As Dean's hopes fade, Democrats wonder about supporters' votes

[maddezmom]

By Thomas Fitzgerald

Knight Ridder Newspapers



SUPERIOR, Wis. - Janice Ward believes. She went to Iowa to knock on doors for former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean and drew 12 people to a meet-up she put together at the Eagles Lodge in Marcell, Minn., near her home deep in the Chippewa National Forest.


Last week, Ward drove 120 miles on rural highways to attend a rally in Wisconsin for Dean, who's staking his comeback hopes on winning Tuesday's Wisconsin primary.


"I won't vote for anybody else," said Ward, 53. "If he doesn't get in, I'm a disenfranchised voter. You have to vote for what you believe in."


That sentiment crops up often at rallies as Dean enters what could be the final days of his once high-flying campaign for president. He's lost 16 contests in a row, and polls show that he trails the front-runner, Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts, by margins of as much as 5 to 1 in Wisconsin.


But Dean has built a passionate base of believers, many of them new to politics, and some Democrats are wondering what those believers might do if Dean leaves the race. If enough of these "Deaniacs" sit on their hands in the fall, that would make it harder for Democrats to topple President Bush.

~snip~

more: http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/7961932.htm

[Guaranteed]

1. Yeah...I don't see Kerry

winning in November.

[Burma Jones]

8. I think he can win

He just doesn't make me care about it in any other context besides ridding ourselves of Chimpy. Even then, I'm starting to feel that we're going to need another four years of rethug rule before people get up off their asses enough to really shake up the power elite. I don't know, but Kerry depresses me while Chimpy enrages me, take your pick

[Guaranteed]

10. "Kerry depresses me while Chimpy enrages me, take your pick"

That's a good way of putting it.

Although Kerry enrages me a bit, too. People's lack of integrity REALLY pisses me off.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BruinAlum]

2. Very insightful article

[drfemoe]

3. Great Article

Ask yourself how you would feel if your candidate were disenfranchised. Nothing personal, you know. The right message (issues), but the wrong agenda . . .

..."There may not be any love for Kerry among our base, but there's a passion for beating Bush," Neel said. "What will be important is how John Kerry communicates with these guys. I think he'd have to say more than `Howard Dean's a great guy. Thanks for your participation.' He'd really have to address their issues."

In "Deanland," Kerry is seen as the guy who stole Dean's outsider message. Supporters also blame Kerry backers for nasty attack ads in Iowa and New Hampshire. The ads showed pictures of Osama bin Laden and questioned Dean's foreign-policy credentials.

"I am not happy with Kerry taking positions he thinks people want to hear," said Carol M. Davis of Williston, Vt., who's calling Wisconsin residents to urge them to vote for Dean. "He got back on the bandwagon adopting Dean's positions once he figured they were safe, but he avoids anything that might be tricky. ... Dean spoke plainly and clearly. You have no doubts where he stands, and you can listen to him longer without feeling nauseous." ...

[Atlant]

4. Think "Green".

(Unless it's Nader or LaDuke, then somewhere else.)

Atlant

[Robb]

5. Keep wondering.

Keep saying it's over.

We love that.

[Woman of the Phoenix]

6. You're right.

Dean could still pull it out.

If not, I seriously don't know how I can vote for Kerry.

[dd123]

7. Doesn't matter, I'm voting Dean anyway - write in if I have to.

And I don't even know if my state allows write ins!

[LuminousX]

9. If I can't vote Dean in the primary, I'm not voting in the primary

In the General Election, I will be casting an Anti-Bush vote, NOT a Pro-Kerry vote. He has totally stripped away any and all respect I had for him in the 80's and 90's and I am ashamed to think that just two years ago I was salivating at the idea of him running as President. Now I see he is part of the D.C. MachineWorks - nothing will change under a President Kerry.

[corporatewhore]

11. you can always write him in if he aint on your states ballot

[LuminousX]

14. I'm too much of a realist - the write in would be meaningless

Since I'm in Illinois, I feel 98% certain the we will select a good person to replace Fitzgerald, my only driving goal was to elect Dean.

