How many Dean supporters are now embracing Edwards?

[WilliamPitt]

Sound off.

While you're at it, explain this: Dennis Kucinich got savaged by Dean supporters here for teaming up with 'Voted For The War' Edwards in Iowa. I'd be interested in hearing from Dean supporters who dunned Dennis for that, to hear an explanation for why it was bad for Dennis to team with Edwards then, but is OK for Dean supporters to team with Edwards now.

On edit: I'll actually be surprised if those Dean folks who attacked Dennis then and are supporting Edwards now will come up with an honest answer...or maybe an apology to Dennis.

[Endangered Specie]

1. Definetly feeling his 'jive'

bc Dean is a dead duck for the pres race... But hes great for fundraising, Kerryd be fool not to take him into the admin.

[flpoljunkie]

90. Exit polling in Wisconsin shows even split Dean voters to Kerry & Edwards

http://nytimes.com/2004/02/18/politics/campaign/18ELEC.html?hp

A critical question now, some Democrats said, is whether Dr. Dean, who has not won a single contest, withdraws from the race and throws his support to Mr. Edwards or Mr. Kerry. A survey of voters leaving the polls found that those who said they had once intended to support Dr. Dean split evenly between Mr. Edwards and Mr. Kerry.

[SangamonTaylor]

2. I was a Dean supporter who embraced Edwards in late Dec/early Jan

Concerning the IWR, it may be that people liked his answer (and admiting that he bears responsibility for the war in Iraq) in the last WI debate.

[WilliamPitt]

3. He hadn't given that answer before Iowa

[DjTj]

56. I got that answer from Elizabeth Edwards in November

...in an e-mail dated November 20.

So I'm pretty sure that has been his answer for a long time, although I'm not going to spend time searching for old interviews.

[AP]

72. I confirm that too. Edwards has been very consistent with that answer.

In fact, Laura Knoy of NH Public Radio said on CSPAN that she thinks Edwards has been amazingly consistent throughout this campaign with all his answers.

Edwards knew who he was from early on, and what he is is perfect for this election and there is no reason to change it.

[HFishbine]

92. True -- Edwards is for the war 100%

And was saying so back in Oct., '03.
------------------------

MATTHEWS: <snip>

Let me ask but the war, because I know these are all students and a lot of guys the age of these students are fighting over there and cleaning up over there, and they’re doing the occupation.

Were we right to go to this war alone, basically without the Europeans behind us? Was that something we had to do?

EDWARDS: I think that we were right to go. I think we were right to go to the United Nations. I think we couldn’t let those who could veto in the Security Council hold us hostage.

And I think Saddam Hussein, being gone is good. Good for the American people, good for the security of that region of the world, and good for the Iraqi people.

MATTHEWS: If you think the decision, which was made by the president, when basically he saw the French weren’t with us and the Germans and the Russians weren’t with us, was he right to say, “We’re going anyway”?

EDWARDS: I stand behind my support of that, yes.

MATTHEWS: You believe in that?

EDWARDS: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about-Since you did support the resolution and you did support that ultimate solution to go into combat and to take over that government and occupy that country. Do you think that you, as a United States Senator, got the straight story from the Bush administration on this war? On the need for the war? Did you get the straight story?

EDWARDS: Well, the first thing I should say is I take responsibility for my vote. Period. And I did what I did based upon a belief, Chris, that Saddam Hussein’s potential for getting nuclear capability was what created the threat. That was always the focus of my concern. Still is the focus of my concern.

So did I get misled? No. I didn’t get misled.


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3131295/

[bearfartinthewoods]

119. and i give him kudos for that

especially since he hasn't tried to weasel out of his vote. stand up guy, who knows who he is and is willing to run on his record.

thank god he didn't stay in the senate long enough to get senatitis or whatever the condition is that turns bold men into wafflers.

[IndianaGreen]

4. The point is to stop Kerry

The only candidate left with a chance to do so is Edwards.

Unlike Bush and Kerry, Edwards is not Skull & Bones.

[WilliamPitt]

5. So there has been a transition

from voting your principles to voting for whatever candidate, no matter the baggage, can stop Kerry? You don't see an inherent inconsitency in that? If that's the case, then Dean supporters should throw their moral superiority right out the window. Likewise, any attacks against ABBers should likewise cease. There is no moral difference between ABB and ABK. It is all expediency, and screw the issues.

PS, anyone who wants to retain moral standing should vote for Dennis, but that goes without saying.

[IndianaGreen]

16. If you want to make the issues, the issue, then ABB is out of the window

because the Democrats will nominate candidates that voted for the war and for PATRIOT.

On the other hand, if Bush = Hitler, one has to decide which of the unacceptable candidates is more acceptable.

Edwards wins hands down because he is not a Washington insider, and he doesn't waffle on every side of an issue as Kerry does.

Edwards can relate to working class people more than John Forbes Kerry can.

[WilliamPitt]

19. Edwards helped write the Patriot Act and voted for the war

so...I think you're reaching.

[IndianaGreen]

22. They all failed on PATRIOT. No one read it, no hearings were held.

If Bush were not = Hitler, I would have bolted to a third party by now on the basis of PATRIOT and the war.

Kerry won't even repeal PATRIOT! He wants to sugar coat it.

Kucinich is the one that most closely represents my views, but at 2% of the primary vote Dennis ain't gonna stop Kerry.

