Do centrists really exist?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

Really.I'm starting to doubt it. I think America is quite polarized and the far right and the far left are both accurate reflections of what the 2 political parties are supposed to represent.

If there was such a big, broad middle, believe me, it would have coalesced and formed a powerful political party of it's own by now.

Be left, be progressive, damn the torpedo's and throw centrism overboard.

I would love it if the purest representatives, Kucinich and Paul were able to go head to head and just duke out the issues. Strangely, Kucinich and Paul overlap where they both reject wars of imperialism.

[dannofoot]

1. No, not at all.

I am merely an illusion, a figment of your imagination.

And all those other centrist Democrats I know in the Heartland, my family, etc? Holograms, all of 'em.

We are not the Dems you're looking for.

(We just happen to vote in the millions...)

[sam sarrha]

2. as they say in Texas, there's noth'n in the middle of th road but a yellow stripe an dead armadillos

[dannofoot]

3. Thanks, Sam...

...I guess that's yet another intelligent thing to come out of Texas.

How'd their 4 billionth execution go today?

[sam sarrha]

6. how about 'No child Left Behind'... they covered up the 46% drop out rate till it was tooo late

[sam sarrha]

4. ron paul is informative but he is still a Libertarian.. there are no moderate libs.. and they will

destroy more than the ReThugs.. sell off the national and state parks all the public lands close all the public schools.. they will make all roads toll roads, privatize the police, fire men.. there will be NO social programs, no SSI.. there is NO moderate, middle of the road lib... they are all bat shit crazy.. but ron does write a good essay, but he is just ignorant at best for being a lib

[dannofoot]

7. WTF??

Interesting rant...Ron Paul, selling off park lands, no social programs...

But, um...were you responding to me, or a spot on the wall? Who on this thread has mentioned ANY of what you are raving about?

On the other hand, if you were trying to hijack the thread, damn good attempt!

[sam sarrha]

14. comment on his party.. too many think the party is stratified.. the people maybe but not there Party

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

9. I understand your post, but it's confusing to call Libertarians "libs"

I agree that they are the most radical of the conservatives since they believe in almost NO government. That's why I think the time is ripe to have that debate right now. We have seen the evil that is wrought by de-regulation or no regulation - leaded toys, poisoned pet food, mad cow, Enron, hedge funds, crappy mortgages, etc.etc.etc.

Government serves a purpose. Why do you think we have it? Libertarians are really anarchists.

[sam sarrha]

13. ...

:shrug:

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

16. Because I think of "libs" as short for "liberal" not "Libertarian".

But maybe that's just me.

[sam sarrha]

21. yea i got that, it is late and sorry about the confusion... but i didnt previously mention Liberals

[Warpy]

5. People who call themselves "centrists" have no clue

where the center really is:

The majority think the minimum wage needs to be raised dramatically, not timidly.

The majority think offshoring needs to be stopped.

The majority want us out of Iraq, whether now or over a period of months.

The majority is ready for national health insurance.

The majority is sickened by the excesses of the rich, especially CEO salaries, and thinks wages have needed to rise for a very long time.

The majority know the government is lying about inflation and unemployment.

The majority is on to this administration and all it stands for and is extremely unhappy about it.

The majority is ready for change, not capitulation.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

10. That is Exactly my point. The so-called centrists are really a minority

and a mealy-mouthed one at that.

[dannofoot]

18. Please admit that

you have no idea what the term "centrist" means. Your OP pretty much proved that, but you're now simply reinforcing the depth of your misunderstanding of the term.

You have just called more half of the Democrats in this country a mealy-mouthed minority. You know, the same ones that helped barely elect a Democratic majority in November. Nice way to say "thanks."

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

23. to me a "centrist" = DLC, DINO, Blue Dog,

Those who try to find a middle road that that traverses equally between bogs and high ground (they get muddied despite their best efforts)

I am for the average, middle and lower class working American. The people who survive on wages and not interest income. The people who care about the cost and availability of health care or the lack there-of and issues like affordable housing and the costs of higher education. Also those who think a war should be fought as only the last, unavoidable step and who believe "pre-emptive" is tantamount to a war-crime; and those who also care about civil liberties, the Constitution and the clear separation of Church and State.

[Totally Committed]

32. Ditto. n/t

TC

[onenote]

34. A perfect example of why trying to pigeon hole people with labels is foolish

Is there a center? Of course there is. What is it and who belongs? Harder to say. But the same could be said about the right and the left. Political stances reflect a continuum, not stops along a train platform. ANd its a three dimensional continuum. A person may be more progressive than someone else on one issue, and less progressive on another. THe next person may also be more progressive on an issue and less on another, but with a completely different set of issues.

The example of equating "Blue Dogs" with DINOS is illustrative. There are "Blue Dogs" with 100 percent ratings from NARAL or on environmental issues -- far better ratings than virtually any repub. Yet they are labelled DINOs because of their more hawkish views on other issues. I doubt that there is any single politician with whom I agree on every single issue -- but I judge the overall package, not a single issue. And while I might support a Democratic primary challenger over an incumbent (as with Lamont over Lieberman), I will do so only if I think it is a viable challenger given the realities of the district or state in which the election is being held. And come hell or high water, I'm going to support the Democratic candidate on the ballot over the repub candidate, even if the candidate was not my choice in the primary.

[dannofoot]

12. I see...so the "majority"

...of which you write is the center...but there are no centrists there. Interesting concept. Implausible, but interesting.

I'll give you an "A" for effort, but a "C" for comprehension of what a centrist is. Hint: Drop your anger and take off the blinders.

