Roy Neel on "Hardball"--Dean is not dropping out

[janx]

Seventy five percent of the primary vote is still out there. Dean isn't going anywhere.

Gee, I wonder where the misinformation in the press came from?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Drop Out-What Would We Do Without Him?

NT

[jpgray]

1. Disaffected aides--Grossman, etc.

That was really bad pool to say anything to the press, off the record maybe, but not on. :(

[DoveTurnedHawk]

3. Grossman Is a Disloyal Shit

He never should have said those things.

DTH

[Snivi Yllom]

75. Grossman is a professional

A professional Turd.

[janx]

4. He sure seemed to do a lot of talking to the press in

a short amount of time!

If I'm right, this kind of thing will subside in the next couple of days. Let's wait and see if it does.

[stickdog]

48. Who cares about the next couple of days? The blow was perfectly

timed.

I couldn't have planned it better if I were Kerry's campaign manager.

Hmmm ...

[janx]

58. Stickdog, I agree, but I don't know if it is insurmountable.

The last few days have been the most distorted in terms of coverage (even considering the "Scream") that I have witnessed.

Let's see what happens.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

2. Some People Don't Know When To Go

I am so relieved that at least my candidate was able to retain his dignity.

I cannot say the same will hold true for Dean.

DTH

[Anwen]

5. Are you suggesting that Dean

Edwards, Kucinich and Sharpton should all drop out because they are all behind Kerry?

Why should Dean drop out when he has the second most delegates?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

6. Not The Tired "Delegates" Argument

Remove the superdelegates, who certainly will not stay with a sinking ship, and Dean is not in second. Edwards is.

What matters is that Dean was once the front-runner, and now he is an also-ran. He is polling poorly, and will not be able to stop Kerry.

It just looks pathetic, IMO, for a candidate to experience double-digit drubbing after double-digit drubbing, and still stay in.

DTH

[mzmolly]

9. Super Delegates count in this Democracy.

I am certainly not happy with the entire primary process, but we can't pick and choose what we like/dont like about it. Facts are facts.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

11. Superdelegates Will Not Stick With Dean

Watch for an exodus after WI, if Dean stays in. You are counting your chickens before the eggs are even laid, if you're including superdelegates in Dean's total.

DTH

[janx]

24. The superdelegates are still there now.

We'll see what happens.

[Anwen]

13. Not only delegates

But Dean is also (slightly) still ahead of Edwards in wins. Yes, Edwards won South Carolina, but that was his home turf. He hasn't produced any other first place victories in the south.

And according to the recent Zogby poll, Dean is currently ahead of Edwards in Wisconsin. Dean's numbers have been improving dramatically in recent days.

I think it would be "pathetic" for Dean to drop out when he is still clearly in this race.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

17. What Possible Permutation Shows Dean "Ahead" in Wins?

Dean has zero wins. Even his DC primary win was meaningless; when the delegates were actually allocated in the caucuses, he took 3rd behind Sharpton (!).

Edwards has won more delegates than Dean, and has one win to Dean's zero.

DTH

[Anwen]

26. I'm not talking about first place wins.

As for the DC caucus -- he came in 3rd behind Sharpton, yes. But where was Edwards? Did he come in first? Oops, no, that was Kerry.

It's absolutely premature to say that Dean (or anybody else) should drop out with 75% of delegates left to hand out.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

27. We Are Human Beings With the Capacity to Reason

It would be foolish masochism to continue on in an obviously hopeless endeavor.

When faced with a superior force which has already savaged you brutally, there comes a time when surrender is a preferable option to fighting to the last person. While the latter might be more satisfying to the true-believers, the former is much less destructive.

DTH

[Anwen]

36. Dean has already stated

that he will not run a quixotic campaign. After Wisconsin he is going to reassess his course of action depending on how he does. He is quite reasonable and is not going to do anything to harm the Democratic party.

