The One Democrat That All of the GOP Candidates Secretly Fear to Debate Is:

[David Zephyr]

For all the predictable male bravura that the GOP candidates make, the truth is that the single individual that they all fear to debate is Hillary Clinton. They know deep down inside their guts that they will never measure up to this woman in a debate.

Like her or not, Hillary shows up to debates always prepared, on message, in command and never misses an opportunity to jab the opponent when they leave themselves open. And she does it with ease.

Karl Rove, the biggest coward in the American males species knows this, too... and which is why he focused on her this week, not the others. They fear Hillary. She's lethal in debates. Ask Rick Lazio.

They fear Hillary Clinton the most. And they should.

[texastoast]

1. Lawyers always make better debaters

And successful trial lawyers have a power of persuasion that is glorious to watch if they are passionate.

[saracat]

14. That would be Edwards. Hillary wasn't that much a trial lawyer.

[liberaldemocrat7]

16. I don't consider Hillary a progressive.

I want a progressive such as John Edwards, or Al Gore, or Barack Obama to get the nomination.

[snowbear]

22. I agree -- but DU has its DLC crowd and they love their girl

- -

(they love Terry McAwful too)

[bvar22]

44. They also love "Slave Labor Countries", For Profit HealthCare.

The Armaments Industry, Imperial Wars, The Unitary Executive, and BIGGER Defense Budgets.

Helping out the little people who Work for a Living?.....not so much.



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[creeksneakers2]

72. I'm not DLC

and Hillary is a centrist, not a Republican. Actually, I'm leaning toward Dodd but want to defend Hillary because she's treated so unfairly.

[loudsue]

36. Obama isn't really progressive, but I'd take Gore or Edwards any day.

I truly believe that Obama will some day be president, but I don't think it's going to be in 2008. He's like fine wine, and he needs time to mature.

:kick:

[Hieronymus]

71. I love Gore and Edwards both.

[fishwax]

83. our trial lawyer certainly wasn't glorious to watch in the '04 debates

[pocoloco]

2. LOL The only t6hing they fear is that

she won't get the nomination!!1

[texastoast]

27. Bingo! n/t

[HeraldSquare212]

3. "Ask Rick Lazio"?

What the hell? You think he's near a reasonable gauge? I'm no fan of the Repubs but any of them will be a lot more honed than he was by the time the general election debates come around. Too bad you can't ask Jonathon Tasini, because the great debater refused to debate him the last time she ran for a Democratic nomination. Wonder why...

[David Zephyr]

4. And while you are at it: ask Edwards, Obama, Richardson, Dodd & Biden.

She won every debate against these guys so far. The only exception to her complete dominance in the debates has been the rising star of Dennis Kucinich.

[Larkspur]

6. So say the Corporate controlled Media

Hillary is the corporatists dream Dem candidate. She'll prostitute herself to their whims like any Republican.

[emilyg]

17. Old line. gee - find something new.

[jgraz]

40. Yes, please quit repeating true things

Tell me some more about how Hilary likes puppies.

[venable]

67. no need to find something new - just review the history, and it's obvious

the MSM slobbers of HRC after each debate, and real voters pick Edwards or Obama.

She screams, the panders, she deals in platitudes - she is a weak debater, in spite of Tweety's fawning.

Voters know.

[creeksneakers2]

74. Romney was able to blow $400 per vote in

a meaningless straw poll. Romney is where the big corporate money is going.

Those few corporations that support Hillary do so because they hope she'll lower their health care costs. Other than health care, the corps hate her and have worked since day one to destroy her.

[Yael]

50. I think you may be watching different debates than I am...

[DURHAM D]

5. Jonathan who? Oh that's right - nobody.

She didn't need to fool around with that to provide him his 15 seconds of fame.

[Colobo]

7. Obama > Clinton. She polarizes, he unites.

[David Zephyr]

8. This is about debating skills. By the way, Hillary won all of the debates.

I agree with you that Obama has a very winning personality, but any fair observation of the debates thus far would give her the nod. She's the best in that format and the Republicans know it.

[harun]

28. So what? Bush was crushed in the debates against Kerry

and he still got elected.

[Gelliebeans]

80. Very important point

Bush was shown to be the jackass he is in those debates.