[George_Bonanza]

63. Clark, Dean, Edwards, and Kerry all want to "sugarcoat" Patriot Act

Why is there this notion that Kerry is somehow some kind of a pro-Patriot Act goon? If you can excuse Edwards for that vote, how can you condemn Kerry without being a big biased hypocrite? If you think Dean wants to scrap the whole Patriot Act, check his website.

[Donna Zen]

101. sugarcoat?

Since Clark's supporters have little to say about any of this, I notice that none have cried foul to your statement. Clark has been consistent that he would suspend the Patriot Act, strike down the portions relating to search and seizure, and review the act line-by-line to see if there were ways currently existing to accomplish the same thing. And if there weren't, then we had to decide if the little bit of safety that might be provided was worth the cost of our freedom. He looked at the P/A as a law enforcement "wish list" and not necessarily a document that justified trading a way our freedom.

I wouldn't send anyone a dollar if they supported the P/A. This is a big issue for me. Changing the Constitution without an amendment is more than a slippery slope; it is a god-damn avalanche into totalitarian hell. The war is bad enough, but in fifty years or so it may be over. If we lose our freedoms, it will take a revolution to regain them.

Just setting the record straight.

[bearfartinthewoods]

24. you have a cite for that 'wrote the pat act' crap?

[WilliamPitt]

34. Check my second book

or remind me tomorrow and I will dredge up the cite. I wrote in my book, based on (I believe it was) the NY Times that Edwards was part of the final drafting. I'm a veg right now. Get me tomorrow and I will nail it down for you.

[Lisa0825]

43. I'm undecided..... Kerry and Edwards both have several undesirable

aspects in my opinion.... BOTH were absent from their elected responsibilities while campaigning... BOTH voted badly on several items.... I'm not sure I could happily support either, but I will FAKE hapiness if need be, and do whatever it takes to get one elected. At this moment, the one positive I can say about Edwards is that he is engaging... whereas Kerry drones on and on and bores me to death. But that's not enough to vote on, so I have some research to do. I'll probably still vote for Dean anyway, unless one of them convinces me otherwise. But when the GE comes around, I'll pretend to be the nominee's biggest fan!

[GreenArrow]

58. "Edwards engaging: -- of course it's enough to vote on!

34 percent of Wisconsin Democrats voted for him, based on that.

[disenfranchised]

67. Didn't Edwards write the sunset clause in the Patriot Act?

Is that such a negative?

[revcarol]

131. Only a FEW sections of the Patriot Act have the sunset clause.

The rest of it MUST BE REPEALED, or it will GO ON AND ON AND ON.

DK is the only one that seems to realize this. Most DU-ers don't understand this. They don't realize that THE DAMAGE WILL CONTINUE UNTIL IT IS REPEALED.

So Edwards supporters...what now?

[AP]

74. Buy your book for the answers?

And your evidence is a NYTimes report?

I look forward to hearing from you tomorrow.

[WilliamPitt]

114. Here you go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=354765

[libertad]

123. I hear him say it during a debate.

He clearly said he helped write the PATRIOT Act.

[GreenArrow]

36. Don't forget NCLB!

He voted for that one too!

And it's funny; Edwards claims he's "responsible" for his IWR vote, but so what? He STILL thinks it was the right thing to do.

Methinks he's more of a Washington insider than he wants to let on.

[IndianaGreen]

42. Kerry voted for NAFTA and for Plan Colombia

What's his excuse for that?

[GreenArrow]

51. Edwards wasn't around for those votes

but, given his other votes on issues concerning US imperialsim, I have no doubt that he would have supported Plan Colombia. AS for NAFTA, he's simply looking out for N. Carolina's textile industry; it's "personal for him." Who knows what he would think of it if his state hadn't been particularly effected by it? He voted for Most favored status for China, so his support of such things appears to be selective.

As for Kerry, well, he has no excuse. I just don't think that Edwards is a whole lot better, or different. He might be more ego driven than Kerry, but that's just a guess, because who really knows with Edwards? His voting record isn't real encouraging.

[DjTj]

61. He voted against Fast-Track and wrestled with his PNTR vote:

September 19, 2000:

As U.S. goods and services flow into China and as our engagement grows, the opportunity for real change in China grows. We are all aware that China has a long way to go in improving its record on human rights, religious liberty, environmental protection and labor rights. The abuses in that nation are serious. And I am committed to continued efforts to end those abuses. As American ideas, goods, and businesses surge into China , I believe China's record will improve.

But I am mindful that globalization and this bill in particular may have a real downside. As a Senator from North Carolina, I am well-positioned to see both the enormous benefits and the large costs of this measure.

Textile and apparel workers, many of whom live in North Carolina, face real challenges as a result of this measure. While in almost every respect the agreement with China benefits our country, textiles is the major exception. As a result of joining WTO, quotas on Chinese textiles and apparel will be eliminated in 2005. As a result, Chinese apparel will flow into the United States. By and large, the Chinese imports will likely displace imports from other countries. However, there is no doubt that an additional burden will be placed on the textile industry. To be sure, the industry can try to protect itself through the anti-surge mechanism put in place by this legislation. Yet it does us no good to pretend that these remedies are perfect and that people will not be hurt. I know that textile workers will work their hearts out competing with the Chinese. I know these people; I grew up with them. When I was in college, I worked a summer job in a textile mill. My father spent his life working in mills. The impact of PNTR on them is personal to me. Dealing with the impact of this bill on them will always be a top priority for me. And I will fight throughout my career to protect them.

