I hate Hillary haters.

[cyclezealot]

Even tho Hillary is too expedient for my tastes and near my last choice.And it will be a mistake to nominate her. Still, I hate Hillary haters. Her instincts are basically good, even if her political expediency often disappoints me. What can we do to combat Hillary haters.? Even tho I don't like Hillary's suck up positions, should she get the nomination , we all need combat the likes of those linked below.
$$

Vast army of 'Hillary haters' has claws outDALLAS - Richard Collins, a wealthy Texas philanthropist, businessman and political aficionado, heaps praise on the woman he has set out to destroy, Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.).

But make no mistake about it: Collins is just one in a vast army of professional "Hillary haters" who are banking on Clinton becoming the Democratic nominee. Like the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth in the 2004 election who denigrated John Kerry's military service in Vietnam, Collins and others are searching for just the thing that will crystallize the way voters think and feel about her.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-hillary_haters_bdaug26,0,5146766.story?coll=chi-newsbreaking-hed

[JTFrog]

1. Like them or not

they are the reality that her supporters keep telling us don't exist. I don't hate her, but I dread her winning the nomination.

[cyclezealot]

3. A question might be

does any Democrat have the mean streak needed to fight off the Swiftboaters. Sometimes, I wonder.

[JTFrog]

7. Yes, many.

I just wish they would get into the race.

[liberaldemocrat7]

44. I don't hate Hillary but I don't view her as a progressive

and I will not vote for her in the New York Primary. If she gets nominated New York appears a safe state so I may write in Al Gore or vote for her depending on my view at that point in Nov 2008.

[MethuenProgressive]

14. We need a candidate who will beat the GOP into the ground.

Obama wants to make nice and not fight, and we know what happened to Edwards last time.
I don't want to just beat the Republicans, I want them destroyed.
We need a fighter. We need Hillary Clinton.

[Tellurian]

39. I agree.I don't trust anyone but Hillary with my vote!

[karynnj]

19. How does a mean streak answer lies -

Democrats do not win a battle of dueling lies (if what you mean is attacking them in kind). They have an echo chamber that we do not have. In 2004, Kerry countered with far more impeccable back up on his service than has ever countered a campaign lie in the past. (official records, Nixon tape saying they found he was a hero, solid links between B/C and the SBVT) The SBVT provided no proof - yet the media played it as he said/ she said. If you think Clinton provided more to defuse all the 1992 attacks - only some of which were based on some truth, tell me what it was. In most cases, it came down to the media dropping the story.

There is a very serious question here. How do we help the Democrat, no matter who it is counter lies. The blogosphere is far more developed than in 2004 and we have tools like Utube that didn't exist then. It will still be a lopsided battle - unless the media is less Republican than in 2004.

One very good sign was that in 2006, swiftboating didn't work - the 3 vets targeted with lies about their service all won. The people in those districts rejected the candidates who used that tactic.

[CTyankee]

17. I am still waiting to see which Dem candidate can best fight the RW

I was leaning Edwards, then started leaning Clinton and now I don't know where to lean! I want a Democrat who can win, who won't flinch and will beat the wingnuts at their own game.

But I know what you mean about dreading Hillary's candidacy in the general. Not because she won't fight back a la Kerry, she will. But because the campaign will just disintegrate into one big brawl. But if she's the one who can win, I'm all for her.

IMHO, Edwards won't let himself be swiftboated like Kerry did. During the 04 campaign Edwards probably would have used better tactics against the Swiftboaters but Kerry probably nixed it. I like Kerry but I think he didn't respond correctly to his attackers and that cost him.

[Adelante]

28. The opposite

"Edwards probably would have used better tactics against the Swiftboaters but Kerry probably nixed it."

According to people in the K-E campaign, I think it was in the Boston Globe. They say they couldn't get Edwards to hit hard on this no matter how they tried. He just wouldn't.

[CTyankee]

29. I'll check with my son in law who is a political consultant in Boston.

He did focus groups in 3 states for the Kerry campaign. He is critical of Kerry's lack of stamina in the campaign, but I don't know what his take on Edwards is. Since Edwards is a seasoned litigator, I tend to doubt that he would back off a fight, but you never know!

Thanks for your input!

[politicasista]

31. The candidate didn't have party or media support

I don't think Kerry allowed himself to be swiftboated. I think his campaign underestimated the media's impact. But let's not let the ones that should have been doing the heavy work off the hook.

Where were the Democrats when the Swiftie smears/lies made the rounds? They should have been on all three cable networks and radio debunking the lies. They didn't but they expected Kerry to do everything all by himself without party or media support.

JMHO

[CTyankee]

36. But according to my SIL Kerry now feels guilty that he didn't defend what he cared so much about::

his service to his country and to his fellow troops in the field. That is cited as the reason he decided not to run again for president.

You are right that every Dem should have come to his support and I think many did. But it really was up to JK to immediately object strongly and respond forcefully. I don't know why he didn't; sometimes I think he was just too much of a gentleman.

[politicasista]

38. That's true, but it's the corporate media that didn't do their job

They should have been covering these, but instead they gave the smear liars more airtime.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5758982

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_oet&address=358x2555

The left-leaning pundits didn't do their job either. Yes, mistakes were made, but I think people are missing or underestimating the media's impact. We can keep trying to find the perfect, smear-free candidate, but without party or media support the candidate won't have a chance.

[CTyankee]

40. Thanks for the links. Reading them made me so sad.

Which is why I haven't decided who to support in the Dem primaries (not that my CT primary will matter much). I want our candidate to be a fighter. I see two candidates who meet that criteria and they are Clinton and Edwards. Clinton, because she has already withstood the worst they could throw at her. Edwards, because he would not have gotten where he did as a trial lawyer by making nice.