[Ethelk2044]

29. The media stated she won the debate. She is being pushed by the MSM.

The voters did not believe she won the debate. If you looked at the polls after the debate, she did not win them. They want us to vote for who they want. However, the voters are not agreeing with them.

[WhiteTara]

32. during our recent GOTV event, we had a straw

poll. Hillary won 2 to 1 against every other candidate...okay nobody voted for Dodd and 1 person voted for Biden. Those were real voters. But the thing we heard the most..."I don't have a candidate yet"

[bvar22]

46. Hillary LOST the debates, but she did win "Homecoming Queen".

The Media was obviously confused.
Even Tweety praised Hillary's Poise and Majesty.

Debates are won on content, not platitudes.

Obama got Miss Congeniality.

[Bjorn Against]

42. She lost the Yearly Kos debate big time...

Her claim during that debate that lobbyists represent "ordinary Americans" did not go over well at all and for good reason. She is going to get nailed with that quote over and over again and she deserves it.

As far as the other debates go, she is able to hold her own but I would by no means say she won the debates that I watched. A "fair observation" to you is not necessarily going to be a fair observation to others as the winner of any given debate is largely based on opinion. Unless someone says something that really causes people to groan (like Hillary did at the Yearly Kos debate) then it is hard to say they lost the debate. It is always much easier to gauge who lost a debate than who won when there are multiple candidates in a debate like this, because different people react differently to the positions offered. What may be a win for one person would be a loss for another.

[Yael]

51. And the AFL-CIO debate... And the YouTube debate....

I am eager to hear which debate she actually "won".

[msongs]

11. yeah like obama fans on DU are uniters.....right nt

[MethuenProgressive]

9. Lots of people here fear strong, powerful, intelligent females.

It's really sad to read all of the sexist DU attacks on Sen. Clinton.

[loudsue]

43. That's bullshit. There are hardly any people on DU who "fear

strong, powerful, intelligent females." In fact, we adore most of 'em. Kpete, Nance Greggs, Plaid Adder, Seemslikeadream, Helderheid, SFExpat, Peace Patriot, DeepModemMom, ...shoot! The list goes on & on & on & on.....

We FLOODED Barbara Boxer's office with flowers when she moved not to certify Ohio's vote in 2004. There are countless examples of support for strong, powerful, intelligent females around here.

Take your strawman argument and go home.

:kick:

[beltanefauve]

84. May I add

Helen Thomas!:applause:

[Yael]

52. I am a female

and she is like fingernails on the proverbial chalkboard to me.

I don't get sexist out of that unless 2+2 really does = 5

[cascadiance]

53. The real problem is when people vote for someone JUST BECAUSE she's a woman...

As noted by other posters here, DU and myself have no problem supporting good powerful and progressive women, and personally I'd like to favor getting in a woman with everything else being equal. But first and foremost is what they are about substance-wise. You wouldn't try to "double your return" by voting for someone like Condi Rice would you (being both African American and a female!). Can't you see why that strategy is flawed?

In a way, I think that's why the DLC is pushing folk like Hillary and Obama at the top of the list, so that people can vote for them being a woman or a minority rather than what they really are about on issues. Now if they are decent on the issues too, then damn I'll be first in line behind them, but so far, both Hillary and Obama have disappointing to me, and I see at this point in our history that getting rid of the corporate influence is as important or MORE important than trying to get just Democrats in over Republicans. Now I still don't see ANYONE on the Repubican side that I'd vote for, but the real battle in my book to put down corporatism is in the primary right now! That's why we need someone like Gore, Edwards, or Kucinich (or maybe even Clarke if he gets in the race).

[knight_of_the_star]

58. That is such a load

How about I despise those who go back on their word, twist in the wind, chase the polls, and are more interested in FOLLOWING what focus groups say is big as opposed to LEADING the way on the issues.

[WildEyedLiberal]

77. Oh I am SO sick of this straw man

I'm a strong, powerful, intelligent female and I can't stand Hillary Clinton. Please don't insult our intelligence by making us a monolithic group.

[Gelliebeans]

81. That has nothing to do

with my reasons for not wanting to vote for her in the primary. That is a broad brush statement.