Mr. President, China's entry into the World Trade Organization and its attainment of permanent normal trade relations with America is not without its risks. No one can predict with certainty that China will live up to its commitments. I vote for this bill because I believe that we must turn our face toward the future. But we must be mindful of the risks. So I warn that I will monitor China's compliance with its agreements like a hawk. If they renege, I will lead the charge to force them to live up to their obligations.

But to vote against this measure--to deny PNTR--not only fails to accomplish anything productive but also denies us enormous opportunities. We cannot hide our heads in the sand. China will join the WTO. The Senate has no impact on that decision. The only question we face is whether the U.S. will grant China permanent normal trade relations or whether it will fall out of compliance with its WTO obligations. If we fall out of compliance, the U.S. will be denied the Chinese tariff reductions and rule changes, while every other country in the world takes advantage of the Chinese concessions. We must decide whether the U.S. will be able to compete with other countries--Germany, France, Japan--as they enter the Chinese market. American companies and workers deserve the right to enter those markets. On balance, I believe that China's admission into the World Trade Organization and its attainment of permanent normal trading relations is for the good.

And so I vote for this legislation, mindful of the risks, prepared to watch the results carefully and optimistic about the future.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2000_record&page=S8701&position=all

It is personal to him, and he feels sympathy for all manufacturing jobs - what affects the textile mills is tied to manufacturing across the country.

[flpoljunkie]

89. John Edward's Anti-Environmental Votes in the Senate

2000

~Voted against increased funding for renewal energy

2001

~Voted to continue dumping mountain top removal waste into rivers and streams

2002

~Voted against increased renewables for energy use
~Voted against increased CAFE standards
~Voted to weaken the Safe Water Drinking Act by expanding oil/gas drilling using hydraulic fracturing
~Voted to continue factory farm subsidies, i.e. hog farms

2003

~Voted against keeping polluters responsible for pollution
~Voted to send waste to Yucca Mountain

[HFishbine]

94. Chirp, chirp, chirp....

Helllooooooo!

[DemDogs]

78. Campaigned against NAFTA n/t

[flpoljunkie]

102. But Then Voted for the 2000 China Trade Deal.

[Lisa0825]

37. Give more info, Will..... being credited as *helping write* includes as

little as adding an amendment to try to improve a poorly written act. I honestly don't know what Edwards' contribution was, but I will find out before I make my choice. However, the old "he helped write" this or that argument has been used and abused over the years. Many who tried to improve bad bills have been the victims of such criticism before. So, unless you can give specifics, maybe you shouldn't throw stones on that one.

[AP]

73. Elizabeth Edwards said that JRE wrote no part of the Patriot Act.

He was on the committee responsible for it, and the Democrats on that committtee ensured that the sunset provision was inserted and removed a lot of the worst stuff in it, and Fiengold says as much about their good work in his testimony on the day he proposed his four or five amendments.

[DemDogs]

77. Edwards did NOT write the Patriot Act - this is an old lie

or help write it. This has been talked about dozens of times.

[WilliamPitt]

115. He better change his press release, then

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=354765

[Goreloverjp]

120. Re:helped write the Patriot Act

The only part of the Patriot Act that Edwards helped write, was the Sunset provision...and he should be given credit for having the incite for making sure that we would have to go and re-visit it and make any alterations necessary.

[WilliamPitt]

121. Cite?

I have this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=354765

[ModerateMiddle]

112. and yet exit polls

in WI show that it was Kerry who led amongst the working class folks.

[EXE619K]

18. I'm not ABK.

Hardly.

As I've stated in the past, I never recommend that voting against a candidate out of spite is a virtuous thing.

I just don't like Kerry and I hope you can understand that.

Candidates need to earn my support.

And I'm an Independent.

Litmus tests don't matter a whole lot to me.

[HFishbine]

93. True but...

Are we going to ask the former DK supporters who now support Edwards how they can do so? (Start with those in Iowa who caucused for Edwards for the sake of political expediency). Maybe this is for a new thread.

[Kira]

116. You were a 100% for Kerry

until you got a job with Kucinich. I don't think you can talk about moral superiority. Kerry was just as much for the war as Edwards. So you were saying screw the issues when you backed him. He voted for it. Period. He knew what Bush was like and he knew exactly what he was going to do. We all did. Kerry however used dirty tactics to help bring down Dean and I for one will not forget that. I am leaning towards Edwards because I like his anti Nafta stand and I think he would be great in a debate against Bush. However I think his lack of experience in government will be a draw back. As well as lack of "war" experience. I am still deciding. I think you need to examine your own inconsistancies before you attack us. I think most Dean supporter feel like we don't have much of a choice now. All we want is Bush out. It is a very depressing situation.

[bearfartinthewoods]

127. plus he doesn't have enough of a spine to stand by his vote.

anyone who has watched him waffle on the war issue learned a lot about the measure of the man.

[XanaDUer]

6. Ah, S & B...

I wondered when that was going to resurface... :eyes:

[NNN0LHI]

13. No IG. We are trying to stop Bush. Did you forget that? n/t

[Jax]

50. How in the heck

is voting FOR the Iraq war like Kerry and Edwards did STOPPING b*sh NNNOLHI???

Are you kidding me? When I read YOU believed the WMD bullshit you truly could have knocked me over with a feather...

Your efforts at DU and espacially LBN have been great...but, like I have said here before, this part time DUer knew this Iraq war was bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. Period. Stop.

This pre-emptive, 'politically expedient for some Dems to vote yes to' horror in Iraq is having life changing(for the bad NNNOLHI, for the BAD) and lifetime effects on real people. REAL PEOPLE!!!!