I think it is better for my health and sanity to focus on helping turn the Dean movement into a political movement that transcends this one election.

[Guaranteed]

12. Kerry'll take either one of those votes, though

It's all the same to him.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gin]

13. Iraq invasion is my major issue......Dean is my choice......November

is a long way off...If it's not Dean...I don't know today how I will vote in November.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

44. There was this one guy I read about...

he actually VOTED against the invasion and led a bunch of other house members to also vote against it.

But I heard he is unelectable and not worth any media coverage.. shhhh.


:)

TWL

[NightNurse]

48. I Printed Out this Thread and I'm Planting it in my Garden.

Great fertilizer, Folks:nopity:

[Walt Starr]

16. I know lot's of people like this

They are in this for Dean and nobody else will do.

[WilliamPitt]

17. IMO

This is a pain issue. A lot of people are furious and disappointed. I believe, with time, the reality of Bush will become clear again.

I will say this: If Dean supporters jump to the Green Party, I will lose a lot of respect for them. Not because I have a beef with the Green party. Because a jump from an economic/social center-right Democrat to a far-left party will demonstrate that the Dean folk who make the jump didn't have a dime's bit of understanding about the policy differences between Dean and Green.

That having been said, I hope that once the swelling goes down we can all band together.

[dave29]

18. It is a pain issue

it's painful either way.

[Atlant]

20. The reality of Bush is perfectly clear to me.

The reality of Kerry, and the lengths he was willing to go to to
achieve the nomination, and the lengths that the Party regulars
were willing to go to to ensure that my candidate (or any other
"insurgent" candidate) didn't get the nomination are all becoming
more and more clear to me with every passing day.

Please don't expect me to get over this by November and once
again vote for the D's just because they're not George Bush.

This year, it's not happening.

Atlant

[VelmaD]

21. Unfortunately I think...

you'd better get ready to be really disappointed in some people Will. One of the things I find most frustrating is the number of people I know personally who are usually fairly far to the left who are supporting Dean. All they know is he "opposed the Iraq War and supported gay marriage" and they either don't know or don't care about the rest of his record as governor.

Given their lack of "understanding" of Dean's record in the first place I sincerely doubt some of them will see any conflict in jumping from him to the Greens.

I hope I'm wrong for the significant majority of Dean supporters and that I've just met a really non-representative sample.

[dave29]

23. Amazing how to this day

people do not "get" Dean supporters. We know his record. Probably better than any other supporter's know thier candidate's records.

We are not just voting about Iraq, or civil unions, we are voting to change the Democratic Party to stand up for what it believes in again. To stop being in the pocket of special interests. To do what's right, not what's politically expedient. To take a chance on greatness rather than the same old BS.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

27. Not all Dean supporters agree on all things

stop speaking so monolithically.

[dave29]

40. of course we don't

but I hate to break it to you, Kerry speaks more like a giant emotionless rock than all the other candidates combined. And there's one thing most Dean supporters are unified on: our distaste for Kerry as the nominee.

I know I know, the feeling is mutual. Move right along.

;)

[Ramsey]

39. You are wrong

Most Dean supporters can quote his specific policies on any issue in great detail. It is incorrect to call Dean "center-right" to begin with. He is an independent thinker who examines the practical solution to each problem regardless of politics.

Some Dean supporters may go Green, some may stay home, and some will vote for the Democratic nominee. The eventual candidate should be busting his butt to ensure that the majority of us do the latter.

[Walt Starr]

22. I think a lot of people are going to be surprised

at the numbers of people who will be voting Green who were for Dean.

All in all, the numbers of Dean supporters who will just plain stay home will be staggering.

[Upfront]

66. I Agree.

Dean is the best man to run sense RFK, and he was treated badly by the DLC, DNC, Media, and the other candadates. I won't forget when I vote. The special interest money has control but they won't get my vote. My eye's are now open and I see the true picture, and it is sad.

