Kerry isn't electable...Dean is?

[ButterflyBlood]

Dean supporters like to claim Kerry is unelectable or that only Dean can beat Bush. and yet:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/16/opinion/polls/main600505.shtml

Kerry beats Bush by 5 points, while Bush beats Dean by 17 points.

Rather than being unelectable, Kerry may actually be the MOST electable candidate. He beats Bush in almost every recent poll, and no one else even comes close.

[Dookus]

1. ding ding ding

we have a winner.

You can expect to hear shortly that polls are useless. Just a heads up.

[LoZoccolo]

11. Polls are useless.

They only measure what people answer when people ask them a question (over the phone, etcetera).

[Dookus]

18. that must be why

nobody uses polls, and why candidates don't commission them and pore over the results.

[LoZoccolo]

61. I was kidding.

I saw no one else replied as predicted yet.

[burning bush]

33. Ding ding ding?

Do you have a bell tied around your neck?

Kerry is electable because the press has decided, for now, that he is electable.

2 or 3 months ago he was a nothing, because the press thought he was a nothing.

that ding ding ding isn't the winner's bell, its the echo chamber of American politics.

let one ding sound off, and all the other dings follow along

ding ding ding ding..........

[Dookus]

36. no

the press simply reported that he's had some astounding wins.

He's ahead because the Democratic primary voters put him there.

Ding!

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aldian159]

2. Come on, you and I both know

that everyone opposed to Kerry will counter with facts.

Wait, no, they will say: "Media bias! Can't you sheeple see that the media is playing you like a fiddle!"

[ButterflyBlood]

6. hmmm, well while watching the first Tuesday primaries coverage...

I saw exit poll stats that showed that electability was the #1 concern of the voters. And those who chose it overwhelmingly chose Kerry.

More sheeple brainwashed by the media I suppose.

[stickdog]

41. The whole "electability" issue was memed to the point of spam.

Second only to the "Dean's angry and unelectable" meme sold with it.

[eileen_d]

43. Electability is being spammed all over DU

as an excuse for discounting Kerry's victories in the primaries.

I've heard more about electability from people who don't support Kerry than I have from people who do!

[DebJ]

3. That's because Kerry has yet to be vetted. I STILL want to know how

Kerry will answer this question from Bush:

You voted for the Patriot Act, you voted to go to Iraq, what makes you think you can implement my programs better than I can?

[boxster]

5. That will never be asked.

Even Bush isn't stupid enough to go there. If he does, Kerry has the perfect opportunity to bash him on what Bush's promises were vs. what he implemented.

[DebJ]

13. Has Kerry read the constitutional debates? Don't trust anyone, most

especially a President or politician. If Kerry voted based on trusting Bush, Ashcroft, or anyone, then I don't want Kerry in office, he ain't smart enough nor protective enough of the interests of the people of the United States. But then again, his highest allegiance per his oaths is NOT to the USA, but above that, to Skull and Bonesmen....i.e., GWBush.

[Dookus]

21. so based on one vote

that passed 99-1 in the Senate, he is unelectable and unfit?

I doubt it.

Using votes this way isn't a very persuasive argument. There's not a single politician who has voted the way I want every single time.

[boxster]

22. Oh, please.

Not the S&B stuff again. Don't you think that if Kerry had a master plan re: S&B that it might have made an appearance during his 30-year career in public service?

As an aside, for supposedly being such a secret society, some Dean supporters sure do seem to know an awful lot about S&B.

[Kahuna]

8. Kerry to bush: Because you are a fascist LIAR!!!

Because in my wildest dreams could I imagine that you would be so cynical and dastardly. Never could I imagine that you would squander the good will and faith of the world and the American people and fail to deliver on every single initiative that you promised to accomplish.

[DebJ]

15. not a good enough answer. See response #13.

[boxster]

34. Not a good enough answer? You mean like your answer below: "Nope".

:eyes:

[DebJ]

45. Touche. I'm tired.

:)

[boxster]

50. Ok, you're excused. Hehe....

Get some rest! :boring:

[Tweed]

9. "The United States and myself have seen what your agenda has become...

and most of us don't like it. That's why I'm running for President and that's why the American people will elect me."

:)

[Dookus]

12. he has spent 35 years in public life

20 in the Senate of the United States. He hasn't been vetted?

And I have yet to see a campaign in which somebody attacks his opponent for agreeing with him.

