Steny Hoyer says he is "mad at the base".

[madfloridian]

From FireDogLake today, a good example of what we are facing. They think that it is unrealistic of us to expect them to do anything about getting out of Iraq.

The Impenetrable Density of DC Elites

Hoyer never really did answer how he planned to expand Democratic numbers while funding the war, but did comment that “I know the base is mad at us – and I’m mad at the base.” When he tossed that off, I inquired “Because…..?” He basically said the base has unrealistic expectations in terms of ending the war, and the Dems can’t de-fund it because doing so would anger the moderates they need to win more seats in ’08. (I must be delusional in thinking that the 70% of the public opposed to the war includes some independents – that’s obviously not the thinking in Hoyer-land).

I am mad at Steny Hoyer.

[MissWaverly]

1. hey, not only is the base mad, we are not giving money

gasp, the liberals and progressives are not giving, something about not being listened to.

[TankLV]

30. Exactly - I gave one hundred bucks to MoveOn instead - they're DOING something

Dems should learn from them...

Not a penny till the Dems show some SPINE...

[MissWaverly]

72. and I am donating to progressives

if we want a progressive government that spends more on people than wmds and biological weapons, we will have to
grow them. Methinks the beltway crowd is too conservative/both parties.

[cyclezealot]

74. not our Dennis Kucinich

[MissWaverly]

77. him, too and I bought his book from Amazon

[Greyhound]

97. Click the banner, it comes from a good place (DU) and goes to where

it will do some good.

[MissWaverly]

104. DK has almost 50,000 on ActBlue, I am impressed

I gave.

:-)

[Greyhound]

110. Thank you so much. n/t

[calimary]

31. We are NOT giving money. I've told several fundraising callers

for various pockets of the Democratic Party the following: "No IMPEACHMENT? NO MONEY!!!" I can only afford to underwrite backbones.

And I'd add - STUFF IT, steny, you fucking INGRATE! WE got you where you are today: in the MAJORITIES in BOTH Houses of Congress. WE made that happen for you last November, chucko. You got that far because WE, your BASE, worked our butts off all last year, called, walked precincts, volunteered, signed petitions, wrote letters, sent emails, and gave-gave-gave - until it HURT. Many of us gave more than we could afford to give. You ignore your base AT YOUR PERIL, steny-baby. And lest you forget, YOU work for US. It's NOT the other way around. You're in that cocky-ass majority position with a little more weight to throw around and a seat at the grown-ups' table BECAUSE WE PUT YOU THERE. You NEED us DESPERATELY. And you better not forget it.

[madfloridian]

40. We give to the DNC to build the power structure outside of DC

because that is Dean's goal.

[MissWaverly]

48. Hey, I do too, but I have always given to help out Congress

No more until I hear the magic word: Impeach.

[MissWaverly]

46. if we want them to grow a spine, we better grow one for us first

:-)

[calimary]

92. Absolutely.

I only buy backbones.

[MissWaverly]

100. I am more convinced every day that we have to target our $$$

like this hypocritical bill today which starts a dangerous precedent. They have done nothing for years on the dirty,
divisive smash mouth ads run by their party, and now they are attacking a 1 day ad while not voting to allow the
troops equal respite from this filthy war where some of them are fighting their 5th tour. Our government becomes
more like a monarchy every day.

[eleny]

2. Base to Hoyer...

[AtomicKitten]

3. Steny has forgotten who he works for.

He should quit watching his political behind and start working on stopping the war - because it's the right thing to do, a novel idea to be sure but what the hell!

I am mad at Steny Hoyer.

Me too.

[Greyhound]

98. No, I think you just haven't realized for whom he has always worked.

I hate to say I told you so, but I did.

[WCGreen]

4. By this he probably means the GOP will be able to us that vote against

Individual Democratic candidates in some of the more red areas where we have a chance to pick up a few seats...

We already have the overwhelming democratic seats on our side...

I think he's right...

I don't agree with his voicing it this way in the press...

But he is probably privy to polling data that we don't have...

[madfloridian]

11. We must stand with Bush's base or they might hurt us.

Got it.

[WCGreen]

23. That's not what I said...

I said they are conducting polls in certain districts in order to see what we can do before the election...

We won almost all the swing districts that are vulnerable in an off year election...

They are looking to see what they can do in the vulerable districts in a presidential election...