[CTLawGuy]

24. I will vote for Kerry in the GE

if he apologizes publicly for voting for the IWR. period.

[EXE619K]

30. I don't believe this "generalization" of Dean supporters is true.

The majority of people in the Dean camp are affiliated with the Democratic Party and yes, that's true.

However, after attending a lot of Dean "Meet-ups" and having gone to many of his support rallies, there are many "non-Democrats" in his camp as well(for example myself...supported Bradley and McCain in 2000 and all of the people that I worked for in the McCain camp here, I found that most of them became Dean supporters.)

Now, I've always wondered why Dean has such a strong support from the "far-left" of the Democratic Party. As an Independent, this baffled me for a while.

But, after speaking with other "Diehards" of Dean locally, I'm certain that most people who support Dean know very well "who" their candidate is and also; they are well versed in his accomplishments and record.

As a "Deaner" for over 14 months now, I can only tell you this:

1. The Dean campaign, in origin, was driven by the ABB theme like other campaigns. Yet, the underlying force of the Dean Movement is fueled by rebellion.
Rebellion in particular to the dissatisfaction of the continual loss of The Democratic Party in 2000 and 2002. When Dean commented that the current Democratic field as "cockroaches", a lot of Democrats were angry for attacking one of their own. However, it caused a euphoric response from within the ranks of "Deaners".

2. Pragmatism is blind to political ideology. As I have mentioned, Most "Deaners" know that their candidate is NOT a "far left-winger". But, we are ardent supporters of Dean because of his accomplishments in Vermont and his "less than subtle" critique of his own political party.
True leadership is not defined by how well a person follows a crowd. True leaders will criticize their own and not be afraid to do so. During his time as Governor of Vermont, he went against the grain of his Liberal support and did the right thing to make that state a better place for ordinary citizens. Dean is a pragmatist, not a "politics as usual" leader.

I think people in the other camps should know that the heart that pumps the Dean campaign is not about political ideology of Liberal or Conservative politics.

It's rooted in Rebellion and Pragmatism.

[Egnever]

61. oops double post

:+ :+ :+

[Egnever]

62. Exactamundo!

I know Deans record well. At no point in time did i ever believe he was a "liberal".

He is my candidate because he is willing to call a spade a spade regardless of political ideology.

I know he went against the liberal constituency in his state many times throughout his career as Governor and rather than being disappointed in it I am pleased by it. The far left is wring as often as is the far right. A true leader examines a situation and makes a decision on what he believes is the right thing to do. This is what I see in Dean. I never loved him because he was a lefty I loved him because he was willing to stand up and do what he thought was right and willing to fight for it.

Despite the many posts here crying out about how much of a corporatist or whatever the favored label of the day is for him. I like the end result of his leadership in Vermont. Balanced budgets year after year at the same time that health care was provided for all children, school funding was distributed evenly to change the disparity of inner city and urban schools, Child abuse down 46 %!, Child sexual abuse down 70 %!!!!, and a ranking in the top 6 in the nation on both environmental issues and economic issues.

No my love of Dean has absolutely nothing to do with any label anyone wants to put on him it has to do with the results he provided to Vermont and his willingness to stand up to the powers that be in Washington !

Will I vote green in the GE?

Perhaps it would depend on the candidate put forward. As it looks now we are being force fed Kerry and he does nothing to inspire me to want him to be my president other than he is not bush.

Bush is god awful and I do want him out but at what cost I don't know.

If he is defeated in November by Kerry it ensures the problems that exist in the democratic party at the moment remain for another four years and brings a choice in 4 more years again of the least horrible of the D or R. I absolutely will not vote for Kerry again in 08 unless my impression of him turns out to be completely wrong. We will see but I doubt it.

So what will we have won if I help Kerry get into office? A short respite from the far right followed by a return to power by them in four years with someone perhaps not so glaringly horrible that will be able to hold on for much longer than bush.

It is a tough choice for me allow the cancer to remain by voting for Kerry and bite the bullet and take the four years of pain ensured by a bush win to be followed by a total shake up of what I see at this time as a totally complicit and corrupt democratic party.