But as long as he has a chance, he is going to remain in this race. And I applaud him for that, along with the other candidates, who are not going to cave under the momentum of the front-runner. They are giving us a choice.

[janx]

40. We Are Also Human Beings With The Capacity to Count Delegates

no?

[lancdem]

25. How exactly is Dean ahead of Edwards in wins?

What creative math are you using? He has zero wins in 16 primaries while Kerry has won in all regions of the country. And Zogby has Dean trailing Kerry by 24 points in Wisconsin, a state Dean has campaigned hard in. I'm sorry, I just don't see what you're seeing.

[Anwen]

46. Obviously I am not talking about 1st place wins...

Edwards has a first place win, Dean doesn't. I am talking about the fact that Dean has beaten Edwards in 8 out of 15 contests so far.

As for the Zogby poll, he is still definitely behind Kerry, but his numbers have jumped considerably. Wasn't he in single digits just last week? And wasn't he behind Edwards? According to the new poll he's currently ahead of Edwards by 2 or 3 points.

[stickdog]

54. Dean has beaten Edwards head to head in 9 of 16 races.

10 of 17 is you include Democrats abroad, and 6 of the last 8 -- losing to Edward only in VA & TN -- which he didn't even contest.

[lancdem]

14. And all the back and forth on whether or not he's dropping out

makes his campaign look indecisive and disorganized.

[Anwen]

65. You can thank the media for that.

They took his Wisconsin fundraiser email and ran with it. Dean never said he would quit after Wisconsin -- they put the words in his mouth.

The media has effectively made his campaign look indecisive and disorganized. But that is no reason to bow out.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Some DUers Have To Be Old Enough To Remember the Thrilla In Manilla.....

Muhummad Ali and Joe Frazier were involved in a monumental struggle and by the fifteenth round Joe Frazier was nearly blinded...

His manager had seen Frazier had enough and wouldn't let him come out for the fifteenth round to take a further beating...

Like Dean he had enough....

Who will tell Dean it's over?

[janx]

28. "Who will tell Dean it's over" ? People like you and DTH

might try, granted. ;-)

But I think you might be surprised at his tenacity.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

30. Surprised? I Will Pity It, More Like. (eom)

DTH

[janx]

35. Feel free to express your words of false pity.

It's unlikely you'll be in the majority though. Not in the long run.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

37. No No...It Will Definitely Be Real Pity

Precisely because it will be so sad and pathetic, IMO.

I acknowledge I could be wrong...I would rate the odds at about 98-99% in my favor, however. I think that's right around where the bookmakers are, too.

DTH

[diamondsoul]

49. So much arrogance.

We've a long way to go to convention. I'm disappointed, DTH.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

55. Hate to Disappoint You, DiamondSoul

But I've always been arrogant, and have never made any apologies for it.

Peace.

DTH

[GodHelpUsAll2]

64. Arrogance

Is putting it mildly.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

63. By those standards

Kerry should have dropped out before the voting started.

[bigwillq]

12. Why don't you think Dean will leave with dignity?

I'm just curious to know your opinion.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

15. If He Gets Drubbed in WI and Stays In

Then I think he will have overstayed his welcome, so to speak. It will look sad and pathetic, rather than determined.

Obviously, YMMV.

DTH

[janx]

29. Overstayed his welcome?

Is he a guest in this race?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

31. "So to Speak"

It's just a saying, not a precise analogy.

DTH

[janx]

70. I only wish I could say

what I want to say about this.

[bigwillq]

32. So the same could be said about

Edwards, Kucinich, and Sharpton? I feel those candidates not named Kerry are doing what they feel is right by staying in. They're standing up for their cause and are giving people a choice this primary season. Just b/c the majority isn't on their side, do you just give up your fight?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

33. Eventually, Yes (eom)

DTH

[janx]

18. Dean has more dignity than any of them--

and twice as much integrity. Unlike some politicians, he has no need to compromise his beliefs and that of his supporters to further his political ambitions.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

20. I Suppose We'll Have to Agree to Disagree...Strongly (eom)

DTH

[EXE619K]

38. So, when is a good time to "go"?

Perhaps, his supporters will decide that.