I'm not defending them...

I'm just making an educated guess as to what is motivating them...

They are nervous...

That's why Hoyer snapped...

[bobbolink]

21. "Privy to ..... we don't have..."

GEEEE, that sounds familiar..

[WCGreen]

22. They are conducting polls right now on potential challengers in

various districts across the country...

I can guarantee that...

They have the money to do that so they are...

One thing we have to remember is that a lot of our seats are +60% and that our support against the war is piled on in some districts...

For instance, the Deborah Pryce seat in suburban Ohio is predominately GOP but we could take that seat with last years candidate...

We don't know for sure how anti-war that particular district is...

We shall see...

Beside, they are gonna force the issue with the Webb bill to restrict abuse of the troops by rotating them back before they should be...

THat is going to be the focal point...

[bobbolink]

25. Telling us we have nowhere else to go, so to hell with us is wearing thin.

Just like claiming to have more info that we are "privy" to.

Hoyer wants us to go?

Fine.

Let's see 'em pull out an election without their base.

We've been trod on enough!

[WCGreen]

27. Then I have nothing else to say...

Let the GOP take it all...

[bobbolink]

28. Yes. Let the frog come to a full boil. I'm thinking it's the only way now.

:(

[paulk]

35. so you're happy with Marylin Musgrave?

you must be, to post such nonsense....

[bobbolink]

88. Speaking of nonsense...

:crazy:

[paulk]

89. really? I mean... you've just threatened to not vote

so your current rep - Marylin Musgrave - must be ok with you...

what other conclusion is there to be drawn?

[Nite Owl]

5. What moderates are for the war?

Really these moderates he speaks of are the ones who still think Leiberman and the Nelsons are moderates.

Read a damned poll Hoyer, it's most of America your dissing not just the left!

[Dr Fate]

45. DLCers, who else? Except they are not really moderates, so I guess you are right. n/t

n/t

[BootinUp]

6. 70%never supported cutting funds, get real. n/t

[Sparkly]

9. Which is why it's way past time..

... to wave the Congressional magic wand!! :hide:

[madfloridian]

12. They said the same thing when we opposed Iraq.

Along the same lines of not being realistic.

Wonder how all those dying soldiers feel about that?

[Sparkly]

15. Ask the people who won't even vote for timelines, let alone an exit.

Most are REPUBLICANS.

[madfloridian]

17. But it is a person in our own party who is mad at us.

That's a crying shame.

They voted for a war urged by a president who was already a failure by the time of the vote, and now they are mad at us?

[partylessinOhio]

7. Steny Hoyer needs to stop propping up that ineffectual Squeaker!

The base is damned mad.

Quit counting votes and just do what is right! Use the seats YOU have NOW for you many have far less in '08. You got a message in '07 - run with it.

I'm mad at Steny Hoyer too.

[saracat]

8. Hoyer is rapidly joining the "idiot club" what can he be thinking????

[redqueen]

10. Moderates? 70% asshole! Moderate that!

How about tying funding to what the public wants?

This is NOT rocket science.

I'm fucking SICK of these bastards playing us for fools. And sad to see so many falling for it...

[slick8790]

16. 70% opposition to the war is far different than 70% in favor of defunding the war.

[madfloridian]

18. Notice he is mad at those he perceives as the base....

because they don't have realistic expectations.

He is playing to Bush's base, and is willing to anger us. Something is so very wrong with that.

[redqueen]

33. So you tie timetables to funding. SIMPLE.

[slick8790]

63. Well that's the obvious solution.

And the one I support. But as much as we can realize that a veto of such legislation would be bush's fault that the troops dont' get their funds, bush, republican congresspeople, and the media will yell as loudly as possible that the dems don't support the troops and won't fund them. you and I both know that.


i've said before that i think bush is bent on continuing this war through his administration, unless we pass a law mandating the troops come home on a certain date. If he doesn't get the funds from a specific bill, he'll pull them from other places. what we need is for moderate republicans to finally come around and leap off the sinking ship.

[redqueen]

66. You gotta make a stand sometime, though, don't you think?

I think we need to strike while the iron is hot.

Fiddle-farting around might end up worse for us in the long run. In fact, I'd bet that that's what happens. With regard to the whore media - damned if you do, damned if you don't... so might as well be damned for trying to do the righ thing, that's how I see it.