God damn that pro war vote forever. Dems who said yes to this appointed madman stink. They will NEVER have my support for President. Ever.

NNNOLHI!!!!....

Jax

[NNN0LHI]

95. Listen. The majority of DUers thought there was at least some WMD's...

...in Iraq before the UN inspectors went in. Most like me also thought there was not enough to go to war over though. Now if you want to sit here and keep saying I told you so. Go ahead and do that if it makes you feel better. But until you show me one of your posts here where you say you knew for sure there were none before the inspectors went in I say you are full of beans. And if you do find one that predates the inspectors going into Iraq I will say congratulations. Good call. So lets see the post. Just one post by you will do. Put your money where your mouth is.

Don

[MrSoundAndVision]

15. I think

being as much of the part of the Senate establishment in Washington and believing the propoganda about Iraq enough to condone war makes John Edwards enough of a member of Skull and Bones to be discounted as an ethical leader of the American people.

So many of us knew they were lies, I knew, my wife knew, you probably knew to, yet we are to believe that John Edwards, in the thick of it, didnt? Too hard to believe.

[HFishbine]

96. Think that through, the implications are terrifying

When John Edwards says he's all for the war even though he didn't buy the bullshit intelligence, the only implication is that his "standards" for pre-emptive war are even lower than Bush's. Edwards acknowledges there was no immenent threat, but was willing to abandon inspections, containment, international law and diplomatic solutions because Saddam was a bad guy.

[indigo32]

7. This Dean supporter

never attacked Dennis,
and is not at this point embracing Edwards (though it was fun watching him take Kerry down a notch).

[EXE619K]

8. Dean.

Dean until the end.

If Kerry gets the nod....perhaps Cobb.

As an Independent...my choices are fairly open.

[killbotfactory]

9. I prefer Edwards to Kerry

And I disagree with him strongly on IWR. I just prefer someone who is willing to take responsibility for his vote. I watched him do so for voting for the PATRIOT act at a Town Hall meeting a few months ago. I think he has more integrity than Kerry.

[eileen_d]

14. I think he's wrong, but at least he's consistent?

Politics make strange bedfellows, I guess...

[WilliamPitt]

17. By the 'consistent' logic,

Kerry should run away with it because he has been consistent in his support of Bush issues like the IWR, the Patriot Act, Homeland Security...but he blew the consistency thing by voting against the tax cuts and by filibustering the judicial nominations. Oh it's all a mess. :)

[IndianaGreen]

26. Kerry cannot be trusted

A man that is on every side of an issue cannot be trusted or be relied upon. Kerry is either an opportunist, trying to be on all sides of an issue, or he lacks core values, which is why he flip-flops. Either case represents a serious character flaw.

[GreenArrow]

39. "responsibility"

So, his IWR vote is tolerable since he is "responsible" for it, even though he still thinks it was the right thing to do?

[JVS]

46. The standard has been lowered by Kerry's inability to clarify his stance

[GreenArrow]

53. Kerry's stance is clear

Bush misled. Kerry wouldn't do that(I paraphrase here.) Bush misused his power, and therefore HE has to be held accountable.

The differences between JRE and JK on this issue are negligible; they both think it was the right thing to do, but done the wrong way.

[JVS]

64. That's the version he's decided to settle on?

It was unclear due to constant revision before, now it's just lame. Anyone who gets tricked by Bush isn't presedent material. That is losing a battle of wits to the village idiot.

[GreenArrow]

106. "Anyone who gets tricked by Bush..."

Which is my point exactly. Edwards, like Kerry got "tricked." Except I don't think either one of them were tricked; they both knew what they were voting for, which was essentially the continuation of long standing US policy.

It's simply not enough for Edwards to say "I'm responsible, but I think it was the right thing to do." It's meaningless parsing.

[JVS]

132. It demonstrates more integrity than spending a year floating different...

excuses, but you have good a point. Both of these guys are unfit for the nomination. Bush hornswoggled both of them.

[zoeyfong]

79. Both reasons why neither edwards or kerry should be president.

Bush misled kerry? LOL. There were literally millions of people who knew the truth about the war, and countless credible sources in knowlegable positions who cast serious doubts on bush's 'case.' Kerry had all the information he needed to make the right decision; many people did make the right decision, kerry did not. But you are right, there's not much difference between kerry and edwards, except that edwards grew up poor, so presumably he would be a little more in touch with the average person.

[GreenArrow]

109. that's essentially what I'm getting at

Niether was tricked, and if Kerry is to be reviled for his vote on it, then the same standard should apply to Edwards. Niether was tricked; they each made an informed decision to vote yes on IWR, even though the case for it was flimsy beyond reckoning.

Growing up poor may or may not make one more in touch with the average person.

[Old and In the Way]

84. Exactly right GreenArrow.

Let's say the next President (Dennis Kucinich, for example) and he gets intel that country X is building nukes and will be planting them in major US cities in the next 2 weeks. He shares the intel with Congress and asks for support on backing him in negotitating with this country by giving him the option to protect our interests.

(1) Do we want Republicans wondering if the President is being political with his request? Doubtful.

The fact that Bush used the IWR to further his own political agenda is the issue, not that Congress served the institution of the Presidency. What Bush has really done is damage the credibility of his office, such that future Presidents may well be handcuffed by his reckless actions to benefit his interests. For that reason, he ought to be impeached.

