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"This is Just GREAT, Man! GAME OVER!!!"

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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 09:20 PM
Original message
"This is Just GREAT, Man! GAME OVER!!!"
Edited on Thu Aug-23-07 09:25 PM by NanceGreggs
The title is a line from Aliens. It was spoken by one of the crew members stranded on a hostile planet, surrounded by voracious take no prisoners extra-terrestrials, as his colleagues struggle desperately to devise ways to secure their stronghold and gain the upper hand.

This stereotypical character shows up again and again in such movies; the guy who is of no use in helping the situation because he’s too busy bitchin’ about the good fight already being a lost cause.

Funnily enough, that line pops into my head on a regular basis as I peruse DU these days. Gee, I wonder why.

I, like many others I’m sure, got involved with DemocraticUnderground because it was a place to discuss our political beliefs, spur active participation in the process, analyze where change was necessary and seek ways to implement that change and – last, but certainly not least – a site based on supporting the Democratic agenda and electing our own to office.

However, over the past few weeks, I am struck by the number of OPs that contain nothing more than a diatribe about how our current Democratic office-holders are spineless back-stabbers intent on destroying their party, and the entire country in the bargain.

Am I pissed-off about some of the actions of our Democrats of late? Damned real. And I’ve sent them emails to let them know exactly how I feel, in no uncertain terms.

That may get their attention; or it may not. The voice that speaks up has a chance of being heard and heeded; the voice that doesn’t speak up NEVER gets heard.

It is, in my opinion, paramount that we speak up, loudly and clearly.

Let me give but one example of why it is important for constituents of the respective parties to hold their representatives’ feet to the fire, instead of acquiescing to the game over philosophy: Imagine that the Republicans had deluged their party powers-that-be with angry emails, phone calls, letters and petitions every time they veered away from the GOP principle of fiscal responsibility. If elected Republicans thought they would lose the support of their constituents if they strayed from that philosophy, we would have been out of Iraq years ago.

The Republicans in charge of the purse-strings would have simply stated (rather than lose the support of their own come election time): “Sorry, Mr. President. As much as we might agree with your Noble Cause, having taken a good look at the bank balance, it is obvious we just can’t afford this venture.” End of discussion – end of the occupation of Iraq.

Of course, that didn’t happen; it didn’t happen because the Republican voters, for whatever reason, have become apathetic about insisting that their elected reps adhere to party principles.

I fear that this is where we are headed, if we choose to take the game over road, instead of making our voices heard. And if you think in terms of they don’t listen, so why bother, please think again. Imagine it in terms of your own job. You make an executive decision, and your office is flooded with WTF were you thinking? emails from the company shareholders. You might start thinking that maybe – just maybe – an attitude adjustment, along with a change of course, might be in order if you still hope to be employed after the next round of personnel reviews are conducted. By the same token, if you hear nada from anyone, you obviously take the silence as agreement with your actions.

Personally, I tend to read the posts in the Editorials & Articles forum, in order to be apprised of what is being said by the journalists, the pundits, et cetera. However, what I see more and more of lately is a constant barrage of editorials whose basic message is The Dems ARE BLOWING IT!. This would be helpful to our party, and our cause, if it was posted in the spirit of this is what is wrong, and needs fixing, as opposed to being a vindication of the OP’s belief that all is lost – and here’s yet another article that proves him right.

Don’t misunderstand me; I am against censorship of any kind, and have no problem with such editorials being posted here. But should they not serve as a trigger to discussion about how to determine ways to change the course of our party before it hits the predicted iceberg, rather than being used as justification for yet another call to abandon ship?

I had the same argument with some posters during the lead-up to the mid-terms last November, those who insisted on posting in every positive thread about a candidate’s gain in the poll numbers with the same plaintiff cry: “It doesn’t matter, because Diebold has already decided on a GOP victory,” or, “Don’t bother getting excited, because Karl Rove has the math.”

As I argued at the time, it is one thing to say vote fraud is a problem, so be aware of it, and quite another to say it’s a done deal, so don’t bother voting.

Of course, as things turned out, Rove’s math turned out to be nothing more than smoke-blowing. But we’ll never know how many people didn’t vote in the mid-terms because a well-meaning friend had advised them of the futility of casting their ballot for a Democrat.

We, as Democrats, have never been in a better position to retake the White House, and largely expand our majority in the House and the Senate.

The majority of our fellow citizens have finally realized the futility of persisting in Iraq, along with the fact that the threats we face domestically – in terms of lowered education resources, job losses, the economy, the national debt, and our crumbling infrastructure – now far outweigh any threat from beyond our own borders.

Recent surveys now show that the number of voters identifying themselves as Democrats far outweigh those identifying themselves as Republicans, a drastic change that has come about only since BushCo was installed in office.

The time has never been more ripe for a Democratic sweep than it is at this very moment – and yet I constantly hear the cry of ”GAME OVER!”, the rallying cry of the already-defeated, the already-enslaved – the very people who will scream the loudest when their party is yet again in the position of fighting an endless uphill battle against the Republican majority that they themselves helped come to fruition.

Regardless of my anger and my frustration, I plan to support my party members and work to ensure that a Democrat is inaugurated in January 2009 – whether he or she is my personal choice or not.

I will also work to ensure that Democrats hold an overwhelming majority in Congress, whether I am angered by them now or not.

That is because I, for one, would rather argue with, scream at, hurl invectives at, and demand change from people who are in a position to do something about it than people who are, due to their minority position, not in a position to do anything at all.

That’s my two-cent contribution, for what it’s worth.


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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's a good two cents worth.
K&R
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. I with you
and I love your Mandelbrot transformation!
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iconocrastic Donating Member (627 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #8
88. Too long to read all of it - does it extend to infinity?
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
73. Right, cheers sweetie, thanks a lot.
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. "Why don't we just put NanceGreggs in charge?!"
:rofl: :hi:
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Because if NanceGreggs was in charge ...
... she would make pig-latin the official language of the government (that way they'd be too frustrated to add all of those sneaky addendum to bills before passage).

It's a shaky plank in my presidential platform, but I think it has merit.

:hi:
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. Why Not Go For Actual Latin?
That way you'd even pull in the Opus Dei folks to vote for you!
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abq e streeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. On the money as usual
Thanks to you for once again being a voice of intelligence and common sense.
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rwheeler31 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. Molly would be proud of your writing . thanks
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Thanks, rwheeler31!
As you probably already know, any comparison to Molly is, for me, the highest accolade.

But lately I feel that if Molly were in a position to act on her druthers, she'd be busy visiting some DUers in order to personally smack them upside the head with a 2' by 4'.

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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I agree with you completely
That said, I have to refer to the venerable Bill Cosby on this one, dear, kind woman, we must have our beatings so that we may sleep well. This is the DU equivalent - the Cassandra Complex self flagellation run up to the primaries thing. It's what we do each and every time. Some even leave and never come back or come back later. New people sign on, the mood shifts a bit and then something big like a run up to a primary comes again or a new Pope gets selected and we're back at it. For, without it, we cannot sleep...........