[slick8790]

68. I'm all for making a stand, I just don't see how that stand can help us here.

The way we end the war are things like Jim Webb's troop rest bill. like i said, i think he'll get the funding he wants from somewhere, regardless of whether congress gives it to him. if not bringing up a funding bill could positively kill the war, then i'd be all for it. I just don't know why we would put ourselves out in front of the media firing squad when one way or another, the funds will get there.

[redqueen]

70. Yeah... Webb's amendment is the best way.

*sigh*

[Dr Fate]

47. So say the excuse makers. n/t

n/t

[slick8790]

62. Do you deny what I said is true?

Or do you simply not care?

[Dr Fate]

64. It's not true. It's just that "centrists" must not be smart enough or tough enough to make the case.

Or perhaps it is they who dont seem to care. It's certainly not me who doesnt care.

If they really cared, they would be making the case to that 70% that defunding the war is the only way to make Bush budge.

Anyone with half a right-nut and half a brain can make the case that they are following the wishes of the majority electorate by ending the war the only way they can.

The problem is the conservat...er...I mean "centrists" dont really want to end the war- for what ever reason. That is perfectly clear to me now-a-days.

[slick8790]

67. Bush is going to keep this war going for his administration

unless the congress de-authorizes IWR, or uses another bill to take away the right to keep troops there. If he doesn't get the funds from congress, he'll take them from other parts of the DoD budget. the only way to end the war is for some republicans to wake up and start siding with the american people.

[Dr Fate]

71. Sure, that is what the elected DEMS who support the war would tell us.

Doing nothing and leaving the ball in the court of the minority party is the easy way out- as I said- no guts, no brains, or they actually agree with the wildy unpopular minority party & president.

If the "centrists" had the guts or the brains,or if they actually wanted to end the war, they would call the Bush/GOP bluff rather than make excuses.

I would love to see the Republican party attempt to continue fund & support the war after the DEMS grow a spine and side with the majority and do all they can to oppose it. Ahh-one can dream.

[high density]

13. Somebody please tell Steny Hoyer that Republicans are not moderates.

He seems to be confused and is pandering to a group that doesn't seem to exist, the "moderate" for the Iraq war.

[Dr Fate]

49. Somebody please tell the "blue dogs" and DLCers that supporting Bush isnt "moderate" either. n/t

n/t

[ddeclue]

14. How hard is it to simply NOT do something???

The Congress can simply NOT fund the war. They don't have to override any 60 votes filibuster margin in the Senate to do that or override a Presidential veto. If they simply stop appropriating the money for the war then the President will have to end it. They appropriate the funds to bring the troops home and require that that money be used ONLY for that purpose.

Without the money, the President can't run a war in Iraq. It's that simple. We need to stop thinking about it in terms of "ordering" the President to bring the troops home and START thinking about it in terms of refusing to fund the war. We can't do the first one because of our numbers in the Congress and Senate but we CAN "do" the second one simply by "not doing" it. It ought to be a hell of a lot harder for the President to come up with 218 votes in the House and 51 in the Senate than it is for Democrats to get from their existing margins to the filibuster proof / veto proof margins.

John Edwards gets this point, apparently Steny Hoyer does not.

Doug D.

[Dr Fate]

50. It's not hard. He is lying on behalf of the corporations and the right-wingers.n/t

n/t

[madfloridian]

19. It is not OUR base that has destroyed this country's credibility

and integrity.

Yet he is mad at us?

We have not been the ones who have brought our country to the brink.

[BootinUp]

24. Not by itself, its a team effort to be sure

All Americans have some responsibility for the state of things.

[madfloridian]

37. Wrong, the people of the Democratic party have done nothing

to take us to the brink where we are now. Most of us fought against it.

It is the military-oriented, fear-oriented right wing of the Democratic party who took us to the brink by voting to invade a country who never harmed us.

I take NO blame for it. None. Zero.

Now I hear our leading candidate saying we need to fight "the New War".

[Dr Fate]

52. Team DLC and team Blue Dog maybe-Team GOP/media for sure- but not the anti-war DEM base.

No sir- we were and are 100% correct when it comes to opposing Bush's right-wing war in Iraq.

Sorry, but I cant share the blame with the DLC,"Blue dogs" and GOP/media for this one.