I can certainly understand the position of his detractors.

But, afterall, this is America.

[stickdog]

51. Clark being a prime example!

Re-draft Clark!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

53. Clark Would Have Nothing of It

I have no desire to re-draft him right now. Regardless, I'm not talking about the behavior of supporters; I'm talking about the behavior of the candidates.

Quite a few people have trouble with that distinction on DU, IMO, especially in light of the, "Supporters of Candidate X were mean to me, I will never vote for Candidate X!" threads that were once so popular around here.

DTH

[stickdog]

56. Clark would be a far better nominee than Kerry. Therefore, I think

his premature withdrawal from the race ill-served his country.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

59. LOL! That's the First Time I've Seen You Compliment Clark.

Regardless, he saw the writing on the wall, and retained his dignity. I reject your opinion about him not serving his county well, especially in light of his 34 years of dedicated service.

But then coming from me, that could hardly surprise you, no?

DTH

[stickdog]

61. 1) All things are relative. 2) I didn't mean to imply that Clark's record

(or even Kerry's for that matter) is one of ill-service.

[burning bush]

68. Oh please, you assume too much

if you assume that your candidate set the standard for dignity in this race.

Better to die on my feet than to live on my knees

I don't even care about winning anymore, its now about fighting for what I believe in, to the last breath.

The VERY last breath.

If I go down hard in such a fight, then I don't need lessons in dignity from anyone.

Not even you.

[lancdem]

7. Actually, Dean staying in the race helps Kerry

because it keeps this from becoming a two-man race.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

10. I'm Not Really in Favor of "Metapolitics" Like That

But I acknowledge what you say is probably true.

If Dean is done -- and I believe he is -- then I think it's only sporting for him to drop out and give Edwards a shot. I support Kerry, but I also want the strongest nominee to emerge from this process. (Well, the STRONGEST nominee has already dropped out, but I know and accept that the voters did not agree with me.)

DTH

[janx]

22. DTH, Dean will not disappear.

Should he not win the nomination, he will still be very much around.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

23. I Would Actually Love Dean for DNC Chair

I think that is one role that he would excel in.

DTH

[janx]

45. That probably would not be allowed.

He might excel a little too well, if you know what I mean.

[regnaD kciN]

72. No kidding...

...the "reasonable, sensible Democratic leadership" (i.e. the Democratic LOSERship Council, Terry McAuliffe, etc., etc.) would never stand for someone they spent the past half-year bashing as "out of step" with all but an "activist liberal elite" take the reins of the party.

If the Democrats win in November, the only future post I could imagine for Dean would be as Surgeon General. But the fact is, I'm pretty sure the Democratic leadership's plans for Dean include putting him on display at regular intervals to speak in favor of Kerry during the General Election campaign, then expecting him to go back to Vermont and fade away while the "grown-ups" take charge.

:grr:

[janx]

74. I don't think that his plans are the same as theirs.

;-)

[janx]

34. This is not exactly a trite, brandy snifter sort of discussion, DTH.

Dean is not going anywhere.

[stickdog]

57. Only sporting of the second place guy to bail to give the third place guy

"his" shot?

[janx]

62. Welcome to the "gentlemen's club," Stickdog. n/t

[dansolo]

66. If Dean felt that Edwards would promote his agenda

Then he probably would do just that. Dean is not in merely as the anti-Kerry. He has a message that he wants to promote. He has a national stage in which to promote it. Once he is out of the race, he will be hidden away by the Democratic leadership. Now may be his only real shot to promote change. Look at what effect he has had already. Realize that we don't have a true Democracy. Some voices get heard, while most are ignored. I think that Howard Dean should take advantage of the spotlight while he can.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Unfortunately He's Beginning To Look Like Kerry's Tackling Dummy

NT

[janx]

50. He may look that way to you--

but this often depends on which "team" you're on, doesn't it?