[Bitwit1234]

10. For one thing

there is a class of men who fear women. They can't stand for a woman to be in charge of anything. Even a lot of democrats are bashing her because of this.

[Alamom]

25. I fear you are right.....I hope not. eom

[knight_of_the_star]

59. Excuse me!?!

I have no problem with a woman running the show, I have a problem with a woman running the show who doesn't seem to be willing to be out in front leading on anything of more substance than video game violence.

[ruggerson]

12. Yeppers

I think Edwards has done a great job in the debates, but I do think they fear Hillary. It's hysterical reading some of the conspiracy posts here, claiming that Rove is attacking Hillary because he really WANTS to face her in '08. As if there's logic in that somehow. The fact is they're thinking that she WILL be the nominee and they want to gear up and start attacking her sooner rather than later - they do not want her to get the nomination unscathed by Republicans. What worries them is she's not a new figure to Americans - both her and Bill are relatively immune to GOP smears, as it's the "boy who cried wolf" syndrome. They've both been accused of being calculating murderers by Richard Melon Scaife and Co., so the vast majority of the country is not going to believe one word out of the RNC"s talking points when it comes to Clinton smears.

Their gamebook is always to define a Democrat before that Democrat has a chance to define themselves. They know that's a far easier task for them with Obama and even Edwards to some degree. It's almost impossible for them to define Hillary. They know this and it scares them to death.

[David Zephyr]

15. Insightful observations, ruggerson.

You make a very strong point that deserves a lot more attention than just here: that it's impossible for the GOP to try and define Hillary.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

41. Interesting take.

Makes sense.

[Yael]

54. Don't underestimate the damage that has already been done

The right is already in a position of loathing the woman. Swiftboating her will merely bringing up the issues that people already know as reminders, not as new agenda/suprise items.

She is polarizing enough within our own base. Add to that the right's already deep dislike and distrust and you will see them mobilize like never before.

[ruggerson]

57. Right

that worked really well with her husband. And remember the long jail term she served for the Rose Law Firm scandal.

Oh wait. Her husband got elected to two terms and in both elections had an organized and fierce rapid response team that actually defused the GOP garbage.

And Hillary has been elected to two terms in the Senate. And in the re election campaign won conservative upstate NY overwhelmingly. And has now assembled a similar team to fight a massive war against the Republicans.

You're right. They just don't know how to play the game, those Clintons.

[Yael]

61. Well, you run with that...

She scares the crap out of me. Not only will they mobilize but *if* she wins, we will have 4 more years of the same shit we have put up with the last 8.

[ruggerson]

62. See now, it's your second sentence that exposes your agenda

and it is a flatly ridiculous thing to say. To pretend that Hillary CLinton, a progressive with a progressive voting record in the Senate, would run the country the same way a religious rightwing whackjob would is just patently idiotic.

[Yael]

63. Agenda? Not at all. I don't trust any candidate who is in bed with corporate lobbyists

Easy enough to be one of 100 voting left. More difficult to be 1 of 1 and owned by corporate America.

[creeksneakers2]

73. That's exactly how they worked it last year

They went after Dean hardest when he was the front runner. When Kerry took the lead, the GOP focused on Kerry.

Its 101 campaign strategy to try to define the other candidate at the beginning, before that candidate has a chance to define himself. That's what they are trying to do to Hillary and it isn't working.

[Sparkly]

13. She's damned good in debates, I agree.

The only time I think she really went off-key was in the volley with Obama about Pakistan. It was as though, having won some points previously for shunning "hypotheticals" and calling Obama "naive," she went to those once more in entirely the wrong context.

But in general, I think she's very poised and polished in debates.

[GeorgeGist]

18. hee hee

[monmouth]

19. Perhaps we should ask Bill. She would bury all of the Repugs...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

20. Let me tell you about 1992.

I saw her at a private campaign function at a rich lawyer's house in the summer of 1992. She stood on a box in the back yard, on the patio, with a mike on a stand, and talked with no notes at all, for about an hour to an hour and a half. She sounded like the liberal I wish she was. She's just as good a speaker as Bill.

I had a video camera and videotaped the whole thing. She's still brilliant but she's certainly moved to the right.

[illinoisprogressive]

21. bwahahahahaha. they don't fear her. they pray to run against her.

[cobalt1999]

31. "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it"

They (and you) underestimate her.