[BootinUp]

69. I would suggest

that the left base failed to convince enough people they were right, and that is their part in it.

[Dr Fate]

73. I agree- stone cold facts were not as appealing to DLCers and Bluedogs as Bush's lies were.

I agree- we did fail to convince the DLC and the bluedogs to have our backs on Iraq- I guess Bush's lies were more appealing than stone cold facts.

If the ENTIRE DEM party- elected "centrists" included- had gone with the facts instead of of attacking the DEM base and agreeing with Bush media- we might not be in this mess.

You are right-DEMS could have made the case against the war if we had been united- instead we had "centrists" who sided with the liars and joined them in attacking what you call "the left base."

If only the rest of the party had agreed with what you call the "left base"-who were 100% correct, instead of agreeing with Rush Limbaugh. Fox news and George Bush-who were 100% incorrect.

[BootinUp]

86. Why don't more people join

with the "left base"?

If we are only using "FACTS" it seems that this should be easy to accomplish.

[Dr Fate]

93. I dont know why DLCers & "centrists" sided with Bush & FOX news and ignored the facts. You tell me.

Why didnt DLCers & Blue dogs side with the people who were and still are 100% right on Iraq?

No wait- I do know why- it must be because they are either "in on it"-that is, they actually agreed with Bush, FOX news and Rush Limbaugh, or even worse, they were "fooled" because they stupid enough to trust Bush and the Republican owned media.

They supported & seem to continue to prolong a war based on lies, the base opposes that and always has.

Its pretty simple the "Left Base" you attempt to disparage was 100% correct, while the chumps or collaborators at the DLC and in the so-called "center" you seem to be trying to cover for were 100% wrong.

Are you really trying to say that Bush, FOX news and the DLC/centrists DEMS were right about WMDs and all that other crap? LOL!!!-I thought even the Republicans had ceased this forged argument.

Sorry, but the blame isnt on the people who opposed Bush, it's on those politicians who supported him & trusted him.

[BootinUp]

107. I will only bang

my head against a brick wall so many times.

[Dr Fate]

111. If only the "centrists" had been that terse & stubborn against Bush.

As opposed to having his back on the war, while joining them in marginalizing what you call "the left base"- who were 100% correct.

As it is, they opposed the facts and went with the liars- who were 100% incorrect.

I blame pro-war politicians who listened to the liars and ignored the truth, not anti-war voters, or even pro-war citizen voters...

[antigop]

20. Sirota: Steny Hoyer's Hostile Takeover

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/5/3/123758/5207

>>
But then, we shouldn't be surprised by Hoyer's behavior. As I document in my new book Hostile Takeover, Hoyer has long led the charge to emasculate the Democratic Party. Whether on economic policy, on the war, on trade policy or on just generally selling out to Big Money interests, Hoyer has self-servingly gone out of his way to undermine his party. Put another way - if you are looking for one of the root causes of the Democratic Party's problems, look no further than Steny Hoyer.
>>

[democratsin08]

26. hoyer

he sounds like a jerk. is he an obama supporter?

[MadHound]

29. Hey Hoyer, you want to know why we're mad?

Because dumb fucks like you want to continue playing political games with people's lives. You and most of the Congressional Dems are too worried about their sorry ass careers to do the goddamn right thing, end the war and stop the death and destruction.

Congressional Dems can stop the war via defunding, but they are so enamored of their cush ass jobs that they are willing to sacrifice thousands of people's lives to keep them. Besides, the war is a good sucker's ploy to rope the rubes in. It worked in '06, "Elect Dems to majority status and we'll end the war." Now the cry is that they can't end the war until they have an even larger majority and a Dem in the WH. Yet that is utter horseshit and they know. They're using the death of innocents and destruction of an entire country to garner more power to themselves. Fucking sick if you ask me.

And Steve, if you don't like that pesky base holding Dems accountable, tough shit. For many of us, death and destruction isn't a political ploy.

[ShortnFiery]

32. Too bad Steny - YOU work for US!

What a maroon! :rofl:

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stimbox]

36. Base to Hoyer

[Arugula Latte]

38. ...and to that may I add a gnome mooning:

[Cronopio]

39. Well Steny, how about we vote your arrogant ass out of office ...

... and you won't have to deal with your pesky little base anymore. Deal?