I'm blessedly busy with moving and picking out furniture on Craigslist. I think it might be a better use of my time right now. Primaries are pretty much not an issue up in the great NW, even with our new, nifty earlier voting. We just aren't the deciders on that one. So, I'm saving up my juice for the real thing. Hopefully, that will include Al Gore (it will, it will, it will!!). I think it'll happen in about two more weeks. I can't wait to see what happens here when he announces. Oh, wait, I know what will happen. It will crash as big as it has ever crashed and then we'll be at level whatever for a long time after and there will be drunken jubilation and singing in the Lounge. There will be much singing in the lounge.

Ah, nice.
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Frisbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
68. I think...
I think a 2" x 4" would suffice, but point taken! :P
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Irishonly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. K&R
:kick:
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Hollow Shells Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. Great movie, great post, K&R, N/T
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. You are obviously familiar with the movie ...
... so you'll appreciate the closing line I was going to use, but thought better of it.

If we're going to destroy our own party, instead of doing it by small increments, "I say we take the shuttle and nuke the whole thing from space. It's the only way to be sure."

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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. Soon, that's what you'll hear from the Republicans
Edited on Thu Aug-23-07 09:53 PM by cobalt1999
It'll sound a whole bunch sweeter then. :)
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NancyBreen Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. Nance, we all have been waiting for these words of
wisdom. How fortunate they came from mind and spirit of NanceGreggs. As usual, eloquently and succinctly written. I do hope you publish some day.



:loveya:
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ladym55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks for your words of common sense
We need a wake-up call once in awhile!

:hi:
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks Nance we all need to be reminded that
we all want the same thing....and we are all on the same team....


The Game is not Over.....far from it....we are fighting among ourselves not against the rat bastards Rethuglicans.....

Winning is the name of the game!!

I believe another great Saying is "GAME ON" lets go kick their asses out of DC!!!

Well done Nance!
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Proud Liberal Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Why ARE we fighting so much amongst ourselves?
Every minute spent fighting amongst ourselves deprives us of a minute we could use to attack Bush, Republicans, et. al. and it's another minute that they have free to plot and hatch their nefarious schemes against us and the American people. Why don't we all start by unifying ourselves around, if nothing else, opposition to Republicans and their agenda?
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
76. You are exactly right! And that my friend is what the Rethuglicans
are using as a weapon against us.

<snip>
unifying ourselves around, if nothing else, opposition to Republicans and their agenda?
<snip>

This should be the Democratic slogan....for 2008.
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. What a relief! Common sense, please prevail.
Thank you, Nance. Honestly, we needed that.
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Aviation Pro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
17. Nance....
...I think an even more powerful image out of Aliens is that of a kick-ass woman (Sigourney Weaver as Ripley) taking charge and taking names later. (Perhaps this is a subtle endorsement)?

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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
18. You're forgetting the rest of the movie
Only Ripley, Hicks and Newt make it out...and then only Ripley, infected.

The doom and gloomers are NOT the problem. Our reps ARE. The people the call for us to shut up about our reps and "give them a chance" are helping to sink the ship.

Am I a doom and gloomer? Yes. As a doom and gloomer, I can tell you two important things:

1. I WILL vote straight dem, as I have since I started voting.

2. As things stand, my vote will mean nothing, because they know I have no one else to vote for.

Let's look at our top 3 candidates. Any anti-war stuff going on there? Any anti-Military Industrial Complex stuff going on? Paper ballots? Fairness Doctrine and anti-trust enforcement? Assurances of wealth and legal protection moving down the ladder to the people down here at the bottom?

Anyone listening at the top to what people like me are saying? Didn't think so.

What about that Habeas Corpus thing? Domestic spying repeal? No going to Iran? *sigh*

Oh, wait...I think I hear something...it sounds like..."...Shut up and do what you're told!"

Do we have to be put in camps to really get how deep in trouble we are??? To get how far we've gotten from our ideals???

Maybe those ideals didn't mean that much to some of us. If that's the case...ignore us doom and gloomers and let the dream die.

"Experience declares that man is the only animal which devours his own kind; for I can apply no milder term to the governments of Europe, and to the general prey of the rich on the poor."

Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Colonel Edward Carrington (January 16, 1787)
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Hicks, Ripley and Newt made it home just fine
That other movie DOES NOT EXIST. And don't try to tell me otherwise.

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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. And don't forget Bishop! n/t
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Good point -- how anti-Synthetic of me
:dunce:
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. I prefer the term "anti-artificial person". n/t
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. heh -- not bad for a human
;)
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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
63. Well, sort of half-Bishop.
:)
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #22
46. So the semi-decent Aliens 4 and the atrocious Aliens vs. Predator don't either?
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 10:13 AM by YOY
I could stand that line of thinking...

Forgive me but I like Jean-Pierre Jeunet's cinematography...it's trippy...even if the story left much to be desired...
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. If I may?
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 02:18 AM by NanceGreggs
"The people the call for us to shut up about our reps and 'give them a chance' are helping to sink the ship."

I hope that was not a reference to me, because I'm certainly not telling anyone to shut up - quite the contrary. And I would point out that the guy running around the sinking ship yelling "we're all gonna die, man" isn't doing too much of value either, is he?

You say you will vote, knowing you vote will "mean nothing". Then why are you bothering - and that is not a snarky come-back, but a sincere and honest question. If all is already lost, why vote - and why bother participating in a Democratic website?

I do take issue with your statement: "Maybe those ideals didn't mean that much to some of us. If that's the case...ignore us doom and gloomers and let the dream die."

You are inferring that unless we all follow the "doom and gloomers", we obviously do not hold certain ideals as valuable - and we are willing to "let the dream die".

It's because I refuse to let the dream die that I am here.

Your post offers not one scintilla of hope, nor one call to action in fighting to make the dream a reality. If the dream is indeed dead, and there is nothing to be done to resurrect it, again I ask: Why are you here?

(And no, I didn't forget how the movie ended - but you obviously did. Ripley, Newt, Hicks and Bishop all survive, and Ripley is not 'infected' until the next film in the series.)

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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
39. You make the assumption that "Doom and Gloomers" are doing nothing to help
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 07:35 AM by tom_paine
That would be a mistaken assumption, not only in my case, but I am sure in many thousands of others.

In 2002 and 2006, I devoted at least a dozen hours to the Dems, while in 2004, that number had to be closer to 100. In all 3 "elections" I donated hundreds of dollars to the Dems and more than I could really afford, but it was just that important.

I have written at least a dozen letters and made at least 200 calls

Sure there are people, who do more, MUCH more. I know this. They might even do their much more while working a full-time job, as I did. I also know that even that realtive little bit, puts me in probably the top 1-3% of Americans in terms of committment to the Dems.

I am a "Doom and Gloomer" because I had the misfortune, even over half or two-thirds of DUers, of seeing EXACTLY what the Bushies were up to from Day One (and no, I am not implying that you weren't, Nance. Hell, I didn't even know you then!).

Because I have been making the Bush-Hitler comparisons since DAY ONE almost, and oh Lord the punishing abuse I took as a "Doom and Gloomer", yes, even here on DU.

Hell, I used to rack up those warnings like they were candy, I was verablly fighting so often, usually with the "anti-Doom and Gloomers" ripping me a new one for being so foolsih as to think 2001 was going to lead to the wholsale dissassembling of the System of Checks and balances. :silly: :silly:

Now, of course, that it is becoming clearer that is EXACTLY what is occurring, I don't get ripped on as much anymore.

