They gave up on democracy in that vote. They have been the "Betray us" Congress ever since that vote. And now, virtually none of them can prove that they were actually elected. They are as illegitimate as the monsters in the White House.

Here are the corporations they handed our right to vote over to:

DIEBOLD: Until recently, headed by CEO Wally O'Dell, a Bush/Cheney campaign chair and major fundraiser (a Bush "Pioneer" right up there with Ken Lay), who promised, in writing, to "deliver Ohio's electoral votes to Bush/Cheney in 2004";

ES&S: A spinoff of Diebold (similar computer architecture) initially funded by rightwing billionaire nutball Howard Ahmanson, who also gave one million dollars to the extremist 'christian' Chalcedon foundation (which touts the death penalty for homosexuals, among other things);

SEQUOIA: The third election theft player--which printed the punchcard ballots in Democratic areas of Florida in 2000 on inferior paper, to guarantee "hanging chads" (see Dan Rather's "The Trouble with Touchscreens"), and which employs former CA secretary of state, Bill Jones, and his chief aide, Alfie Charles, to peddle their machines--in an egregious case of "revolving door" employment. (Jones and Charles wrote the book on "trade secret" code voting systems and loss of public oversight of vote counting.)

These are the people who "counted" 80% of the nation's votes in 2004, under a veil of corporate secrecy. And they're STILL "counting" our votes. That's how we have ended up with SEVENTY PERCENT of the American people opposed to the Iraq War and wanting it ended, and a Congress that is doing the exact opposite. You do the math.

------------------------------------


*(Surprise, surprise! The two "no" votes, on destroying American democracy with "trade secret" vote counting, were Hillary Clinton and her NY compadre Charles Schumer. But before you get any ideas that Clinton/Schumer have any fondness for democracy, consider that NY voters are very attached to their old, reliable, and virtually unriggable lever voting machines, and this likely accounts for Clinton/Schumer's "no" vote, which they could cast in the confidence that HAVA was going to pass. Neither has SAID anything about the blatant non-transparency and riggability of e-voting, nor about the inadvisability of having rightwing Bushite corporations "counting" all our votes with "trade secret" code. And their records are otherwise very pro-corporate and pro-war. Their "no" votes were likely a reflection of this local NY issue--the lever machines. Still, it's one of the very few positive things I know about Hillary Clinton.)
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Speaking in the abstract here
There is nothing logically to rule out the possibility that someone who has the technical capacity to steal an election could not also win that election fair and square by actually appealing to more real voters than his or her opponent - without using trickery to secure the necessary margin for victory. You need to at least consider that scenario in the full range of options.

Seems I remember from Kerry/Bush in 2004 that some of the most questionable emachine returns manifested after early indications showed Bush losing various key districts etc. Even accepting the e-fraud theory as proven for the moment, had Bush legitimately been a popular candidate, the Republicans might not have risked exposing their "secret weapon" to scrutiny if it were not needed to win that contest.
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. I also heard....
... that Hagel is a member of Skull & Bones. Yeah, I know, he di dnot go to Yale, but I read on the Internet that somehow he was made a honorary member. Anybody has some more info on this?
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
40. the Rovian wedge issue -- fear and homophobia
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
41. It won't work, because people now fear the Republican Party more than anything else in the world.
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 12:00 PM by Perry Logan
And rightly so.
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