[HFishbine]

98. Reminds me of why Jessee Helms kept getting reelected

People here in NC used to explain their support for Jessee Helms by saying, "I don't agree with him, but at least I know where he stands."

[Armstead]

10. I don't embrace Edwards but I prefer him

I would much prefer to see him over Eyore Kerry.

And the fact that Edwards had that deal with Kucinich in Iowa didn't bother me at all. In fact it made me feel better about him to know that he can relate to Kucinich.

[PurityOfEssence]

49. That's nice to hear

It's hard to not get so pent up over certain moments and past rivalries that one can't do the sensible thing. Somewhere in a happy life, one has to find the balance between emotion and logic, and it's not a betrayal of both or either, as many ideologues and frenzied partisans would like one to think.

John Kerry makes dourness sound like a form of sublime joy.

If one wants to counter a raging nightmare like Junior, one needs radically different tactics. Kerry's sober fight-it-out stolidity are mildly rousing, but it's still framed with the same war rhetoric as Bush's. Edwards' message is positive, hopeful and joyous, and that will show Junior for the conniving, blindsiding vulture he is. The contrast between those two would be incredibly destructive to the little nobody from Connecticut.

[mouse7]

11. Edwards is not Kerry. Kucinich is not Kerry.

The main reason people are moving to Edwards is mainly that he isn't John Kerry.

I've never heard anyone accuse Kucinich of being John Kerry. Therefore, I doubt Dean supporters will feel an apology is necessary.

[MercutioATC]

12. There's a logic gap in your argument:

Kucinich (not Kucinich supporters) was "savaged" for teaming up with Edwards in Iowa.

Dean is not teaming up with any candidate (especially not one with vastly different political views) for political gain.

Some of Dean's supporters are jumping ship, but in one instance you're dealing with a candidate compromising his stated principles for political gain and in the other you're dealing with "disloyal" supporters.

The two do not bear comparison.

[stickdog]

20. Never give up. Never give up. Never give up.

Edwards can't win because of the 35 million limit.

Kerry can't win period.

Dean played the 1976 Reagan card tonight.

The day Dean gets out of the race is day we start working for 2008.

[mouse7]

30. Actually, that's not quite true with Edwards now.

If Edwards wins the nomination, he's going to need to go until almost the very end of the primary schedule to clinch a win. Edwards would not have the months and months of time for Bush to dump broadsides against him. Maybe a couple of months tops, and that much time could be eating up with a good media person playing out the VP selection process.

[EXE619K]

32. Dean in 2008.

I'm looking forward to that!

But, I think in 2008, he should run as Indy.

Because, one can only look at his record and easily figure out that he's neither a Dem or GOP.

Screw the Bi-Partisan politic BS.

[stickdog]

66. That's what they want. Sorry, but we want our party back and we're

gonna get it back.

[zoeyfong]

80. right on!

[WyLoochka]

86. I'm with stickdog

If not Dean in 2004, then Dean in 2008 and Dean in 2012... We will be relentless.

[Walt Starr]

21. Dean hasn't dropped out

Until then, I am 100% behind Howard. If he drops prior to MArch 16th, I'll go with Edwards as the anti-Kerry.

[BuelahWitch]

71. Me too Walt

:hi:

[dsc]

23. I will not support Edwards

but there is a huge difference between supporters of a candidate who withdraws from the race deciding to go with their number two, and a candidate doing what Dennis did in Iowa. I don't really have a number two but gun to my head I would take Kerry on most days.

[IndianaGreen]

29. Coming from you, I respect you for that

I don't agree with going with Kerry, but even Kerry is preferable to Bush.

[dsc]

40. It is a very close call

and all due to Edwards having an atrocious gay rights record prior to 2000. He refused to sponser either ENDA or hate crimes until the Congress of 2001. That sealed Edwards' fate with me. I knew he had a 71 from the HRC but no idea why until my local gay paper told me why.

[IndianaGreen]

45. On the other hand, Edwards's law firm provided benefits to same sex

partners. Edwards was responsible for that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. Neither Kerry or Edwards will get my vote.

Both voted for the slaughter and backed Bush. If anything, Edwards more so than Kerry. I'm appalled that some Dean supporters are so quick to fall under the DLC spell.

We're now faced with another election of "more of the same", or "not so much more of the same."

Green for me.

[NNN0LHI]

28. You are voting for Jello? Thats cool n/t

[IndianaGreen]

33. This is nothing more than strategic voting for the primaries

that's all!

[robsul82]

27. Difference is simple.

Mr. U.S. Out, UN In made a vote deal with a supporter for the war. Dean didn't think the war should have happened, but he believes we now need to stay there until it's done. Much different stances.

Later.

RJS

[Redneck Socialist]

31. I'm Dean until he drops out

but if (when) he does I will support Edwards. I never bashed DK, in fact I like the guy, but I think Edwards has a real shot. Sure IWR and the Patriot Act stick in my craw but I think I can choke those bitter pills down.

I find Edwards personal story pretty compelling. I like how he has gone about positioning himself and getting his message out and he has that Clinton charm oozing out of every pore.

Kerry is a stuffed suit who early on campaigned as if the nomination was his birthright. His "oh, this meeting the unwashed masses is soooo dreary, such a bother" attitude was not exactly endearing. To Kerry's credit he seems to have gotten over that but he still takes fifty sentences to make his point when five would do.

That is why I will go for Edwards if Dean drops out.

PS My state has already held it's primary so this whole discussion is rather pointless, but I still like Edwards.