[JNelson6563]

41. Well Steny, I'm here to tell ya

as a member of the base I don't particularly care how you fell about me. In fact, I think it's time you start thinking about how I and my fellow commoners feel about you. I know, it's a novel concept, I'll give ya a sec to let it sink in.....

Arrogant asswipe.

Julie

[Progressive Friend]

42. A majority of independents oppose the war in Iraq too

So he might as well be mad at them too. The only political group that has majority support for the war are: Republicans. Does he want THEIR votes? Perhaps he should join their party!

[tigereye]

43. at least when the DNCC called this time to ask for dough

they pitched it as "money to elect more Dems for a veto proof majority" ....

I don't think he should be mad at the base - they elected him and other legislators and worked their asses off to do so.

[madfloridian]

51. We donate to the DNC because of Dean's efforts

to take the power structure out of DC and into the states.

[tigereye]

53. fair enough

I never had any concerns about them until I started reading posts here.

I always give the callers an earful, just so they know they have a very unhappy left base. I think they are actually listening, at least to some extent.


I told em to call me anytime, and I'll give em chapter and verse about how popular they are here on DU! :rofl:

[madfloridian]

55. So you think DU is unfriendly to the DNC and Dean? Glad to see it admitted

I am glad someone else noticed.

What he is trying to do is a first...and the power structure in DC doesn't like it.

You would think DUers might respect it and at least donate...but not true.

You just never know do you?

I guess too many here don't know the difference in the committees. :shrug:

So you got concerns about the DNC at a Democratic forum. I knew that was hsppening here but no one admitted it.

DU is very much against the one group that is trying to work for them.

[tigereye]

59. well, not DU, but a lot of folks who post here...

I don't know enough about it really to have a strong view either way.

[Dr Fate]

44. In other words, most voters & taxpayers are out of step with congress. Screw that coward.

Let me guess- this idiot is a "blue dog" or even a DLCer- right?

[Carrieyazel]

54. No, he isn't a blue dog. He considers himself a moderate liberal

He wrongly voted for this catastrophe of course, just like Hillary did. But at least he didn't give as awful a speech as Hillary's contemptible Shrub/Birdshot talking point speech back in 2002.

Bad move by Steny, but Hillary is even worse.

[madfloridian]

57. Yes, he is a Blue Dog.

http://democraticleader.house.gov/media/2006_presidential_budget/bluedogs.cfm

[Dr Fate]

58. I'm not so sure of that. Google "Hoyer" and "DLC" together. Suprise! The DLC LOVES him.

Birds of a feather, birds of a feather.



http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=hoyer+dlc&btnG=Google+Search

[antigop]

56. Nov.13, 2006 DLC: Al From: Hoyer for Majority Leader

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=86&subid=84&contentid=254108

[Dr Fate]

60. It's no secret at DU that DLCers and their ilk cant stand the hard-working DEM base.

That's why they supported-and continue to support Bush's war, and constantly trashed Liberals and anti-war moderates as "far left-nut jobs" even though we were 100% correct and DLC/GOP was 100% wrong.

It's why they supported Joe Lieberman (I-3rd party)over lamont (D) as well.

[antigop]

75. I'm not sure that everyone on DU understands that...... n/t

[Dr Fate]

76. Then by all means- help me remind them. n/t

n/t

[antigop]

78. I try to expose the DLC whenever I can. n/t

[Dr Fate]

79. Then you are doing God's work. Carry on my friend!!!! n/t

n/t

[nealmhughes]

61. So, we can't be "real Democrats" because it might frighten the horses?

So, in order to win Congress and the Presidency in 2008, we must not offend, and then what do we do in 2010 to keep the offense factor low?

Steny, by your logic, we will never get out of Iraq unless we have a veto-proof Senate. Actually, all we need is 50% plus one to stop funding the war in the House -- where you serve. It is mighty hard to fight a war with no funds going to it.

Let's just adopt a Frist Phrase and call it "the nuclear option."

Go ahead, shut the House down -- you do nothing but consume oxygen in DC right now anyhow. Would we even notice?

Say it is over something else if you must, but either crap or get off the pot. Status quo when it sucks isn't a status I wish to be in at all.