[mzmolly]

8. GREAT NEWS! I am sooo glad.

:toast:

[NNN0LHI]

21. They are murdering Bush here. I can't believe this n/t

[Florida_Geek]

39. Kerry could go down in Flames over his "zipper" problems.

Drudge has a new spin on it now. And if there are any more out there Rove will find them. Rove does not want to run against Kerry. Hopefully Kerry has not played around once married. But if he has, Rove will find out about it.

[ozone_man]

43. That's right,

zipper gate may not be over, or maybe zipper gate II. Best to have a real contest. This is a contest, is it not? What kind of a Democracy do we live in, if we nominate a candidate before 75% of the people get to decide? That's a recipe for a bored, disenfranchised electorate, fertile ground for another Bush win.

[janx]

44. That was Neel's point, I believe. He represents the campaign.

Thank God Tweety had him on tonight so that he could undo some of the damage that Grossman did.

[WillyT]

41. Good For Dean --- And Good For Kerry Too !!!

According to this here theory: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=343670

:shrug:

[janx]

47. Thanks for the link. I agree. It would be foolish

to limit the race to one contender at this point.

Economically, you could look at it from a couple of different viewpoints (or maybe more):

--It's better to have all unite around one and pool their money there; or,

--It's better to have the supporters of a small number pooling their money and keeping the publicity going


The latter is clearly better because you are making the assumption that those who supported other candidates will support the only one left. That's a gamble. The publicity is greater with a number of them in the race--that's a given.

[arwalden]

42. So He MISLED His Supporters With That DIRE Email Begging For More Money?

How can he be trusted after a stunt like that? Clearly he's part of the "establishment". This is something that the DLC would do so he's no different than Bush. I feel so betrayed. :hi:

-- Allen

[janx]

52. Have you been reading too many AP articles in the

last couple of days? ;-)

[arwalden]

60. Nope... I Just Make It Up As I Go Along

It's easy and fun. So simple a child can do it. Fun for the whole family. :hi:

-- Allen

[janx]

73. Kind of the way the journalists do?

?

[Tinoire]

67. Article: "Media chiefs back Kerry campaign" Guardian Feb 10, 2004

batman (230 posts) Mon Feb-16-04 07:01 PM
Original message
"Media chiefs back Kerry campaign" Guardian Feb 10, 2004

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0%2C13918%2C1144797%2C00.html

Fresh from his latest win in Maine, the favourite to challenge George Bush for the US presidency has secured the financial support of some of the most powerful media moguls in the world.
As John Kerry's campaign to secure the Democrat nomination - and with it a crack at the White House - continues to gather pace, it has emerged that it is being bankrolled by key executives from News Corporation, MTV-owner Viacom and Sony.

<snip>

"Unsurprisingly, the donation from News Corp's boardroom came not from chairman Rupert Murdoch, a committed Republican, but from the company's chief operating officer, Peter Chernin.

Mr Chernin, one of Mr Murdoch's most trusted lieutenants, is among several media chiefs who have pledged to raise between $50,000 and $100,000 to support the Vietnam war veteran's campaign for the White House.

Others who have pledged to raise more than $50,000 include the Viacom chief executive, Sumner Redstone, and Sony chairman Howard Stringer, whose name has recently been linked with the vacant chairmanships at ITV and the BBC.

US political commentators have speculated that Mr Kerry has enjoyed the support of the media community in an effort to head off the challenge of Howard Dean, who has fallen back in the race despite being the frontrunner before the primaries began. Mr Dean made statements last year about wanting to break up media conglomerates."

<snip> <the entire article is worth reading>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=345765

[genius]

69. Haven't you heard? Everyone's dropping out.

Read this board.

[janx]

71. I guess nobody noticed that Dean is a man of history