[JVS]

35. Watching, waiting.

Don't hold either of them in high regard. Liked Gephardt more than either, because despite helping Bush with his war he had put in hard time against NAFTA, which is admirable. I suppose Edwards has this advantage over Kerry as well. I'll have to read more on Edwards. Perhaps neither are acceptable.

[JasonBerry]

38. Simple

Because Dean doing something actually MEANS something.
Kucinich doing something simply d-o-e-s n-o-t matter!
A viable candidate doing something that raises eyebrows is different than a fringe candidate doing the same.

For example, there was a post by a presidential candidate's press secretary (no names) yesterday that blasted Edwards and called people in the south "suckers." It got no news. Don't you think if JOHN KERRY'S press secretary said the same thing -- we'd hear about his departure from the Kerry campaign soon after? It would be ALL OVER the news!

Same with this issue. Simply, what Kucinich does or doesn't do matters to NOBODY.

[For PaisAn]

41. Here's a novel idea

As long as Dean remains in the race, why don't Dean supporters umm... vote for Dean. I don't get this "My candidate's not doing so good so I'm gonna switch" mentality. Isn't the Primary Election where we vote for the candidate that we want for the Democratic nominee? Did I miss something? We will eventually have a winner. It does no harm to the party or our chances of beating Bush by voting for the candidate that we want. Or as Dennis Kucinich said "I'm electable, if you vote for me."

[hedda_foil]

44. Gee, golly, Will

Shouldn't you be trying to get us to back "your" candidate? Isn't that supposed to be Dennis?

BTW, there aren't many Dean supporters rushing to Edwards. Not many at all.

Whatever you're trying to accomplish wrt Dean supporters seems to be backfiring. I wonder why.

[Anwen]

47. For me, this is a non-issue.

Dean is still in this race. I for one still support him 100% and will continue to do so as long as he is in the running.

[drfemoe]

48. If anyone believes Dean supporters

will march lockstep with ANYONE, they don't know the same Dean supporters I do.

[IndianaGreen]

52. Long term we need a progressive alternative to the DLC

short term we need to stop Kerry, and Edwards is the only one that can do it.

[drfemoe]

57. I admire and respect your posts, IG

nt

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Indiana_Dem]

55. I love Dean as well as Kucinich but DK has a voting record

that cannot be refuted. He has me sold on anti-corporative NAFTA-WTO issues and education and healthcare and war. I do consider myself part of the Dean movement though. I will follow him closely as I think he will be a great leader in the grassroots movement. However, DK's commitment and voting record win my vote in the primaries......that being said, I appreciate Edwards' anti NAFTA-WTO and trade ideas but it kind of stops there and then I like Kerry's healthcare, environmental/energy, small business ideas but then it stops there for him, too. Many of the frontrunners' stances now sound alot like DK and Dean's. I've been following this since last June-July and all of a sudden Kerry and Edwards have come up sounding like DK, Dean & Clark! I guess I'll take that as a good thing but is it REAL? They're voting records don't mesh so it's difficult to decide if it would become a real tight race between the two.

[Desertrose]

65. well put !

"Kerry- Edwards....They're voting records don't mesh so it's difficult to decide if it would become a real tight race between the two. "

[Indiana_Dem]

69. Thanks desertrose. I didn't answer Will's question though--

I was a Dean supporter pretty much and still am. I was going to vote for him regardless until last week when I finally could see the writing on the wall. He'll probably drop out Thursday as I think he should. I will still follow his queues, though, to work on the other branches of government. He is a good leader and motivator.

No, I won't vote for Edwards in the primaries UNLESS maybe the race is extremely tight between Edwards and Kerry. Then I would have to figure out which would be the better against Bush. As I wrote above, they both have qualities I like and dislike--I'd just have to weigh them out. I don't vote until May 4th. Right now my heart is set on DK. He is the one that carries/presents the most issues to my liking. If the race isn't squeaky tight and if DK is still in, I'm definitely voting DK from my heart.

[Zomby Woof]

122. hi mom!

I see you have a cool new avatar! I do too, except it's a self-portrait. ;-) :hug:

[ibegurpard]

59. Even if I wasn't

the reactions in this thread would be enough to make me SAY I was. I cannot begin to express how much I'm enjoying this thread.

[ShaneGR]

60. Will, are you bashing Edwards because of DK, or Kerry?

Just wondering.

[AP]

75. On the clock or off?

I had the same question.

[ShaneGR]

103. I'm a little confused about Will

Not exactly the behavior I would expect DK would expect of a press secretary. Maybe he was just excited.

[CWebster]

107. Fairly obvious to all of us..nt

[Sushi-Lover]

62. Actually between Kerry and Edwards

I don't have a preference. Their pluses and minuses seem to balance out for me. If Dean drops, I will still vote for him in my primary or will sit it out. Disclaimer: Yes .. yes I will be voting ABB.

[Blue_Roses]

68. embracing him?

no, but following very close. Since the beginning of this race, I saw some extremely talented candidates which made it hard to commit to one, so I decided to watch all of them until there was some clarity, but that doesn't seem to be letting up even as the field narrows.

However, Edwards first caught my attention a year ago as I listened to him on one of the Sunday morning talk shows and from what I saw, I liked him alot. I'm from the south and I can relate to how he "speaks" to the people with a silent voice. There was a time through this year where he was not so vocal, or at least he wasn't heard considering the attention the media was giving to Dean, therefore making him less viable --to me.