[ChiciB1]

37. And They're Loaded For Bear With LOTS Of AMMO!

If you think for one minute Bill Clinton won't be a HUGE issue if she gets the nod, I can only presume you missed the "swift-boating" THINGEY when John Kerry ran!

If they could to do John Kerry what they did, a man who ACTUALLY served his country in Viet Nam, a man who ACTUALLY fought for his country, and the facts were there to SUPPORT it, I'm not sure I want to See what they have in store for Hillary Clinton.

And I'm sure your response will be that "she can handle them" but I beg to differ. These Repukes are low-life slime and will stop at NOTHING! It doesn't MATTER if there's even a hint of truth to what they say. THEY DON'T GIVE A TINKER'S DAMN!

[Yael]

55. They don't need 'new' and 'surprise' issues

All they need to do is remind their base why they dislike/distrust her based on KNOWN history of disagreement.

[creeksneakers2]

76. Bill Clinton will be a positive

most people like Bill Clinton.

[creeksneakers2]

75. Hillary's vulnerability is right wing propaganda

Hillary polls well ahead of Mitt Romney, the likely GOP nominee. Last one I saw was 51%/40%.

[saltpoint]

23. I'd pay pretty good money indeed to hear any of the hapless Pukes go up

on a debate stage against Mario Cuomo, Bill Bradley, Julian Bond, Bill Moyers, John Kerry, Barbara Boxer, Robert Kennedy Jr., and Al Gore -- and that's not even tapping the current field of outstanding candidates.

The Pukes are sending up a pathetic, macabre gaggle of incompetents and creeps.

None of them is going to win a debate against anybody we nominate.

[Skip Intro]

24. I could only see BIden potentially doing better. Possibly. He has that potential.

But as far as debates, I think it more likely Hillary the one the repukes really fear. And I think they should.

I cannot, completely, totally, discount, however, the engergizing effect a Hillary nom would have on the repuke rank and file. It would probably mobilize some on the right who'd rather just take excedrin and try to forget the last several years. Would that be enough to doom the Dem ticket, top to bottom? Would it be any different for any Dem?


I think there are a lot of people who'd say, "hell, after bush, how bad can Hillary be?"


I fear the extent of possible backlash, but I don't think it true. I don't think, given a Hillary/? ticket vs. a gouliani/? ticket, that people on the right would just be up in arms about the possiblity of a Hillary presidency. I think it likely that entire "backlash" effect to be way overblown.


I think Hillary would kick ass in the debates, probably our best there, and I also think she'd kick ass in the general. She's a 60 minutes vulnerable moment away from being acceptable to a lot of folks.

Imho.

[Yael]

56. My mom is a single-issue (R) voter

Abortion. And although she disagrees with the (R) stance 90% of the time, she won't budge.

She told me that she will not vote for Rudy unless we choose Hillary.

I think a lot of people here underestimate the right wing machine's 12 year koolaide campaign against the woman.

[UnityDem]

26. Would love a 3-way debate

I know why we can't have one. I understand the howls (probably justifiable) by other candidates.
That being said, I'd love to see Clinton, Obama, and Edwards in a two hour debate where they really went at it on the issues (especially health care).

[harun]

30. I would love to see them even go one further than that

and to have a debate with those three, broadcast on the Internet, available for download after, that had no time limit. They could fully articulate their positions if they wanted to. Of course many people would find this boring but what people should really be looking for out of the candidates is substance not entertainment. It is too important.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[L0oniX]

34. Secrecy and executive privalege will reign if Hillary gets elected...

just like the last time the Clintons were in office. Doesn't anyone remember?

[creeksneakers2]

78. I remember exactly the opposite

Bill Clinton turned over everything from his first Bazooka Joe comic to his last E-mail. Even then, the GOP wasn't satisfied. They made a national sensation out of Hillary losing one document that wasn't even important. Even after Bill left office, Dan Burton spent millions on forensic work to recover any lost Clinton E-mails, just to find if there was anything. Burton found nothing.

The people who worked for Clinton wound up with $300,000 legal bills because they were all called to testify before Congress and the grand jury. Clinton seldom used executive privilege and didn't use it at all at first. Even the entire Secret Service guard was hauled before the grand jury just to grilled on whether they ever saw Clinton having sex.