[donkeyotay]

65. Must be working on that 11% approval rating. nt

[antigop]

80. Sirota: "Moderation"= Extremist Refusal to End the War

http://www.workingassetsblog.com/2007/09/moderation_extremist_refusal_t.html

>>
As we can see so clearly here, the term "moderate" in Washington when it comes to the war means guaranteeing that whatever bill takes center stage in the war debate - well, that "none of this leads to the end of the war." It means making sure that we "depart from the polarized debate over whether and when to withdraw troops" - you know, the debate over the actual issue, the debate that the latest Gallup Poll shows almost two-thirds of America wants Congress to have - and wants Congress to conclude by passing binding timetables to end the war.

As I have written before, when you look at actual public opinion data, you see that the terms "moderate" and "centrist" in Washington are wholly and completely divorced from the terms "moderate" and "centrist" out in the rest of the country. The term "moderate" may be defined in the dictionary as "avoidance of extremes or excesses" but in D.C. it means the opposite - embrace of extremes or excesses, in grinning defiance of what the public wants.

And that's what it is. When it comes to the war, the so-called "moderates" have taken on the qualities of the smiling Darth Vader-ish poster boy for extremism - Dick Cheney. Remember, it was our Vice President who told ABC News last year the Iraq War "may not be popular with the public - it doesn't matter." I guess he's a "moderate" now too.
>>

[Dr Fate]

81. DLC: "Centrist"= Supporting FAR RIGHT , multi-billion $$$$ wars based on lies & propaganda. n/t

n/t

[antigop]

82. Sirota: "Debunking Centrism"

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050103/sirota

>>
Is this really true? Is a corporate agenda really "centrism"? Or is it only "centrist" among Washington's media elite, influence peddlers and out-of-touch political class?
>>

[Dr Fate]

83. "Centrism" is what ever DLCer supporters of Bush's war say it is.

If supporting Bush's far right war means supporting multi-billion dollar wars based on lies, and continuing to oppose the majority of voters, including TRUE moderates, then that is "centrist".

If the DLC agrees with Rush Limbaugh and others on the far-right that Bush should be protected against impeachment, then that too is a "centrist" concept to them.


They have to warp the political spectrum beyond recognition in order to frame their support of the far-right as "centrist."

[tom_paine]

84. The Democrats don't have a base anymore. They've disowned it.

They have money enough to generate a hologram of an illusion of a party of opposition.

And I have had enough.

[Baby Snooks]

85. What does he care about the base beyond the money they send in?

If he spent his time at Town Hall meetings around the country instead of spending it at breakfasts, lunches and dinners around the country with lobbyists raising money for his PAC, you can draw your own conclusion as to why he is spending all his time with lobbyists, he might at least know how the base feels although honestly, obviously, he doesn't care. His attitude seems to be "Send in the the money and shut up." Same attitude of the DLC and of the majority of the party leadership around the country.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/2/21/1532/32678

He is centrist, liberal, moderate or progressive depending on who his audience is. And his audience doesn't include us obviously.

Visualize impeachment? Not as long as Pelosi and Hoyer are in charge. They like things just the way they are for some reason.

[Generator]

87. Wow they are like politicians without a country now

(yes that's a tip to Vonnegut)

And I think he and his ilk have it ass backwards. I know it's a big debate for some-I posted on it here-but I really think that NOT doing something on this war will cause them to not be elected again by Dems, and Independents. Those that they slavishly are selling out our country to are NEVER going to vote for them anyway.

Lose lose. They were elected to do something and if they don't, well why elect them again?! The American people aren't as stupid as that.

[paulk]

90. aside from the fact that this is an "unconfirmed citizen report",

as the article clearly states, and a report from someone who, if you read the original, clearly has an axe to grind, Hoyer makes a valid point. The "base" identified by Hoyer does have unrealistic expectations, even aside from the writer's twisting of "70% public opposition to the war" into approval for defunding the war.

Have you followed the events in the Senate today? We're still four votes short of stopping a Republican filibuster. The "base" blaming the Democrats for the actions of Republicans is something Hoyer has every right to be mad about.

I'm sorry that you're "mad" at Steny Hoyer, "Mad"floridian.

But, somehow, I'm not surprised... I mean, that is your name, isn't it?

[NaturalHigh]

91. What an idiot.

Ending this war would ensure a Democratic landslide next year.

Personally, I'm sick of excuses.

[madfloridian]

94. The Senate showed their low opinion of us today as well.

:shrug:

But they sure made Bush's base happy.