Its a tough choice for me i have yet to decide which way I will go.

[RetroLounge]

35. Well, luckily, I don't need the respect

of DK's Press Secretary :)

But either way, I am hardcore Dean Supporter, but would NEVER EVER consider voting Green, even if Howard Dean became the Green candidate.

Not this year.

Not against this White House.

Not against this bush*.

Not...

If I have to vote for Kerry in the GE, it will be with a hand holding my nose, and without pride, but it will need to be.

[Ramsey]

38. Not going Green

Nader killed any possible support I might have ever given the Greens last time around. Anyway, I'm not that far lefty to begin with.

Dean isn't really center-right though. He is uncategorizable. The main reason I love Dean is that I believe he takes each issue, studies it and comes up with the best policy response, regardless of the left or rightness of it. He is practical rather than political. Thus, his policies and platform fall along different sides of the political spectrum for different issues. I greatly admire that independence of thought. Can't say that about any of the Washington crew. There really is no substitute for that, when you care about the person rather than some pre-defined ideology.

I am a Democrat and I'll be voting Democratic in November. But I am working for Dean until the day he says he is no longer running. Whether I work for another nominee depends upon how much he speaks to me. He'll get my vote, but he may not get my passion, my time or my dollars.

[indigo32]

42. I'd like to see people back off and let that happen (the swelling go down)

yeah some people are howling awful loud I'll admit (and for some good reasons, just not good enough to not vote D in GE IMO).
The folks telling them to shut right up (with words like purges, treason, on and on) are only egging them on I'm afraid. LET IT BE for a little while... even if it pisses you off. You're not going to win everyone... but you'll get more than you would with the bullying.

This isn't directed at you necessarily... just a good catalyst for thoughts that have been going through my mind.

[formernaderite]

43. Alot of Dean voters won't have to jump ship..they're greens.

I'm still on the fence, I'm voting for Dean in my states primary. Yes I'm furious with the DNC and the media regarding their treatment of Dean.
However, I know alot of Dean people who did vote for the Greens and Nader, who are taking a second look at the democratic party. Kerry doesn't do much for them, so I don't see them jumping ship to the democratic party.
My initial angry reaction was to NOT support Kerry if he wins the nomination. I'll state that I'm now on the fence, I'll wait and see how he takes the Bush machine on.

[NightNurse]

49. a-HA!!! Colonel Mustard in the Drawing Room with the candlestick!

I knew it:think: knew it:crazy: knew it:mad:

[liberalmike27]

19. He

He shold be worried. Some will go green, some will not vote from disgust. Kerry used some very unsavory techniqes to unseat Dean, was constantly critical of Dean without media reproach when Dean was ahead, and was allowed free reign, still is. If Dean says anything negative he gets beaten down by the media bat. They don't really need for him to actually do anything, look at the rally speech, which they used to twist the knife they'd already shoved deeply into his back, to kill of Dean's campaign, to steal many poor peoples' money who'd contributed to Dean and spent much time and effort to get him elected, and the DLC actually added some really unsavory ads on top of that. How can anyone who watched all of that transpire (core support, not those who I saw jump on bandwagon in my Mobile Dean group, who've now jumped to Kerry's bandwagon) not have reservations about almost everything? If Dean had lost fair and square it'd have been one thing, but this has been the most rigged primary in history, and it seems we've ended up with the weakest candidate in the pack, with the exception of Kucinich and Sharpton.

Whatever I end up doing, I won't be working or contributing to Kerry's campaign, and I'm hoping they don't give my email address and information to Kerry either. I'd imagine a lot of my group is the same.

[seaglass]

25. Maybe Nader was right, but instead of 4 years of Bush

it's going to take 8 years of Bush for this country to wake the fuck up.

I thought the uniting goal of this website was to remove Bush from power.

I will not forget 2000, I will not weaken in my resolve to remove Bush.