Now, with his new surge of momentum, I'm looking again. I'm also looking at Kerry close as well. Both men have great qualities that would make them an excellent nominee. That's what's making this so hard for me. I've been active in primaries since '88 and this has to be the wildest one yet.

My primary isn't until May, and by that time it may be all sewn up so until then I will keep looking and learning.

[dkf]

70. It's because there was another anti-war candidate to vote for in Iowa.

Now it is the choice of the two war candidates if Dean drops out.

I really really dislike John Kerry. If Edwards is the nominee I can vote Democrat. I may even donate some $. If its Kerry I'm voting Nader, Bush or I'm writing Gov. Dean in.

I think Kerry is the worst of Clinton, Nixon and Torricelli all wrapped in one snooze of a package.

At least Edwards is a cutie!

Of course if my Gov. Dean stays in the game he's got my $ and my time.

Go Dean!

[zoeyfong]

81. Yep, looks like it's down to Empty Suit #1 vs. Empty Suit #2.

Now that it's coming down to those two, i get the feeling that i should have known this was going to happen.

[zoeyfong]

76. I'm a Dean supporter who is not supporting Edwards or kerry, ever.

Regardless of who dr. dean may or may not endorse. I would support kucinich, though.

[regnaD kciN]

82. Define "teaming up"...

At this point, with Dean still in the race, I'm still supporting Dean.

If Dean drops out, I will switch my support to Kucinich.

If Kucinich then drops out, it seems that the only possible choice would be between Kerry and Edwards, where we're definitely in "lesser of two evils" territory. If someone put a gun to my head and forced me to pick between one and the other, I'd choose Edwards -- because, while both have taken equally objectionable stands on a number of issues over the past few years, at least Edwards didn't sell out the values he'd been a standard-bearer for over the last three decades to do so. :grr:

It seems to me that there's a big difference between an individual's decision "there's no one good in the race, so we may as well side with the least noxious man still standing" (which is really what Kerry supporters are asking/demanding Kerry opponents to do in the general election, isn't it?) and what the Kucinich campaign did in Iowa, which was an organized effort to make common cause with a candidate who was almost Kucinich's polar opposite, simply to help defeat another progressive who was much closer to Kucinich's values than Edwards could ever be.

So, sorry, no apology.

[On the Road]

83. I am Now Embracing Edwards Only in the Sense That

the race is down to two candidates now.

I don't think it's defeatism to count Dean out at this point. If Dean doesn't drop out I will still vote for him. If he does, hmmmm, maybe Kucinich. I prefer not to engage in strategic voting, which is what a vote for Edwards in the primary would be.

I like Edwards's progressive trade and economic stances. His position on the war gives me the creeps -- I think he will eagerly take up the banner of US imperialism.
But no candidate is perfect.

And I did not criticize the Kucinich deal in Iowa. That's normal politics.

[REP]

85. I Bash Kucinich on His Many Many Many Many Many Many Many Other Flaws

But I never said anything about the Iowa alliance between him and Edwards.

I'm still supporting Dean, and I'll vote for whoever wins the nomination. Right now, I am more inclined to work for Edwards than I am for Kerry, but this could change. I have no strong feelings against Kerry, but I don't have strong ones for him, either.

[goobergunch]

87. Dean's still on the ballot in my state

And to him remains my support.

[loudnclear]

88. Not me, I'm still a DK man.

Now, the question is whether I will vote for Kerry in the election if he is the Dem candidate? Yes...with a very heavy heart.

[HFishbine]

91. Dean supporter here who berated Kucinich for teaming up with Edwards

If Dean isn't viable by the time NC's primary rolls around, I'll be voting for DK. (And you'll let DK know not to do such a bonehead thing again, right?)

[LynneSin]

97. Hypocrisy not found here.....

I'm ABB

I would love for it to be Dennis, but this late in the game isn't looking very likely. I think Dennis is young enough that he can try another run for president (or how about one of those 2 repuke senate seats in Ohio??)

[RetroLounge]

99. Must Follow Media Script

Votes. Must have Votes...

[NoPasaran]

100. Not me

Edwards and Kerry to me are like McDonalds and Burger King. They taste a little difference, and I'd eat some if I was hungry enough but they both make me queasy.

I had nothing bad to say about the DK/JE deal in Iowa. I didn't like that it probably hurt my guy, but tactics is tactics.

[NNN0LHI]

104. Not to put you on the spot Will but my memory is failing me today

My question is did either DK or Ritter ever come out and say definitively that there were no so called WMD's in Iraq before the UN inspectors went in? I am thinking that they, like pretty much all Americans thought Saddam had at least something. I know both of them and you and I along with the majority of DUers did not believe whatever was there would worth going to war over though. Thanks for answering this query if you have a minute.

Don

[CWebster]

105. Is this a defense of Kucinich...or Kerry?

"Whatever the number, the question is whether their enthusiasm is transferable, either at Dean's direction or otherwise, to another candidate. Privately, sources said, Dean has expressed doubt that many backers could ever generate enthusiasm for Kerry. In Dean's view, Kerry is the epitome of an old-hat, out-for-himself politician, and he believes most of his supporters feel likewise."

From The Washington Post article previously linked.

[WilliamPitt]

111. Kucinich

I had a whole thread about this a few days ago. You should go find it.

[shanti]

108. not i

i will write in dean's name in california.