[DebJ]

17. people in exit polls who voted for him admit they know little of him

except that he got the majority vote in the primary before theirs.
They sure don't know he votes for Bush's programs.

[Dookus]

24. can you provide

a link to that exit poll data?

[boxster]

32. Care to provide some proof of that assertion?

[boxster]

4. Kerry is easily the most electable right now,

because he has the strongest support of people voting in the primaries and caususes.

I know that sounds simplistic, but let's look at this logically. Most of our support in the GE is going to come from Democrats and Independents, many of the same people voting in the primaries and caucuses. Sure, we'd love crossover votes from disgruntled Republicans, but how many more of those would Dean get than Kerry?

If Kerry is, by far, the strongest candidate with those people now, wouldn't it seem to make sense that he would be the strongest candidate in the GE?

[ButterflyBlood]

7. like I said above...

Kerry is the top choice of primary voters who list electability as their top priority in a candidate.

[DebJ]

10. unless credibility were to be an issue instead, but hey, why think logic

when people vote for Candidate X because other people did.

I say hold two primaries in Rhode Island and Delaware, and then have a coronation. No one elses' vote counts, just ask Terry McAuliffe.

[boxster]

16. Do you really think people would vote for someone who they felt

wasn't credible? Come on.

People list Kerry as being the most electable, but it certainly isn't the only reason they vote for him, some Dean supporters' claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

No one votes for a candidate based on one reason, and one reason only.

[DebJ]

19. absolutely. they do, they have. They don't know if he's credible or not.

And yes people will vote for a candidate for one reason only. One issue voters are not uncommon.

[boxster]

29. You didn't answer my first question.

Do you really believe that people would vote for someone they do not find credible?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

47. Sure they would

Bush is, after all in the White House

[boxster]

51. Unfortunately, people thought he was

credible when they voted for him. Hell, nearly half the country STILL thinks he's credible.

[DebJ]

55. a poll on another thread from NBC in Chicago, 52% find Bush credible

[boxster]

58. Discouraging, though not terribly surprising.

I live smack dab in the middle of the red states (Nebraska), and I see it all the time. Bush won NE 63/33 in 2000, and his support hasn't waned significantly since then.

I didn't understand it then, and I don't now!

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Xanth]

59. Americans are morons?

I don't know where your from, but I could guess. If it's France please stay put. If your American and actually believe that your peers are morons then I feel sorry that they are acquainted with you. I believe you under estimate me and millions of Americans. It looks like you watch too much TV.

I truly believe that these Americans have heart and will fight for what is right. Yeah we bitch and moan if things aren't going our way. So what! Such is life. We have men running for the most powerful office in the world. There better be bitching and moaning if things aren't going our way. If we lose and fall down, then we dust off and fight again.

This free democracy allows these great men to debate what is best for my America. They have the freedom to exchange their views to show us their leadership. They have the freedom to go all across this great nation that they love and meet people from all walks of life. The same people you call morons.

I disagree with your view of Americans. I believe these Americans will vote with their hearts and minds. We will make a decision based on merit and leadership. We will vote for what is right for our country and its future.

As I write this I think of how John Edwards makes me feel when I see him talk to people. He does relate to people. He makes people feel real. That's the kind of person who wins hearts and minds.

In my opinion Kerry doesn't do that.

[DebJ]

23. nope.

[boxster]

26. Gee, that's helpful.

Thanks for sharing.

[Dookus]

28. then please provide any evidence

that Dean would do better than Kerry against Bush. "Because I think so" is not evidence.

[janx]

31. The voting demographics in the primaries versus those

in the general election are very different.

Most people unaffiliated with any political party don't vote in primaries. And Kerry is a very traditional and staid Democrat, one with the least appeal to independents, let alone disgruntled Republicans.

Dean appeals to disgruntled Republicans because (for one thing) many of the old Republicans are fiscal conservatives. Dean has a record of being a fiscal conservative.

Dean appeals to some libertarians (many of whom are the remnants of the old Republicans) for this reason and also because he doesn't want to see the federal government calling the shots when it comes to the rights of the individual. He has a strong interest in our Constitutional rights as individuals. He is willing to keep existing federal laws regarding second amendment rights, but to leave additional laws up to the people in individual states, depending on their circumstances. LIkewise, he signed the civil unions bill in Vermont AND insisted that anything related to marriage be left up to the states and the churches. He is very old fashioned and wise when it comes to separation of church and state, but since marriage entangles itself in both, the states should decide upon the law accordingly. This is a far cry from what Kerry tolerates, as evidenced by the recent Massachusetts decision that he criticized.