I honestly don't know where one could get the idea that the Clintons were secretive.

[ChiciB1]

35. Yeah, I Think It's That Edwards Guy!!! He Seems To Have What It

takes, PLUS he also VERY LIKABLE!

[Bjorn Against]

38. I fear Hillary the most too...

I just can't trust someone who has taken as much money from lobbyists as she has, especially when they defend those corporate lobbyists by saying they represent "ordinary Americans". I know she is a very polished politician and a great debater, but I don't think she can be trusted to stand up against the lobbyists that are financing her campaign. It is not just Republicans who fear her.

[wisteria]

39. Sen. Clinton is known for a lot of things, but her debating skills are not one of them.

Spontaneity may be a problem.

[Nothing Without Hope]

45. My answer to the opening question would have been Dennis Kucinich. n/t

[corkhead]

47. Meanwhile, they pray she gets the nomination. She would make what should be a 50 state landslide

close enough to steal. In the unlikely event she won the general, they would have one of their own anyway, despite all the corporatist and right wing billowing to the contrary.

I have nothing against her personally, but she is easily the most divisive candidate in the race in either party, which is the last thing we need at this time IMHO.

[Chipper Chat]

64. She does seem to, er, Clash with most people's psyches.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[jberryhill]

48. "never misses an opportunity to jab the opponent when they leave themselves open"

Now there's an important leadership quality that this world needs.

[IndianaGreen]

70. Hillary joined the GOP in attacking Kerry on that joke of his that felt flat

Hillary knew that Kerry did not mean to smear the troops, but she went ahead anyway with her vitriolic attack on Kerry, saying the same things that the GOP was saying.

Hillary has no scruples when it comes to advancing her ambitious agenda, even if that means smearing a fellow Democrat.

We don't need a female version of Bush in the White House!

[EndElectoral]

49. Gimme a break...she is incredibly vulnerable, and they're salivating to debate her.....

[MasonJar]

60. John Kerry took W to the cleaners at the debates (and that despite

Bush's illegal earphone) and the crooks still stole the election. If we do not get paper ballots, the dems will never win again. GOPers do not care if they cheat....as long as they win.

[trayted]

65. Thanks for a good laugh. Hold up, wait a minute. You mean to tell me you are serious?

[IndianaGreen]

66. Hillary is the Democrats' Bugsy Siegel versus the GOP's Al Capones

To the working class, they are both gangsters and no friends of ours!

[razors edge]

68. I doubt Ron Paul fears her.

Not that he will ever get the chance. But the man stands toe to toe with the Federal Reserve, the IRS, and the GOP whenever he feels like it. Hillary would be just another politician to a constitutional statesman.

[zulchzulu]

69. I like how she attacks other candidates on issues she previously agreed on

Take her attack on Obama on meeting world leaders for example. It turns out she said exactly what Obama said about meeting world leaders earlier.

Or take her attack on Obama for taking nukes off the table and how naive that was. Except she had said the very same thing earlier agreeing with Obama's position.

Yep. Debating strengths to some means just blurting out shit that completely conflicts with you are on record for saying earlier.

Fascinating....:crazy:

[Ethelk2044]

79. They do not fear Hillary. They want her because they know it will

motivate the Christian Right to come out in force to make sure they win another election.

[killbotfactory]

82. I can't wait to choose between two corporate fascists!

One will slap you with a velvet glove, one will hit you with an iron fist, and both, by and large, have the same goals on a whole variety of important issues.

Yes, please!

[dionysus]

85. is she like the Terminator or something? Lazio was a buffoon....

[MadHound]

86. Wow, what delusions

Sorry, but Kucinich handed Hillary her ass in Chicago at the labor debate, at the Logos debate and the You Tube debate. Hillary is not a great monolithic candidate, and as time goes on she is becoming ever more vunerable. Stating that people fear debating her is utter BS, since she isn't that great, and like I said, has had her ass handed to her by DK on more than one occaision. Hard for somebody to be afraid when they are always on the right side of the issues and Hillary is wrong, a lot.

[Norrin Radd]

87. They would fear debating Clark.

[Oldenuff]

88. So what?

Too bad it takes more than the ability to debate,to be President.