If others don't care about removing Bush anymore, no matter your justification, then we are not on the same side.

While I have a preference for Kerry, at this point I don't care who gets the nomination, all are preferable to Bush.

[Atlant]

33. Merely removing Bush is insufficient.

Merely removing Bush is insufficient; there's always another R/W Bozo
they can prop-up as the President.

We also need to remove:

• The Republican Senate
  
  
• The Republican House
  
  
• The Republican Supreme Court
  
  
• The Republican State Legislatures
  
  
• The Republican Governors
  
  
• The Corporatist Media

*THIS* is what the Dean campaign was about!

It wasn't just about removing George Bush and substituting (in four
years) Jeb Bush. Or Tom DeLay. Or Dennis Hastert. It was about making
the sorts of systematic changes that would remove the entire Riech
Wing from their stranglehold on American politics and American
popular discourse.

When the Democratic Party decided to do-in Dean's run, they decided
in favor of maintaining all the usual crap. If the only thing we're
changing is the name on the White House letterhead, we've lost.

And believe me, in 2004, we've lost, even if we *DO* change the
name on the letterhead.

Atlant

[seaglass]

46. It may be insufficient but it is better than keeping Bush

in office. It is a starting point, we can't do anything without him gone.

[Atlant]

57. It may not be better if it means that the Democrats compromise their...

It may not be better if it means that the Democrats compromise their
future even further. I submit that the changes the Democrats made to
get Clinton elected in '92 were responsible for the fact that they've
been losing many other contested elections since then.

I'd rather lose the Presidency in '04 and wake up to find a transformed
Democratic Party than to win the Presidency but still see the Senate,
House, Supreme Court, most State Houses, most Governorships, and the
Media all remain in Republican hands.

Atlant

[seaglass]

64. If Kerry is the nominee and he loses, which direction

are you suggesting that the Dem party will move in? If none of the candidates from a further left Kucinich to a further right Dean can get enough of the D vote to get the nomination how would this point towards the obvious future direction the party?

[w4rma]

26. If it's Kerry vs. Bush in November. I'll pull the lever for Kerry, easily.

As president he had better renegotiate trade agreements in a way that keeps American jobs American especially for manufacturing, technical and accounting industries. He had better handle Iraq much differently than Bush is doing.

I currently believe that he will do these things. I don't see any signs that he won't.

[mzmolly]

54. I may pull the lever, but not quite *easilly*

:(

[stickdog]

28. Kerry is ENTITLED to the Presidency.

He certainly doesn't need our help.

[Dookus]

29. The only people

who say Kerry is entitled to the presidency is people who hate him. I've never heard him or his supporters say any such thing.

He will have earned the nomination in the best way possible - by getting more people to vote for him. That's happening now. In that sense, he's entitled to the nomination by virtue of the fact he's beating the snot out of all his opponents. Democratic primary voters seem to prefer Kerry handily over the other candidates. That's democracy for ya.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

32. The biggest beef I have

Is the DNC taking the attitude that 80% of it's base doesn't count. To EXPECT that 80% to sit down, shut up and do as they are told is no different than what happened in Florida in 2000. I am deeply disappointed in the manner in which the Democratic Party is handeling this primary. Therefore I have been left with no other choice but to rethink whether the DNC really differes that much from what the RNC expects from their voter base.

[seaglass]

34. It is up to the candidates and their supporters to stay in,

are they canceling the rest of the primaries after tomorrow?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

36. May as well be

What good is a primary if there is no choice? It's up to the DNC to make it as difficult as possible for anyone they don't deem fit to stay in. If the DNC truely cared what's it's base thought then Terry Mac would keep his mouth shut and let it run it's course. Has he done that? NO, he has been very vocal about how the candidates who have not done as well should step down because they are "Hurting the party" that is cause for rethinking.

[diamondsoul]

37. You're right about the "entitled" bit.

Until recently I'd never have said that, but watching him lately he ACTS like he's entitled to it. Now in this post you've said it, and I disagree wit the reason you gave.