So while Kerry is picking up steam in the primaries because of his wins in Iowa and New Hampshire and his name recognition, he is less likely to compete in the general election. There are other reasons, too.

[stickdog]

49. Wrong. Dean is a guy with a truly MODERATE record whose truly

grassroots campaign excites many Green, independent and new voters alike.

And Dean is the only Democrat in the field who can credibly attack Bush from the right on Bush's out-of-control government spending and record deficits -- both of which speak directly to the profound alienation of traditional (as opposed to neo) conservatives from the wasteful Bushocracy.

[ButterflyBlood]

20. just someone explain

why only Dean can beat Bush.

all I have heard is just "I just know that Dean is the only one who can win." No evidence as to why, no proof to strengthen the case, just empty claims.

[seaglass]

25. It must be ESP. n/t

[boxster]

27. The people who claim that don't need proof.

They believe, and so should the rest of us. If we don't, we're too stupid to understand or we're sheep.

[DebJ]

30. One of Dean's strongest positions is balancing the budget. Very very

strong convictions on this and proof in his record as Governor.
This is a "Republican/Conservative" issue, is it not? And also one of the issues that has conservatives getting more and more upset and likely to NOT vote for Bush.

Yet with a budget under control, Dean is socially progressive. But unlike many Democrats, he understands that duh, first you have to have the money to do this. And then when he is socially progressive, he implements programs that actually can end up saving money in the long run....that is, get to the root causes of social spending needs and stomp out the cause instead of putting expensive bandaids on as 'solutions'. Get kids the help they need before six and insure they eat and have health insurance, THEN you can teach them, duh, and prevent needing to build a prison cell for many of them later.

Just the first two things that come to mind I've got to get out of here in a minute.

[janx]

48. Dean is very far ahead of his time, but a logical and

inevitable consequence of what happened to a Democrat when the Republican party got so completely hijacked.

He made the transition before that was apparent to most of us. He worked to elect Carter (he worked for the Carter faction and partied with the Kennedys, he now jokes) at just the time before this happened. Perhaps he knew it was happening.

The old Republicans were like Jeffords. One of my short stories, one that is the title to my next collection, deals with an old Republican and is called "Endangered Species."

Jeffords was by no means the first to jump ship. The old Republicans are labeled as rich and uncaring--and this is an unfair depiction of them. A lot of them weren't rich and did care about a lot of causes. I remember the days when these old Republicans were the staunchest supporters of the environment and the arts, but they worked with Democrats and people who were unaffiliated with either party in order to do so. The old Republicans thought that the federal government should not involve itself with the life or rights of the individual, yet they were always in favor of enabling individuals to achieve whatever was possible.

Things have changed drastically. The "culture war," a self-fulfilling prophesy of Patrick Buchanan's and other people, came about--what, 10 or 15 years ago?

The infiltration of the religious right into the party was TOTALLY antithetical to the beliefs of most old Republicans, and it took on a life of its own. Once religion got into the party of those old moderates, most of them fled.

Think of it this way. The so-called pundits refer to Pat Buchanan as a "paleo conservative." If this is paleo, Jeffords existed before the Big Bang. What does that tell you?

Where are they to go? Where are their followers to go? The ones who are still alive went independent (if they were officially registered Republicans in the first place).

Howard Dean is a son of these people. He is a staunch Democrat who appreciates the pragmatism and history of the old Republicans. The old Republicans do NOT EXIST anymore. Dean is taking the good part of the old Republicans--the fiscal responsibility, the independence of the individual, the pragmatism--and combining it with his Democratic ideals. Certain matters that used to clash between the old Republicans and Democrats do not clash in Howard Dean's world. They're perfectly mated.

He is trying to keep this country united and optimistic. We have to look ahead, you guys. So many of us are alienated.

[burning bush]

56. Kick for janx

Excellent bit there janx, nice to hear from you again, and dead on the money about Dean.

We simply have to apply Ghandi's philosophy to Dean -

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

The key element there is that to get to the end, you simply don't quit, even if all he Kerry supporters think you should "for the good of the party."

[DebJ]

57. love that Ghandi quote!