[Cassandra]

110. I'll still vote for Dean

but I hope Edwards stays in the race to keep it going as long as possible (good for campaigning practice and lots of FREE publicity). I never faulted DK for making his deal with Edwards; it seemed eminently practical to me. Kucinich has never only been about being against the war; I think he liked Edwards' populist views. If some people support Edwards now who scorned the practice before, maybe it's just making do with what's left. :shrug:

[Ficus]

113. THANK YOU WILL!

I was an Iowa Kucinich voter who got savaged over this. Thanks for pointing out the obvious point that I'm sure many Dean people don't get.

[jonnyblitz]

117. I "embrace" nobody. I hold nose and vote for DEM in NOV.n/t

[NashVegas]

118. In My Recollection

The majority of griping that was done when Kucinich pushed his Iowa people to Edwards were ... Kucinich supporters. At the time, again, IIRC, the Dean supporters who commented on it were more commisserative to their disillusionment than they were condemning of Dennis. Most of us were too busy dealing with the scream to devote attention attacking a candidate who got 1% of the vote.

Even before a certain well-known DUer became a part of Dennis' campaign, there was very little criticism towards that candidate, comparatively speaking, if for no other reason than it's considered impolite to flog a dead horse.

For my own part, I conjectured Kucinich was a stalking horse in the race to attack Dean from the left. Perhaps in all of two posts, and see no reason to apologize for expressing a genuine opinion for the sake of expression rather than a design to pry anyone's vote from their candidate of choice.

If Dean supporters wish to embrace Edwards, it's their choice and no one in DU has any business criticizing it, let alone demanding an apology. I don't recall any ABDer minding it before; as long as it meant there was one less vote for Dean, the ABDers were perfectly happy.

Where was your disdain in November, December and January when some of the most vehement attacks against Dean in the DU forums were coming from people whose sig included a pic of Jello Biafra in a Kucinich shirt. Hmmm? Look to your own house, Bub. Dean supporters owe Dennis Kucinich nothing.

[seventhson]

124. Me Me!!! I'll support anyone but Kerry in the primaries!!! I like Edwards!

I think Dean is the better candidate and that Kucinich has the better policy proposals.

But I certainly embrace Edwards over Kerry any day month or year!

I had no problem with the Edwards DK trade off except in that it hurt Dean who was IMHO closer to DK on the war issue.

[Khephra]

125. Not me

Edwards is my last choice. I'd rather vote for Sharpton than Edwards.

[ChiefJoseph]

126. Right here.

Was for Dean, now I'm for Edwards.

[BurtWorm]

128. I'm not embracing Edwards.

He is my last pick.

[Tinoire]

129. It seems nonsensical for Dean people to do that but

It seems nonsensical for Dean people to do that (and you KNOW I'm not Dean) but Edwards has the saving grace of being anti-NAFTA and after all the damage that was done to Kucinich, Edwards is at least a fighting bet.

Lack of thought, blind-faith head-burying got us to this point but we are mere mortals, played like violins alas... Flawed but trying to do what we can for the best...

[mrgorth]

130. Who cares?

I really can't decide which of Kerry, Edwards I like more. I think I'm leaning towards Kerry because of his protests against 'Nam and work against Reagan's central american stuff. Edwards seems to be more of a legitimate populist but he's less ashamed of his war vote.

Now, I think you're being unfair to Dean people in this hour of pain regarding Iowa. Look, people are free to endorse whoever they want upon leaving. More importantly, I can't take responsibility for what other, individual Dean supporters do. To some the war is most important. To others, the populist message. Bottom line, Dennis has made opposition to the war (UN in and US out) pretty much his most important policy. Instead of sticking to his guns or maybe teaming up with Sharpton or Dean he teamed up with one of the least apologetic war supporters for little other reason than their friendship.

Point, if Kerry was to come out and unquestionabley apologize for his war vote and Dean still endorsed Edwards I would be at least as mad at Dean as I was at DK. I hope that clears it up.

[enki23]

133. i'm not into embracing anyone

but i'm just a cynic. make that a diehard cynic. if i had a choice between kerry and edwards in the primaries, i'd vote kucinich. hell, i'd have voted for kucinich anyway if i could have voted. my state held a caucus, however, and i'm very far away and registered independent anyway.

edwards does seem a strange choice, as he's more moderate than even kerry in many respects. or seems to be. maybe it's an "electability" issue, or maybe it's personal. it's disingenuous to pretend personal doesn't matter. of course it matters. part, though only part, of my intense hatred of bush and his cronies is personal. even without my other reasons, personal would probably be enough to keep it kindled. character *does* matter. it always did. in clinton's case (since it's impossible to talk about presidential character without mentioning this shit) it's just that i don't consider surreptitious blowjobs to be major indicators of character.

[WI_DEM]

134. I guess it is politics

DK supporters said the arrangement with Edwards in Iowa was for political reasons to benefit him and Edwards--will it benefitted Edwards much more than DK. I guess that Dean supporters who go with Edwards feel he is the lesser of two evils and do appreciate that he is speaking out on issues such as poverty and civil rights.

I for myself have gone from Dean to DK, but don't blame my brothers and sisers who have gone from Dean to Edwards. We all have to make a choice now.

[edzontar]

135. Dear Mr. Pitt: I don't like either Kerry or Edwards much at all.

And I don't really care which of them gets the nomination, since I live in PA and will have to vote for the nominee no matter HOW awful, since this is a swing-state.

Either way, a lousy, war-supporting, business-as-usual Dem wll be running, and I will have to vote for the man.

My question for you is: Why do you care so much about Edwards vs. Kerry?

Dennis is still in the race.

If you ask me, you should be making HIS case to us, not Kerry's.