I would rather have turned out to be wrong about their intentions and still be ripped as a Crazy Doom and Gloomer, than this growing acceptance of a horrific reality, that is likely to get a lot worse.

DOES UNDERSTANDING THE BRUTAL REALITY OF THE SITUATION MAKE ME LESS COMMITTED THAN MY ACTIONS SUGGEST? DOES IT AUTOMATICLLY MAKE ME A DO-NOTHING AND A GIVE-UPPER?

Does it negate all the time and work and effort, that, in the end, was me paying the Democratic Leadership for the privilege of working for them? Oh, and also the privilege of them looking at and talking about me like most DUers did in 2001, with contempt.

If you haven't noticed, them Democratic Leadership is still nearly as clueless as they were in 1998 about the Roots of Impeachment and what it portended, or in 2000 when they told us to sit down and be quiet while the Bushies sent Stormtroopers to beat up a Democratic Vote-Counter and shut the vote count down, or in 2002, when the Bushies showed the depths of heir depravity, and the brilliance of Goebbels v2.0, in using the Wellstone Funeral as they did, or in 2004, when they obeyed the Bushies and made sure that only pleasant, postive things were said at our Convention.

So, nance, you can have your opinion, but don't think for a SECOND that you have the "Doom and Gloomers" locked in terms of your understanding us.

I have no intention of giving up. But I WILL NOT deceive myself about the situation we are in, nor how the Democratic Party views it's own Base, as crazy conspiracy theorists not worth listening to.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #39
54. Thank you for putting it so well!
:yourock:
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #39
57. My mistake was using the term "doom-and-gloomers" ...
... which are someone else's words, not mine - and they connote something different than what I am talking about.

That is why I used the phrase "game over" in my OP; that is the crowd I'm taking about, people who are not only complaining (validly) about what is wrong in the party now, but feel the need to inject their pessimism into every future event or possibility. I'm talking about threads like What Issue Do You Think the Dems Will Cave On Next?", or "Here's another thing the Dems won't do anything about when the time comes."

THAT'S the Game Over crowd. They find it necessary to remind people, over and over, that all is futile - because the Dems are going to get it wrong EVERY time, so don't bother trying to influence their thinking or work for change. Don't bother with your petitions, or your phone-calls, or your emails - you will just be ignored every time.

This is why I brought up the pre mid-term posts, because it was that same kind of don't even bother mentality that was driving me up the proverbial wall. So many threads by excited posters when the candidate they'd been supporting went up 10 points in the latest poll - only to be met with the don't bother, your guy has already LOST thanks to Diebold replies.

There were many posts that dealt with the harsh reality of election fraud; they warned people what to watch out for if they were voting on such-and-such a machine, and added phone numbers to call in your area if something untoward happened, or you suspected your vote was flipped or not registered. THAT is facing the grim reality of possible election theft (along with the attendant doom and gloom about that particular issue), but forging ahead nonetheless -- forewarned and forearmed.

But what was declaring game over, before anyone even went out to vote, meant to accomplish here? Discouraging people from NOT voting at all, because the fix was in?

IMHO, being aware of the realities and getting pissed-off over them is
often the best catalyst for action, and action brings change. Alerting others to the realities of a situation, fraught with all of the anger and frustration (or doom-and-gloom) it makes you feel, is one thing. But projecting that anger and frustration into the future, into every possible action, vote, event (i.e. I just KNOW they're going to screw us, I just KNOW they're gonna cave on that issue), does nothing constructive.

The game over crowd, as I have used the term, is comprised of people who do JUST THAT. They cannot let a single discussion thread go by that reports good news for our party, or a gain for our cause, or a step towards our goals WITHOUT stepping in to tell everyone that their hopes for the future are bound to end in despair, and that their support for their party is pointless and will end in tears every time.

It is to THOSE people I say, "Why are you here?" If there's NO hope, why do you bother participating in a Democratic website?
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. I am one of those people
I was one of the people who posted on the "will the dems cave and give into Bush's request?"

I said they would, and I posted a supporting article that said that the powers that be are considering going with a "non-democratic" solution in Iraq. Great, another Saddam...and no Dem outrage.

Why do I belong to the doom and gloomers, and even the game overs, and still fight? Because I am not complicit. I'll fight until they take me away, but I want everyone to know EXACTLY where we stand, and what the people who are supposed to be reprisenting us are really doing.

Why do I play when I know we have a rigged sytem? Because it is essential that we do everything possible to save the ship. If the ship can't be saved with all our efforts, we can in good conscience and full effort create a new system without anyone dragging us down with calls of "but the ship can still be saved!"

This is not a game. Opting out is a vote for more of the same. Even so, we all need to know that there is a good chance that our efforts are futile, and why.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. Perhaps we are not understanding each other's terms ...
"Why do I belong to the doom and gloomers, and even the game overs, and still fight?"

As I have defined the game over people, they are the people who DON'T STILL FIGHT. Why? Because the game is over, and there's no point in continuing the battle that they insist is already a lost cause.

If you're talking about "still fight", then you are not one of the people I'm talking about.

There's a difference, IMHO, between "I may die fighting, the odds may be overwhelmingly against me, but I'll join the good fight anyway," and those who just accept defeat as a foregone conclusion - and encourage others to accept defeat as a foregone conclusion as well.

If you face the enemy and lose the battle, that's one thing. If you stand on the sidelines and yell, "Don't bother fighting because you're gonna lose no matter what," that's another.

No battle has ever been won by the side that didn't even show up.

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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #59
90. I said back in November that within a few months
we would bear witness to our party completely betraying us in Congress.

I do not have esp, nor did I wish for this outcome. It was simply obvious that our party leadership belongs to that other political organization that I call the War Party, but that perhaps ought to be called the corporate kleptocracy duopoly. We have a problem, a systemic problem, of complete pervasive corruption. That corruption blinds our system, marches it inexoribly down a path of policy choices that are leading our republic towards complete disaster. Yes this is a message of doom and gloom. I wish it weren't. I am not going to pretend that we have good choices in front of us when all we have is bad ones.

All of our annointed presidential candidates are part of the duopoly. None of them is proposing any policy initiatives that are more than slightly on the fringe of the standard washington consensus of neo-liberal economics and neoconservative triumphalism. That consensus view is what is leading us into disaster and we are not being offered any alternative course of action.
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AikidoSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #57
85. You make some good points, but there is that reality
that still has to be dealt with, and that is that the voting system is badly corrupted.

There has been no real and competent effort to get paper ballots for 2008. That should of
great concern to all of us. We need to face reality that that computer electrons are
invisible and cannot be tracked -- proving who won will again be impossible.

The public is primed by now to at least expect trouble and theft.

And for that reason Dems need to vote and in massive numbers. If we all make a commitment to
get high numbers of Dems to the polls, NO exit poll in the country will be able to withstand the
huge presence of declared voters who say that they voted Democratic.

But I still can't help worrying that we will be frustrated by yet another steal and the same
propaganda claiming that the Rpugs really won after all.