[Gregorian]

8. A centrist is someone who doesn't vote.

That may not be accurate, but it sounded good to me.

I worry that there are centrists. And there are far more of them than people realize. Rabid right and very liberal left, I'm afraid are few in comparison. But I don't know that either. But judging by the crap on tv, and in our society, that just might be the case. I'm bored shitless with this stupid country. The Daily Show is just about all I have. Since a young boy I kept waiting for the excitement. I mean, resistance to things like the drug war. Zero. Zilch. Boring, safety minded, goofy people. I mean, who was that piece of shit PT Cruiser designed for, anyways? But that's my subjective ranting.

[sam sarrha]

15. actually Centrists are people who vote a split ticket.. to F everything up

[Igel]

26. Back in the early '90s, that's how I voted.

Some dem, some repub (it was southern California), and some off-parties. Looked over my ballot for partisan quotient and found that the dem/repub split was even, with about 20% of 'other'. Quirky mix of 'yes' and 'no' votes for the measures, as well.

Very strange. But I looked over the voter's guide in great detail and that's where I landed.

[sam sarrha]

30. so did i... but that was before Reagan.. i saw this comming after him..

[Yukari Yakumo]

11. Not everyone agrees with every individual progressive goal

Though most people would identify themselves as moderates.

[sam sarrha]

17. i feel it is TOTALLY IMPOSSABLE to moderate in the face of Fascism, and a psychopathic pResident

[sam sarrha]

19. Sooooo... where do Centrists stand on stolen elections..? shredding the Constitution..??

[dannofoot]

20. Wow, well. really...

Gonna have to say G'night to this thread...just can't keep up with this high level of discourse.

[NoPasaran]

22. I think of myself as a centrist

And I cast a shadow and have a reflection in the mirror and all that stuff.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

24. Does post # 5 describe you? nt.

[welshTerrier2]

25. centrism is a political tactic and not anything more

i've written this before but, since you asked ...

centrism, unlike liberalism or conservatism, is a system void of values and beliefs ... void, that is, beyond an electoral strategy ...

what is the centrist view of whether it's OK for corporations to have more influence on the direction of the country than citizens have? what is the centrist view on whether racism is OK ... would they argue a little racism is OK but not too much? what is the centrist view on global warming? would they argue we should do a little bit to ward off its effects but not too much? what is the centrist view on war? it's OK to go to war for corporate gain as long as we don't do it too often? what is the centrist view on free speech? we can have free speech as long as you mostly say things we agree with?

centrism is a bankrupt political tactic that puts politics ahead of policies ... it puts winning ahead of winning something valuable ... it is a soulless search for the center of the bell curve totally void of leadership and principles ... centrism is the essence of the DLC and the Clintons ... if you look at almost all the posts in this forum about Hillary, guess what you'll find? you'll find that almost all the pro-Hillary posts are about her campaign efficiency or her poll numbers or her endorsements ...

see what's totally lacking? you got it!! you almost never see a post explaining Hillary's position on an issue ... think about that ... then you'll understand just how bankrupt centrism really is ...

[Igel]

27. No. It's precisely Lakoff's

mistake, requiring that there be a system to a group of people when none is needed.

Each centrist will likely have a coherent worldview, a systematic approach to his/her political beliefs. That this view isn't held in common by a majority of centrists doesn't mean that they still can't be defined as a group. It's just that given the relative simplicity of conservatism/liberalism, the group's more complex.

Lakoff apparently feels the need to have an ideology before he can acknowledge there's a group with a somewhat consistent voting pattern. If there is no ideology, there simply can't be a group. Now, this is fine mathematics and linguistics, as long as there's no need to actually deal with data. But as soon as you have data you need to ground your theory in the data. The data rejects Lakoff's theory (they were iffy on many of his earlier dicta, for instance when he claimed discovery of what ad execs knew in the '30s, but without the subtle theoretical nuances that the ad execs understood).

Centrist voting is what happens when you have a group of people that vote idiosyncratically, based on their private views, and when there's some sort of emergent pattern to their voting. It's not a tactic any more than it's a coherent philosophy; the people that vote thus are voting their consciences every bit as much--and arguably somewhat more, since they tend not to listen to party leaders--as you and me.

What is a centrist view on a topic? Mixed, and completely lacking a party line. Nobody can answer for them a priori. Forecasters hate them. So do those dedicated to the left or the right.

[welshTerrier2]

28. i disagree

i differentiate between individuals who vote "idiosyncratically", as you've defined, versus those who believe in finding the center. Center seekers, which is how I choose to define "centrists", believe only in winning. by definition, they have no position on any issue other than finding the dead center of the bell curve.

we disagree because it appears you don't agree with my definition of centrists.

now, if you use a term like moderates or free thinkers or non-ideologues, that's a bit different. perhaps then, we would find more in common based on the arguments you raised.

for me, a "centrist" is devoted to finding the center. their views are not really their own views at all; they are a statistical compilation based on the views of all other voters. by this definition, centrism is a tactic and NOT a system of beliefs based on the issues.

[dannofoot]

29. Oh my. Came back in time...

...to find a coherent, informative post. Many thanks, igil.

[Odin2005]

31. The notion of "centrist" is an artifact of a one-demensional political spectrum

I know "Centrists" that are economically progressive and socially conservative and "Centrists" that are moderate Libertarians. The term is essentially meaningless.

[Totally Committed]

33. kick

TC

[leftynyc]

35. Okay - you don't like the term centrists - how

about swing voters? If you think the majority of the people reside on either the far right or the far left, you're dreaming.