[NV1962]

35. Electability = perception = smoke + mirrors

With his cross-over appeal, Clark arguably topped the list of "electable" candidates - yet he had to drop out.

Let's campaign, then count the votes (leadership by example!) and then campaign again to kick the vote out in droves, and the monkey back to Crawford.

[DebJ]

37. Okay I gave two facts about Dean. Where are the rebuttals? Come on

now. I like to see the cards laid out on the table.

[Dookus]

46. Neither

of your arguments is unique to Dean.

Furthermore, balancing the budget in a state the size of Vermont is a lot easier than balancing the federal budget.


And Kerry, with his extremely high lifetime liberal voting record, also supports commonsense ideas to help our children.

Neither of your points show that Dean is more electable than Kerry. How about ANY indication that voters prefer Dean over Kerry when it comes to defeating Bush?

[stickdog]

38. Kerry is electable. Dean is not electable.

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*****

OK, who do you think is more electable?

[WillyT]

40. Damn That Sounds So Familiar, LOL !!!

Where oh where have I heard that before???

:hi::silly::hi:

[DebJ]

44. Repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth to the masses. * strategy

and also that of Hitler.

[janx]

53. I don't know and am waiting for the people on TV to decide. n/t

[burning bush]

39. Electability is an illusion

People are voting for kerry because he is "electable."

What is electability?

Simple - the ability of a candidate to easily win an election.

If the press turns on Kerry, then he wont be electable.

Let's take a trip in the way-back machine, ok?

Going into 1996, Al Gore was the most 2nd most electable Dem on the planet. He had everything going for him. Back in 1996, who would have ever thought that anyone could beat Gore in 2000, let alone the mentally defective, chimp faced scion of one of the most scandal prone, special interest tied political families in America?

But, Clinton "didn't have sex with that woman," and the press took it out on Gore. POOF! Electability is GONE IN 60 SECONDS!

I wonder if Al Gore could get elected anywhere right now, though he is probably the most experienced and principled public servant in the country.

So swing from the electability rope for all its worth. IMO, it doesn't matter if Kerry gets elected and Bush goes out.

Its more of the same, just with a more heroic, more intelligent, more refined Bonesman at the helm.

If all you want is to get rid of Bush, then that is ALL you will GET.

[eileen_d]

42. I want to get rid of Bush, and more

But I see getting rid of Bush as a critical first step. It won't make all the difference in the world if Kerry gets elected, but it will make a difference.

BTW, I'm not voting for Kerry in the primaries. But I support his candidacy and will continue to do so.

[DannyRed]

52. And two months ago,

Dean lost to Bush by about 4 points, and Kerry lost to Bush by about 6 points...

So two months ago, Dean was more "electable" than Kerry...right.

And in two months the character, policies, personalities, and core stances of these politicians has changed so drastically that now the spread is 20 points or so in the opposite direction....right?

No.

Here's my take, as a Dean supporter, mind you....

1) Bush is MASSIVELY unpopular. I think that the only candidate who does NOT stand a decent chance of beating Bush in November is Sharpton, and the only reason Sharpton has no chance is related to questions of (unfortunately and shamefully) race and racism and questions about his past activites and character (Tawana Brawley, for example)...

2) When Dean was grabbing headlines and making a splash and hammering at the Right and at Bush, the massive unpopularity of Bush was grafted onto the name "Dean"....

3) After a combination of concerted attacks (some fair, some unfair, some completely egregious) from the other candidates (specifically Kerry and Gephardt), along with stumbles and strategic mistakes by the Dean campaign, along with a barrage of nasty media hit pieces, the massive unpopularity of Bush was RE-grafted onto the name "Kerry"...

4) Should Kerry stumble (for any number of reasons) that unpopularity will be RE-re-grafted onto the most suitable and apparently "clean" candidate...it could be Dean, it could be Edwards.

But to base political prognostications and definitive statements on the latest poll numbers is both wrong and dangerous.

I am sure that you understand that, and if you don't I would remind you of the "bounce" effect...the Iraq war bounce, the Saddam Capture Bounce, and the (upcoming, to be sure, Osama capture Bounce)...

Okay?

[Anwen]

60. Polls CHANGE.

Kerry is the most "electable" right now because the media tells us so. I'm not saying that the poll is false, but it is not set in stone. A lot can happen between now and next November. Just because this poll suggests Kerry beats Bush with high numbers does not make it factual.