It's my nature to worry about these things... but I do agree with you that we should never
encourage anyone to give up -- we all have to do everything we can, especially working for
our candidates and voting.

I suspect that many of us are getting discouraged with a battle that looks like its too big to
win -- with all of these fixes in place. These fascists have huge networks of control in place
at every level -- not just the voting machines. You can feel, see, and taste the bitter truth of it.

It's hard to stay optimistic in this atmosphere -- and every failure of the Dem Congress to hold
the admin responsible makes us sick with grief and despair.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #39
65. Thanks Tom. That sums it up.
Its the reality that sucks.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #26
53. You answer anti-apathy thread asking why I haven't given in to it???


I vote because even the possibility that it might do some good is worth the effort to do so, which is also why I post here. If I can get even one person to wake up, my time was not wasted.

I do take issue with your statement: "Maybe those ideals didn't mean that much to some of us. If that's the case...ignore us doom and gloomers and let the dream die."

You are inferring that unless we all follow the "doom and gloomers", we obviously do not hold certain ideals as valuable - and we are willing to "let the dream die".


I see many here on DU that are willing to sacrifice their ideals(if they even had any) for the chance to win by adopting republican positions in the attempt to lure the voters in the middle in. In that same vein, I see calls for "politically smart positions" over democratic values.

Where this links to your OP is that you aren't seeing the value of the posts of the Doom and Gloomers. The doomers are a symptom of a sickness in the system...and because they are upset, like me, they are doing something about it, and will continue to do so. You may think the posts are calls to apathy, but really, they are a cry to fix the problem they are highlighting, such as voter fraud, blackmail, betrayal, triangulation and all the other things our system is spitting out.

As to whether you are the one of the people who are willing to let the dream die, only you can answer that. You are pushing for less whining and more action in your OP, which is admirable. I am pushing back, though, because many of us who are doom and gloomers are doing all of those things, with no results, and that needs to get airtime here. If 2008 is lost despite all of our efforts, I refuse to let it come as a surprise, as it has already happened that way in 2000 and 2004.

Your post offers not one scintilla of hope, nor one call to action in fighting to make the dream a reality. If the dream is indeed dead, and there is nothing to be done to resurrect it, again I ask: Why are you here?


I have made many calls to action here, and I am not here to bring hope. I am here to bring reality and how it can be changed. In not grasping what we are really doing, you have attempted to marginalize people that are speaking the truth...a most unfortunate thing. Tom_paine explains it so well that I have nothing to add to it.

Consider our words the next time you see a call for the lifeboats- it may be that time already.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. I took you at your own word ...
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 04:00 PM by NanceGreggs
... when you said "my vote will mean nothing". Now you're saying there's the "possibility that it will do some good".

Those are two different things.

I never should have used your term, "doom and gloomers", because that is NOT the same thing as "game over". The former is someone who is frustrated and pissed-off, but still might do something about it; the latter is someone who believes all is lost, every action is futile, every step towards effecting change destined for failure.

Again, those are two different things.

Please see my reply at #57 above - I think we've been talking at cross-purposes.
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onewholaughsatfools Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
69. Hola Nance,
well we all are gonna die at some point, but as you well know it's not gonna be today and as long as we walk upon this earth, we are obligated to do the best we can to help lift up one another. The worst thing I see is the walking dead and yes molly just may be holding a 2 x 4 in her hands.. Blessings
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
20. I think this is my favorite post of yours. Can I be your best friend?
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Bring it ON!
:hug:
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. I truly admire you as a writer, a thinker and a philosopher
I am amazed at how well organized your thinking process is.
I am also amazed at how utterly observant you are and how
adept you are at drawing sane conclusions from those observations.
In short, I'm proud to know you and I'm happy you're on our side!!!:hi: :thumbsup: :loveya: :loveya: :hug: :pals: :yourock:
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. WOW!!!
Here's a post I'm bookmarking for posterity.

Thank you SO MUCH!!! :blush:
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
21. I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit.
It's the only way to be sure.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. And then ...
BURKE: "Now hold on a second. I'm not authorizing that action.
I know this is an emotional moment, but let's not make snap judgments. First, this physical installation has a substantial
dollar value attached to it --"

RIPLEY: "They can bill me. I got a tab running. What's second?"


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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 03:50 AM
Response to Original message
32. This needed to be said!
Words of wisdom once again.

K&R
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 04:38 AM
Response to Original message
34. And, of course, you know I'm kicking and recommending this
because I feel the same damn way.

I don't believe in giving up.

It's my party and I'll cry if I want to

AND

I aim to misbehave.

Because Everybody Matters.

I'm so shameless sometimes.

:D
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
35. I think you are misunderstanding the problem that we face.
I don't hear a lot of folks giving up. I don't hear that AT ALL!

Here is what I see, as best as I can explain it.

A whole lot of folks, especially here, don't see this struggle that we are in as a partisan struggle anymore.

It is not about Republicans vs. Democrats anymore. It's only about fascism vs. anti-fascism.

There is NO NATIONAL PARTY that is opposed to fascism. Certainly, many in OUR party leadership are all for it. They believe in it.

So that is how I think many of us recognize the real tension in our national politics right now.

The only single thing that has happened recently, that might be considered constructive in helping to thwart these monsters, is that Lieberman has been exposed. Just six years ago, he was considered one of the most left-leaning and liberal leaders in our party. Look at his voting record. He, like many others in the party leadership, is perfectly happy to let gays marry each other, that's fine, just as long as we also make it OK to create a different class of subhumans that can be sent off into legal oblivion through extraordinary rendition. Don't you see?

You are confusing our refusal to be complicit in our country's headlong plunge into fascism as giving up. Not so.

We simply refuse to stop resisting.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. I disagree. We've still got one good party left.
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 05:40 AM by Perry Logan
I've noticed that the "game over" folks know almost nothing about what the Democrats have been doing. They seem to get most of their impressions from the mainstream media, which will assiduously avoid reporting anything good the Democrats have done.

Maybe what we have here is largely an education problem.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #36
44. If the party has done anything to oppose the Bush agenda...
it must have been done under the utmost secrecy.

I know of no such opposition to any of the Bush doctrine. Our party leadership supports the tax-cuts for the rich, the war for oil in Iraq, the spying on citizens, the torture, all of it.

What have they done that is so good?

I guess if they can get gay marriage passed, or if they can get the minimum wage up to where it's almost half a living wage, well I guess their work is done. We can just ignore all that slaughter of innocent folks. Why should the Democrats give a rat's ass about any of that? What's in it for them? They seem to be doing just fine by the party faithful. What's all the complaining about, really?

It's only a fourth of the Iraqi people that have been wiped out. But we're only just getting started. If the right Dem gets into the Whitehouse then all this can be accomplished a whole lot more efficiently. At least as long as no one tries to cut into the Exxon/BP/Halliburton profits, that is. Those companies stand to do a hell of lot better if the right Dem gets in.

Some people are just willing to settle for torture camps, I guess. At least they do not seem at all ruffled that nothing is being done by the Democrats to try and bring this government, that has run completely amok, back into compliance with international law, let alone our own domestic laws.

Maybe this is the real "game over" crowd. Those who seem to be just fine with all the "good things" that are being done.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. I could say it no better than you. I would trade in every guv benefit $$$ I ever got
for some ACTION TO SAVE OUR CONSTITUTION, OUR SYSTEM OF CHECKS AND BALANCES, AND THE OLD AMERICA THAT REALLY WAS THE BEACON OF FREEDOM, for all our faults and flaws, no nation is wholly good nor perfect in justice.

But ours was pretty damned great, until 12/12/2000, the Day Everything Changed.
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Just-plain-Kathy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
80. Usrename and tom_paine, You both express what I feel.
...And you both do it so eloquently.

:applause:



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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
67. If you refuse to stop resisting ...
... you're not declaring that the game IS over, are you? My point exactly.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
37. Oh, I agree that we should not give up. But let us not be unrealistic about our chances.
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 07:06 AM by tom_paine
It clouds our minds with futile optimism when we should be thinking about exit strategies.

"Just ignore that little man and he will go away." That was the version of futile optimism in Germany 1936. How'd that work out for them, again?

What you are saying, Nance, is ultimately true. WE MUST KEEP FIGHTING UNTIL THE LAST.

But the game IS very nearly over. Paradoixically, it is very nearly over even though we can only see 40% of what will ultimately be the Bushies' Final Solution for Amerika, even though that tranisiton is only 40% complete and the final picture still unclear in detail.

Let me tell you something, Nance, in mid-2006, I said to everyone I knew and probably posted on DU, too What's my worst nightmare? If we win the November 2006 election and nothing substantial changes anyway.

Even now, I am still trying to hold out hope that it isn't true, but then there the evidence of my lying eyes and ears, not to mention one BIG mountain of dry powder.

There is only one fact, but it is a HUGE one, and that is the Democratic Party, the Leaders especially, have almost as little regard for the Democratic Base as the Bushpublics. And EVEN if that isn't true, certainly it cannot be disputed that they FEAR us, or our pathetic letters and calls - Nance, I have made hundreds of them myself, all futile...ALL - not 1% of how they fear the Bushies and the Bush Party-Loyal Sub-media and Lie Laundry!

We might wonder if there are ulterior reasons why this is so (fear of anthrax, fear of Wellstoning, trapped in the same bubble of unreality the Bushies weave for their followers, or WHATEVER the reason would turn out to be), but the bottom line is THIS IS SO.

Clearly, losing half their phone-bankers and precinct walkers in 2008, is NOTHING to being scolded by Billo or displeasing the folks who pay the bills (not us) or whatever other myriad paybacks the Loyal and Royal Bushies are famous for delivering, sometimes lethal.

It is the way it is, and unless something happens between now and the beginning of primaries of a Congressional-prosecutorial nature, which I feel quite confident in saying WILL NOT HAPPEN to any in the Royal Bushie Inner Circle of Fiends...but if it does by some miracle, it will continue to be the way it is, even in the unlikely event a Democrat is permittied to ascend the Imperial Throne in 2008.

Let me say again: I AGREE with nance that we should NEVER GIVE UP. I only disagree with her that the Democrats are in a Minority Position, and that we should forgive them for behaving like the German Social Democrats when Hitler shook his fist at them.

Sorry, Nance, but that's my two cents.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
61. We Dems, We Americans, are like the woman whose husband...
...leaves her after a long marriage. The relationship was so good for so long. She remembers the days when they did *everything* together. She doesn't know what she did to cause him to leave her. But now she's on her own and trying to figure out how she'll survive. She's trying to keep a stiff upper lip, for the world to see. But inside, she's devastated. But, by golly, she's going to keep smiling. That would, metaphorically, be a lot of Dems these days, who are determined to save a sinking ship by putting on their lifejackets, joining arms and singing "For Those in Peril on the Sea."

I am not being sarcastic here. I am running through what has been going through my mind since 2000, and especially since November 2006. I tried to be hopeful when the Dems won their majority back then. I waited until January when things were going to happen, but never did. I am not a quitter. I also have kept writing letters and making calls, and have seen no change.

We the People have always relied on "throwing the bastards out" when our elected leaders don't do their jobs. Now we are left with one more "hurrah" in which we're going to have an election and change things! Maybe we'll get to have the election. Maybe it won't be stolen again, if we do. Other than bloody revolution (not advocating it; dont expect it), elections are about our only tool for taking back our country. Many of us have been played for the fool one time too many. We get our hopes up, the Dems step into power (limited though it be), and we're left wondering *who* it is running our country. We begin to feel a little (a lot) paranoid that all those conspiracy-theory ideas about a wicked cabal pulling strings behind the curtain are not so crazy after all. We're puzzled about exactly what fears *are* driving the bizarre inaction we see from our Dem leaders.

I think, and I post, about the parallels between now and the Nazi era, and I know in doing so that many people reading such references just dismiss it out of hand as the febrile ramblings of an older generation who can't get over the high drama of that period. Dissenting, I insist that we are seeing history repeating itself, and the future does not look good unless we are able to wrest power back from a well-entrenched and well-funded power structure.

I think that what some here see as negativity at DU is possibly our best hope for change. We need to "act out" *now*, to let the Dems see we are not pleased -- more, that we are enraged at their failure to act. To join together in Democratic party loyalty and shame any voices that are singing off key only tells the Dems in power that we're not going to cause them any problems, that they're assured of victory in 2008, and that no opposition will stand in the way of their continuing to surrender our lives and our liberties to an illegal war and a corrupt power structure.

A general strike is in the works. Could we actually....

I consider "The Little Engine that Could" from my childhood bedtime story: "I think I can; I think I can...I *know* I can," as the little engine made it to the top of the hill. We have to keep chugging. I just think that realistically strident voices need to get a lot louder, if we hope to save the country. This isn't the stuff of tea party nicety. "It" can happen here...is happening here.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
38. WHAT MINORITY POSITION?
Just exactly what minority position are you talking about. We have a solid majority in the house, and pretty much break-even in the senate.

Exactly what has been accomplished? Well, we get hearings WHERE EVERYONE IN THE WORLD could hear what BRAZEN LIAR our attorney general is, but what is the consequence? Nothing.

We get new wiretap bills, new Iraq funding, just exactly WHAT HAS THIS CONGRESS DONE FOR US? WHY ARE THEY RATING at 18%? Hint, it's not because of the Republicans.

Lucy has moved the ball away from my foot one time to many. The Dems are about one red pubic hair better than the Republicans in my estimation, and I guarantee you A LOT OF THE COUNTRY FEELS THE SAME WAY.

Want to blame someone, start with Reid and Pelosi.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. In my other posts, I forgot to mention that. Yes, WHAT minority position.
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 07:34 AM by tom_paine
Or is it simply that the "minority" attitude which our Democratic Leadership STILL HAS is "trcikling-down" to the rest of us.

Yes, it certainly would appear that the Democrats were in the minority in Congress, FROM THEIR ACTIONS.

As must have been true in Nazi Germany, the actions did not match the reality of the situation, but instead totally AGREED with the false Nazi/Bushie reality woven not just for their followers, it is now clear in retrospect, but for the opposition leadership, as well, to sap their will and make them believe the false Nazi/Bushie "truth".

In both cases, success was enjoyed by the monsters weaving false realities, for long periods of time.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
70. My reference to being in a "minority position" ...
... was a reference to being put BACK into the minority position if we don't fight to keep the Dems in the majority, and in fact expand that majority in both houses.

I apologize for being unclear; in hindsight, I realize how poorly phrased that sentence was, and why it would be misunderstood.



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bluescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
41. Molly would be proud of you
You have taken up her torch and are carrying it well.

Proud to add to your growing list of recommendations.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
42. ,,,
:thumbsup:

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southpaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
43. Remember... Private Hudson went down fighting!
I'm hoping all the 'doom and gloomers' are just suffering from a temporary bout of defeatism, but when the fight heats up, we will all rise to the occasion.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. So did Vasquez and Drake
and they kicked ass...



Then there's Wierzbowski...a minor character with an etire site dedicated to him: http://www.wierzbowski.net/
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southpaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Hey, Vazquez. Have you ever been mistaken for a man?
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. "Have you?"
Great comeback line...
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
45. Interesting. Everyone who is fed up with the dems that have kept
the country tied up in the same knots as before the 2008 election defeatists? Seriously? Anyone who wants to see them stand up to the republicans is a doom-and-gloomer? Anyone who thinks that those elected and sent to Washington last November should remember that they are REPRESENTATIVES of the people and that they are to be responsive to the reasons the people elected them, not their own little private agendas, is automatically a burden on the party? Those of us who remember what the term 'democrat' used to mean and who want it to stand for those ideals and principals again (are we just supposed to sit down and shut up when we see the leaders of the party holding hearings that go nowhere and give money to bush** for wars and vote to allow MORE spying on the American people) not 'supporting' the party in a manner that meets your approval? And why is it that those of us who object to this crap are automatically assumed to have made no phone calls, sent no letters or faxes to our reps telling them what we think, feel, and want done? And why assume that the majority of us won't vote for the democratic candidate in the end?

Whatever.

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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. Nance's OP has brought out the best in people, methinks, but NOT
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 10:26 AM by tom_paine
for the reasons she originally thought.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
60. Could you kindly point out to me where I said ...
... that anyone who is fed up with the Dems are defeatists, that anyone who wants to stand up to the Republicans is a "doom and gloomer", that Democrats should sit down and shut up?

In fact, my OP was about people who are discouraging others from doing those things because it's already game over, so there's no point in standing up and being heard.

THOSE are the defeatists, not me. You have apparently understood me to be saying the exact opposite of what I actually DID say.

As for "not supporting the party in a manner that meets (my) approval", I have not set out anything in terms of what 'type of support' I approve or disapprove of.

I have simply stated the fact that people who are constantly reminding us that there is NO hope, that the Dems will NEVER get it right no matter what, that all of our voices will be IGNORED no matter how loudly we raise them or how often, are offering NO SUPPORT to those in the party who do believe that change is necessary AND ARE WILLING TO FIGHT FOR IT rather than sitting around bemoaning the fact that change is impossible, and therefore, fighting is pointless.





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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
52. A public note to Nance: I have the greatest respect for you and love your writings
Please don't take my posts, nor any of the other "Doom and Gloomers" here, personally.

We just STRONGLY DISAGREE with you in ways almost too strong for words.

And I think that many people have stepped up and articulated some of the mistaken premises in your OP quite nicely.

We ARE all on the same side, and that will continue to be true. The side of the Founding Fathers, and the America that still can be.

:patriot:
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #52
64. Thanks, Tom Paine ...
... and I don't take anything here personally. Discussions about politics should always be about principles, and not personalities.

I don't see a lot of strong disagreement with what I have said so much as strong disagreement with what I HAVEN'T said. I am still trying to figure out how "it is imperative for our voices to be heard" got translated into "so you're telling us all to shut up".

And I can't tell you how sorry I am to have even gotten involved in the "doom and gloom" argument, because that concept is NOT what I was talking about when I said game over - and now the terms are being used as inter-changeable, which they are not.

Some here seem to think I am promoting blind faith in our elected party members. Quite the opposite, I am promoting SPEAKING UP when any representative veers away from the party's PRINCIPLES. That is why I brought up the fact that if Republican voters had threatened NOT to support, NOT to re-elect, NOT to make campaign contributions to any GOPer who allowed spending to get out-of-hand (as per their party's 'principles'), we wouldn't be in the financial mess we're in.

Instead, the GOP voters (for whatever reason) have allowed themselves to be talked out of the importance of fiscal responsibility, and have accepted the nudge-nudge, wink-wink attitude of: "Go ahead and SAY you stand for fiscal responsibility; we won't actually hold you to it once you're in office."

I am not blindly loyal to Pelosi or Reid, or any other Dem; they are people who replaced other people in office, and who will themselves be replaced by others in future.

However, I am loyal to the party's principles, and that's why I think it important to KEEP AT IT, to keep holding feet to the fire, to keep reminding everyone that the PRINCIPLES are what must be adhered to by the people in office at any given time.

The action that has excited me most in the past few weeks is Dem voters who are telling callers looking for money, "Do what the voters WANT, and I'll contribute. Until then, you won't get a penny." That along with those who are sending their mailers from the Dem party back with the message: "When you IMPEACH, I'll send you a big, fat check. Until that happens, don't bother asking."

THAT sends an unmistakable message - and it's a message that must be heeded by any Dem who wants to survive their next bid for re-election.

I still believe there ARE ways to make our voices heard and taken seriously. And because I still believe that, I raise mine.

My voice may not achieve much, but my silence won't achieve anything.



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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
55. Kick!
:kick:

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
56. Marvelous post!
:toast:
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
66. It just bears repeating.
After our victory in November the War Party proceeded to pass its entire agenda through the Congress that we elected.

Every time I see one of these rants, I keep remembering that stunning fact.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
71. Nancy, you mock Private Hudson, but you forget that he did end up dying.
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 07:05 PM by file83
In-other-words, his pessimism was well warranted.

So, I'm not sure how mocking him supports your argument.

But any post that ties Aliens into contemporary politics is a post I'll read EVERY TIME. So, cheers!:thumbsup:
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. I didn't forget that he ended up dying ...
... after finally being convinced to fight back.

Was his pessimism warranted? Of course.

But what gave him a better chance at NOT being killed: fighting back, or whining that there was no use in doing so?

I was NOT arguing against pessimism in my OP; I was arguing against encouraging others to give up, throw in the towel, and yell game over!, so don't bother putting up a fight.


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danhan Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. "I have seen the enemy and he is us."
At a forum a month or so ago James Carville closed with the following remark:

"I have good news for everyone in the room. If you are a Democrat, the good news is that we will actually have to work very hard to lose in 2008. If you are a Republican, the good news is that we are perfectly capable of doing so."

Thanks Nance. Democrats need to stop "eating their own".
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Well I don't think I'll be able to beat that argument. GAME OVER!!!
True that Hudson when down fighting and the team ended up winning. Can't argue with that.

Love ya NanceGreggs!

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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
77. Confused, angry, betrayed, pointless, and stubborn but not defeated
These posts and comments are the only way that makes me feel anyone is even paying attention. I live in MO and after a close race we have a Democrat as Senator, MsCaskill which gave us all hope that she would represent our views. After contacting her on all the major issues before she cast her vote, she has voted with the republicans everytime. I would get so angry and frustrated, but I kept writing and emailing her about my concerns and would get a typical gorm-letter response. But after the FISA protect America ordeal I just went that's it, game over. It does no good writing her, I just wasted my vote. Several close friends have been with me and doing the same thing I had been doing and with the same result. What was I to do now. She was going to be there for 6yrs. I was so angry and frustrated. Then I observed what you observed on this site and that is that many were just slamming their lame reps but offering no constructive way to change things. Awareness is of course the 1st step in correcting any problem. I had nothing but criticism and outrage to offer but still the Dems were better than the repubs. So I decided that if my Senator won't listen then perhaps I needed to try other senators because the issues were national issues. I began to see who was on the committees and which committees dealt with the issues important to me and started emailing them with my concerns. I called out Howard Dean on his remarks and offered a differing opinion. I got busy letting others in the party know what my views were in contrast to theirs because if they never thought of it or thinks no one else feels that way then they have no reason to consider that point of view. For the most part these people are doing what they believe in and if all I do is tell them what a piece of crap they are for believing that way then I have shut down discussion that might cause them or I to change. It's all I can do if I want things to change otherwise I am defeated. This is what I expect from this site...not to be defeated. So I love your post because it's never game up unless I give up. It's just that sometimes the outrage is overwhelming.
Glad to see you're still writing. Always love to read your posts
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otisjf24 Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
78. From someone down on the Dems
I am a late comer to this whole political scene. I was blinded by my parents upbringing, and too lazy to do the work for myself. I met someone that is very informed in the political scene and a devout Dem. I began to really see the other side of the equation.

That being said: I broke away from my old habits this mid-term. I did want change to occur, and I was never so ignorant to not know that it could come from Congress. I have been left for want. And I am hurt, and down-right pissed off. I had been sold a bad bag of goods.
I had disagreements with my fiancee about Nancy becoming Speaker. I said outright, "She is a pissed off bitch and she will lose the support." She told me she would chill out. And she did... Like the absolute zero of deep space. Now, I am in the position of wanting the old Nancy back. I fell into the trap of "Be careful what you wish for..."
I wanted someone(s) to stop this insanity that the majority of the country wants ended. I get "non-binding resolutions" and "letters to the White House". How am I supposed to feel? "It will be better tomorrow."? I'm sorry, that is what you told me last time. "Fool me once..."
I just posted in another thread that I think of myself as part of the ignorant, lazy, politically uneducated 60% of voters. I would like to think, but I am probably wrong, that we are now used to "spin" (I think the, what, 30 something percent press approval rating says it all). I get to see Hillary and Obama in Iowa or New Hampshire, or where ever. I am at the point that I want to see them AT WORK. Both of these people, hell, most of the Dem ticket, is in office RIGHT NOW. What are they doing RIGHT NOW? Coynes puts a reparation bill in front of the house EVERY CONGRESS. Why aren't they putting forth bills that would mean real change EVERY DAY? I'm sorry, they would have to go to work to get that done. That might take away from their Presidential bids.

Now, I am not so bitter that I don't know that there are people that are really trying up there. I am also not so bitter that I don't think that there isn't hope. What am I saying is that I would like to see some of it. I am angry. I want some kind of placation. I think that most of us do.
On that I am going to finish on one last quote:

"Throw me a bone here, People!"

Otis
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hudsonaliens Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
79. Just Remember...
Hudson may have whined the most in the movie, but he was there when Ripley needed her alongside Hicks (although too late, but she held her own), and Hudson did kick some serious major ass. I remember him more for "You want some of this? You too huh? You want some of this? COME ON!" and a string of assault rifle firing when no one expected it from him in support :)
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
81. I really wish I could agree with you Nance.
However, business as usual in the US, even "by the book" BAU will at best only slow the decline IMHO.

Because business as usual in the US includes avoiding embarrassment at almost any cost. Virtually every major player in today's administration disqualified themselves for the posts they now hold (or held subsequently) years or decades ago. And yet?

Who let these people skate all those years ago to avoid an American black eye? Who enabled them to bribe and cheat their way into the positions they are now using to wreck the country to their own (and their own kind's) advantage?

Who, when in power, winds back only a portion of their opposition's abuses, choosing to hang onto some because they "aren't too bad when used properly"? And stands idly by and watches the great majority of their own hard won initiatives are killed just as they begin to show fruit, when they are on the outs?

The situation today has been building since the days of Nixon, if not earlier, and there have been numerous opportunities to put a stop to matters, but time and time again the ball has been fumbled or even handed back to the opposition.

There has always been a reason: Political expediency; Not enough numbers; Too embarrassing to America; on and on and on and always America and the world suffer for it.

You Americans seriously need to work towards putting together a viable third party, before it emerges spontaneously from the ashes of America's ruin.
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otisjf24 Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Wouldn't that then become the First Party?
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #83
86. Har bloody har. I'd say welcome, but will you be stayng? nt
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otisjf24 Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-26-07 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #86
93. Is that a challenge?
I may not be a regular, but I will definately "pop in" every now and then.
As part of the ignorant 60%, someone has to keep you all honest! :)
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #81
89. However ...
"You Americans seriously need to work towards putting together a viable third party."

This is DemocraticUnderground, not ThirdPartyUnderground.

I post here because I believe in the Democratic Party, and believe it can and will be changed from within.

If I believed that a third party was the more viable option, there are many websites dedicated to that school of thought. I'd be there, not here.

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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
82. Okay.
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 09:38 PM by acmavm
Almost every thread I read here on the inaction of the dems or outrage of their continual support of the bush** administration are DEFINITELY saying the dems are blowing it. How else would you describe approving the funding for Iraq and the Pentagon or covering for them and giving them more powers to spy on the American people? But I have NOT read one single post saying that they were giving up, that they were not going to continue to fight. I have read some that have said they're so damn disgusted that they are 'considering' what to do with their vote or are finding it hard to support the democrats we elected to change things last November. But people are jumping enmass on the board crying that all is lost just is not happening:

<snip>

Personally, I tend to read the posts in the Editorials & Articles forum, in order to be apprised of what is being said by the journalists, the pundits, et cetera. However, what I see more and more of lately is a constant barrage of editorials whose basic message is The Dems ARE BLOWING IT!. This would be helpful to our party, and our cause, if it was posted in the spirit of this is what is wrong, and needs fixing, as opposed to being a vindication of the OP’s belief that all is lost – and here’s yet another article that proves him right.

Don’t misunderstand me; I am against censorship of any kind, and have no problem with such editorials being posted here. But should they not serve as a trigger to discussion about how to determine ways to change the course of our party before it hits the predicted iceberg, rather than being used as justification for yet another call to abandon ship?

<snip>

And then you continue is the same vein by saying that people here are posting in all these 'positive' threads that voting doesn't matter, that the republicans have it in the bag because its fixed . When? Where? Who? Not that I've seen and I KNOW that I spend way too much time here. I've read about three or four posts that have said that the poster is sick of the continual backstabbing by the dem leaders and are thinking of maybe voting third party or not at all, but that happens so rarely that it's not even worth mentioning. And when it does so rarely happen people are all over the poster in a heartbeat. In fact, the post that pops up most often here is the 'I'll hold my nose and vote for the dems' when the disgust factor is so high the poster can hardly stand it. But you seem to insinuate that this place if full of whiners that have thrown in the towel and who are responsible for losing the 2004 election.

<snip>

I had the same argument with some posters during the lead-up to the mid-terms last November, those who insisted on posting in every positive thread about a candidate’s gain in the poll numbers with the same plaintiff cry: “It doesn’t matter, because Diebold has already decided on a GOP victory,” or, “Don’t bother getting excited, because Karl Rove has the math.”

As I argued at the time, it is one thing to say vote fraud is a problem, so be aware of it, and quite another to say it’s a done deal, so don’t bother voting.

Of course, as things turned out, Rove’s math turned out to be nothing more than smoke-blowing. But we’ll never know how many people didn’t vote in the mid-terms because a well-meaning friend had advised them of the futility of casting their ballot for a Democrat.

<snip>

The only logical retort to that last paragraph is that we'll never really know if ANYONE got so discouraged because of what a 'well meaning friend' said which led them to not vote. Now if people didn't vote I would say that the reason was more likely to have been voter intimidation like that which occurred in Ohio or Florida. Not because they were told the 'fix' is in.

<snip>

Then there's this paragraph. Unless you are referring to threads or posts expressing dissatisfaction with the dems performance I can't imagine where you get this stuff. Or maybe you've missed the point of something people are saying because you seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that people are throwing their hands up in surrender and have just given up. Where ever it is that you get that idea I'll never figure out, but here it is:

<snip>

The time has never been more ripe for a Democratic sweep than it is at this very moment – and yet I constantly hear the cry of ”GAME OVER!”, the rallying cry of the already-defeated, the already-enslaved – the very people who will scream the loudest when their party is yet again in the position of fighting an endless uphill battle against the Republican majority that they themselves helped come to fruition.

<snip>

And then there's the mandatory lecture that we always get from those who don't think people are being properly supportive of the party because they're fed up seeing their money go into killing people in a country that never did anything to us, or having government snoops listen in on our phone calls, or pass laws that allow 'sneak and peak' searches of one's home, or basically any and all actions that are totally and completely unconstitutional and should be declared patently illegal (but instead authority to do so is given by members of our own party).

<snip>

Regardless of my anger and my frustration, I plan to support my party members and work to ensure that a Democrat is inaugurated in January 2009 – whether he or she is my personal choice or not.

I will also work to ensure that Democrats hold an overwhelming majority in Congress, whether I am angered by them now or not.

<snip>

Can you honestly point out where people are saying enmasse that they will not support the party? There's a hell of a lot of bickering over who's candidate is better, which I find highly entertaining and an absolute scream. Especially the constant fighting between the Hils and Barrie supporters. But no one's saying they're just going to hand the election over to the republicans. In fact, people are saying quite the contrary. Hence the "I'll hold my nose and vote for whatever dem wins the nomination" posts which last week was the subject of a thread in itself. Someone was bitching because people used that phrase and he posted a whole screed on how they were sick and tired of reading that phrase in reference to the candidates. That's a far cry from your charge that people are 'giving up'. Which if that isn't a charge that people here are being defeatist, nothing is.

edit: This should have been placed under your indignant retort to my original post. I was copying directly from your OP that I posted in the wrong place.




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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #82
87. It's late, and I'm WAY too trired ...
But just a few points: You keep referring to people here doing things "en masse". I never suggested any such thing. If people were doing what I am talking about here "en masse", I wouldn't be here. I would have decided that this website wasn't right for me any longer, and would have moved on. I never said, nor inferred, "en masse".

"people saying en masse that they won't support the party", never said it, or anything close to it.

When I talked about the mid-terms and the "don't bother it's Diebold" posts, there were a quite a few of them going on in those last days, and there were quite a few flame wars over it. As for whether declaring the "fix in in" caused one person not to vote, or a hundred, or a thousand was not my point. My point was there could be no GOOD outcome from discouraging voting, only something negative. So what is the motivation in doing so?

If you, or anyone in this discussion, took me to mean that complaining is not warranted, that disappointment doesn't even come close to describing what we are feeling when we see our reps cave (the word betrayal comes to mind), or that everyone should just keep their shoulders down and "take it", you have read something into my OP that was never there.

I am not talking "en masse", and a lot of people here seem to be angrily insistent that I'm talking about them. After a quick perusal, I can tell you that there is no one currently on this thread whose actions or words have ever put them in the category of people I'm addressing.

I am not addressing the people who say "I'm totally disgusted and I want CHANGE within my own party, so how do we go about that?" I'm talking about the people who say, "We should all be disgusted and just walk away from the party."

No, there aren't masses of them - but they're out there, and they are getting my goat. Some of them are trolls looking to stir up shit; some of them are attention-getters who love to be contrary and get people pissed-off, some are just professional crepe-hangers who aren't HAPPY unless they can bitch about one thing or another - whether it is bitching with cause over something that is happening, or without cause by bitching about something they've conjured up in their minds.

Unfortunately, our erstwhile Dems have given everyone cause for bitching lately - loudly, pessimistically, and very, very often. But that doesn't mean that EVERY single positive step has to be immediately dumped on and trampled.

I am extremely unhappy (to put it mildly) over how our reps are doing (or failing to do) what we elected them for in the first place. But I am happy with the progress that's being made with investigations and the GOP shit that's finally being exposed.

There's a reason that the GOP have lost registered voters while the Dems have gained them over the past three years. There's a reason why many of the die-hard Bushies of 2000 are now on our side on the issue of impeachment. There's a reason more young voters are joining the Democratic party than are joining the GOP.

Obviously, we still represent something of value, and our message is getting through to our fellow citizens. I'm sorry if I take that as a good sign, but I do - and I don't appreciate being told (as I have been at times) that if I find any optimism in those small victories, I am simply deluding myself into believing in something that is utterly hopeless.

I still believe in the principles of the Democratic Party, and that's why I stay involved with it. I WANT Democrats in office, and more and more of them, because the alternative is far worse than anything we've got. I think we have a much better shot at getting the things WE want done if we have a huge majority than if we go back to being the minority. THAT'S why I support doing whatever is necessary to GET them in office.

If your response is that even if they had an huge majority, even if we had the White House, even if we had more Dems in positions of power like cabinet postings, judgeships, heading up the DoJ, etc. they STILL won't do anything we want them to do, then we have to agree to disagree. Because I am not going to take that as a foregone conclusion.

If, of course, that does turn out to be the case ... then I will have to reassess my political options. But I'm hanging in there, because I still do believe that WE can be heard and CAN effect change.



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avrdream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
84. This has been one of the BEST discussions I've seen on
DU in yonks!

I thank everyone who is being reasonable in their arguments here - scant bits of the attacks I see so often in other threads these days.

As an aside, I'm always jealous of those who can remember exact lines from movies. I barely remember the gist of things.
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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
91. Worry is my fall-back position
I do everything I can think of to assure the result I hope for.
I still worry I've forgotten something.

What else can I do after I'm certain I've done everything?
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avrdream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
92. Kickin back to the first page because this is what an intelligent
discussion should be like.
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