It's good to have other voices in the fray leading up to the big primaries, but in the end I want the toughest possible candidate, and one who can win in the general election.

[politicasista]

41. No problem

I agree with your post. Although I don't think the worst of the smears is over yet. We have to be prepared to call them smear liars for who and what they are.

[Adelante]

33. Maybe one of the Kerry supporters can confirm or not

I do remember reading a thread here on DU quite a while ago.

[Adelante]

34. I found it

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/02/18/edwardss_tough_talk_claims_of_04_disputed/?page=full

[cyclezealot]

2. a reason I fear Hillary should not get the nomination.

I fear she will be as ineffectual at fighting off the Swiftboaters as was Kerry. ? / I'd be happy to see her mature, vote better and remain in the Senate for years to come.

[avrdream]

4. And which candidate do you think is going to be able to handle

the swiftboating better than Hillary?

If any one person up there can show that they are able to rise above whatever the RW throws at them, it's Hillary Clinton. Hands down, no argument.

[cyclezealot]

5. last election proved Americans don't like flip floppers

Hillary has done some flip flopping seems to me.

[Enrique]

8. so has everyone

the flip flops are one size fits all.

For example, suppose Dennis got nominated, which I would love. Do you really think the GOP would fail to make a big deal about his 180-degree change on abortion rights?

If we don't nominate anyone who could be accused of flip-flopping, then we can't run a candidate.

[cyclezealot]

16. for christ's sake . he was born Catholic.

How many times does he have to explain this change of conscience. His sister persuaded him of how the world really works. He is still actually opposed to abortion. he just does not believe in inflicting his morals onto others. His flip flops are much less cyclical than Hillarys. Hillarys are every couple months, DK's is more like over a 20 year time frame. Almost a generation. I can't think of one other Kucinich flip flop.

[Enrique]

20. it doesn't matter if you can think of the flip-flops

the GOP will think of them.

And every one of them will have an explanation, as do the flip flops of the other candidates. It doesn't matter. The GOP will label the democratic candidate a flip-flopper.

[BeyondGeography]

13. Watch out, you'll be labelled a HATER for that

:P

[Clintonista2]

23. "Flip-Flopping" wasn't the problem, the problem was Kerry's inability to escape labels

Hillary knows how to deal with swift-boaters, Kerry didn't.

[politicasista]

24. And Kerry didn't have media or party support

when the liars and smears made the rounds. The party just sat on their behinds and did nothing.

[MonkeyFunk]

9. Clinton's been fighting them or 15 years

and winning.

[Dawgs]

10. What has she won?

[William769]

11. Eight years as First lady, Two term Senator.

Front runner of the Democrats in the Presidential election. Just to mention a few.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

43. This coming from a supporter of a candidate who needed a scandal to win a senate primary

;)

[sandnsea]

6. six years of losing

While John Kerry has won on SCHIP, energy policy, vets' benefits, and continues to demand a deadline in Iraq.

What has she done that matters?

It isn't good enough to pretend you fight off the right wing when the truth is you only fight personal attacks and let the right have free rein on the actual policies that affect us.

Telling the truth about someone is NOT swiftboating.

[MethuenProgressive]

12. Are the HillHaters actually FOR anybody?

DU is loaded with posters who post almost nothing but HillHate.
Makes one wonder if they're actually backing any other candidate at all.

[William769]

21. They are. The GOP. NT

[iamahaingttta]

15. I hate the Hillary hater haters.

I also hate the Hillary lovers. I just don't get them. I hate the Hillary lover haters as well. And the Hillary hater lovers are probably the worst. I also hate Hillary. Well, not hate, but strongly dislike. I dislike the Obama lovers almost as much as I hate the Hillary lover haters, and I can't stand the Obama haters. The Edwards lovers are all just so cute, but the Edwards haters are almost as hateful as the Hillary hater lovers. Nobody loves or hates Richardson or Dodd, or those other guys, and then there's Maude... I mean Kucinich.

(Yes, it's true, I believe it is ALL totally ridiculous! Not as ridiculous as the Republan field, but ridiculous none-the-less.)

[cyclezealot]

18. ^ cute.

[AngryAmish]

25. I hate those who hate the Hillary hater haters.

[TSIAS]

26. And I hate you

:smile:

just kidding

[Capn Sunshine]

37. oh yeah? I hate everyone

your move, T.

:hi:

[Colobo]

22. I hate Obama haters. With passion, I should add.

:)

[LittleClarkie]

27. I think that is why the victim of the SBVT attacks, Kerry, came out in support of Hillary

when she was unfairly attacked, even though he has had reason not to be terribly fond of the Clintons.

I don't have to like her to defend her if she is being wronged.

[AtomicKitten]

30. I hate all haters.

But that's not quite the same thing as self-loathing (ha, ha) because I started thinking bad thoughts today about another candidate simply because one their supporters was behaving like an a-hole. Then I stepped back and decided I don't need to go there. I don't want to go there. Because it is almost certain one of our top three contenders will be sworn in on 1/20/09. Truth is, I may have a preference, but in the bigger scheme of things I don't really care which one. A Democrat will appoint the next Supreme Court justice(s) and that's something that is pretty damn good to know.

[JeffR]

32. I hate the flip and tiresome conflation of preference with hatred

I hate even posting about it.
:hide:

[David Zephyr]

35. Me, too.

Great photo of Dennis, by the way!

[ProudDad]

42. I prefer voting FOR someone

That's why I'm voting my values and principles. That's why I'm voting for Kucinich.

http://www.dennis4president.com/home/

http://www.dennis4president.com/go/issues/

I don't "hate" ObamClintWards -- I just don't think they represent my values or the values of the majority of Americans. They are more of (and a little less) of the same-o, some-o... No real change there.