John Kerry has not convinced me to vote for him. In fact HE personally has been the one to convince me NOT to want to vote for him. The press OTOH with its declarations of a Kerry victory with less than 50% of the votes cast in a Primary or Caucus is certainly doing its best to snow the rest of America into backing him. I'm sorry, if this offends you, because I really hate to sound malicious. Right now the thought of John Kerry winning the nomination disgusts me because from my vantagepoint the entire process has been destroyed in his favor.

If he was getting these votes because he's best on the issues it would be one thing, but he isn't. He's getting them because people are following the herd, and that pisses me off.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

31. I know where I'm going...

Nader Expected to Launch New Bid for the White House

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0214-05.htm

by Maria Recio

 
WASHINGTON - Oops, Ralph Nader's doing it again.

Almost exactly four years after he announced he would run for president, the former Green Party candidate is poised to declare that he's running again this year, this time as an independent.

Despite a vigorous effort on the part of the left to keep Nader from running and despite his insistence that he's still mulling over his decision, friends, associates and insiders say he's determined to run again.

"I think there's very little doubt," said Micah Sifry, the author of a book on third-party politics and a longtime Nader watcher. "I think he's going to run."

Nader has twice delayed saying whether he would be a candidate, but with the anniversary of his Feb. 21, 2000, announcement coming up, insiders expect the latest declaration next week.


-------
if it means bush re-election, so be it

I'd rather get an open primary in 2008 and a chance to change the party's course than sit through 8 years of corporate-globalist triangulation that faces little resistance from the left out of fear of criticizing 'our guy'

clinton took this country to the right further than reagan could have possibly dreamed. when a so-called 'democrat' proposes this crap, they don't face the resistance from the left that occurs when a republican does it. at least under reagan-bush people were alert enough that they couldn't shove 'free trade' down our throats.

and kerry voted for the war. the 'i was tricked by the president' excuse doesn't fly with me. if everyone here and the millions who protested the war could see through bush, why couldn't kerry when we really needed him?

[poskonig]

41. Enjoy Chief Justice Scalia for FORTY years.

That's a long damn time, my friend. Say goodbye to ALL of our soon to be 'unconstitutional' environmental, women's, church and state, consumer, worker, and health laws.

Kerry is one of the most liberal men in the Senate. Get with the program!

[maxanne]

58. the aforementioned liberal man

voted to confirm Scalia.

Next?

[BL_Zebub]

59. If Kerry is such a goddamned "liberal"

Then why in HELL has he spent the last three years voting in lock step with the most dangerous right wing fascist agenda forced upon this country in history?

[janx]

53. If you really support Dean now, don't be so quick to jump

to Nader.

Even if Dean doesn't get the nomination (and this is not certain), you can bet that he will be sticking around.

He's very serious about taking this country back. I hope you will wait and see what happens.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guava Jelly]

50. then you waste a chance of cancelling out a bush vote

No matter how pissed you are...As i am at how the media also treated clark like crap.
If you do not vote then you help bush.
Bush rove and all the wingnuts Want you to bem pissed they want you not to vote.
If you do not vote and Dubya wins by one vote Who can you Blame?:?????
If you vote for Ralph nader and bush wins by one vote who can you blame.
Nader is a spoiler not a winner

[CWebster]

52. The Democratic establishment should've worried about that

before they toiled to destroy Dean and dissed his supporters - while taking our vote for granted.

[Guava Jelly]

55. boy you will show them

by getting bush a second term.
I thought only freepers drank the koolaide
I am a die hard clarkie
No matter who gets the nod I will vote for.
Why because the supreme court is to important to let bush appoint the next ones who will set our country back 50 years.
hold your nose close your eyes swallow your pride and Vote Against Bush not against the democrats.
there ia a lesser of two evils

[BL_Zebub]

60. As the resident expert on Evil, let me say that you are mistaken

Kerry over Bush is NOT a lesser of two evils, but a continuation of the same evil. Skull & Bones and PNAC to be exact. Kerry has voted lock step with the Bush/PNAC agenda so far, and his own campaign is advised by those who write that agenda (i.e. Will Marshall). As previously mentioned, Kerry voted to confirm dangerous right wing judges such as Scalia, so even believing the Supreme Court will at least be safe with Kerry in the White House is not certain.

Wouldn't it be far better to have a nominee who is NOT tied to these fascist criminals?

[NightNurse]

51. And so...

:puffpiece: :boring: to sleep.

[SnohoDem]

56. I am a Dean supporter

and Kerry is not my second choice, but if he wins the nomination I will vote for him in November.

I liked Paul Waldman's explanation to Buzzflash of why the Republicans win elections. If we intend to beat the 'pubs, we have to realize that we can't always get the candidate we want, but if we're not in power we can't do much to improve the condition of the country.


From http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/04/02/int04010.html

BuzzFlash: The goal of brand identity is to sell a product that’s predictable. So if you buy Kraft Cream Cheese in Philadelphia or you buy Kraft Cream Cheese in Los Angeles, that Kraft Cream Cheese tastes exactly the same. The Republicans, who are much more into advertising and business, tend to see politics as the selling of a product. There’s a Bush brand, and they’re consistent and they respect hierarchy. If this is the way we’re supposed to sell Kraft Cream Cheese, this is the way we’re going to sell Bush. We all stick to the consistent message points. Democrats and independents, by their very nature, value diversity. And so it’s a little harder to come out with a branded image because the very nature of diversity goes against the very concept of what makes branding successful.

Paul Waldman: Yes, but you know what? If you actually get deep into the Republicans, you find a lot of diversity there, too. And you find a lot of competing interests. The Libertarians are different from the conservative Christians, who are different from the corporatists. But they understand and appreciate power in a way liberals don’t. I think part of what it means to be a liberal is to have an outsider mindset. The liberal heroes are people who were pushing from outside the system -- people like Martin Luther King, the women’s suffrage movement, the environmental movement. These are all cases where people from outside the system pushed the system for change. Republicans understand that you make the greatest strides towards your agenda when you have power. Let’s not say Democrats, but liberals are not completely comfortable with the idea of power. When power’s on the line, Republicans say: We’re going to put aside our parochial interests, and we’re all going to get behind this guy, because even if he’s not 100 percent of what we want, when he’s in office, we’re going to be getting what we want. Right now, there are thousands of committed conservatives who are working every single day to undermine the values that liberals and progressives hold dear. If you want to see our agenda advanced, we have to get hold of institutional power. You can’t do it without it. Pushing from outside is necessary at times. It’s necessary at almost all times. But you also can’t do almost anything without somebody in the position of authority to make something happen. And that’s what Republicans understand.

[Norquist Nemesis]

65. Me too. And in the end, Dean said he'll support whoever

the nominee is. I'm not ready to jump a ride on the Kerry bandwagon. Don't think I will ever be. But I'll still vote for the Democrats' nominee in the general selection er... election.

After that, I'll think good and hard about ways to be involved in changing the party (hopefully) with Dean at the forefront.

[Eurobabe]

63. where'd you get your avatar?

I want one too!

[maddezmom]

67. here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=344567&mesg_id=344567

thanks to incapsulated and WesDem. :)

[duvinnie]

68. Really wish I could vote JK

but won't.
Here's basically why:

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0217-06.htm

[wabeewoman]

69. There are at least 3 kinds of Dean supporters

1. ABB who will vote for anybody but bush. Many of these who started with Dean were convinced by the dem leaders and media that would be Kerry not Dean.
2. Republicans who liked Dean's plain-spokenness and fiscal responsibility but haven't made the leap to Kerry. Personally, I know several of these and I really think they will stay home rather than vote for bush.
3. Dean supporters who were virgins to the process and are going to have a hard time leaving their first love. There were SOOO many people at caucus's who were in this category. The big question is whether they will go back to feeling they can't make a difference or continue the fight.

I think Dean will offer us a way to continue the fight even if he isn't the nominee.