[depakid]

95. The beltway crowd really is thick

if they can't see that their declining poll numbers and their failure to take strong action are alienating MANY MORE independent and progressive voters that they'll EVER find among the ephemeral "moderates."

[gulliver]

96. Sorry. I gotta agree with Hoyer.

I lost a lot of faith in our base when they gave the Dem Congress low approval. The Dem base handed Bush and the Republicans by far their most significant victory in years. Bush senses it, and his approval numbers are up. A fair wind has lifted Bush's sails, and the name of that wind is the Dem base.

I want the war ended and Bush and the Republicans blamed, tarred, and feathered. The Dem base is making that impossible. Damned right they piss me off.

They need to think things through for a change. They need to be real liberals, logical, cool, compassionate. Any discussion of ending the war needs to take into account what happens afterward. Will there be massive civilian casualties in Iraq if we pull out right away? The Dem base doesn't act like they know or care. It is never even discussed. Pathetic.

Somehow braying about "troops dying" substitutes for thinking. Or at least I see no thoughtful words spoken amidst the braying. We need to realize that the troops are adults. Calling them "our kids" both condescends to them while all-too-obviously and smarmily pandering to the American electorate. If we want to be compassionate about the troops we need to see them for who they are and who they want to be. Then get angry, because the Bushies see them as pawns to be stroked, underpaid, forced to clean up after a worthless rich kid's historic mess, and later abandoned like anonymous stooges.

And what about the Iraqi people. "We are making things worse," you say. But what if we pull out and there is massive civilian bloodshed? Another Darfur. Personally I care about that. Am I going to do anything about it? No. But if we don't at least express concern for it, then we are being callous. That is not liberal, and it does not provide a foundation for anger at Bush for putting the Iraqis and us in such a position.

What about the oil? "Who cares about the oil?" Again, Democrats and liberals in general must register a proper concern for the oil. "It is their oil." True. "We do not shed blood for oil." True. But that doesn't make it an afterthought or irrelevant. Grown ups don't ignore facts. As with the civilian casualties, were liberals to recognize the importance of oil in their message, they would be in a position to focus a just and intense anger on the Bushies and GOP for putting the oil in jeopardy.

But we go on, superficially mouthing platitudes meant to make us seem sensitive and caring. We should try really caring -- about the whole picture.

[madfloridian]

99. Oh, my.

What can I say to that?

I have made it clear I am mixed about defunding....but I think Steny Hoyer respects Republicans more than his own party.

We are killing civilians, losing more military daily.

And I am tired of being lectured to by people who don't see the big picture.

[gulliver]

102. Sorry for the lecture.

I do think I see the big picture, though. A whole lot of the base thinks they are being righteous, and I think they definitely aren't. I don't like seeing our people, who are much better hearted (and usually better minded also) than the Republicans, fail. The Dem base needs to keep their anger focused where it belongs, squarely on Bush and the GOP. Any wavering, any misdirection of anger at anyone but the true culprits lets the culprits go.

Bush will escape. He has wanted to share blame for the war with Congress all along. Let's not help him.

If Bush were not president and the GOP had not controlled the Congress, there would have been no Iraq War. Saddam would be his toothless self. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis now dead or maimed would still be going about their business. Halliburton would be in receivership.

[madfloridian]

106. No, if our party is giving Bush his agenda....we must focus on them.

I see no reason for something like today happening in the Senate.

I see the full picture also. I am not stupid, and I am actually very moderate in many ways..always was.

Today we saw the rotten underbelly of our party and the fact they don't care about their base at all.

The lectures here about being proper and never insulting and seeing the whole picture....are a little obvious.

[madfloridian]

101. "superficially mouthing platitudes"

Yep...there's been a lot of that lately...and it ain't me.

[gulliver]

105. I wasn't talking about you.

I said "we." For the record, I am far from happy with the Dem Congress too. I'm disappointed they are not heroes and able to pull off "something" to get us out of Bush world and back on Earth. They are better than most people, but they are just people.

[BootinUp]

109. wow. Lots to think about there.

Thanks for the post.

[polichick]

103. Hey Steny...

Bite me!

[Lord Helmet]

108. Steny can bite me

[rodeodance]

112. and don't forget YOU ALL screwed up FISA!

[madfloridian]

113. Shucks, Steny, now you have all of them mad at us.

:shrug: